as Paul Vancoman, the board attorney. Um, thank you for joining us. I am Nikki George, the board president, and I'll be conducting the meeting this evening. We'll go ahead and hop right in with a discussion on the USBA leadership academy debrief that some of our board members and our um business administrator were able to attend this last weekend. So, we wanted to give a little bit of review of the takeaways from the conference and um I will go ahead and open it up to those in attendance. want me to go? Sure. So, >> it was a really good conference. Um, one of the things I really liked was the I guess keynote speaker from the president of Snow College and she has talked about how innovative they are and how they're on the cutting edge. And she said that there's a couple things that they're going to do now new at Snow College and Solid Community College and probably other colleges. And one was that they're going to start moving from knowledgebased skills to soft skills. I thought, oh, that's portrait of the graduate, right? So, and then I got to remember other three. The the second one was remind me what the second one was because oh, it was move into technical skills. So, um they're going to provide more things like J-Tech. And I thought, wow, we lead the way there. And then the third one is they've heard about this new thing out called AI and they were they were gonna start really pushing how to use AI at the college level and in all three areas I just thought these are not just things that we're doing but these are things that we're leading the way and it was just so really cool and I did go to the AI course also with one that they presented which was also kind of just fun um because we are kind of leading the way in in every single one of those aspects. But yeah, great conference overall. Learned a ton. Um, I'm just trying to think of if there's anything else. Just really good. Some good leadership and I just really liked meeting other board members and talking to them and and seeing some of the things that they're they're struggling with, too. So, that was my big takeaway. Her her talk was great. Um I my biggest takeaway was um how I well this conference um increased the um how much I feel um it would be important for our board to do a board self- evaluation possibly every two years especially now that we have um our strategic plan and portrait of a graduate and I hope that we we can do that and the Utah State Board of Education has um a board self evaluation on their website and um Nicole McDermott, the president of Granite School District, she talked about board retreats and how um the Sean Warick talked a lot about the board self-evaluation, but then when Nicole talked about board retreats, a lot of the um their board retreats involve talking about the board self-evaluation, how their board is doing, how they can improve. And I I just felt like that's a really good model for a board that wants to improve in how we serve um all of our stakeholders. Um so I hope that we can look at that as something to do is the board self- evaluations and really effective um board retreats. and I'm not every year but every other year. And I also really liked Linda Hanks. These these three um board members spoke in ed talks which were the short short like a TED talk but about education. and she talked about navigating political landscapes and how to develop meaningful relationships with other other representatives, other elected representatives. And while it it's things that I already knew, it it a lot of it was things that I needed to be reminded of to make a better effort in cultivating a a micable relationship with with our um other elected representatives in the district. And I also really enjoyed Todd Hober. He's the he's another business administrator. He spoke about the WPU WPU funding and I I mean I thought I understood the WPU, but it was so indepth and clear. I I I really appreciated learning more about the WPU, how it is more like a factor instead of the the amount for every student. It's a factor for like a situation or something. I don't know if that's the right way to say it's the formula. Anyway, it was it was really really good. I am so grateful that I was able to attend this conference. I feel like I learned a lot and came um like ended the conference more motivated to be a better board member and um push for board self- evaluations so that we can um find ways that we can improve our services board members and our effectiveness. >> I'll go next. Um, I'm really glad I was able to go. I was hesitant at first just because it was over a weekend uh for my son's birthday. Um, but I'm really glad I took the opportunity to go. I learned a lot and appreciated USBA's focus I feel like on their um, now I can't think of the word, not their catchphrase, you know what they focus on. Building better boards is what USBA is there for. And I feel like they did a really good job of um emphasizing that in the classes that were provided. Um I will echo uh Lisa and Daryl in some of those things and uh my main takeaways were just having effective board practices. Um board code of conducts and handbooks were mentioned. You know, do you does your board have those? How often do you review them as board members? um having uh self-evaluations for board members and the board as a whole. I really liked I think uh that would really help us uh focus in on focusing on students and our strategic plan and portrait of a graduate and also just making sure we're aligning ourselves to um these characteristics that we are encouraging our students to have. Um they talked about board cohesion. I really liked that and that it doesn't mean that we always have to agree, but it does mean that we have respectful disc discussions and, you know, stand behind the majority vote, which I feel like we do a pretty good job of. Um, and having board retreats, I think, would help um help us have more board cohesion. Uh, and just, you know, tuning into, uh, what we really want to focus on um here in Jordan School District. Um uh there was a class that I really liked about building trust with our stakeholders uh being the first to communicate to the community and parents and uh when there's issues, but also when there's uh positive things in the district. And I feel like um we do this really well with uh trying to communicate with surveys and open houses and going to SEC meetings and the supercast and highlighting all of the positive things uh in JSD. I really appreciate that. I learned a lot about the WPU as well. I think I need to learn more because it was it's a very complex formula, but it was really good. Um, but I especially loved meeting board members from other districts and there was a lot of districts, small rural districts there. And I met people from um, San Juan and Grand and Garfield and Dagot. And I just loved hearing how they are navigating uh public education with their handful of elementary schools and their one middle school, high school combined and how they are still just so passionate about their students. Um but I loved meeting those other districts and it was really nice and I hope you all enjoy the photo that's on uh board books. I did. >> So, are we just picking one or can I >> You just b as much as you. >> Okay. Okay. >> Set it all out. >> As a I try to be a good accountant. So, I took all my notes in Excel and uh I have 121 lines of notes. I have 19 of them that I chose. That might be good. I'll try to make >> Yes, we are going to midnight. >> It was It was very uh good. I was very glad to be there. A great presentation by uh Davis School District Board on some items in that class. They did mention some things like a code of ethics they have and a couple of books that I also have. So, I just figured I would bring them in case a board member wanted to borrow them. They talked about them. I brought all my other books, too, if somebody wants to go through those. Um, uh, I was quite pleased. A lot of the code of ethics, code of conduct things are contained in our ends policy. So, I was I was quite happy about that to see that there was a a good connection there between the two. We may call it something different, but um let's see. Um talking about handling problems and uh referring things to staff to to resolve problems. I liked an analogy they provided in one of the classes about ownership and uh customer service was very good. Um, the state superintendent gave a presentation and I thought it was quite uh fascinating. I didn't take as many notes on this one, but I missed the areas, but she said that Utah performs better than uh all the other states except Massachusetts and Department of Defense schools. Uh, which was great to hear. Um the legislative auditor's office came and they presented and oh so some of some of the board members that weren't there. I got a copy of that report for you. So that that's there. President George asked me to be sure you got one. So that's why it's sitting there. All of us got one at this meeting. Uh fascinating read. Uh, I will say that when I first heard about this and got it, I was less than enthused, but after uh reading it was quite pleased. Seemed like a a decent document. >> John, >> what does that mean that Utah performs better than Mass than all the other states except Massachusetts and DoD? >> I wish I had more notes on that. Well, well, recently a lot of those reports have come out that we're in the top 10 or 11 and math. We're second as as a state. So, we're getting like outstanding marks in our outcomes. Um Todd Harour, the business administrator at Granite School District, phenomenal gentleman. uh very good at his job, very good with legislative issues. a excellent presentation on the W how that works. But I also very much enjoyed um his helping to change my paradigm on some of other people's views and why uh some uh feel that things are good or good enough or uh change is not needed. um as I may feel like there's much more change needed. Uh and then last the ed the ED talks um great comments about the board retreats and opportunities for training uh and even service opportunities and reflection on board meetings and maybe self- evvaluating and redirecting how the board uh functions. I thought that was interesting. uh because it it wasn't a I mean some of those topics you may think about are a little little more serious in nature but uh the districts that were presenting these indicated that it was quite um quite good for their boards and it was good opportunity to be together and do something together other than uh kind of the agenda item typical agenda items that we would have in a board meeting. And I thought the training opportunities was a an excellent idea at that point as well because there's a lot of mandatory trainings and things that board members need to do. So maybe those could be handled at that time. A lot of good information was shared. >> Thank you and thank you to each of you who took the time out to attend. Um I know that that is a sacrifice. I hope that it felt worthwhile. Um, I learned a new word when I attended and I'm going to attempt to pronounce it, but it's paridolia. Does anyone know what that word means? Who wasn't there? It might be because you haven't ever heard it pronounced correctly yet, but um, it is the ability to look at an innate object and see something else. And so this particular conference was held in Bryce Canyon and there were many examples of rock formations that gave us an opportunity to look at it and see, oh that looks like a face. Oh, that looks like a crown. Um there were opportunities everywhere. And um that application was made that that is similar to our work as a board that as we move through our experiences in schools, in the community, in the world that we have opportunities to really see something different, ways that we can affect change in the lives of students in Jordan School District. And so a lot of the time that I spent, I was trying to think about, well, what's the takeaway? How does this apply to my board work? And how does this apply to um the way that we can change our practice to become better? And I I have I will echo many of the things that were brought up. The first one is change the way that I look at the way that we are funded. So, um, Mr. Hopper, who's already been mentioned, who spoke about the WPU, mentioned something that helped me to see from the perspective of our legislators, which is that they fund education. 51% of their budget goes to education. That is the highest percentage of any state. So, while we like to say, "Ah, we're the bottom per student," they're saying, "But we're the top in our budget." And so, I thought that can help me in my interactions as I try to advocate with our state leaders to understand the way that they are viewing things and maybe um appreciate a little more the blessings that we are receiving instead of always seeing the places that I would like to improve. Um, I also attended um one of the sessions that Molly Hart, our new state superintendent, put on. It was funny because it was slated as a Q&A, like a um an opportunity to ask her questions, but I came at the second, so she had just taught one session. I came in the next one, and I feel like she just picked up the last question and kept talking about it through the whole thing. But one of the things that she was really trying to highlight is how datariich our state is. And so she was helping us to navigate the OLAG website where you can look at specific school scores and rather than saying this is how you stacked up compared to um other schools in your district or other schools across the state, it it tries to filter out and compare you to similar schools in terms of demographics. and um and her hope and my hope was that that would be a usable tool for schools to be able to say, "Okay, well, I'm not that different from this school and yet my scores are quite different, so maybe I could learn something from them." And then open up communication. And um one of the applications that I wanted to bring back to our district was a conversation about um maybe receiving individual school reports allowing some principles and and of course this would be something we would want to iron out details on. But to come in and say when we received this data here's how we took action on it. here's how we made data for informed decisions for our school and then allowing the board to help support those decisions. Um, another one that just seemed to resonate with me were multiple sessions that talked about either and as has been mentioned we call them EN's policies. Many boards have a board handbook or one that I really enjoyed was a board code of conduct that was a single page document. So quite concise. Um and it looks like Mr. Larson brought his copy with him if anyone is interested in looking at an example. I also have one with me. But that was something that I thought could be a benefit to our board for us to really be able to hone in on the wise of our board work and how our actions are contributing to accomplishing our goals. Um, and then of course I also really enjoyed the conversation on the board retreat with opportunities to talk about board assessments. I learned a little bit more about the Utah School Board's board assessment. It's a tool that's available, certainly not required, but one piece that is intriguing to me about that is if any of you know Richard Stole, he is probably one of the kindest and and most softspoken people I've ever known. But after you if your board chooses to use the USBA tool, then Richard Stole compiles that data into a report and he will attend a board meeting and um talk about the results, opportunities as well as successes. And I thought that was an interesting idea. And I thought certainly if someone was going to point out my blind spots, I would like it to be someone like him. He is a an amazing man. So, those were a few of the things that I hoped that we could discuss as a board um possibly implementing. So, um out of curiosity, is there interest in looking at revamping a board retreat with some specific goals? >> I have interest. Can you tell me more of what that would look like? >> Yeah, absolutely. I actually have some notes pulled up. So, this was a presentation that Granite did. So, I'll just tell you a few of the things that they include. This is where they focus on strategic planning and goal setting. They do a debrief on the school year. They review committee assignments. Um, they work on team building and relationship building. They address complex issues, align and re-energize the board, and then um one thing that I really love about theirs was they make it a service opportunity. So, at all of their board retreats, they bless a school with their time there and I really love that idea. So, those were a few of the things. So, when we talk about things like team building and relationship building, I think that's a great opportunity. So of course we would come ahead of time having done a board self assessment and then an opportunity to kind of hammer out um therefore what right? So what can we do implement that would improve our work as a board based on that feedback >> and this would be a full day at one of our schools most likely. >> I think that is likely. We do have some rules that um are defined in law. So it has to be within your district boundaries but their recommendation was to go somewhere outside of your normal meeting place. So they have talked some of the places they have done were alternative district buildings, community buildings or working with business partners. So, I could um really see having a project set up with JF and going over to the new JLC building and maybe creating something for schools in that way. That's just a really obvious off the top of my head, but I think that could be a possibility. And I don't know if you mentioned it, but one a couple of the things that I really liked that Nicole mentioned um were part of their retreats were the um a debrief on the school year. Um and I think that's nice. every board member can kind of speak their piece on the school year and addressing complex issues and anyway I anyone so >> so and just by way of history our board has traditionally had a board retreat this is the first year at least in the time I've served on the board that we have not um but over time our board retreat had kind of morphed into uh we'll meet a few hours before our regular meeting and it started to evolve into something that felt a lot like a good excuse for a longer board meeting. Um I think that is maybe why we ran out of steam this year. And so I think in order for a retreat to be an um a successful experience, we need to have some intentionality. Um some specific goals that we don't address at a regular meeting, but something that we return to every time. I thought Mr. Larson's ideas of maybe checking some things off of the is it called power up now? I keep getting behind on all the names of the board certification program, but um things like that that are a little different that help us actually to complete something that's on our ever growing task list. So, that's something I would really like to maybe um form. I the way that I thought about it is I wonder if we could form an ad hoc committee that would prepare um a board retreat and include some proposals on board self- assessment options that then they could come back and present to the board. Um, and that's just one pathway forward, but I wanted to gather interest on the idea. >> This is an open meeting. Is it recorded? Is it all? Yeah. >> Yeah, it's noticed and recorded. I know it creates some complexities, but I think >> we did it at Compton Park once. >> Yeah, I was going to say I think once Mr. Dunford as president held it in a park. So, somehow they managed to figure out recording and and it worked out. We did a self assessment and that me morning's meeting was how do we who am I? How do I operate and how do you get along better with me? >> Yep. >> I as I was elected but not sitting yet, I went back and reviewed that meeting and it was one of the most helpful meetings that I prepared for my position on the board with. It was a great retreat. So, I was just going to say it it does depend on what you're doing at the meeting as to whether or not it needs to be whether or not it constitutes an actual meeting. So, there are ways it just depends on what you're doing. If you're just sort of doing general um selfbuilding exercises and you're not dealing with any relevant matter that's going to come before the district, it's not a meeting. But, you know, if you're talking about specific issues and so just just be aware you have that option. I was thinking about our awesome ProStart programs that we have at our high schools. Like what a fun opportunity to get treated and and maybe highlight a a few students at the same time. There are a lot of ideas rolling in my head, but I'm only one person. So, >> I'm open to it. >> Okay. >> I'm also interested Is there a go ahead, Bryce? >> I'd love to see it come back, but the problem wasn't desire or fatigue. The problem was scheduling. >> It got to the point where this board just couldn't find time in the summer to be together. >> And maybe summer's the wrong time. We could consider that. The problem with it regular year though is we all have jobs and so well maybe not everyone but I do and uh but I'm not saying that I couldn't work around that you know but there it adds a complexity. I I think if it's important enough we'll figure it out. >> Maybe we do it for a shorter amount of time if schedules don't permit more time. It would have been good we canceled meeting last time. It would you don't want to throw it together but I think there's time even in our regular schedule if we can plan our agendas correctly. >> This is an interesting year because this is if I understand it Anthony this is the year we switch from the old ends in terms of evaluation of the superintendent to the portrait of a graduate new ends. Isn't April the switch? >> Yeah, I think it'll be next year that we I've had a full year of portrait of >> Okay. >> Okay. >> But that would be that's a major transition to walk away. We've been evaluating the superintendent on this standard and now we're going to evaluate him on this standard. Can we one of the reasons one of the main motives for that meeting in the park was that was the very first meeting with Superintendent Godfrey >> and we wanted to include him in how do we work together who are you how do you operate what's your mode of thinking how do I work with you and then give us a vision of where you want to take this district and that was one of the best meetings I've ever attended >> for that very reason to hear from a superintendent saying here's my vision of where we're going. So, it would be an appropriate time at some point as we transition ends policies. We've made the switch, but he is not being evaluated by them at this point. At some point, he's going to be evaluated by the new ends policy. Be nice to give him a moment to say, "Here's how I see the switch from my perspective." >> That's a great point. >> I can put myself at the exact picnic table and exact spot on the bench. I remember what you were wearing. >> Yeah, >> I'm I'm open to discussing a a retreat. I was just thinking Yeah. I I don't know that I've been involved in one. Have I the last three years? >> No. >> No. >> Well, we did the one at the elementary. >> Yeah. So, you would have done one. Do you remember? We had like a popcorn bar. >> I do. Okay. Okay. >> So, one maybe. >> I remember that one. But but as far as these ideas of evaluating ourselves and how we can work together better, can someone give I I think we work together pretty well. Can someone give me some examples of what other districts are struggling with or or what what are some possible topics that we might discuss? >> Personality styles, decision making styles >> also. I I think um when I I've gone to Are you talking about like board self-evaluations or so I've gone to several um classes at different conferences I've gone to about board self-evaluations and um I have not looked at the USBA one but the first class I went to the first year I was on the board that got me really jazzed about it. It had a lot of um a lot of just how how each individual board member felt about a bunch of different things and then how that board member thought the board reacted to different things. And some of those were um what priorities out of a list of priorities the specific board member had, you know, like um special education and then more specific questions about that or behavior and more specific questions about that. and just it the the data that came back was um very it it was interesting because then boards can see are we aligned in this? Do we all feel the same way about as I mentioned before um this aspect of special education? um then is that is our feelings about that aligned with what we're actually doing as a board? Does that make sense? So it and then that that seemed very helpful to me. It just