excited to bring transportation and some of our planning and process back since we haven't done this for a while. Um Tony is going to kick us off here I believe with Brad on the highway corridor planning and project delivery and then we will have a follow-up meeting on some other items regarding transportation at the next meeting in March. So with that I'm going to turn it over to Brad. >> All right. Well, we're looking forward to presenting this information. So I'm going to start off and then I'll be turning over to Tony, Andy, and Craig. We each got different slides to talk through here and um we'll just get started. So the agenda, we wanted to start out with a highlevel overview of what we call building that regional roadway system and just uh remind commissioners uh how that's done through the transportation plan. um hitting the kind of the core uh requirements of the functional classification system and and the importance of access management. Then we'll drill down to spotlighting a couple of corridor studies that you're very familiar with and then getting into project delivery. And I think this will be the the part of the workshop we're really looking for some good discussion. We want to talk about what's our role as staff on some of these road projects. What's what's our consultant's role? But guess what? We also want to talk about what is your role as commissioners when we're working through some of these road projects. Talk about the city's role and then public input. Again, I think we're looking for some good discussion on the type of public input we get for these projects. Um some core requirements for building the regional system. I think it's pretty uh well known that it takes a shared vision. Um we heard about that at the 169 corridor coalition work. A long game approach. These um transportation plans do not get realized in one year, two years. It takes 10, 20, 30, sometimes 40 years or longer to achieve that ultimate vision for the system. During that time frame, it's a lot of partnerships with our cities and townships. I think it's notable that uh often times you're working with a lot of different elected officials throughout that 30 40 years and so it's a lot of education and um getting everyone back to why are we building this system? What is the ultimate vision? You know that it's a there's always a dynamic relationship between road planning and land use and development and um those really impact one another. If you make some bad land use decisions, it can really result in costly fixes in our transportation system. And there's always tension and sometimes you're right in the living room of that tension between what's the public good versus the impact to that property owner or business owner. Um what's the kind of the long range tension, what's the short-term tension? And we try to sort through that through some of our public input that we'll talk about a little bit later. I know that's something that you deal with as commissioner. These are the five goals that have really shaped the county's transportation plan in the last two cycles and it will again um be the framework for the 2050 transportation plan. Um our biggest investments is in preserving what we've already built, the infrastructure that's already in the ground. So we that is the what I think is one of the highest priorities managing what we already have built for our transportation system. Uh with our growth there will always be a need to improve and expand and uh look for alternative modes and and that's the bicycles and trails and um making sure that we're uh adequately planning for that demand here in the county. and then um starting to look at what corridors, what intersections do we need to start focusing on in the future with our transportation. I think many of you have seen this uh several times the functional classification system. It's that it's that um band between providing more and more access along roads and then uh equally providing more mobility. And you start with um those local roads, the city streets and the township roads where you have a lot of driveways providing direct access to homes and businesses. Uh of course these are not the roads that you're going to travel a long distance on. Um going to hop on to either some of the collectors and then finally the arterial system to go uh long distance to other destinations. That pie chart there shows just the percent of our roadways in each of those classifications. 64% of our roads here are those local roads and city streets. Um 17% is collectors, 15% as our minor arterials, and 4% is our principal arterials. This the smallest percentage, but I think it has the biggest impact of moving our residents uh across the county and across the region. Before we get into each of those uh classifications a little bit more, I'll just turn ask if Craig or Tony you want to say anything more about this slide. >> I think I think the next couple slides will kind of go through each of them. Then getting into the importance of each of these and what they mean. And I think it's important to understand that the hierarchy of the roadways and what they all mean because they all serve a different purpose whether that's a local roadway in arterial or a principal arterial from a county highway perspective from our system. Um principal arterials and minor arterials are kind of major classification and it kind of trails down to collectors and local roadways would be more the city and township roadways as well. All right. So, those local streets, we have about 890 miles of local streets. You can see the traffic volumes on those. Um, low speeds, again, meant to provide a lot of access points. Um, most people travel on their local streets less than a mile uh to either get to their destination or to get onto a collector or an arterial, often two lanes. Um, and these are the streets that fall under our city and township jurisdictions. We don't have local streets under the county jurisdiction. Moving up to the collectors, um, you start getting a little bit more volumes, a little bit higher speeds, but still 30 to 35 miles an hour. Again, relatively shorter trips. Some of the collectors in our urban areas get up to three lanes. Um now we start talking about intersection spacing where we if there is new development where we'd want to see that first uh intersection along the collector. Um again most of these collectors are in our cities and