kind of distilled what a board really was hoping to accomplish kind of versus what the board was actually doing. if that anyway. So I it it seemed very helpful to me. But >> so I think of it similarly to doing our evaluations for superintendent and business administrator. It's not a katcha. It's a check-in um a review. Well, let's be specific. How how do I feel we're doing here? Here here. And there's a list of topics. Um, and then maybe we don't know what we don't know. You know, we might think things are great and we might be sitting next to someone who is leaping frustrated, who feels like they haven't had their issues heard. So, that's kind of the idea behind it. Did you write down the Christy Sweat quote? >> Oh, >> you quoted it to me right after. I was like, did she write it or not? >> It's in my other notebook. Anyways, it was just something to the effect of, you know, and one of the most effective things that we can do as a board is be open to recognizing. I always I'll always wear my blind spot pin, Dr. Godfrey. That's what I I think of all the time is, you know, what are my blind spots? What are the things I'm doing that I don't realize? So, >> I can just speak for myself. I think that, and Bryce and I have been on here for a long time, I think there's been times on the board that where we're going and what we were trying to accomplish was a little bit more crystal clear than it is now. And I don't know if it means that those were critical times that we had to be crystal clear because we were making some huge decisions or or I mean I I feel that we all work really well together and we make good decisions and that but I don't see that we're I don't see it as clear as I saw it in the past and that could be my fault too. So maybe that's what I'm missing. I I don't know how to explain it, but and Bryce might feel different, but >> So, let me ask is is the best way forward to have an interested group form an ad hoc committee um and then come back with a proposal for what a board retreat could entail, including whether or not we would want to look at some options for self-evaluation um as well as a proposal on dates and content covered like an agenda for a board retreat. >> I would be interested in helping with that. >> I would too. I unless somebody else would be more interested. >> Great. I'm also interested obviously >> and honestly I feel like wherever wherever an individual is in their life there is always room for improvement and always space for self-reflection and reflection on the group they are in and how can we improve how can we move forward in a better way so I I think Even if a even if that group or individual is doing an excellent job, I think there's always some room for improvement. And I I think that a self- evaluation and retreat could help us set some clear goals individually and as a board. >> Okay. So, >> one more thing. Oh, please. There used to be somebody on the board that was really kind of didn't like the word retreat because it does make this idea that we're going to Hawaii >> with a drink. >> We're going to Hawaii or something. And some taxpayers kind of get nervous with that word, but I don't know if there's a better word we can come up with. I love like strategic planning or strategic planning meeting or something. Retreat to me and the board member I'm talking about is me. But um retreat seems like we're going to Hawaii. Hey, we're going to sit around the pool and talk a little bit. And this is a strategic planning meeting. I don't know if it matters to anyone else, but it does send this message that we're going to go have fun instead of go to work. But anyways, >> maybe the committee could also come back with a title proposal. >> And if I'm the only one that feels that way, then I'm okay. >> No, I think it's great. >> I agree. Ask what retreat is going back, too. We have to stay in our district, so there's not that many great Hawaii places that go. >> We could go to Daryl's backyard, which is almost as good. >> No, not quite. But anyways, but >> all right. >> Strategic planning or something. I think you guys can figure it out. And if it's ends up with retreat, I won't object. >> Okay, great. >> Can I make a motion? >> Sure. >> That we form an ad hoc committee for the purpose of defining the agenda of our board. retreat and possibly coming up with a new name. Uh members of that committee being Nikki, Lisa, and Aaron. >> I'll second that. Okay. We have a motion to form an ad hoc committee including um Miss Dean, Miss Barrow, Miss Miss George that we um this ad hoc committee will work to create a board meeting and a name for said meeting as well as an agenda for um a board retreat. That was a terrible summary. Did y'all get it? Okay. All in favor say I. >> I. Any oppose? >> Okay, we will go ahead and get that going. Thank you. Okay, let's move on to agenda item 1B um with Mr. God, Dr. Godfrey, substitutes for extended counselor absences. >> Thank you. H I just want to talk about the possibility of extending substitute eligibility to counselors who are absent for 10 or more days. Last year we had 11 counselors in the district who were in that situation either for FMLA or for parent leave. And what we find is that for less than two weeks you can kind of cover as a team. At the elementary level, you kind of get by the best you can because you don't have other counselors. There's only one per school. Uh but when it's an extended when we're without a counselor for an extended time, then that becomes it becomes difficult and there's a there's an accumulation of needs that that go unressed otherwise. Currently, we spend about $5 million per year on teacher substitutes, and this would cost up to $100,000 a year to add counselors. We looked over the last three years, and there was anywhere between $50,000 and $100,000 in cost um if we or there would have been had we provided a substitute uh for the extended absences. So, we haven't done that to this point for counselors, but because it would hit the uh six figure mark. There's not a specific like we, you know, sometimes we spend more than five, sometimes, you know, we we've spent more and more actually because every year the the rules have become more open for teacher leave. Um, so it's not whether we overspend the budget or not. It's just whether we are willing to take on that additional cost if we allow for additional substitutes to be called. These would only be licensed counselors who've retired or, you know, who who have those skills. So that's the proposal is that we consider making that change. >> Any questions? John, do we ever hit the budget and our substitute budget? I know we budget a considerable amount. Tell me in the last five years, have we gone over, gone under, come close to hitting that budget. Where how much wiggle room do we have here? >> That that budget is reset every year based on um >> there's a formula, right? >> Yeah. And then we're looking at past history as well as the projection of the current year as we're amending the budget. So, we amend it. So that as you get to June, you're meeting where it goes. So So we're >> How close has the amended budget been to the original budget? >> I'd have to go back and look at those. Pretty close. >> You don't off the top of your head. You're not thinking that there's a huge discrepancy here. >> No. Would the substitute counselors fill the full scope of what counselors do that are on leave or would they just do part of it? Meaning they would still do individual work, not just group work. Would that be the intent? >> Yeah, they'd still do individual work. Um there are uh most of these longer term absences would be planned. uh not all but most would be and so you can kind of hand the baton on some on the individual work and also there's a student coming in in crisis and now there are five people to help instead of four you know or eight rather instead of seven and and so yeah they they they do all of the work of a counselor and they would be paid like a teacher substitute would be same amount >> where do we pull them from where are they employed Normally, >> some of them are substitute teachers. Some of them um >> counselor credentials. >> Yeah, they've been teachers before. They're counselors, you know, they retired. So, but we would actively recruit retired counselors to to to substitute. Can I weigh in on I think I think what's being proposed actually matches up quite well with what's in this document as well as with the strategic plan and trying to help students in various ways on um wellness but also helping teachers in their in their role. uh we constantly hear back the great help the counselors are for teachers as a student needs special help. So it I think this meets quite a few targets that the board is looking at. The strange thing is just the need for it to happen earlier than June. I'm very supportive. >> I have a couple of concerns. My first one is I feel like a counselor has to be such a spring of knowledge of things that are very new. So, I hope that when I visit with my children's counselor that they understand current programs that are happening so that they can help my child to academically succeed. I'm nervous whether they'll have access to that knowledge. Hopefully, they could go out and collaborate with the other counselors that are not on leave in the building. But that's my first one. And then my second question is about confidentiality. um where I want to make sure that we're following all of the um complications of working with a student on mental health issues like understanding how to communicate with parents and keep open windows of communication and then also understanding the sensitive nature of those kinds of consultations. Are those all things that could be specifically trained? How how could we protect those really important elements that counselors are responsible for? >> I think those are important questions. That's why we would have a group of counselors specifically to um people who have been trained as counselors acting as substitutes only. and we would have to catch them up on some of the things that we have available and what some of the options are at the secondary level. At the elementary level, uh we'd have to catch them up on what it looks like to be an elementary counselor because some of those substitutes may not have been an elementary counselor since we've had that position for such a short period of time. But we have all of the counselor specialists, the four counselor specialists who are assigned to each area of the district. and if there's going to be an extended absence, I think that they could jump in and provide that one-on-one training, not just on generally what we have going on, but also the specifics of that school because they're very much in touch with each of our counselors. So, I think those are areas that we absolutely need to address with each substitute and that's why we're not looking at a substitute coming in for one day here and there. This is something that is most likely not just two weeks. It's going to be six weeks or longer and we'll make sure they're well prepared for that in all aspects of that confidentiality and everything else. >> As someone who's missed a little bit of work lately because of some family needs, I just saw the toll it took on other people to cover for me. And I think it's really important that we have we already are stretching our people to the maximum and without having them there, it really does take a toll on others. And so I I'm totally supportive of this. >> So tell me specifically what we need in order to implement this. We need to motion to provide the funding. >> You need to make a motion to authorize the administration to provide a substitute for counselors who are absent for 10 days or more. >> It just it just expands eligibility >> more. But >> yeah, >> 10 consecutive days or no >> 10 consecutive days or more. Thank you. Yes, 10 consecutive days or more. I hear a motion. >> Make the motion just as he said it. >> Second. >> Okay. So, we have a motion uh that we provide a substitute for a counselor who will be gone for 10 or more consecutive days. That summarize it. Motioned by Dr. Robinson, seconded by Mr. Deford. All in favor, please say I. >> I. And any opposed? Great. Motion passes unanimously. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay, let's move into our next agenda item, the enrollment forecast and housing continuum discussion. This is one of the most anticipated days of the year by people across the district and especially in this room. So, as we welcome Mr. Hamlin and Mr. Fest to the table. Um, allow me to do that with gratitude for the intense amount of work that has gone into this presentation and we'll turn it over to Dr. Anderson. >> Thank you. Now that we've set the bar sufficiently high for meeting expectations, we can move forward. This is a an annual report that we come to the board uh each October with. After we've done our October one counts, uh, I want to thank in advance uh, the work that Mr. Fon has put into this. puts the planning into planning and and enrollment and has crunched numbers and and under the direction of of our director, Mr. Hamlin. So, thank you uh to both of these gentlemen for this work. This uh this really represents a continuation of a lot of the discussion we've been having over the last several months about our enrollment trends in the district. I think you'll see a lot of things that we've discussed already reinforced with numbers and it's an opportunity for the board to ask questions about trends. It's an opportunity for us to really zoom out and look at it from a 30,000 foot view. This presentation will also be um basically two parts to this presentation. And the first is the enrollment forecast report and then coupled closely with that will be uh this will be the first time we do this report but uh if you'll recall a couple of months ago uh the board set forth some uh some trigger points some standards in which we'll evaluate uh enrollment growth or enrollment decline in the district. So we'll we'll cover both of those aspects in this presentation. So with that um thank you again and uh Mr. Fine, take it away. >> All right. Well, thank you. Um, next year I will change the cover of the document to have a Christmas bow on it since every so much. Um, just um, thank you to to Dr. Anderson, support from the administration on on this work. Um, this was really what I was hired to do, uh, was to to keep tabs on enrollment trends and how they impact the school. So, this will be the presentation of our um five-year forecast of enrollment. Um I'll present um present this. Everybody has this document in their board docs. Um gives a a detailed um more detailed data on each school uh grade level um information. Uh there's a an addition that we made this year with uh with the graphs with the the capacity line so you can see where where each school >> architectural or current use capacity. Sorry, >> the line on there is current use capacity. >> Thank you. >> So as as um you have in your um capacity workbook. Um that's the the value that we put in there. Um so let's get on with this. I always like to use this um this slide at the outset of all these presentations just as a reminder that there is a inheritant inherent uncertainty with forecasting. Um our methodology is very sensitive to recent trends um which some of them can change re relatively quickly. Others um are very very slow to change if if they change at all. But we do these these forecasts every year so we we can keep on top of these trends so that we can see uh see these trends evolving. We get better data. We get more refined data every year. when we get data from from um the cities with the the building permits that they issue, we get birth data from the the state department of health and human services. We get econ we watch economic data, economic trends and how they all impact the the numbers that you're going to see. Dr. Godfrey kind of kicked this off uh at the last meeting um with a with a short discussion about these these trends. I want to share this graph with you. This is from um the Gardener Policy Institute at the University of Utah um who I have worked with uh since their inception. They're responsible for producing the long range population projections for the state that are used for as a as a consistent uh base for all planning and um and economic and budget work uh throughout the state. So there's one one data set um for these these applications to to use. This graph here shows the the school enrollment uh from 1960 through60. Uh the the gray columns are the the historical uh enrollment what actually showed up. The red columns are the projected uh enrollment um from 2023 which is when this document was was produced and the black line there the on the downward trend shows the share of the school age population relative to the entire population. So you can see uh that uh that we've had some some change there. you know, back in the early 70s when I started school. Um, school age population was about a third of the of the population, but now was dropped down to where we're right now about 20% of the population and forecast to fall even further down into the 15%age u percent range. um to you know just we're going to have fewer customers for our product I guess in in marketing terms uh going forward. So we're right here in 2025 or the blue arrow where uh we're just coming off of the peak of this uh of this age wave. Um these are are you know the the cycle about every 30 years 20 to 30 years. It's really just the the generations coming into into childbearing years uh start to have kids and so the you know we get a a bump in the the school age population. We're just coming off of that of that peak and forecast to continue to decline um for the next 10 years or so to about the mid the mid 2030s. So you think about our our fifth and sixth graders now, you know, where will they be in in 10 years? Well, they're going to be married and starting to have children of their own. That's when we're going to start to see a turnaround in the in the number of school age children in the state. The second component that I wanted to talk about is uh is housing affordability. Um so this is uh this is data from the Federal Reserve. This is the average 30-year mortgage rate uh for the last 10 years. Um so you can see that sharp increase in in 2022 as we came out of the the pandemic. Um but it's been relatively stable since there's a couple of parts here that I want to point out. So in in these current, you know, current conditions, the recent past, um interest rates been higher than they've been recently. Um and this impacts things like construction costs, uh borrowing costs for um those who are looking to buy a house. Um especially young families uh who are you know we we depend on uh moving in to continue um to to fill our schools. It also impacts the ability to to move to move up move out of your starter home and into a into a larger home. The second part is is this uh time frame back just post pandemic um when interest rates were down in 3% range. Um this uh the those who who were able to get a m mortgage at this time, they're really hesitant to move. They don't want to give up their 3% mortgage for a 7% mortgage uh just to to move house to buy a bigger house. Um, and this really leads to a a drag on existing housing stock and being able to buy an existing house. Uh, so if you can't afford a new house and you want to buy an existing house, there's fewer and fewer of those on the market because there's hesitancy to to sell. Now, I threw this slide in here for some context. So, the circled area is the graph we just looked at. Um, this goes back to to the early 70s. um you know back when interest rates were were uh 17 and a.5%. Um so looking at this our current interest rates are actually really more closely aligned with historically what has been the average. So the what can we take from this? We can you know things are going to change. Um but the we may we may be here in this new normal for a little while uh just as that that trends towards towards the average. So one of the other pieces of data that I look at um and I look at this every single week um I always look forward to Friday mornings when I get my building permit report and see how many uh how many building permits have been reported um by the cities. Um you can see that orange line up up up you know up pretty high um up until the end of the pandemic about the time interest rates went up our current residential building went down. Um so right now we're tracking about 850 or so units under construction right now and that includes a couple of um apartment complexes apartment buildings um in the in the district. But most of this is um is centered in really three areas in um kind of there in the mountain ridge area um West Daybreak and then the Olympia Hills development in Haramman. Um those are really the three pockets of of growth we we have going currently. We've got some in in the western part of West Jordan in the the terrain development. Um and branch around Analopee Canyon Elementary, but for the most part it the building is is slowing down as well and has been for for a couple of years. The other port part of our input data is how many children were born five years ago that are going to form our uh our kindergarten incoming kindergarten classes. Um we get this data by zip code from the state department of health and human services. U we have eight zip codes in our in our district. Um the one on the far left, Copperton has so few births that this year they actually redacted the data. So, um I put that put it on there for uh for context and for um completeness of the data. Um but looking at the other uh zip codes in our district, um most of the areas are uh going down as far as the total number of births that are occurring um to to in families in those zip codes. Um just a point of of clarification in 84095 which is the the second one from the the right with the two tall bars. Uh in 2016 that zip code split to form 84009. So those tall bars are combined 84095 and 84009 which are is the second one from the left. So I always get the question what happened there? So, um, but you >> looked like a little bit of a jump this year. >> Uh, overall it was it was a little higher. I think we were up about, um, 150 births this year over last year. But we're we're actually, as far as total numbers districtwide, we're staying fairly stable even with the the population growth as a whole. So, our the 200,000 or so folks that live in our district now are having the same number of children that the 100,000 were having 10 years ago. >> Does this just factor um birth or are we seeing um students are we losing them to charter schools or homeschool or is that factored in there? >> It is. Thank you for for asking that. Um we we track the number of births and we also compare that to how many ch how many students show up in our kindergarten class five years later. >> Okay, >> for a long time that was steady at right around 80%. Over the last two or three years has dropped down to right around 70%. So we we're we're seeing these these students well we're not seeing them we're seeing them not show up. Um they go to charter they go to home school. >> Do any of those kids trickle back? Are you seeing any trickle back? Cuz I know with my own kids, they seem to want to homeschool for kindergarten and first and then they realize how hard it is and they come back. >> Yeah, we haven't seen any real appreciable numbers of that. We thought maybe after the pandemic we'd see a bunch of first graders show up that weren't in kindergarten, but that didn't materialize. We just aren't seeing appreciable jumps that that we could that we could pin on that. So if they are coming back, others are also leaving because there's so many more opportunities to learn in different ways. >> Thank you. >> Yep. >> So it was 80%, now we're at 70. >> Now we're down around 70%. >> 70 >> 70. Yep. It was 17, we'd be in trouble. >> I I thought you said 75. I thought it was better. >> Okay. Yeah. 70. All right. So what I've just shown you sets the the table for for these next slides. Um, so I'll present these numbers and then turn the time back to Dr. Anderson to walk you through the the individual um individual schools that uh that we have talked about. So here are the district level enrollment forecasts for the next five years. Our October one number this year was 55,373 and we are forecasting that to decline to 52,788 in the next 5 years. The the blue portion of the column is our elementary schools. The red is middle schools. The green is high schools. So I did the math there for you. um forecast to decline 1137 in elementary, 877 in middle, 566 in the high schools for a total of 2585. >> That's the growth we used to get in two years a years ago. >> Yeah. Yeah. When I started this job, that was that was the growth we were having. So, and just back at the envelope math that was that figured about 99 classrooms worth of students. So, one last graph I wanted to share with you. Um, and this is um really the reason that we do this work every year and put the effort into into producing these numbers for you. Um, these colored lines show the the last four years of forecasts that we made. This really indicates how sensitive this our our work is to to recent trends. That that light green line, greenish yellow line uh there at the top is the the numbers that we produced in 2022 um or for the 2022 school year. Um you can see that it it really did mimic what was happening in the three previous years just a a growth um you know year after year. The other green lines and then the blue line and then the red line is this year's uh forecast. You can just see as that um that orange line which is the actual enrollment uh peaked and started to decline so did our forecasts. I think what was instructive for me in this graph is just in 2022 that light yellowish greenish line was taking into account the previous three years which would take you to pre pandemic. uh the pandemic changed all of the rules and you know put the box and dumped it upside down and and so it changed our our forecasting data and the metrics there and that's why you see the the gradual decline which again um it just reinforces why we have to do this every year because each year we've been able to make modest corrections and modest adjustments in in how we approach our enrollment and that helps so we're not being drastic after you know if we let it be for three or more years. >> This there's a there's a section of the orange line toward the end there that for example that that light yellow or green line. >> Yep. the the distance between the orange line and that yellow line as you follow the orange line out is basically saying this is how far off we were in 2022 right in in those out years. Yes. >> Yeah. And so in 2022 2023 even 2020 the up until the blue line we were forecasting an increase even though it was still decreasing. Is that right? >> Yes. >> Now the the blue line and the red line are indicating we're we're forecasting a downward trend. >> Yeah. >> Correct. Yeah. Hit the peak and now even the forecast is showing that if you look at the beginning point of each of those colored lines and compare it to the the same point on the orange line. So 2022, that the yellowy line, the distance between the that the beginning point of that line and the orange line is really how far off we were for that first year of of the of the forecast. And you can see as as we've gone forward that that point gets closer to that orange line. The issue with the 2022 forecast is that was the first one we did after the pandemic and we really had no you know all of the the trend data was was skewed because of what happened during the pandemic. The the massive number of students that checked out to go to home school. We didn't have any idea how many were going to come back or when they'd come back. And so so that you know I'm going to put an asterisk next to that line because of because of that. But you know I feel like we do a good job with these numbers. We do these every year and I feel like we get better every year. Really the purpose of of this data is to to give this body as the decision makers for the district good data to make good decisions on. >> Yeah. Please don't take my comment as a as a criticism of the work. I I understand forecasting is >> difficult. >> Um but let's take that that middle green line just above the blue one, >> right? >> What is it about that forecast that that made it not accurate basically? I mean did we did we overestimate the number of well I mean we had the birth data. Did we did we overestimate that that would continue? What what aspect of the of the process wasn't wasn't accurate? >> Um can I can I go back a couple of slides >> to answer that question? So when we did that that um that forecast, see if I can get my cursor up here if you can see that. This is about where the the residential construction was sitting at that point. we we really hadn't started to see that downturn yet. So, the the forecast was saying this trend is going to continue. We're going to continue to build. We're going to continue to have lots more students coming out of those new built homes. That's the that's the driver for the the upward trend in that line. The blue line was done when after we had bottomed out with the with the residential construction, the new homes and and so that that impacted the the district level forecast pretty pretty um severely. Yeah. So, I I guess the my my takeaway is we have the most current data we can get and we we have to make educated guesses as to whether we think this is going to continue. Is that is that kind of the the general assumption is that the data we have now we're assuming that it's going to continue like this. >> I I I think we have to you know >> you can't guess whether let's let's assume that birth rates are going to triple. Let's assume that housing Yeah. You just have to assume it's going to be >> even if the birth rate is tripled, we're not going to see that for 5 years in the in the school enrollment. Yeah. So, it would still be, you know, at the end of these of these forecasts. I I think the the bigger issue is, you know, the the thing that could um skew these numbers is if suddenly interest rates were to decline, construction activity picked up again and and housing prices became more affordable. I can speak to more of that green line. I witnessed it happen and that was our yield re our yield rate dropped because as the cost of living increased the people who were buying houses weren't bringing children right >> we saw that at Aspen Elementary we anticipated a lot more students than we got and when we investigated it was because the people who bought the homes that we knew were available had fewer children than our yield rate had traditionally been. So, we can't predict a yield rate going down until people start buying homes and we see what kind of yield rate we have. And I know in 2024, that was a real thing that we were anticipating those homes being purchased and they were purchased, but it brought fewer children. >> Yep. And and we're still seeing that in Aspen. In fact, you're going to see that in a couple of slides. You know, we I I can't tell you how much time I spend pouring over yield rate data for Daybreak. Yes. And you'll recall we we contemplated at that point we were contemplating a a new school in village 13 at the time. This trend data helped us move away from that decision because we saw we saw what the trends were doing and and uh I think you'll see in just a little bit that that would prove to be a good thing. We'd be dedicating a building we might not need. >> Yeah. >> Dedicating it and closing it. >> Yeah. >> That's what I think. >> And I think we'll eventually need it. But >> I think that's what's striking >> we're saving 1.3 million a year. >> Go ahead, Suzanne. >> What's striking to me to see this is just in a couple years time, we've seen a downward trend. And how does that impact the decisions we make as a board or as a district to adjust to that trend, assuming it's >> Well, look how it's a very different approach. >> Look how quickly it turned. And theoretically, it could turn up just as quickly. >> And you have to >> and we're making 10-year projections. We're making guesses about 10 years out. >> And we just have to be ready for both turns, I think. Right. And I think that's strategic business boundary decisions. Still preparing to build schools and waiting for it to turn back up. >> Property >> having the property, having some ideas of where they'd go. I've I've I've been working with the the developer out at Terrain and they they send me a quarterly report of what kind of families have purchased homes out there and we've we've got a handful of of homes out there occupied already and some of them do have have students, you know, but it's early days yet and we'll we'll see what they what what comes out of out of that. And then the ivory developments out that way are also >> around around Analopee Canyon. Yep. They're students out of there >> because that's the one that I see popping up faster than terrain. >> Terrain is moving a little slower than they had anticipated. I think um just what what what I've observed the the homes there right around Analopee Canyon, you know, they're they're they're getting going. They've just approved a new phase um in there. The city has. So, you know, we're this is >> Olympia Hill seems to be going pretty quick, though. >> Olympia is going crazy. >> Every time I drive by it, I do it daily. There's another >> one of the things I think that we have to make sure that we we look at too, as you look at that orange line, for years and years, we thought one house equaled children coming into schools. >> And while we have houses, that that narrative has changed now in a very real way, as Mr. Dunford pointed out. >> Yeah. But still new builds are where the kids are, right? >> There there are still students coming out of the new builds, >> but we see >> most families buying new. >> So are other districts seeing even more dramatic decreases? >> Yes. >> They don't have the growth that we do. >> They don't have the growth. Our are our our sister district to the east and our district to the north are both uh in the middle of studies to close multiple schools. Hope they don't close the one they just >> Salt Lake City has done the same. Um it'll be interesting to see what happens to to Alpine when their split is complete. But you know there are the established areas where we're not getting new builds and people can't afford to buy buy there. Those are the areas that we're we're seeing declines in our in our student population. And Dr. Anderson's going to get into that a little bit. Um and and in your in your document, you can look at those those schools and see see what's happening. Our large sixth grades, our fifth and sixth grades are are leaving our elementary schools and not being replaced by a comparable number of of kindergarteners. So, we're we're seeing that across the district. Our largest classes right now, I think, are ninth and tth grade. they're, you know, they're going to move through the system and and we're just not, we don't have a steady supply. >> We're not only seeing that trend in Jordan district, other districts are seeing the exact same thing in Utah and across the nation. >> Yep. So, it's a national trend, not just a Utah trend. >> Correct. Yeah. And and in some aspects, in many aspects, it's a global trend. >> Having children later and fewer children. >> Yeah. It's interesting. I I don't want to get too too nerdy because I get way into this way too deep because I stuff. Um but but the United States mirrors is just a few years behind Japan's population pyramid and so we're mirroring them just we're behind by about a decade from where they were a decade ago. So, it's just kind of interesting to follow those trends and patterns. >> And I can just put a personal note on that. In my own household, which you know is representative in in our district, from the time that line begins to trend downward, within that time period, we will have gone from a household of six to a household of two and with no kids in the system. And so, I think that's it's just typical of the trend. >> Mr. Fest mentioned earlier a marketing term we don't have enough customer we don't have if you're customer product >> and I can and I can see from a business perspective that it would be a negative if you are getting fewer customers for your product right what are the negatives uh from a school district's pers perspective if we fewer students. Obviously, as that tend as that goes lower and lower, we we're closing schools. >> Uh but why I I get the feeling that it's just like a terrible thing that we're that we're going to have fewer students. >> Yeah. I don't I I can speak to that and feel free to chime in, but I think one of the one of the challenges you pointed out is that now what do we do with our our building? We've been in this this mode of growth for decades and building schools and building schools and now we're at a point where and we've seen recently how difficult it is when we have to have discussions about u consolidating schools or closing schools. Those are the challenges that come but there are other things that come along with it. I mean now we're if we can have an opportunity here a period in which we can rightsize things and you know we we see um if the overall student population is going down the positive side of that is that we have a stronger teaching pool there are more teaching candidates out there from which to to select from that can be a positive thing um there's there's more opportunity in that in that regard >> I I think the reason that you hear us keep talking about it in the tones that we have been and the reason I spoke about it as a precursor in our previous meeting is because it's so different from what we have been talking about to this point. So it's just making sure that it's clear that the paradigm really has shifted and our situation has really shifted. There are definitely positives to it. Um and you know not needing to build as many buildings is one of those positives. But we also have the budget continually increases when you have more students and there are more choices to be made. So more opportunities for change sometimes and change because of growth is I think less painful than change because of a reduction in enrollment. So it's it's just to make sure that we're shifting our thinking because we've been become so accustomed to growth over the years. >> I wonder too just thinking about families if we have fewer students they have to go further to reach their school or we have to provide busing when we already have issues getting bus drivers. So, some of those things come to mind, not immediately, but down the road if the trends continue because our families don't want to go further. They want to go close to home. >> My um dental plan is really happy to pay for me to go to my six-month appointment and less happy when they have to pay to fill a cavity. And so I just think that speaks to prevention versus treatment. And I think if our board can shift the idea of a strategic plan means how are we going to grow to how can we best prevent problems in the future? How can we best treat these problems? And I think we see that reflected in some of the boundary discussions that we're having. how can we make the best um roll out? So maybe we're aligning feeder systems, maybe we're making sure that our school numbers are more balanced. And so I do think there are opportunities here for prevention. And um it's just a mind shift to to say, well, we're not doing anything. It feels that way when you're used to doing everything, but now we're we have to think of a new strategy as a board. So, and that's I mean probably the next slide. What do we do? >> And and that's that crystal clear that I had early as a member of the board to this fuzzy thing now. It's that we've changed paradigms and I can't clearly see what we need to do in the future like I used to because it used to be easy. We're building a feeder system. There'll be new high school and middle school and these are the years we're putting them in. And now it's like I think this is going to happen but I'm not sure. Isn't it funny? If your um past self could hear you say that was easier, >> it would have been blown away. >> Yeah. One other thing, >> blown away wanted to mention along these lines was you mentioned that at one point there was there were 80% of the newborns that we would see when they were when they turned five. >> And now it's 70%. And that was perceived as a negative because we're losing students to competing programs, homeschool and charter schools and private schools, whatever it might be. I don't like the idea of competition among government entities. it. Competition is fine in the in in the in in the public square or excuse me in the private when you've got companies competing for dollars for products, but competing for students in public education or or viewing it as a competition maybe. I'm I'm happy that students are finding education opportunities in their home and at charter schools and other. I don't I don't feel um angry or whatever. >> But they created this as competition. That's the words they use is we want competition. >> But I don't like that as a board to view it as a competition. >> That's how it was designed though. >> That isn't how in in my mind that's not how it should be. that we should be grateful that we have multiple educational opportunities, choices for the children of Utah. So, I don't like >> the idea of a competition really wasn't to pit one against the other, but we want to raise our standards so high that people choose us. >> That's the competition that that they want and what I want. I >> But but viewing it as a negative from 80 to 70. Oh, that's that's bad. We're not doing something right. I don't know. I just didn't like that. So, Brian, one thing that I think about that is um while I'm very happy and I want every student to have the best educational opportunities for them when um I think that usually the students that are choosing or not to come to public school are frequently the least expensive to educate. Whereas the most expensive to educate students um generally do not have the same opportunities to choose the charter school or families not might not be able to accommodate those students in a homeschool setting. And frequently private schools um don't educate the most expensive to educate students. And so I don't view it as a competition. And like I said, I love that there are so many opportunities for students um to receive the best education for them and families get to choose. It still means that um public schools still have the most expensive students to educate with possibly fewer dollars because the least expensive students are not coming and so the funding from the state does not follow them to the public schools. So, I'm not trying to compete, but sometimes I do feel a little wistful about losing public school students because it comes with some loss of funding where we still have some very large needs. So, I'm not trying to compete, but I do feel wistful about it sometimes about the funding. >> I've been concerned about that as well. I reached out to a few legislators on on that specific topic. So I I think the solution to that isn't here. It's >> Can I ask >> So that's why I might not always be 100% positive about losing students if that makes any sense. So I'm not feeling like negative about it, but I feel like Oh. So >> can I ask if you're seeing these trends also trickle into the charter schools? are they decreasing population because the population is going down too. And I asked that because we're at risk because we have to save them seats, right? So if we have some charter schools, especially big ones that go under cuz they're seeing this, then they're going to have to ship them all over our way. So do you have data on that? >> Do not have not um have not seen anything on that. have >> charter schools are understandably reticent to share enrollment information with us. >> It's not public information. >> And the second question I have is okay, back in the day it used to be like uh communities would age out and there'd be a few years and then they would die off and then they would regenerate themselves. Are we seeing the regeneration of any of those communities? cuz it seems like a lot of our districts are closing a lot of those schools that would have probably they would have hung on to cuz that 20 or 30 year regeneration. Is there any data that way? I >> haven't seen any any data that way. What we are seeing more of is especially in those areas where um you start to get multi-generational households >> or multiple uh multiple family households starting to see anecdotal data where where there's a lot of doubling up, tripling up of families in homes back to that affordability issue. And you know, those homes at one time probably would have been sold to a family that looked very similar to the one leaving and you know start to that cycle over again. But we're not seeing that right now. >> Interesting. And if you look at the first couple of slides we shared with the statewide data, you are we're in a trough or we will be in a trough until about 2035 and then it'll start to pick up and those are basically our current seventh grade current middle schools uh students when they start to have families will around that time is when we'll start to see it statewide pick up again and I think we'll see that trend in the district as well. The difference is we still we have growth that will still sustain our our numbers a little bit. a lot of um a lot of land for for development and you know like President George said we you know we still do see students out of those new build new build homes just not as many as as we used to. >> Okay. This this discussion has really helped uh set the stage for what we're going to talk to next. And it's it's really um I commend the board for forward thinking in how we're going to address enrollment considerations for growth and decline. In these next couple of slides, you'll you'll recall the two documents on the slide. We've got on board docs for your reference, but these were passed or approved back in August. And they are two mechanisms for how we look at schools and how we decide whether or not we need to take potential action on a school. And there's a form it's formula based on both of them. And we take the the current enrollment and then we we plug in our development and yield rates and our forecasted growth or and if that's greater than um the number the capacity of the school plus its portables, then we it's expressed in a formula that we look at and we reviewed. And these documents outline what the district staff's role is and then what the what you as the board's role would be and then where does the facilities committee come into play with that. So encourage you to reference those and reme um just a reminder that we have mechanisms in place for both um capacities that exceed or that are below established thresholds with this. So today if you look at this the consideration steps we have identified schools that exceed or are below the the thresholds that have been established by these documents um as a district administration cabinet's met and identified schools for potential action. What you're going to see tonight is step three where we are showing you the enrollment forecast data for schools in the potential action list. And before we go on to the next slide, I just want to show you that or just remind you that the schools that we see on the list, there is nothing there is nothing urgent about taking action on these. It's not something that we need to act on right now. You'll see this is why we do this. These are the trends over the next five years. And within the next five years, the schools that are on this list are going to hit either the the growth threshold or the or the diminishing thresholds. And so there's no need to to worry too much tonight. This can this discussion will um the discussion that we need to have tonight is what to refer to the facilities committee for further consideration. Um some of those are already outlined by policy. We have a policy for school consolidation and closure. That's policy A13. And in there it outlines exactly when the facilities committee must consider those those uh schools. So with that, we'll go to the first the first slide is our potential action list. At the elementary level, there is one school in the growth side and then there are several on the decline side as you can see. And this is our uh what we've taken from the watch list and turned it into the potential action list. Growth side, we have Aspen Elementary. No surprise. We just talked about them recently. They're in a high growth area and will continue to grow for the next couple of years. Although you will see that they are still for the next couple of years below their their capacity on the decline side. You see uh several schools in the west uh the eastern west Jordan area and you'll see some schools in in the Riverton area. So we'll take a look at those individually. If you have any questions or you want any clarification, please feel free to hit pause and we'll we'll >> Can I hit pause and ask some questions? I think better at this point than later. >> Absolutely. Um, Analopee Canyon came off the list, Sunset Ridge came off the list, Haramman came off the list, Black Ridge came off the list, Butterfield Canyon, Foothills, and Ochre Hills all came off the list. Is that because of the change of documents? They don't now meet the criteria of the new documents or is that because of changes at those particular schools? I think I think the answer is both because the the documents that we've created are formula based whereas before we were kind of just watching trends and and bringing to the board's attention some maybe some things that stuck out to us and surprised us. And so that was what constituted the schools to watch list. Now it's based on a formula. We had schools that that that were on the watch list that we as cabinet talked about and vetted and looked at their their trend data and where they'd be. And we felt at this point this year, Aspen was the only one that we needed to put on the potential action list in the next couple of years. So the schools you mentioned have been on the watch list in years past, but after we looked at the data and used the formula, they're just not they're not in this a point where we would need to take potential action in the next couple years. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. >> And are all of the schools that met the threshold are listed? It's not like well we took the worst five or the best five or >> all of the schools that that are on this list are this the schools that we've taken from the potential watch list to the action list that that we have to list. So there are this list was longer but after looking carefully at at what what the trends are and what the surrounding schools are doing and and where the growth or decline looks like these are the schools that we felt we would bring to the board for consideration. I'm just curious about Analopee Canyon because it seems like Analopee Canyon is worse off than Aspen. I'm curious why you took Analopee's not on the list and Aspen is. >> Analopee has zero portable. >> Yeah, Analopee is much closer to its capacity line. >> They hit capacity in two years. Aspen hits capacity in three years. See you have 13. >> Yeah. So the for Analopee Canyon that that gold line is their use capacity which is 300 below what the actual architectural capacity of the school is. So with some internal changes that the principal could make as far as room usage. um they can increase that capacity without adding a portable there, which would get them back up into their normal what I would call a normal capacity number. >> Had a question about uh I feel like which one is it? Uh I was confused by why Rosund was on the declining uh list because like I took the 65% below percentage that we've got on that >> and they don't seem to be meeting it at all for the next few years. So I was just curious why they were on the list. >> Yeah. So the the way we we calculate that is within the next five years of their trend date if they are going to be below 65% in one of those five years that's how they made the list and we put that on there just to illustrate they're not it's nothing that we have to take immediate action on but in that area that pocket of Southland and Rosamond and and Rose Creek there's just is something to keep in mind over the over the coming years it's more just a an awareness >> okay >> and what's the Southland you may just answer any little program. >> Yeah, thank you. The carrot on there is because Southland has a dual language immersion uh program. And then you'll notice the asterisks. That means it has a district program there. The asterisks are those schools that meet the threshold established already in policy A13, which means they will in the next 5 years uh for they're forecasted to fall below 50% of their architectural capacity. and the schools surrounding them which many of these touch each other are below currently below 65% of their architectural capacity. That's in policy or has been and and that's why they made the list with the asterisks. Those are things that need to be by policy referred to the uh facilities committee. So if for instance Southland doesn't continue to carry their dual language immersion, they could >> if Southland Elementary didn't have a dual language immersion program, they would likely be in the they would have an asterisk next to their name because they would fall into the the 50% below 50% category capacities document. I'm not finding it. >> Have we pulled it? I don't think we've pulled it off the not finding one. >> I don't think we've >> main website. >> We've not made any changes to it. >> Yeah, >> I've lost my link to it. >> I'm looking at the one right on Oh, I'm looking for the shared one. The Google Drive. >> Look into that. I don't know where. I don't think we've Mike, can you help me understand with the net out of boundary students? Tell me more about that on I'm sorry, I'm looking at some of the school data when it says, you know, negative 77 students >> that that constitutes the number of kids permitting out of the building versus those that come in. When you net that, there there are some kids that may permit into that school and then there are some kids that may permit out of that school. The net is means that there are more kids leaving the school for permit reasons than are coming in. >> So they're permitting to another district school. >> It could be a permit to Yeah. another district school. It could be a our virtual schools that they permit to. So that's the net u what's the right word that we're looking for? Just the net migration out of the school. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, >> Mr. Did you find it on board book? >> I did. Thank you. I had just misplaced a link and it wasn't in my Google Drive. Yeah. >> So, can I ask just I ask this every time you come in. I'm sorry, but when we say architectural capacity, that is how many classrooms we could fill with students. >> And then when we talk about current use, that could potentially mean they're using classrooms for a music class that later we could move or they have portables. So current use could go up or down. Yes. >> But architectural capacity is just the building with no portables. >> Right. And and as a just to to add on to that for the formula that we use, the board uh approved the formula that says we take the architectural capacity plus six portables because that was what the board determined was an acceptable way. So when we when we these fall into that area, it's we're taking their architectural capacity plus six because that's what has been um that's where the growth side. That's why Aspen, you know, they they may not do they have six portables aspen. >> Yeah, they have seven, right? >> Seven. Yeah. So just a caveat there. >> You have to keep that in mind. >> Aspen has eight portables. But that's what's funny is we say six portables is the maximum acceptable, but we have more than six portables at many schools. >> Well, because we have 250 portables sitting around and can be moved. So that's what people are saying in my community is why do we have 11 portables when the architectural capacity the students there are less than that? But unless we're willing to move all those portables to why move it if we don't have to >> and they are being used. they're using for some pullout classes and stuff and so >> um and they're expensive to move. So I just told them hey just they'll be moved but >> enjoy the space while you have it. >> That is the good news of shrinking enrollment is we no long we can now >> we have five schools on wheels we can move around. >> Yeah >> that is brilliant that is so brilliant. >> I think that speaks to the prudence of of Dr. Godfrey not wanting to build any more additional portables since 2009. >> That's so good. We haven't built one and that is what's going to allow us to not close or consolidate as many facilities in the future because we have five portable schools. >> Taxpayers do not understand how much money we are saving with this. >> If we thank you. >> Yeah. If we're ready to go to the next slide. So, this is our secondary schools that we've that we've put on the potential action list for the board to consider referral to the um to the facilities committee. Joel Pensen West Jordan Middle and West Jordan High make this list. You'll notice that Joel P not only does it have a district uh program, it also has uh meets the policy A13 threshold. And we did see other schools um that were on there that could have made this list because of their their enrollment. But we also again we consider the trends. We consider what might happen with potential boundary changes. And we just didn't feel at this point that other schools needed to be on the the potential action list. But yeah, Joel P. Jensen is not is is on that list because by policy we have to refer that to the um facilities committee. >> They're also Alps, right? Correct. That's why here it is. Exactly. Yep. >> And then on the um we're going to go into each one of these slides. Now the graphs you see are also going to be on the document that Mr. Fest referenced earlier. We're just showing you why Aspen uh made this list because the maximum forecast enrollment is greater or will be greater than their building architectural capacity plus 6. And you can see Aspen at this uh this point in the school year is 800 or on 2025 is 811 students. The next couple of years they'll stay below that orange line which is their use capacity and then you know so we'll want to which is actually good news because we thought they'd be above the line this year. >> That's right. And we thought last year's band-aid was just we've got to do something now, but we're going to have to fix fix this next year. And now we're looking at two years out. >> Moving that pocket of 153 students to Bastion really helped Aspen for a couple of years and we're seeing that. So this is just the potential action list because we could we can look at solutions uh such as a boundary change. Aspen is adjacent touches one, two, three, four, five, six different elementary schools. So there are options for us to to look at Aspen and and reduce that enrollment um strain. >> It's hard because they so recently went through boundary change. >> I know >> it is hard. They didn't >> I mean we didn't move the ones that anticipated being >> we tabled that that that part of the decision we tabled and it's still >> it's not like we're moving them back. We just haven't moved all of them out that we intended. >> The question is when are we going to pull the trigger um on that because eventually you're going to have to move people over. >> Yep. >> South >> unless we're going to build a school and then close some later on. >> Let's not do that. I'm just confirming when it says 2025, that's the that's this year. >> That's right. Now, their current enrollment. Yes, >> that's the October date of Okay, that year. >> Yeah, I look over here my in the corner of my eye, but yes, that's confirmed one dates. And again, those are the those are the forecasted data numbers. So, not I don't know if we need to do anything this year. the I mean the the facilities committee can can decide what to do potentially for next year to address that. >> And when we talk about the facilities committee doing that, that's really coming to us to say boundary changes, building a new school, waiting it out. All of those options you weigh out as a committee and then bring them to us. >> Yes, we we would bring back a proposal to the board. Yeah. >> And that's outlined in the documents. So you can consider remod um for the declining it could be remodel it could be repurpose reconstruction changes to enrollment like permits transportation consideration boundary changes those are all on the potential list there and I would also point out that when we have these discussions if the me if the board member of Aspen say is not on the facilities committee the chair in this case Mr. Barnett would contact the board member representing that area to make sure they're in the the loop and and able to do so >> to be on that. So that's that's prescribed in these documents. >> Can I ask a tangential but somewhat related question? When we have schools that have DLI and like how many students are permitting into that school so that if it's not sustained over time, they may then leave that school and go to another one. Is it ever a significant number? >> It sometimes can be. >> It can be. >> Okay. >> You revoked a whole lot of permits for that very reason. Once >> we were going to move out 200 students and there were 200 students on permit. >> So we revoked those permits and didn't have to move them out. >> I see. Okay. >> And and some DLI programs, for example, have a greater percentage of boundary students than others. And so that's something we we would want to study. And >> so it's something we look at. Okay, thank you. >> Yep. >> I can just jump in. If you if you look on your in your document here at the tables, the the net out of boundary students, if if it's a large positive number, they they've got a a program. >> That's usually why. >> Yep. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you for pointing that out. >> Can I ask one more? Oh, sure. like as we take some of these declining populations, do we also have like um so I remember back in the old Jordan days we we were considering closing some schools and we had gone through and inventoried the I I don't know what to call this the quality of the building and how much we would have to put into it. Do we have that or is that something that back in the day before we combined districts that we did specifically for that? Does that make sense? I think you're referencing. Yeah, I think there was a committee that looked at that, but I think that's been replaced by our our facilities committee and in the work they do now. >> So now the facility committee would say, "Okay, here's three schools. What's the quality of the school?" And then we would go and look at, you know, if we're going to close one, >> right? You know, >> that would be an example, but >> close three and rebuild one or whatever. That's exactly what the facilities committee could look at and and talk about and then bring back to the board for for discussion. >> And do you mean like in AA13 where it says estimated cost associated with all short-term repairs, building lifespan needs over the next 5 years andor addressing the structural safety issues is greater than 35% of the estimated cost of building a new school. Is that kind of what you're talking about? No, it it was I mean when we did it, we we looked at a school that we recommended to be closed because the upkeep on the building was larger than all the other schools. And so as we looked at it, that was and they had a rating of every school. That's probably something they did specially for that. It was the mother of all closing boundary changes back then, but so that's not a current thing we keep, but something we could probably get. >> I've got a quick question on the net out of boundary students. Some of those numbers are in parentheses. What does that mean? >> That's negative. >> They're negative. Okay. Means they're going out of the school. More students are leaving that boundary than coming in on permit. I >> mean, they have a net outflow, not a net inflow. That was the word I was looking for earlier. I used migration, but outflow is better. >> I don't know. I liked migration. >> Um on the next slide then this. So, uh Aspen is on the potential action list for uh enrollment increase. On the decline side, we've got four schools in the West Jordan area. You can see the yellow line constitutes their current use capacity and then the blue bars are the next four five years of forecast numbers for those schools. Nothing drastic, nothing too um but it's something to keep in mind. A lot of these schools are contiguous to one another, right? And then this >> much nicer placement. >> These are the three schools that I referenced in the Riverton area. again, all below their current use capacity. Pretty pretty steady for the next 5 years of forecast, but we thought we'd bring them to the board's attention for potential um action. These are the secondary schools that fall in the decline category. Um, as we mentioned before, Joel P. Jensen meets the the policy threshold, but we thought we'd throw in also the the two other schools. Keeping in mind that boundary or current um that West Jordan High School is under uh construction. We've got, you know, will be for the next three years. So, things to things to consider and talk about in the facilities committee. >> I do have a question. I don't know if spot to answer, but I noticed West Bale was listed and that they have a number of students that permit into the school. So, they're decreasing, but have quite a few permitting in. Do they have a DLI program or do we know the reason there are so many permitting in? >> West Lind has an Alps program that would that would explain that one. >> Okay, >> that might be West Veil does not >> switch screens on myself. So, >> yeah, no problem. Is that what it was? Okay. So, sorry. >> Westland has Alps. >> Yep. Westville is our oldest building. >> It's native seismic upgrade. >> It's a great school. >> A great school. >> Not because of the building. >> We love the the West Veil Wolves. So, um that brings us to the conclusion of this presentation, opening up for board discussion. And uh this would be the point at which you have the discussion and then decide which schools the facilities committee should consider beyond the ones that already have to with by policy A13. I've given our next discussion Nikki I noticed that Sunset Ridge is off the list. Do you want to speak to that? Do you want There's the elephant in the room. Do you is there anything you want to say at this point? Because Sunset Ridge Middle School just came off the list and we're considering a boundary change to alleviate enrollment. We seem to be at odds with our two directions. >> For me, this speaks to prevention versus treatment. And I think this is an opportunity to pull schools into closer alignment, to look at feeder systems, and to do what makes sense because we have the luxury of doing so. And so, while I do think that Sunset Ridge is still at numbers that are uncomfortable for a school to be at its most effective, I think that there are other reasons to consider that boundary change. So, >> it wouldn't change my course at this point. >> I figured not. I just wanted to get that out there that before we left this discussion. >> There are other reasons to consider a boundary change, but it is significant that Sunset Ridge came off the list just as we consider a boundary change. >> It it is at 99% >> of its capacity plus six. So, >> it's close. >> Yeah. current use because Sunset Ridge has so many. You'll look at that graph and you'll see the orange bar above >> way above >> but uh the the architectural plus six they're right there. >> They're four student they're the only student that's above the architectural design by four students. So we put 11 portables to house those four students. >> I think they lost some portables recently. >> Mr. Hamlin was principal there when I think they had uh a baker's dozen. When was it at 15? >> 14. >> 14. >> Wow. >> Yikes. >> And that's People keep saying, "Well, it's not the highest it's ever been." Well, yeah, but when it was the highest it's ever been, we were in treatment mode. >> Yeah. It was designed for 1400 and we've got 16 plus. >> Yeah. Yep. which yeah, you can put a portable there, but you've still got lunchrooms and cafeterias and hallways and >> but if we were to take that down to six, it could fit the people pretty well, you know. >> Yeah, it could. But then we have other schools that are declining and losing opportunities for programming. And I think that balancing schools creates equity in the district. >> I agree with that, too. Okay, >> thank you. Always my favorite agenda item. >> Happy to be of service. >> I you can't I can't tell you how many hours I will now pour over this document. >> Good. And if you find anything, let me know. >> I usually do. >> Yes, we look forward to that. Can I may a ask something that's not related to any of So it doesn't seem like we're building a school in the future, but we have signs out in properties that we own a future school, the Jordan school district. And patrons are asking why are we not building schools if we have signs out there? >> Where are the signs >> in Daybreak? >> And we were. So, but I guess and maybe this is a a facilities decision or administration decision. When should signs go up and when should they not? >> But let's be clear, we didn't put those signs there. >> I don't know who put >> the developers neighborhood. >> We didn't put those signs there. So, we're happy to >> asking for a sign right now and we have said no. So, if we're saying yes to others or are they just not asking? Well, we were going to build that. We were going to build that school. And I think it's good to say, hey, we have properties for schools. I think people should know, yeah, we have a middle school here and an elementary here. >> Potential. I think that maybe that's the wording. I don't know what the sign says, but maybe we should be saying potential >> or that it's Jordan school property and no details beyond that. >> Yeah. And we just advertise. I don't know. I just was asked that by several people this last week >> on the parade of homes and been like, really? which is good. I want them to know we have properties, >> but it's not a future school until we vote school until we vote to build it. >> And I think it's a little bit misleading when you're buying a house with a big old sign that tells you you're going to get a school. >> We did clear come clear up to the vote on that. So, I can totally understand. I so I don't know who who should make that decision whether or not it's us whether >> I'll take care of it. >> Oh, that's my area. I'll take care of it. >> Bryce is taking it down on the way home tonight. >> Don't ask any other questions. He He's just going to take care of it. >> No questions. Just I'll take care of it. >> But look at his backyard. There might be some firewood. >> You could put in the form of the question. in my backyard. >> Will this be the site of a future Jordan district school? >> Just add those words in spray paint. >> Anyway, >> or just future in quotations could also work. >> Yeah, that's true. >> Future. >> I mean, I didn't see a big problem, but I was asked about it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I think it's missing. >> I had not even thought. So I guess the first question at hand is would we like to make some assignments to facilities committee? >> Just want to make sure they invite me when they spot to speak about Aspen, which I know they will. So no special action. >> So you're recommending that they start discussing Aspen now? >> Yep. >> Okay. Colia, is that something you'd like to recommend? as your school. >> What What do you mean? What do I want to recommend? >> Facilities committee take the assignment of beginning to examine options to um consider the schools on these lists. >> I I did not want to >> the ones with asterisks up there, those first four by policy, the facilities >> policy. We have to. >> So I don't know. >> Does it say have to? Okay. Okay. >> Then I misspoke. >> It doesn't mean that we have to do something. >> We have to necessarily but we have to discuss. >> Right. Right. >> And and those four are grouped together. They all meet the policy threshold which is again below 50% of their architectural capacity and the surrounding schools are below 65% of their capacity. So that's that's why we put the the asterisks on those. the other three we've grouped together that you know if you you talk about one it might be good for those to to talk about all three together as a grouping because they are adjacent to each other. >> I think what we're trying to decide is we want the facilities committee to talk about any of the schools up there that don't have an asterisk by them. >> Better stated >> I I think we >> Susan isn't it? Yeah, that's >> I mean I'm not I'm not feeling compelled to say look at Rosemont >> for any action right now. >> Yeah, >> mostly that's really dec declining but Rosemont and Rose Creek around it are just teeny but it's mostly Southland that's declining. >> Let me just ask a question of my fellow board members. What would drive you to say before it's absolutely necessary, look at my school? There's a cost >> if you don't if you don't have >> there's a cost efficiency where you get to a point where this school is not costefficient that we're paying teachers with you know and so you have to get you have to say to yourself look I don't want to close a school but I have an obligation to all of the taxpayers who are overpaying for this school to run >> without an asterisk >> because if we're asking that question maybe we should put an asterisk next to it and they don't meet the criteria and so your decision has to be at what point what where are we trend you just asked why we would consider that >> yeah I'm just pushing back a little bit on that >> add one more to that list and that is are my students receiving equal opportunities am I able to provide the same programming opportunities at a very small school where I'm already potentially supplementing FTE just to have grade level option choice uh for teachers. So there is a benefit to students to having a bigger school. It's just a fact. And so are we there? Are we not there? That's something to weigh in the balance. Could we provide more opportunities if we consolidated one school and built up the populations of two >> and rather than having board you as a board member might without an aster asterisk say let's look at that for my school despite knowing that your constituents will likely be up in arms. That's what I'm trying to >> They may or may not because one of the things we could consider is >> do we take one of those schools and tear it down and build a brand new one and clo so you take two build new one and they get a brand new school out of it and since we're not building brand new home ones for new ones this is the prime time to take old buildings and replace them with new ones and close the other school. Does that make sense to you? Yes. >> And so if if we wait till we start growing again and we have to invest all of our money into building all these new schools, then we can't do that now. And and I'm not saying we need to do that now. But is that something worth examining? >> So what this tells me in my limited experience is >> don't ask questions like that. Well, that I I ought to get a better sense from those who are going to Rosemont how they feel about it. >> And I wouldn't say just Rosemont. Look at those three together. >> Creek and South. >> Even getting a sense for how people feel about it will put them up in arms. >> Go to a lot of events. >> Lose lose lose lose lose. And and so so Suzanne, personally, I I want the board and the facilities committee to follow policy. >> Yeah. >> At the same time, I am not going to recommend some sort of I I'm not trying to get them to look at the schools in my area. >> By policy, we have to, right? >> I know. I know. But I am not the one asking you to do it. It is the policy that you are following. I am not saying look at these schools. You are following the policy. >> President may be unfair for me to begin with a board member's affected. Any board member can recommend this to facilities and get a group recommendation. Um, so maybe that's unfair and Miss Wood, please know it's okay to say not right now. I need to do a little more >> to understand the nuance that I don't have the experience for yet. And because I'm not hearing from anyone at Rosamond concerns about it, my inclination would be >> I'm not concerned yet unless somebody changes my mind. >> I think that's a fair response. >> That's probably the best way to say it. >> Thank you. I'm not concerned yet, but I'm aware. I >> I'm glad to be aware because it puts my radar. >> And that's why we also clump these these areas together because you can see that they're they're similar trending >> as opposed to I'm very concerned about Aspen. >> I am very concerned about the future of Aspen Elementary. >> And I am too looking at the numbers. >> Okay. So, >> thank you for the education on that everybody and your input. I I I hope you don't feel pushed. You just said what would lead you to say it and that was the only reason we were giving reasons. >> I know. Thank you. >> My personal approach I feel like especially with these areas is to first look at our boundaries, right? And if we can just kind of adjust and then help send a few more students and even it out instead of something extreme. So I would go for the most minimal but beneficial option. That's how I would look at it. So my question would be why would they come up on these concern ones without us studying it? >> Well, that's why it's on the policy. That's why it's on the policy. It's not at the recommendation of a board member. takes pressure off of everyone for the policy to say once a school hits this. Then facilities committee looks at it, explores options rather than say, "Okay, board members, we want you to look at schools and recommend which schools we should look at." I I I >> I personally think we should look at all 11 and look at and explore like should we do boundary changes? Should we cross district bus? Should we rebuild the school? And I guess I don't understand why we're not if they're coming up because next year the my guess is next year this will come up again. So your view is talk about it early so that when we are maybe more compelled to take action, we have a better sense of what that action is. >> So as I look at the secondary list, I think that we are by the documents that we voted on compelled to have Joel P. Jensen considered by our facilities committee, but I personally think it makes a lot of sense to consider the whole that list as a whole. I think that those dominoes will probably connect. >> And we're not having that conversation for the first time. >> No. >> And for those listeners, this is based on projections or the forecast for five years from now. It's based on what do we anticipate over the next five years. So that >> we've been talking about four or five years >> to Nikki's earlier point that we're looking ahead. So when you say yes, we're referring it. It's really not any moment we'll be taking further action. Action means referring it to a committee to look at. So it's very preliminary. It's based on it's based on information for the year 2030 just to put anyone at ease that's listening. So that's helpful. I think my view would be anything that hits the list asterisk or not. Can we just say automatically the facilities committee looks at it rather than asking for a poll or like it's just what they do. I'm okay with that. >> I think that's how the policy was designed. >> And just to reiterate, it doesn't mean that the facilities committee may come away and recommend anything at this point. They may study it out and and consider boundary changes or other changes to the programming at the school or whatever. And at this point, they may they could come back and say, "For now, we don't recommend anything." It's it's all outlined in the in the document as far as what they could consider. >> I'm comfortable with that as a matter of routine. >> I'm very happy to take Haramman off the list. I can't tell you how happy I am to take Haramman High School off the list >> for now. >> For now. >> Enjoyed that rest. >> Okay. >> So, just to clarify, we we Are we referring all schools on this list today in this presentation to the facilities committee? >> Is anyone opposed to that? >> Great. >> Got it. >> Got it. And you'll let board members know when you're discussing their schools. >> Could I clarify that? >> I think there's a priority here. I think those three in Riverton are much less of a priority than the West Jordan ones. And so I would say you get working on the highest priority ones first, knowing that you may need to take a look at these later. I would not want I would not want them to be all treated equally with your limited time. There are more urgent ones that would demand your time and then when those are solved, we can move on to the less urgent ones. I think there is one on the list that demands urgency more so than those three. >> I would agree. >> Yeah, >> we have a plenty of time. We're going to have a building uh facility retreat. >> Go sit around Daryl's pool. >> But you're right, Bryson. We've been talking about that for years. >> And I do think overcrowding is more urgent, generally speaking, than under enrollment. >> Well, they're all important >> since we don't know when that will strike that match and that field pops up houses overnight. >> Thank you. Good discussion. Is that the end of your I don't want to rush you. >> That's a non-verbal cue. We are ready when you are. >> Not drinks soda. That's when you know. Okay. >> We should probably Could we take a break? Maybe. >> I was just going to suggest, can we take a 10-minute break? >> Okay, perfect. >> About to conduct. Welcome back to the study session for the Jordan Board of Education. It is still October 14th, 2025. We still have all board members, superintendent, our associate superintendent, and our board attorney in attendance. Our business administrator, however, had to step out. Okay, we'll continue with our agenda. Um, we are on item 1D, survey results for potential boundary changes. Uh, and we will turn it to Dr. Anderson. >> Thank you. Uh, this is, uh, for information only tonight. there won't be any decisions made, but uh this is the these are the results of the boundary survey and outreach efforts we've made tonight. And so just to get right into it, uh just to reiterate where we've been so far, we have put a survey. And when we say survey, typically we think of like okay, it's rank choice or you can you can uh you can indicate which boundary option you prefer. There's a preference involved in this particular set of surveys. these two in this case, the board opted to just put out an option for consideration and for feedback. And so when we say survey, that's what we mean by that. And when you see the responses, um, for example, we sent a parent square notification to all impacted students and all 10,000 plus non-impacted student homes. We received 351 responses in the Midas Creek area to the survey. By responses, we mean that they went through the survey, they looked at all of the pages and the data, and then they actually clicked the button submit to indicate that they were done with it. So, 351 responses or engagements. That doesn't mean there weren't more people looking at it, but 351 people actually hit the submit button. Um, out of those 351, we had 180 uh post comments. And the board has received all of those comments along with a a summary of the comments for each area on board docs. In the northwest area of the district, we sent likewise required by law, we sent uh parent square notifications out to the impacted students and the non-impacted students. You saw the you see the response rate there of over 900 along with over 200 comments. Uh, new to the law this year is a requirement to have postcard notification mailed. And so we also split this up by impacted versus non-impacted areas. The reason we did that was just not to to set alarm bells off for all 15,000 people that we have to notify. We sent it to over 15,000 housetops, you know. So 14,970 of them got a notice that says, "Hey, we are considering a boundary that impacts your school area. However, you do not live in the impacted area. And then the other 1,200 or so that got postcards said, "We're considering a boundary change for your school boundary and you live in an area that's potentially impacted by this change." That's just to differentiate and hopefully alleviate some concern off the right off the bat with people that that hear of this. We have held two open houses, one in each area on consecutive nights. We had a a modest turnout at both of them. Um combination of of patrons and and parents, students came in both cases and they were held at Midas Creek Elementary in Copper Hills. The timeline that we have and the next steps we'll take um after this meeting tonight, uh our next board meeting uh the business meeting will occur on October 28th. There will be a period of public comment required. We're required to hold two comment periods, one of them being a public hearing, and that is slated to be held on November 11th. This weekend, if you subscribe still to the paper version of the newspapers, you will see um you'll see in the local newspapers a a public hearing notification that is required to be published in newspapers as well as a hard copy that is required to be posted in all potentially impacted schools. We're also I I've heard we are also going out to our public libraries to post on their bulletin boards. Is that I think that's correct. So that's part of the required notification by law for a public hearing. The difference between public comment and public hearing is in a hearing um you have to notice it differently and you must hear everyone that comes to comment on those on that night whereas public comment can be cut off at a certain time point. Will we also be using our own resources like Parent Square to get that word out? >> Yes, thank you for that. We'll remind people of the upcoming opportunities for public comment and both of those. >> We can still limit the amount of time they take, but we have to listen to everyone. >> That's correct. Y whereas with the public comment, we can cut it off at 45 minutes. >> Okay. And then that opens the door for potential board action. The the the board meeting following that. Of note, you'll notice that there's only one week's difference between the public hearing and the uh next board meeting due to the Thanksgiving holiday. Um we're going to get into the feedback. Uh again, this is all posted on board docs. This was sent to the board um last week. So, if you have any questions or' like to put us on pause at any point, please do so. We're happy to talk over uh any of this. The summary um that we've generated from this with the help of of AI in some cases is that the comments represented an overall sentiment in the Midas Creek area for support for the boundary changes. The a lot of comments represent or recognized that we were striving to keep students together in their middle school and high school feeder system. For those not aware of this area, there are currently Midas Creek Elementary students go to three different feeder systems. they go to the Haramman feeder system, the Mountain Ridge feeder system, and the Riverton feeder system. This is an effort um after feedback from the community to consolidate those three feeders into one and would move the Midas Creek area to Riverton High School. Um the concerns that were raised in the comments are over distance. Um in some cases, it's a little farther to Riverton than it would be to Haramman and and Mountain Ridge. um and then the commute time and some busing um transportation that for students that elected to stay at their current schools. This boundary proposal is also unique because the board has proposed a an opportunity for any student in the Midas Creek boundary to stay at their current school and school feeder for the remainder of their K12 experience. And to clarify, they can remain on permit. They'll be guaranteed a permit for those schools in their current system, but that does not include transportation, which a lot of people alluded to in the comments, and we have some representative comments on this screen. When we break it down by area, you can see the map there. We refer to area one with the red circle. There was an equal measure of support and opposition to the boundary change. Again, expression of support for the concept of keeping them together, but the concern over the loss of busing for students that elect to stay at in their schools. In this case, area one feeds into Haramman and Copper Mountain Middle. And there also is a a lot of concern over the impact on extracurricular activities and sports both prechool and high school. And you can see the representative comments there as well as many others that were listed in the in the document we shared with you. Moving to the east area two. So can I their concern about the effect in sports boils down to the fact that some kids might go and some kids might stay and the kids that go are being pulled away from the kids that stay. >> Yes. And for instance, in the uh youth conference, the youth little league, the pre high school leagues for football. Currently, my understanding is that they use the high school boundaries as a strict um that is where you would play. You you wear the uniform for where your high school is geog geographically oriented. There's no exceptions in there. So there's concern over that that it would it kind of disrupts that neighborhood because you you currently have three different high school programs within the Midas Creek elementary boundary. >> I talked to a couple people in their organization and they said so like if you take a Heramman feeder kid now and he decides he wants to stay in the Herman feeder but we if we >> change the boundary >> geographically change it they have to go and play for Riverton until he is a student at Haramman. >> Talking about banttom teams. >> Yes. Yeah, >> what you're talking about. >> But they can also like pointed out that they could also change their bylaws. So, >> moving to the the uh the east, area 2 is not impacted directly because this area represents the area already going to Riverton and Ochre Hills Middle. there was a a strong sense of support for the proposed boundary changes because they feel like everybody else that goes to the school with these students is now they're all going to go to the same school. And you know there if there were concerns raised we want to just be transparent in that it was over just the conditions of the Ochre Hills is is one of our older elementary schools. Um and just the transportation distance. >> What's that? >> You mean middle school? You said elementary school. Yeah. Ochre Hills is one of our older as the former principal of Ochre Hills Middle. I think I should have known that, but yes, pardon the pardon the slip of the tongue. I am curious about the concerns raised over facilities conditions at Ochre Hills and >> and especially because someone said something about that the parking at Riverton is horrendous and that's the first I've ever heard of parking at River needing to be addressed and so are are any of these concerns do they need to be on our radar and apparently they're not right that facilities need to be uh fixed quickly or are they okay that Ochre Hills could accommodate like 150ish students next year? >> Yeah. Um I think Ochre Hills is the oldest version of that school plant that that footprint. They were built in 1980. Um you've got South Jordan Middle and Joel P Jensen that also have the similar footprints to that. So the the the halls in Ochre Hills compared to other middle schools might be a little narrower, but they have adequate parking and space. I will also remind we have renovated extensively Ochre Hills Middle, added on to the counseling center, added on, you know, to the main office area and re refurbished and and remodeled all of the performing arts area. So there have been developments there uh in addition to LED lighting uh a very substantial change to the parking lot and the bus flow. So there there have been there have been projects there over the years. Riverton High um just for context many years ago before Herman High opened in 20 2009 Riverton High was at over 3,000 students and they had a lot fewer parking spaces than they do now. So over time the the enrollment size of Riverton has gone down and the parking spaces have gone up. So I'm not that's not being dismissive of the concern. I think if you've ever uh navigated the high school parking lot at the comingings and going times it's uh it can be a challenge for anybody and it is a challenge to find a good spot. >> Both schools are at 80% right now >> of their of their capacity. >> Plenty of room. >> Yeah. I was there when they were the fullest and the parking was not an issue, >> right? >> Just I think our expectations, >> right? >> I drop off my son occasionally at Riverton and I haven't noticed a parking space problem. I see plenty of open spaces. So yeah, that area if you look if you if you know the area of the parking lot, the souththeast corner of the Riverton area was we expanded the parking uh there pretty dramatically in years past. >> We're offering buses anyways to this whole area, right? >> This Yeah, that's a very good reminder that in under these proposals, this entire Midas Creek area would be busted to Riverton High School and Ochre Hills, respectively. The two areas that are afraid of losing buses are both being um funded with uh special what do we call them? Special buses like >> safety buses. >> Safety buses, >> right? >> Um I think in the area areas one particular I think they they qualify for busing in that area, do they not? I know they cross the corridor, but >> to when they're going to Haramman >> or Copper Mountain, >> it would be really helpful to me as I'm talking to constituents to have a busing map as if the boundaries were passed as outlined. Is that something we could request >> for this one? Everyone >> this one everybody would qualify. I'm just talking about like lose >> all of these so that you can say well yeah maybe Bingham's further but now you qualify for a bus that >> would that be helpful to other board members busing has been the number one complaint that I read in surveys and it is also the number one complaint I've received personally >> I from what I understood is that the busing complaint was coming from if you're going to force us to go to Riverton, but we want to continue going to Haramman. Now, we don't have a bus and we need that bus. And so there there was that request like keep the busing still for those who are, you know, grandfathering or whatever. >> Are you referring to the Midas Creek boundary change? >> I'm I was referring to just all in general. Could we just add a busing map? >> But specifically, yes. I'm most interested in the sunset the northwest >> in the northwest area. Okay. And I think we've got a breakdown of who would qualify for busing and that and we can Oh, >> we do. >> We we can speak to that. >> I I I have that data. I can pull it together. >> Yeah. In the initial presentation, I think we looked at that to see who would qualify in those areas. Again, to just to reiterate, I think when we're talking Midas Creek, everyone will qualify for busing for their new boundary at Riverton, but the comments have centered around, well, we want to go to our current school system, feeder system, and we want to maintain our busing. We want both. >> They're busing away for one. Is is now a good time to ask the question whether or not the district has ever offered permits and busing for those permitted students at the time of a boundary change. >> I do not recall there >> there was a time where we made a boundary change from Copper Hills to West Jordan High School. That was before I was involved in boundary changes at all. And there was a period of time for three years where the board provided busing to Copper Hills. So they said, "We've moved the boundary." So you're in the West Jordan boundary, but for all those students who choose over the next three years to stay at Copper Hills, we will continue to bus you to Copper Hills. So that happened there. There's that one time that I can recall that it happened, but that was probably 15 years ago, maybe more like 20 years ago. >> Not the norm, >> but has happened once. >> It is outside the norm. >> And what is the estimated cost of a bus? The range of a bus, >> $35,000 a year. I think that's when we looked at that recently with um there was a neighborhood in in one of our school boundaries that we were considering partnering with the city on the cost of it and I think that was for that private bus company was closer to 40ish. Um so a little higher than maybe what we could provide internally but but significant >> ballpark. Yeah. There's also a a drag on the whole system every time you add a bus >> because it's also hard to find bus drivers >> because there's only so much we can do within the time that we have. >> See? Okay. >> Thank you. I hope it was okay. >> Not to discourage the idea. It's just it's cost, but it's also feasibility based on location. And but it's if if it's an area we've busted before, then presumably we could continue to do so even though the boundaries have changed. So, >> and thanks for the question. See, that's what 30 plus years of institutional knowledge will get you. >> My experience. So, thank you. >> That's what the elderly have to offer is what it really means. I >> was implying just for the record, but >> no, you didn't imply it. You just said it. area. Um let's go back to area two if we can just to re just to put a cap on that. So again, this is an area that was that is already going to ochre. So there's a strong sense of support there to the south. Now area three, this is an area that go feeds into South Hills Middle and to Mountain Ridge High School. Again, uh more support in this area than in and perhaps in number one. same concerns raised over the loss of busing for students that would remain at their current school, but they love the idea of keeping Midas kids together. That is a theme that is consistent throughout um all comments regardless of their feelings about um where they're being moved. So, we do have other areas because this remember this does not impact the Midas Creek boundaries at all. Even though we're showing just the Midas Creek boundary up there, there are students um in all high school in all of the three high schools and the middle schools that are not impacted here at all. And there were mixed responses from the households. It just the concerns again of the capacity of these schools. They may not know or didn't understand that that they have capacity in those. So there were more questions and curiosities as is mentioned in the U representative comments. But um as has been pointed out already, there are there is sufficient capacity at both Ochre and Riverton with these changes. So we we because we just finished our October one enrollment um forecast numbers that we just showed you. This is an updated enrollment forecast for these schools with the boundary changes in mind. we have at the table that would happen without and the one that would happen with. You see the asterisks on this year's enrollment. That's because those that's our October one counts. The rest of the years are the changes um that don't include that only include the boundary area kids. Um we we would use those numbers when we do boundary changes because there's no telling how many will come and go on on permit at those schools. So you can see here um the table without what happens in five years at Copper Mountain and and South Hills they go up. Ochre Hills gradually goes down with this change. Copper Hill Copper Mountain doesn't go up as steeply. Ochre Hills goes up and then trails off to a and and we've said this before. I mean the sweet spot for for middle schools is right around that 12 to 1250 range. And that puts all of these schools in this in this range in five years. >> Cost of a bus is 50,000 inflation. Okay. And then moving on. Oh, sorry. It is you did move on. My apologies. Uh so again, yeah, these are the high schools with our numbers. again October one counts on the 2526 column and then the rest are the the forecast numbers based on our October one counts that only pertain to the that they only count boundary area students. The takeaway the trends here are without the changes Haramman High gets up to almost 2900 Hammond or Mountain Ridge would get to 2500s and Riverton High would stay um in the 2200 range. If these boundary changes were to occur, it does offset some of the growth in Haramman um and at Mountain Ridge and boosts Riverton um slightly so that they're they've got a manageable uh enrollment. Yep. This again I want to point out that this doesn't we can't forecast or predict um even using Scott's crystal ball we can't tell which students may choose to permit in perpetuity to their feeder system. So that is that is something that could throw throw these numbers off. >> So forecast enrollment with boundary change and assuming they all change. >> Yes, that's right. And we know that not all of them will. um historically, anecdotally, a lot of them, even if they don't like the boundary change, end up doing it because of transportation. Neighbors go and and they just they go. >> So, I have a question on this approach we're taking to allow priority for permits for 12 years. Um, should a school reach the thresholds that our boundary policy and laws have laid out, what happens to that priority? Like, let's say that Haramman reached 100%. Would we continue to be able to allow? >> Thank you for that question. the board under state law can basically do what they need to do, what they feel is in the best interest of permits at a school. We've looked into this before, but they because you've established that and you you will have voted on this, assuming it goes through, even if these schools were to go and reach a maximum capacity and there is no nothing that says the board cannot create their own rules for how we prioritize and tier permits. you've already done that to an extent with a few schools where you've got the tier one, tier two, tier three uh considerations for permits. That's not outlined in state law. That's something that you as a board came up with. So, the answer is yes. >> I'm not sure why we're changing the boundaries if we're going to allow everyone just to have this section be go where you want to go and we'll provide you the transportation you want to go with. like 12 years for me to make a decision to move to the school that we're bounding you is insane. That's insane to me. That's three future boards from now are going to be living with the decision we make. I'm okay with letting them finish their school. I'm almost even okay with a kid in a secondary a feed feeding the sis the feeder. But we're either changing them or we're not changing them. And I just don't know why we're given a 12-year window. >> You're thinking the way we've always done things. And we don't have to think that way. >> I don't want to think the new way. That just is insane to try to to because they can permit. >> They can't. >> Sure. They could. >> No, they couldn't permit to Heramman. They couldn't without this. They couldn't permit to Haramman, nor Mountain Ridge. They're too crowded. So, you'd like to do that for 12 years? You'd be open to doing it for five? >> I'd be open to having anyone in the secondary already finish out their feeder. But if you're a sixth grader, you should go to your boundary school in my opinion or otherwise >> have siblings. >> I still think that you should do that. You should make a decision at some point. Why are we even making a change then? because we could just let them go the way they are. Like I don't know. This is a crazy change and I want to think how I used to because I don't want to bind a future board 12 years from now to a decision that we made that we have no idea because those schools could be overcrowded. They stay at Haramman >> then we withdraw the permit option >> then we withdraw it. That's wor but that's worse isn't it? I don't know. We're either moving them or we're not moving them in my in my estimation. I would never vote for a 12-year window. >> I I don't want a 12-year window either. >> 12 years is too long. What window would you recommend? I I appreciate what Daryl said about um letting students in secondary finish out their secondary career. I I anyway their secondary Yeah. school career until graduation >> potential six year. See, and personally, I feel fine about a a four-year 9th through 12th, the high school. >> So that would mean those currently in ninth grade. >> Yeah. 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th would stay at their current school. So this year >> could permit would like get the permit when I I >> this year's eighth grader would be moved to a new middle school next year. >> Um I feel fine about that and I I feel like their families could apply for a permit if they um >> they won't get it >> and and the thing is I don't absolutely know that they will not get it. And so I think that that decision is generally up to the school administration and >> 90%. >> You're saying at the middle school, >> we only have one school at 90%. >> Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought what Nikki had asked was if the school reaches 100% can we still give permits if we want to? like the board can approve it and I'd be open to approving above the 90% if >> that's what we're proposing. >> Explain. >> We're proposing granting them a permit. If you want to go to the school, the school you intended to go to, we're granting you a permit right now. >> Well, and and I'm interested to I don't know that all of the students would apply for a permit. Do we have any idea so about how many students continue to permit when there's been a boundary change? Is it a is it a very high percentage? Is it more than 50% or more than 40% generally or does anybody know that? I'm sorry to put you right on the spot. >> No, we don't have the data for that, but we I don't think it's going to be 50% that we haven't experienced that high of a of a permit threshold when when we've made a boundary change. Because I mean I just I'm I'm speaking from my own experience and the people that like family members and friends and generally the people I know are okay to go to the boundary school even if it means a a change. Um, but that said, [Music] we I'm I don't come from a line of people that play little league sports that have the high school team mascot as the mascot. >> I think it's going to set a real bad precedence in future boundary changes because everyone else is going to say, "Why are you giving them 12 years and we only get two years?" or and I'm I love giving a window, you know, I love giving a window and let them adjust. I just don't think the window should be 12 years. I just think, like I said, finish out your current school or you could persuade me to finish out your current feeder if you're a secondary student. I would rather not do that, but we I guess the purpose is if we're going to move them, let's move them. If they want to be together, that's what they're all asking for. They came to us. We didn't go to them. They want to be together. Let's do everything possible to put them together, >> which is what we're doing, but we're not forcing them to be together. >> We are and we're not. The more that we open up that window and say, "Yeah, but here and here we're going to offer you busing and all that, we're really not not really." I didn't know that offering busing was even on the table because I do not want to. I I remember talking about it, but I feel like >> we voted. >> I Okay, there was a vote. I must have missed. >> Is there a vote? There was a vote. >> I mean, in this meeting, >> we also >> said we weren't going to p >> Oh, >> prior to sending out the survey information, we did agree on the 12-year. So, as um people have read the survey, received emails, attended school community council meetings, we would be changing the information that they've been given if we choose to change this. >> So, we approved a 12-year grandfathering in permit. >> We did. I I think I exhausted several of you with my questions before I said, "Okay, fine." on that one. But, yeah. Okay. >> So, I'm not saying we can't roll that back. I'm just saying >> heads up. This is the information that we have been giving the community >> to change it now. Would have to start the process all over. >> No, we wouldn't. >> We'd have to reservey. >> No, we wouldn't. We've changed along the way a lot on boundary changes. So, >> we've changed boundaries. We haven't changed the provision of the proposal. >> I say let's re re-ervey them then because I will not vote for a 12-year window. There's just under no condition. >> So, Dr. Anderson, >> we made that decision. >> Could you read us the the exact question that was the questions that were sent out on the survey or is it too >> There weren't any questions that were sent out. It was just the proposal >> and and so the proposal could you read the proposal? >> Um I can read you the way it's it's outlined in there. So the boundary change would have the following outcomes. All students attending Midas Creek Elementary School would attend Ochre Hills and Riverton High School as their boundary. um create but this would also would create anticipated create space for anticipated growth in Copper Mountain Middle, South Hills Middle, Haramman High and Mountain Ridge. There is an option to remain at current schools if school boundaries change. If you live in the Midas Creek, Copper Mountain Middle, and Haramman High boundaries, your child will have the option to attend these same schools through graduation. If you live in the Midas Creek, South Hills, Mountain Ridge boundaries, your child will also have the option to attend these same schools through graduation. We also put an important transportation information clause in there. It says if you opt for the new boundary schools, Ochre Hills and Riverton in this case, your student will qualify for busing. Families who choose to stay at their current middle schools and high schools will be responsible for their own transportation. That's the way it's written in on the the survey and the website. >> Okay. Thank you. So, it does say through graduation. So, a first grader would be able to permit through graduation and also it is understood that there's no >> and I will point out that that is specific to the Midas Creek. >> Yeah. >> Change. That is not the way it reads for the north northwest. >> Okay. >> Which is going to drive them crazy. So far, I haven't heard it, but if we point it out, I probably will. >> And so, just to just to go back to Mr. Dunford, um Dunford's point, we would be required to reservey if we wanted to change that grandfathering. Is that right? >> There there wouldn't be a requirement. There's no requirement for us to survey um and at all anyway. We have to notify, but the law doesn't stipulate any requirement for surveying. It would be a completely different proposal. >> Yeah, >> it is not this proposal. >> I to be honest was very uncomfortable with the 12-year roll out, but I am now that we made that decision and we have brought that information to communities, I would be uncomfortable changing it. I I feel like it's okay to move forward because that has been what is was presented. >> I also ask a question. Do we foresee the possibility of revoking permits if we exceed capacity at Haramman or Mountain Ridge for these students that we've now promised it to? >> Yeah, you have to. >> It has happened. Okay. >> I'm not saying we intend to, but there's >> it's not out of the realm of possibility. Okay. Thank you. >> And so what what and now what are we doing? Um what are we doing? The silence was just happening and I thought so what are we doing now? Well, I guess what I need to understand is is with that last conversation, are board members still interested in changing the 12-year roll out? >> I I am. I won't vote for it otherwise. And I would just say let's just stop where we are and just leave it the way it is. >> And and I feel fine. >> We're not accomplishing anything. I feel fine um moving forward with the timeline with the 12 year, you know, through graduation. Yeah. Because I I think I feel like this community, this has been >> has it been a 2-year request? I mean, this request started a while ago, and I feel like this community that was the impetus for this discussion, this action, they deserve some action. >> So, let's be careful here. When we made the decision to have them three feeders, I was their board member. I went to their homes. I had the meetings with them. They wanted to each go to these three different schools. The problem is you have just another a different school community council that wants the kids together. Some of which are not even they're going to permit their kid to the existing school they're going to and so the we can't always go with their request because we went with their request before and now they want a new request. Well, and I'm I'm very interested in um the public hearing and the the comments that come from the community and the the ne like I'm ex I'm interested in following the timeline and getting even more feedback from the community. And that said, I feel like we should move forward. I'm not making a motion that we vote on this tonight. I am saying let's move forward with the timeline with what has been put forward to the affected um stakeholders of or possibly affected stakeholders of this proposed boundary change. I think also Darl when you say we're not accomplishing anything I think we are accomplishing something because my my impression by listening to some of the statistics that were shared is that the vast majority of of the families in in this area are going to go with the plan and just a a small percentage >> we don't we don't know it. But based on the information that was shared here that and and and since a lot of the impetus for this change came from the community, 50% of them are on board already and and and they want this change. >> What are we trying to accomplish? >> Aligning a feeder >> alignment feeder system. >> It's one of our goals, isn't it? I mean, like it's even in the document that that we looked at earlier tonight. >> But if you're trying to accomp align a feeder system, but you give them so many ways out of aligning the feeder system, are you really accomplishing what we're trying to accomplish? That's >> because the vast majority will go. >> We don't know. >> I think that's what past presidents would show us. Generally, when we have made this offer, not a 12-year, but >> but we've never made this offer, they have gone to their boundary schools, >> the majority, right? >> It's it's interesting that even when we have offered, okay, you can stay at your school, you can permit to your school next year, it's really about what everyone else is doing. It's very rare that someone wants to be an outlier. So the other the other and I'm not trying to sway it one way or the other. I I am not impacted by this at all personally. The what we see is that people are permitting out. We align a feeder and then people still permit out. Even in our aligned feeders, people are making their own choices. So that still will happen, >> which is what I'm recommending. We make the decision and if they'd like to, they can permit out. But we're not going to give them a window of 12 years. >> Well, let's take an area where you can permit because there's space for you to permit wherever you'd like. Even if a feeder is if a feeder is aligned, that means that we've aligned our system. And if people choose to permit, they can permit out of that. And that means that they're not on the same going to the same schools as as people in the neighborhood. But we've aligned the neighborhood. they can choose to disalign the neighborhood by by permitting out >> and that's my recommendation. >> People still people will still permit regardless of the boundaries that we put in place. >> So can I ask actually a point of clarification in the proposal it says if you live in the Midas Creek Copper Hill Copper Mountain and Haramman boundaries your child will have the option to attend these same schools through graduation. What if my child is two years old? >> So, thank you. That's a good good clarification. So, what we would in essence do, I may be oversimplifying it here, but on the day that the board approves this boundary, assuming that you do, we would basically print a list of all students in area 1 and all students of area 3, K12. And if you're on that list, you get the you get the the ticket for a permit for the rest of your your K12 experience in in that feeder system. Does that make sense? >> So, it's currently enrolled students, kindergarten, not not preschool. >> Current kindergarteners would be next year's first graders under this change. And so, they would be it'd be allowed current kindergarteners through current uh juniors because seniors will be out next year anyway. So those 11 years or 12 years of of grades, we would have the list and that's what we would have to work on with student services and the schools in that area to make sure that when they request the permit that we've got them and each year that passes that that year that graduating class would fall off the list until >> I'll say one more thing and then I'll be quick, but let's say we're now moving Aspen Hills or Aspen Elementary and we're going to move them over to Oakley. belief. And now all of a sudden they're going to say, "Well, you gave this area a 12 year span. Why aren't you giving us a 12-ear span?" >> Can't. >> Why can't you? >> Well, when we can, but we can't. >> Well, why can't you? >> Because that's a space limitation. This does has no space limitations. >> Has space limitations because you just said they can't permit. >> We're We're moving them out. We're allowing them to permit back. That's the precedence I'm uncomfortable with and it's going to come back to bite us, but I'm good. I'll vote. I'm not going to vote for this. >> Okay. So, I know Miss Dean and Dr. Robinson, anyone else who um is still interested in changing the 12-year roll out? >> Did I I I >> I know you. I'm sorry. I meant I know your your >> You heard my piece. You heard my piece. I have heard you tell how you feel, but others were also interested at one point. I just want to make sure I'm not steamrolling anyone. >> I was interested in Daryl's um position, but I was under the false assumption that we were offering busing >> to the students who were op who were opting out of their >> feeder. >> And so since we're not offering busing, I'm I'm okay with it. >> 12 year Okay. So, sounds like we can move on. Okay. Great. Thank you for the long pause. Let's continue with the presentation. >> All right. We'll move on to the Northwest area. Overall in to summarize the entire uh comment section, there was support for keeping students at Elkridge together and moving area C to Bingham High, there's strong opposition to moving any student to a school that's farther away and the loss of busing for those students electing to remain. Again, that theme. Um I think just as a an aside, it's it's not uncommon for people to dislike changing schools. um that's a credit to our principles. It's a credit to the the teachers in that school that they do a good job and and people like their boundary school and so we you know we appreciate that when when we see comments like that. Moving forward, we'll we'll break this down as we have um with the previous >> we move forward. Can I speak to one comment on the last slide, >> please? So, just as a reminder to anyone at home listening, I I heard several comments to this same end that they wish for a grandfathering option that allows students already enrolled to finish at their current school. And I just want to clarify that in this proposal, we said you can stay at the school you're at. So, if I'm a seventh grade student who is being asked to move middle schools, this proposal, as it was outlined, allows you to stay at that middle school until you would be promoted on to high school, >> but not your feeder. >> But not the feeder. At the end of that time, I'll tell you exactly the way it says. For example, current West Hills students whose boundary changes may continue at West Hills but would be assigned to Bingham Boundary for high school after leaving West Hills, these students could apply for a permit through the established process to attend a different school. So, there is a grandfather clause in here, but it's just to stay at the school you're currently attending. So, a potential three-year roll out. I mean, honestly, really, it's two. So, I just wanted to clarify that for anyone listening at home who might be going, "But wait, >> thank you." And that and Miss uh President George quoted from the website and what was sent out in the in the email to to all parents. Um so, yes. And so, we're we're going to break down the areas just like we did in the last area by um number one is in the upper leftand corner of the screen. And that's what we're referring to as area one. These are students that are directly impacted by this change. Uh this would move that area from where it's currently at Sunset Ridge. You'll notice that it is it's note worth noting that it's on the east side of Mountain View corridor there and we're the proposal is to move area one to West Hills from Sunset Ridge. So, uh concern in this area for it's fair to say there's a there's a good amount of concern in the disruption that it would cause. Um, there's questions about busing and distance. Right now, that area gets busted to uh Sunset Ridge. Not everyone in that area would be busted to West Hills. And there was a fair amount of of conversation. I think be if you live out in that area, you see and hear and smell the construction day in and day out. You see the things going on. And so, there is a perception out there that we're going to need a school out in that area sooner rather than later. And that was that was mentioned in the comments uh many times. Moving to area two. Again, this is an impacted area. This is a area just south of Copper Hills. There is strong opposition to this boundary change. The concerns are over that we are moving students to Bingham and to Elk Ridge from area 2. That's that's the difference. In area one, there are we're only experiencing a middle school change. Area two, we're experiencing a middle school change and a high school change. And where they can, you know, walk right now to Copper Hills and even in and even um West Hills in some areas, this would have all of area 2 bust to Bingham and Elkridge. You can see there. Um, moving to area C, we we there may be some questions as to why we did one, two, and C. It's because C is a little bit different already. It's just a it's an area in which we notice there are only 50 kids in area C that go to West Jordan High School. Out of those 50 students, 35 currently permit to Bingham. So, the majority of students in area C already go to Bingham, which would be why area C has strong support for the proposal to go to Bingham. Um, and they already go to Elk Ridge. So, this would just be a high school change in this area. Strong sense of support. The other areas not impacted, which is a vast majority of the people in the high school areas, there are three high schools impacted. There are three two two middle schools impacted in this one and there's general agreement that we need to do something to offset the large enrollments at Sunset Ridge and Copper Hills specifically and the concerns stem from moving students even more students out of West Jordan to Bingham and there's a there's a concern about crowding at Bingham High School. If we look at the what this does to the forecast, keep in mind again these are um these are re recent. These will not yet match what parents have been seeing on the website. They're not vastly different. They're just updated with current information. The first column with the asterisk is this year's October 1 counts. And then from there on it's the new forecast numbers with the current boundary students. keeping in mind that we can't forecast which students are going to elect to go or stay um on a permit. So that's why so you can see this is the middle school changes without boundaries and then with the boundaries of note you'll see notice that Elk Ridge over the next 5 years is set to decline to get into the 800s. Um Sunset Ridge gets up to the 1500s once again and West Hills stays pretty steady with this change. the proposed change, you'll see that it boosts Elkridge enrollment to be in the thousands. Um, and Sunset Ridge takes it down to the 1200s and West Hills goes to the 1300s. Again, not knowing where students may or may not elect to stay or go with permits. And now we move on to the updated enrollment forecast for high schools. without the permits. You can see that Copper Hills um moves gradually upward to 2800 students. Bingham is on a downward trend and West Jordan it continues a downward trend as well. With these changes, Bingham gets a pretty good bump to the point where they would be in the 2300s within 5 years. Permits not withstanding on this. Again, Copper Hills, um, they are are reduced in their enrollment size and West Jordan continues, um, because they only we only impact around 50 students in that area. So, those are the new forecast numbers. After this presentation tonight, we plan on on moving these numbers to the website. In case anybody listening or anybody asks board members why those numbers are different, it's because we just received the new uh, October one forecast. Does that make sense? Okay. Can >> I just clarify one myth that is out there right now that says Sunset Ridge is much larger school than West Hills. Um, if we look at their architectural capacity, so I'm just looking at building size for students. They are identical. So, just to clarify that, I saw it in comments. I've heard it in school community councils. It's it's a myth. >> Yeah. The difference there in the capacity lies in the number of portables where Sunset Ridge has currently 11. Um West Hills has five currently which boosts their actual current use capacity up. But the architectural capacity, President George is correct. It's precisely the same. Nikki, I've had several people request that we open the window back up for the survey. I'm sure you've heard that. Do you want to address that? The community council said they didn't have a chance to have a meeting during the window and would like the window opened back, the survey opened back up. How do you respond to that? >> Uh, it was something I wanted to float to the board tonight, so you beat me to it. Sorry, >> I'm curious how board members feel about it. There was a sense at the Copper Hills School Community Council that people felt caught off guard. Um, and I I did have a conversation with them about the fact that this survey was a little different and that it was really an opportunity to provide feedback, but that we have multiple opportunities and ways to provide feedback in the future. They still felt like there was something unique about having a survey. They feel like more people will participate if we reopen it. curious if those people had the opportunity to do the survey or some of them didn't have the opportunity to do the survey and they're just assuming >> I think everyone had the opportunity but some missed it with the hustle of the beginning of school. >> So um we discussed the process as it had happened already and there was like I did you get a postcard? I didn't I don't remember a postcard. It's just such a busy time of year. And so they felt like that might be beneficial for them. Although we did have a pretty great survey response when you consider the percentage of people affected and the percent that responded. We were only a few below. But I told them that I was open to that if they felt like it was a better way to communicate with the board. I also shared our board comments email. I also shared the opportunity to email us directly as well as the hearings and comment se sessions that we have coming up. And so looking at the number of um people who would have gotten the postcards or the email to respond which is the unaffected or the affected groups. 10% responded to or I think it might have even been commented, but it's like 10% responded. And that seems like a lot. It seems like a a good number. Is it? >> If you look at it like this, 994 impacted students and we got 942 responses. That's a pretty good number. >> And so I feel like people a lot of people. I mean, a school community council, I appreciate school community council, but that is 10 members at a high school, which is um what six parents, right? And so obviously there were a lot of other families that I mean they might not represent um 100% accurately um people's ability to respond. Am I making sense? So I don't know. And I'll also mention that there was a concern brought that it would be helpful if we could leave the survey open a little longer so that they could talk about it at parent teacher conferences. And so we have once extended that window of that request already. >> So there's a precedent for it >> or >> or not. >> You could say we already did. >> Okay. >> Either way. So we so is or would we start the review would we start the survey all over again? I mean all but 52 people's uh responded. >> Well, they're not necessarily people from the affected area. You know what I mean? Those anybody could respond. I I >> I came from an unaffected area and I was invited to respond. And so, but that seems like a lot of response. >> How many were in the affected area that responded? >> It it's on the attachment. We we asked them to selfidentify which area they lived in in their so in your comment uh packets that you received those the comments were were sorted by which area they they identified themselves as living in >> was this survey I know sometimes we limit how many times a specific I don't know how all the tech works but a computer could respond respond. Is that the case here or could someone >> like a bot >> conceivably? Yeah. Could someone conceivably have taken this a few times? >> We do we do seize the the Qualric Sorry, there uh the Qualrix software does flag uh responses from the same IP address. So, but if there's two parents and a student in the household, >> we're going to let them take it each let them each take it. So we we keep an eye on those but we don't discount you know duplicate unless we see >> 20 >> and in this case where this was more of an informational survey rather than a preference survey that that I mean someone could go on and comment several times probably and and you know expand on their thoughts potentially. >> Okay. So, board members, what do you feel about opening the survey back up? And I'm okay if that's specific to the Northwest if that makes a difference. >> I'm happy to. We're not in a rush. We could get their feedback quickly. I wouldn't leave it open very long, but I would I'd be happy to open it back up. >> The same. I'm neutral. I I'm happy to do it if that feels better. Is it a burden on administration to reopen it and reate all of the responses? >> We we could reset the the Qualrix and resend it depending on what the who the board wants to send it to. We could open it up to everybody in the Northwest area or you could open it up to to a specific area as well. >> No, it's not hard. >> I'm not opposed to it. I think you're going to get the same result because the people that are reaching out to me in that area are in area 2 that strongly oppose the boundary change because they're closer to a high school that we're going to now ship them farther away. I'm okay to reservey it. I don't think you're going to get same any different results because they strongly oppose it already and that's why they're asking because they want to get more people to strongly oppose it. So you may have very strongly opposed it, but I think you're gonna get the same results. I know why they're saying what they're saying. >> I think you're right that we'll get similar results. I think we will get expanded reasons. There were some shared at school community council that I think are now circulating. But >> anyone opposed to extending it? >> Okay. I'm curious though if you could separate out the new comments we get. So because we've got all of these ones and then if you just absolutely ones that's not no problem. >> Do we need to reservey like area C or area one or I mean you're going to reservey the whole thing? I think we surveyed the whole thing because the um impression that I got at the school community council was that Copper Hills doesn't stand to gain much in this change. They feel like they take some negatives but no positives. I would argue that but that is what I heard. So I think it's people who are not affected that are interested in reserving >> or people who are not affected >> because they want to >> they want to keep >> the students. >> Hey, how long? >> Yeah, good question. So everybody, what I'm hearing is everybody in the Northwest area open the survey back up. we would email them, which here's one idea. We're already going to remind them of the opportunities for public comment through parent square. Those that reminder can also say we're opening the survey for an additional fill in the blank on how you want it. >> Are you comfortable opening it until our next meeting? >> Well, it's got to come before that so we have the survey results. >> I I would give them sufficient time to process it and give us the update before the meeting. How much time would be helpful? >> A couple of days. I mean, for instance, if our next meeting is the 28th, we could The problem the challenge would be that we run into fall >> break and the break. >> Oh. Oh, fall break. >> So, we could we could close it that weekend after fall break and have it uh to you for the 28th. Uh that doesn't take long to to take the comments. The the summaries are quick to to create. I think we could do that. What are they going to say? Well, we didn't have a chance fall break. >> Well, there's only so much we can do. How soon would you send out the notification that it's reopened? >> Do it tomorrow. >> We just do it for a week. I would say a week. >> I would say a week. I don't I want to set it. I I would just say set it until fall break begins. This last week of school >> would >> that's only like >> fall break begins in three days. >> Two days. >> Dr. Anderson would >> that's sufficient. the people who are asking to take it >> now know that it's there and can take it in one day. >> If we were to open it through fall break, would whether we closed it during fall break or at the end of fall break, would your team be working on this during fall break? >> I don't know. You know, we we could close it I mean, we could close it at 8 a.m. Monday morning when we arrive and pull the results and run them through a a summary and have them to you. Yeah. by the latest the afternoon of Monday the 27th. >> And that gives you only one day. I really don't want you to put too much. >> We work we work efficiently and and uh quickly. I'm looking over there so I don't get hate hate you know any >> that's the royal we right >> yes that's the royal we'll take days on that day. So that's what I would suggest just because it gives the community an opportunity and it doesn't create added strain it sounds like on our staff who aren't going to be doing it during that week anyways. >> I think they wanted it open a lot longer. >> I think they would enjoy having it open until a vote. I'll also point out that I did hear from all of the school community councils. Well, of the three that I attended, which were Sunset Ridge, West Hills, and Copper Hills, they were told our vote would be the first meeting in December. >> Yeah. Which is I mean that's just the the first opportunity, first potential action could be taken in um November 18th, I believe we said. But >> yeah, the earlier the vote just facilitates the permit question a little bit better. But there's no reason that we need to if if the board doesn't >> I see wisdom in doing it sooner because the permit window opens. But just so we get the word out, maybe we can include that. >> Sure. And just so we do give I mean I don't want to just I these guys are amazing but I don't want to presume if you guys are if the board is good with getting the survey results at the latest Tuesday morning that gives us time to process and make sure we're sending them out. That's that would be at the latest still give you some opportunity to read it prior to board meeting in the public comment period. >> That works for me. just seems to me that we're kind of like making rules as we go with whatever we want to do and like that's why it really frustrates with me with not having some priorities and some processes that we go through in a boundary change and maybe it should be that way. I think that that's what's frustrating me. Mhm. >> So, priorities and processes, not in regards to like how we trigger the conversation, but how the convers >> now we're surveying these guys again, but what about those people now? They're saying, "Well, we should have surveyed us again, too." And I mean, I don't know. I'm not saying one's right or wrong, but I think that's what's getting me a bit frustrated in the process is that every scenario is different. Maybe it should be, but >> no consistenc I am I am uncomfortable with what I perceive as inequity >> and what what is the position of the board to explain the inequity and it's fine if we've got an explanation for it that we can stand by. But until we have that discussion, I'm uncomfortable with a 12-year here and a three-year there and maybe a 5year for someone else. Should we as a board say here's how we're going to do it so that we can be fair? >> I would approve a 12-year anywhere this same situation surfaced, but nowhere else does it surface. We have such anomalies all over the place. We can't do that. It would be nice if we could do that. But anyone in this situation, I am not I don't feel like we're being unfair. I would approve a 12-year to anyone in that situation. I would extend a survey to anyone who felt like it would benefit. And so, I think you have to just simply say, is there a rightness or a wrongness in this particular situation? And we can't compare it to a situation that's different. And let's throw out all guidelines because every situation's and that's pretty much what we do. We have some basics. When was the last time a guideline changed what we were doing? I can't think of a time. Guidelines guide us, but in every situation, we play unique to that situation. We've always done that. >> I don't see it that way, but that's just me. >> I guess I don't see what's unique necessarily about it. >> Name an elementary that has three feeder systems. name an elementary school. We don't >> they ask for it. >> There's one that was mentioned. >> The people that asked for it aren't there. >> Well, some >> and the people that are there are asking to be unified. >> Some of them are because they're the ones that are asking for the 12-year exception. >> I don't think so. >> Is anyone asking for that? >> That's the real question. >> No one has asked for a 12-year extension. That's was our offer. >> Why don't we survey on the 12-year exception? like we did we didn't survey the public. >> Well, we didn't get any we included it in the information and no responses spoke to it. >> I think it's fair if we say that as as a principle we will follow constituent requests and if con constituents didn't request it, >> we're not going to propose it. I think that's a fair stance to take. I just want to be clear on it. One of the comments said that Copper Canyon is split between three middle schools. Is that accurate or inaccurate? >> Copper >> Oh, maybe I meant >> No, Copper Canyon Elementary, I think, is is what maybe what they're referring to. >> Copper Canyon Elementary. Sorry, I'm thinking of I think they're saying that it would be split between >> in in this scenario, we they would be split into two, wouldn't they? >> Two feeders, two middle schools. >> Yeah. So that was they were confused. >> It already is split into two. >> I It looks like it. Isn't this >> Copper Canyon? And here's the boundary for Sunset Ridge and West Hills. And it looks like >> Are there even any homes? Yeah, I guess not. I guess not. Yeah, the industrial area. Yeah, this this proposal would take students and and West Hills currently, but it would change it so they feed into West Hills and Elk Meadows. >> Elkridge >> or El Sorry. My gosh, is it late or is it just me? So, >> so they would go from feeding to two schools to feeding to two schools, but they would be one of the schools will be different. >> Okay. >> Am I saying that correctly? >> That That's correct. >> All bets are off at this point. I've stumbled over my tongue twice in the last sentence. Okay. I I don't know if I see a need to keep the survey open, but I I'm kind of on the fence. Yeah, I don't I don't see a need to keep it open for very long because it seems like the people who they might be anxious enough to get right on responding if >> the website is still there, correct? With all the information. >> That's correct. >> And I would love to see emails or have them come in person for public comment. if they have things to share, please send me your comments. If we're not going to reopen the survey, even if we are going to reopen it, I'd >> like to make a motion that we reopen the survey for one week. >> I second. >> So, until the 21st. >> Okay. We have a motion by Mr. Barnett, second by Miss Wood to open the survey for the Northwest Survey Group for one week or until the 21st of October. >> Okay. But do you have discussion? >> Yep. Any discussion to that motion? >> So, it makes no difference if we open it till the 21st or we open it till the 27th because people aren't working. I just say I will just make amendment that we open it till the 27th. >> Just to clarify, we will we work those are contract days for us. So we'll be working. So that could that actually could get some time. We're I'm just saying I wanted to clarify that we will be working or have people in the office on the 21st. >> Okay. So if anyone wants to withdraw, I'll make the proposal if anyone doesn't want to second it. >> I didn't know you were working. Okay. So, a replacement motion. >> No second. So, >> I guess I'm just trying to understand the fact that it's a contract day means you could close it on that day or you could process the survey on that day on it and not be so time crunched. >> And so, a week would actually allow them more time rather than a week and a half. >> Would we consider since it won't be open until tomorrow extending it to the 22nd? So they actually have a week. >> We could do that. >> Day. >> The um well, if we close it like the morning of the 22nd, Scott is working that day. Um the next day, Thursday and Friday are not contract days, so we won't be working those days. So if we closed it, >> it it would it would make a difference for processing time. But I want to clarify. I think we can the Royal We can pull it off with whatever you want us to do. My motion is to leave it open to the 22nd, but someone can make an counter one. >> I mean, I would second that motion just because my community is asking for it >> and it's not going to make a big they they can do this report. This is not a big report for them. >> Okay. So, we have a motion to open this survey for the Northwest Boundary Change um constituents until the 2, the morning of the 27th. Uh motion by >> let's just say midnight, >> 22nd or 27th. Sorry, I thought you said >> Well, I said to the 27th, but it might just say midnight of the 26th would just be good. that Sunday night, man. If they come in early or whatever, they have the 27th and 28th to prepare it for us. >> Okay. So, can I leave it the morning of the 27th because that's how Mike said it. >> Okay. So, we have a motion by Mr. I mean Dr. Robinson, second by Miss George, that we open the survey for the Northwest Boundary constituents until the morning of the 27th. Is there discussion there? >> Okay. All in favor? >> Yes. >> I'm in favor. >> I. >> And any opposed? Okay. That motion carries. So, we will open it till the 27th. Thank you. Good discussion. Anything else on this agenda item? Fantastic. All right. Let's move on then to board and superintendent reports and comments. Facilities committee doesn't have a report. We're meeting our next meeting is October 30th. Facilities had planned to meet this week, but something we thought was going to happen isn't going to happen. So, we will not be meeting this week. >> Finance. >> Finance. >> Finance. >> You said facilities. >> My fault. >> Finance. >> Thank you. Have a good night. >> Thank you. >> And report from US Utah High School Activities Association. We are beginning the process of realignment for the next goound. Um the board of trustees has decided to do it itself, not commit, not form a committee. So more on that coming. There will be an election in January. I do plan to run again. I will need one of you to nominate me. Um, it's chosen by board members at the Utah um, >> USBA >> USBA convention in January. So, >> if we want someone from our board to continue to represent us, I would encourage all seven of us to be there. Um, there is not another district that has enough votes to beat this district if we choose to. And I plan on running again. >> I will jump in and say that I've got uh an idea for a JPAC meeting. Um, it was an idea I got from Superintendent Godfrey to gather feedback on Parent Square and how it's going. Um, I know there are kind of a lot of mixed reviews and so I would like to get some feedback on that, but I want to if this is the topic and I would love to hear your guys' feedback. Um, I'd like to give a robust time for people to comment, for SEC chairs to ask their school communities, uh, how they feel, to kind of gather their information, and or if we could have some sort of Google doc that SEC chairs could share with, um, their communities to get to gather feedback uh, on it and then potentially meet in January um, instead of in November. I just personally don't see a lot of pressing issues that we need to really take to JPAC right now. So that's why I'm okay sitting on this one, but I'd love to hear if board members have any other ideas that JPAC could ask. Would you still try to do two this year or would this be a single meeting? It might be a single. Um I I don't know. I don't I just don't want to add more meetings if people aren't going to come, right? I want to make them meaningful. Um and so that's why I'm thinking just one at the moment but I am new to this committee. So any thoughts and ideas are greatly appreciated. >> In the past they are they are an advisory committee and in the past if we need their advice we seek it. If we don't need their advice we don't necessarily seek it. It's not that we don't care. It's that they are an advisory committee, which usually means here's an issue. What's your how do you respond? And if there is no issue that we would necessarily take to them, I would say don't. I've had a question running through my mind. I don't know if this is a good JPAC topic and I am literally shooting from the hip because it just came to me but I have been curious about um the experience of parents in terms of like class offerings if they feel like they they understand the options available to their students and they understand the paths that are offered and how to follow those paths. I'm just curious, are we getting the word out about the things that we have available in our district? I don't know if JPAC is the right place to ask that. I I like that because I feel like the more I've learned about what we have to offer, even though my kids aren't in secondary yet, and I'm trying to share that with other parents who have secondary kids, they a lot of them don't know about it. And I'm like, how can you not know? These are great opportunities. So, I I like that perspective. Um, I I think um a possible topic could be how school community councils can engage with um elected representatives, even school board members and state legislators and and possible things that are coming. more educational then like educating them on how to engage instead of like a advisor >> instead of an advisory. >> Yeah. >> Or Yeah. I mean and and find out if they're interested or I don't know. I don't know. >> Did we do that one last year? >> Not that it matters. I was just >> I was thought I remembered it but >> there were we touched on it a little bit. Yeah. We reviewed what the legislature had gone over and then we touched on how to contact their legislators. Yeah. >> And I don't think that's says no, we shouldn't do it. It was just again me checking my memory >> because I I I feel like the school community council members are also elected representatives that help make decisions for like they're representing >> the stakeholders of their school. And um I just I hope to empower them with um that they can have a a voice and >> Yes. Yeah. I was at an SEC meeting last week and they were having questions that would be dealt with at the legislative level and I encouraged them to contact their legislators now and that coming from them it might be more worthwhile um and contacting them now instead of in January when they are up at the capital and super super busy. And so anything else? And I should add that my topic suggestion would really only pertain to people >> in secondary, right? >> Probably not on the school community council. >> They know. They know what's going on. You're asking the choir if they like to sing. >> That's a good point. >> It's a good question. It's just trying to get it to the correct, >> but that's not the audience to ask. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I can speak to um if you're ready. Okay. Just want to make sure I wasn't interrupting. Um, so Gak, there is a multilingual family night coming up Thursday at West Jordan Middle School from 6:00 to 8:00 p.m. There will be some student awards, performances, and dinner. >> Repeat the date and time again. >> That's this Thursday from 6:00 to 8:00 p.m. at West Jordan Middle. >> 6 to 8. Sorry. Okay. Sorry about that. And then on Wednesday night, there is a trunk or treat by the BSU over at Haramman. And that's from I've got two different times here. 5 It starts at 5 and I don't know if it goes till 6:30 or 7:30. My apologies. I have two different invitations for it. I am planning to go in costume. >> Uh the Black Student Union, I believe is what that stands for. are hosting it. Yeah. Sorry about that. >> It's at Haramman. It's at Haramman High School. >> What time? Oh, you had to check on >> It starts at 5 and I'm sorry on my calendar I have two I think it's Well, it says either till 6:30 or 7:30. So, if you're interested, show up between 5 and 6:30 for the government relations advisory committee. I'm going to ask Dr. Anderson for some information to share on that, but you all should have received an invitation to our legislator breakfast this quarter. Um, so, uh, Dr. Anderson can go over those specific dates, but wanted to give you all an opportunity as to whether or not those locations and dates do or don't work for you. Um, is now a good time, Dr. Anderson, to have you go through that. Otherwise, I have one more thing I can share. No, I've got the information here and just wanted to so um as we did last year, we decided as a government relations committee to pattern it after what we did um previously where we had three different meetings with no more than three board members and we kind of separated it out by by region. So the southern region um and the central region and then the northern region and I think that facilitated we felt like that facilitated better conversation. uh there weren't microphones and recordings occurring. It was more of a a more intimate setting and a conversational tone about the issues. And so um we had three different dates and those invitations have been sent out to all board members and and legislators in those areas. Some of the areas overlap either board member or legislative areas. So we did double up on a couple of them. And um the first one is going to be on November 20th and that is going to be the more southern area with Bryce, Daryl, and Brian on the 20th have all RSVPd and we've got several legislators that have indicated they're coming. The next day, November 24th, we've got a couple of legislators that have RSVPd. I'll I'll ping them a couple more times just to remind them those that haven't committed. And on that one, it was uh Aaron, Suzanne, and Bryce. And then um on the December 2nd is the it's the more uh northern area. Couple of legislators have RSVP. And in that one, we have Aaron, Nikki, and Lisa. So, does that work um for everybody? Does anybody need the request? >> December 2nd. >> December 2nd. Yep. And I sent it to >> They're all at the JLC. >> Yeah, thank you for that. That's a good clarification. They will all be in the central the heart of the district. Uh the committee wanted to showcase the new JLC >> from 7 to 9. >> 7:30 to 9. Yep. And again, if you want to look on those dates, that should be on your your calendar. uh those were sent and uh I'll I'll send a couple more invitations or reminders to those that haven't RSVPd and just a reminder once we get closer for everyone that's RSVPd. Just in the interest of balancing board member attendance, I'm curious if anyone has conflicts with the ones that Mike just mentioned. >> I would have RSVP to all three because I'm pretty flexible. >> I do think um >> have more than three, >> right? I'm just saying if somebody can send it out. I would have pressed yes. So >> we can fill in and make sure that we have everyone that >> I think. >> So if you end up not attending, do please let Mike or I know and then we can get another board member there who may be interested. >> Miss Dean, does the December 2nd one work? >> That works for me. >> I will add that Representative Miller with the help of Dr. Anderson did visit at her request South Jordan Elementary last week. So, just many thanks to him and his team for coordinating um these requests both by the committee and by our legislators. >> I'm curious just for kicks and giggles to go to South Jordan Elementary or >> what's that? >> Sorry. Did like was it just for fun that uh Representative Miller >> September was legislators in the classroom month. >> Yeah, it was her request. She wanted to visit. It was not just any school in elementary in particular. >> She particular she requested she requested that school. >> Okay. Well, >> and I'm working with Representative Tasher on a school visit as well in the next couple weeks. We didn't want to limit them to one month. They're busy and they were and there was a lot going on with the special session this month. So, we just, you know, I open it up saying if you want to visit a school, we'll make it happen whenever. >> Yeah. >> I think that's great. I love that. >> If people reach out, will you let us know if they're visiting a school that we represent? >> Most certainly. Yeah. And when when we pin down representative >> Terramman and I was invited and we had a great visit. >> Great. >> Yeah. I think I remember what the parent advisory committee. So, and maybe this been said, but um there's a significant amount of concern in with people in the district about school safety for a variety of reasons. And um and in some community councils, they're confused with with our safety plan that we can share and what we can't share. And I just think that that would be a really good time to go over with them. We had a situation in my community that people are upset with. We did everything right in our protocol, but people need to understand our protocol so that when they hear it down the grape vine, they're able to be educated on that. So it just seems to be and even us as a board I think we we we do talk a little bit in close session but safety seems to be something that we focus on after an event instead of constantly. I remember going to some conferences that says you should talk about it at least every quarter and sometimes we've been success I would think that would be a really good thing to educate. Yeah, we just got one last year, but I think you could talk about >> last like last fall maybe because we didn't talk about it in the spring. >> Matt come. >> He may have come that maybe I'm trying to remember. I know he met with a couple of community groups and school groups, but I'm not sure. I don't think he came to JPAC. Um >> it was in that room he went over all of the protocols, the new >> Yeah. Did you come to an administrative training or is that another training type for that? >> Parents. I was sitting at a table with parents. >> It's important enough that it probably even if he's come before I think that would be a welcome never second witness because I was thinking about that actually with safety. So >> I ask would that include just during school hours or school events like football games and whatnot or is it >> for safety? I think as much of the plan that I think people need to know as much as we can share them and they also need to understand we can't share everything. >> Yeah. >> So that's what when I've been talking to a lot of people lately about this and I'm like I can't tell you everything that we're planning. That's why it's closed session because we don't want but there is a lot more that we can share that we don't share. Not that we don't want to but I I I think we share it and then maybe they hear it maybe they don't. We have an updated list that we sent out previously uh a couple years ago. If you want us to send out a list, I can send you that list and you can tell me whether you want us to send it out to all parents. Uh it has tradeoffs when you send that sort of thing out because then people say, "Well, how come you're not doing this?" Well, we are. We're just not sending that out to everyone. So, it's tricky. And I would ask the board to just if you feel uncomfortable with that that we aren't sharing enough information then talk with us about that and we can share that. There's also a recent law that says we can't share certain things that we're doing. >> Great to share that. >> So there was a lot of back and forth >> the law. >> Yeah. >> Well, we do put it out there. >> Yeah, we do. And it there's a lot of information out there and it's difficult. I what I guess what I'm saying is if you as a board feel I wish we'd send out information about this, please don't be shy about saying that's something we'd really like you to send out and we can do that. >> Have a regular cadence that we send maybe the same information out. We schools send out a lot of information. There's not We don't send out safety information every September or every particular time, but we can do that. >> When you say there's a list you can send out, what do you mean? >> There's a list of security measures we're taking, physical security measures that we are taking, and we sent it out a few years ago. We have an updated list that we've provided to principles so that they can talk with faculty or answer questions about it. U but I'll send that I'll send that to the board. I'll send that to you and that's been recently updated. This came from more than one school community council, but I think a lot of people are on edge with a lot of things that are happening. And so, anything that we can do to comfort and especially for them to know we can't share your our whole plan with you, please understand that. >> Yeah. >> We do have a plan. That's what we talk about this all the time. It's very important to us, but we're not going to broadcast how we're protecting schools from people who want to hurt children >> for obvious reasons. >> So, Miss Barrow, I'm curious if I know you said you like the idea of a good roll out for the conversation. Now, I'm starting to feel like we have enough content for a November meeting. And then maybe you could give them a heads up. >> Yeah. about the January meeting. Invite them to start participating between now and then. >> Sure. >> What do you think? >> I think that's >> now that I'm trying to make this work for you. I'll come. I volunteer. >> I'll volunteer. I'll be there. >> No, I think that's great. I Yeah, I I want this to I want these to be meaningful meetings. And so I think now we've got some good content and so that we can make it worth their while for coming to a meeting. So yeah, I'm good with two. I will work with uh Dr. Anderson on a date on that when we can send out information to specifically like principles to pass on because I feel like it got lost in the mix last spring. So >> yeah, we keep a list of emails with councils, but it it's sometimes a little more impactful to have the principal personally invite them and and come with them even if they or you know just tell them about it, >> right? Yeah. I've noticed as I've attended school community council meetings and they give the spill about who's going to be the chair and here's what the chair does. Never have they mentioned JPAC. >> Never. >> I have brought it up at each of the ones I've been in, but it just it's not a part of our culture yet. And I think having it once a year, it won't ever become a part of our culture. We're looking just to clarify November. >> Yeah. >> And then did I hear January? >> Uh no, we'll push that one back. Um just it was January if we're only going to do one. >> Okay. And I'll send you the list of security measures that we've kind of curated and we'll send that to you and then we can talk about sending that out. I may even just send you a draft email in the next few days. Sometime this week I'll send you a draft email. See what you think. Okay. So, LEAK um will have a meeting on the 3rd of November. Um and Jordan Education Foundation. The 6th of December is Christmas for kids. You can join in by donating your time on the day to shop with the student or donate financial resources to help them um to help just to do this. And >> that date again >> January oh December 6th it's a Saturday. >> Can I rewind back to the November 3rd meeting? >> Yeah. >> Have we decided what board members are attending that meeting? um >> content. >> So I which board members would like to and are able to attend? >> What time? >> Um I think it will be around is it 4 I >> the date again? >> November 3rd. It's a Monday. I can be there if you need me. >> Okay. And >> you have enough without me then. 4:00. >> Yeah, I think four o'clock is the a time that works best for a lot of teachers and it's here at um JTC South. And so Nikki um you would like to attend and Daryl? >> Um I think I'm a no then because you want to go Suzanne, right? >> Oh, did you want to go? I can. She can go. We don't want to do four, do we? >> It doesn't matter. I I think that if you It's not like we are going to be sitting together in a quorum. I think that um but you're you can come. I I think it could be helpful to sit in and hear what teachers are saying. Um at the same time I will bring back whatever information I get from them. Whatever feedback >> we can have more than three then I'd love to be there. >> Okay. You are absolutely welcome. I think it would be great. >> We have to record it if we have too many there. >> Oh. Oh. They have to record it. >> My concern. >> Oh, >> I can sit out. We did that last year when we >> you come to >> I didn't go to >> Mr. Van Kman, can you >> I missed >> give any input there. Um we're wondering if we have a meeting with more than four but decisions are not being made. Do we have to record? >> Um if you're talking about something that you will be um taking action on in the future or likely would it it would be considered a meeting. It's not just that you're not taking action. It's if something that's within your >> So like a LEAC meeting, we would need to limit to three or record a notice. >> Again, it depends on what I always say that, but it depends on what what is actually done in the context of if all all four are together, if they're separate, um it's different from them being just just together and hearing the same things. put me down as an alternate. So if someone can't go then >> Okay, >> Carol, if you would prefer to go, I'm happy to bow out just saying I was available. >> I'm preferring to be the alternate. I want to make sure we have the support there, but >> not dying for another meeting. My wife will be thrilled >> and the Oh, that you are at the meeting or that you'll >> be thrilled if I don't go. >> Okay. And then do you have topics that you're >> concerned um behavior and attendance >> and then also just by way of >> are board members comfortable with those topics? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Sorry. >> I thought that we had talked about these before. Had had we? Okay. >> We probably have and I'm crooked. And then this is just by way of um a board member comment. I was very pleased at a recent elementary schools um school community council meeting they're doing their um monthly recognition in aligned with portrait of a graduate and this month it is curious thinkers students who have exhibited behavior or you know things about being curious thinkers and I I just I was very pleased with that and I wanted to share that this is not a committee report but um I am curious where the board is sitting on a board newsletter. We have definitely not revisited that topic in recent months. Are is that still something that's a priority for the board? And if so, I will do better at making sure that it's an agenda item instead of just a report. I I think a quarterly um is is great is completely appropriate. I I'm not I I feel okay moving forward with a a board newsletter. I also feel okay um doing it twice a year or quarterly or once a year or even not at all. So >> I I would vote for quarterly. I would love to have the board send out newsletters to parents and teachers just so I feel like we are communicating with them more. >> I haven't changed. I would like to do it after every meeting. Other districts do it and it's really effective. But yeah, other dis that's how it originally came up is other districts were doing it after each I would say after each general meeting. So it's once a month, but that's me. We our idea was to try it quarterly for W see how it went and it didn't went. >> So just like what comes out in the gem >> whatever comes out of the summary. >> So like the gem summary. >> Mhm. Well, summaries found going to parents and things. >> I know, but as the newsletter, if it goes out after every board meeting, some kind of summary like that with links to the time when the thing was discussed, >> but at least if we can go back to quarterly and then maybe we can try it every other month or I mean, I'm good either way. But I the more communication we have, I think the better it is for us. um the distribution channel of those newsletters. How do we distribute them? >> We have an email list for parents and um employees and then we have we purchased other email addresses just for um residents and then people can opt out of of receiving that email. >> Okay. I've heard >> quarterly and monthly. >> Start with quarterly and then work >> work towards that. >> Can I ask who would who would be sending it out and writing? >> We would and we come up with this stuff and we want to make it interesting, right? or >> so the way that it has happened prior has been the board suggests the topics and communications has done the write up and layout. Oh yeah, I don't mean to take credit, but it comes from the board, so we have to come up with it. But communications makes it look really good, >> but we do all the work. They're like, "No, it's on us. We are not making >> No, but we need to come up with board related topics. >> You tell us what you want us to cover, we'll send you a draft." >> I know. And I'm making it sound like a real chore, but um it's it's super fun. It's really fun. I feel like following each business meeting will get us in the routine of doing it. And I think the reason it fell off is because we were like, at some point in the quarter, we'll do it. And then it just sort of fell off. So >> that's why I originally suggested that. And it can be like the smaller I mean I just one page like we don't want like a 10page report of what's going on but like the safety protocol or something like that. We can just have a different focus and then here's where the summary of the meeting is. I mean we do some really good stuff with posting our minutes and the the YouTube link that you can click on to exact. I mean, I'd like to educate the people of what we're doing cuz I think a lot of them don't know. But >> and I think it would be nice because we highlight schools at our business meetings to highlight them in the newsletter, right? Like this month we had this school come and have a little picture because we always take pictures with our students that come. >> Love that idea. What kind of strain would it be on communications if we were to do it following each business meeting? >> We could certainly do that. >> Here's the problem we've always run into is who writes the summary. And if you look at our board page, summaries aren't approved for what, a month, month and a half. And so, who writes the summary? Does it represent the whole board? Is it an official board document? Does everyone feel comfortable with the summary? We've always run into issues with that. Sending out an announcement that doesn't necessarily represent how you viewed what happened in the meeting is a concern. And summaries take I mean, if you look at the website, summaries aren't posted for what, two months, Lisa? Month and a half. >> Minutes >> because they have to be approved before they get posted. summary comes out >> pretty quickly. >> The the gem comes out it seems pretty quick like the Friday or Thursday following a board me meeting. Yeah. And it's it's not opinionated at all. It's just the facts and then with links to the >> times. It I mean it doesn't mention board members names or anything. It just talks about this was discussed and anyway, >> could this be presented at a board meeting for review and approval before it goes out or is this something done via email? What >> the other districts were posting it almost the next day? schoolboard members would post on Facebook and stuff like that. >> And that's part of where the monthly thing I think was um the time frame of the board approving it. And I don't know >> if you want to approve it, it takes longer. If you just want us to post something that you can repost, we can do that quickly. But traditionally, this board has wanted to review documents before they go out. What if we did it like our agenda? Send out an email. If you have concerns, get them to me by tomorrow at 11. >> Yep. >> I like that. >> So, do you want just a summary of the board meeting to go out after each general meeting? >> Well, if it's going to be like a board bulletin thing, I'd like to jazz it up a bit, right? Like maybe there was a supercast that came out this month and we could highlight the supercast on there. Maybe that's when we had our ribbon cutting for the Juniper uh STEM lab and we just put a little blurb right there. Like I want it to be, you know, fun districty things. I don't know. >> Include this as just a standing agenda item at the end of every meeting. What do you want in the next bulletin? We give them a list >> and and generally it was um board related news >> as opposed to district >> as opposed to district >> district's already doing. >> Although I appreciate the supercast show now. >> It's a great podcast. I love it. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. I mean and and that's that's where I thought was a a small um some thinking needs to go into it. What is the board business like board related news that we want to go out >> like to see what other districts are doing just to get a sense of what >> I can send copies. It's been a while. Yeah. feeling it's really boring and I don't want it to be boring. >> I think that the previous issues were outstanding. They were really they were good. They were interesting and yeah, >> but I think it only appeals to a very small slice of the community. So, they are boring. >> I don't want them to be boring. >> And the thing too is what >> I I really love too is it goes to the community at large. It goes to our stakeholders, people who might not who might be interested in what the board is doing but not realize that they're interested in what the board is doing and it provides them some access to what their representatives are doing in the school district. So, I really liked that aspect of it that we bought the email addresses to send it to our our stakeholders that don't necessarily that we don't have as much contact with. >> Like us to make this an agenda item where we bring an example of what we've done, what other districts do, and just kind of revisit it? >> Would Yeah. >> Sorry, Brian. I cut you off. One of the districts might not be >> Did I cut you off, Brian? Did I cut you off? I'm so sorry. >> Right now, all of us have cut him off at least once. >> No, I don't have anything to say. >> That's funny. Okay. Yeah, let's bring this as a future agenda item. Okay. Dr. Godfrey, anything from the superintendent? Uh, nothing else for me >> and we have no close session business this evening. >> I move that we adjourn. >> Oh, she beat me. >> Second. >> She was quick. >> Okay, we have a motion. >> Second at least. Oh, wait. >> I already did. >> By Miss Dean and a second by Miss Barrow. Um, >> that we adjourn. >> The the baton has been passed. No, wait. It has not. It has not. >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> And any opposed? We are adjourned. >> Thank you for joining us. 8:30. Not that bad. >> Not bad.