townships but we do have some counties that function as collectors. Minor arterials. Now we're starting to move up to more county and state roadways. Uh higher volumes of traffic, higher speeds. Um again, uh medium length, maybe 3, four, 5 miles or longer, multiple lanes here. Now, we're starting to really manage that access on the minor arterials because they are meant for mobility and higher speeds. We don't want to see a lot of uh driveways or uh road intersections on our arterials. So, we space that out a little bit more. Finally, up to our principal arterials, about 56 miles. again is about 4% but it has our greatest traffic volumes. Um again long longer trips very limited access. Um these are always fallen under the state or the counties. Anything else on the table I want to spotlight any of these roads? Well, it's import I think it's important to recognize that on the very bottom there where it says it's 4% of a system from mileage standpoint but handles 50% of the vehicles miles traveled in the county. All right, the next two slides are taken right out of a slideshow that we used to do a lot with newly elected and appointed officials through scale. If if you remember that if you were a new council member or commissioner, we would often invite you once a year to a training on the importance of transportation, land use, and economic development. And these were a couple of slides from that presentation. This really gets to that hierarchy and figuring out how to best uh serve development uh on this this functional classification system. You want to make sure that you're providing good local roads to serve that development. Often times along arterials, that's a frontage road or a backage road. But those local roads serving the development, dumping onto a collector, collector dumping on minor arterial, then the minor arterial dumping onto the principal arterial. So that's kind of an important principle I think when we look at a lot of um land use and transportation issues when we look at corridor studies. How do we get the the uh motorist kind of on a safe pattern starting at a lower speeds directly from their home or business onto a collector onto an arterial >> question. It occurred to me prior to this like our transportation sales tax we use for the end system not not so much for local why what would you I know what what would you say to a newly elected person why or say to why because they she wants the opposite she said we never spend anything that system. >> I would say it it serves our residents. It it serves everybody from our residents to our businesses um commerce throughout the county uh within and through our county. So, they're our highest level and most important. And as you saw the the traffic volumes and what they serve, it's it's the highest. And so, it's important that those function well. If those break down, you won't be able to get from your local streets to the arterials to get where to the principal arterials to get wherever you want to go within and uh across and throughout our county and and the region. So when we sat through these discussions and we would also have commissioner in 2015, the board was really clear that about I felt somewhere around a third of it came from outside of our county and the roads that did the most to spur economic support were the principal arterial. So it's just like Tony said, it's 4% of your system but 50% of the vehicles travel on it. And so if you're trying to support the overall economic development and communities that you were trying to build here within the county, the decision was to invest in those first, which also included Highway 13 South County Highway 42 and 17. So it's entire principal arterial system, not just MDOT's roads, but those are the roads that move people support the economic development of the community. And that became pretty clear in 15. And when you hold the public hearing in 21, I think for 22, it was that same decision. Thank you. So, we talked about the the importance of that corridor access management and and oftentimes we'd share with newly elected officials what happens if you uh don't coordinate that very well. What are the consequences? And you know, and I think we deal with those consequences a lot in our corridor studies, and it's a lot of retrofitting decisions that were made in the 1960s and 70s and 80s. Uh, examples of that is where someone would split off their farmstead or split off their parcel along a a roadway and and um get some additional driveways. So there kind of those small uncoordinated land use decisions at the time didn't seem like a big deal. But um as more and more of those things occur along a corridor, you start creating some of those problems. And uh often reach a point in some of our corridors where now you're looking at some pretty expensive solutions to um change the alignment of a roadway from some of this existing development so that um that development no longer takes access onto a principal arterial. Um it's closing access points. It's building new frontage roads to serve some of these existing neighborhoods. So, um it's that idea of trying to stay in front of that. And I think over the last 30, 40 years, the county has done a better job trying to get ahead of that, working closely with our cities and townships to really think ahead where um future access may need to be considered when we're looking at some of these small developments. Um, any other thing on this slide? >> I would say I'm going to talk a little bit about County Highway 17 and I just want you to remember this slide in in a few minutes. I'm going to refer back to this and then the other one right before this in which is kind of the goal of the hierarchy hierarchy of the roadway system and what we want to build towards. So, just kind of remember this one. >> Last couple comments on the functional classifications. So this is a map that you've seen before. Uh this is in the 2040 plan showing our principal arterials A and B minor arterials collectors county local roads. This is an important map for for our planning and it's important for the region and is the basis for some of the funding and some um decision making that happens at the Metropolitan Council. Craig. >> Yeah. And and this is you know this is the official back in 2018. This was a snapshot in time but um this is what's recognized by Met Council Mindot and then you know they they have to report this to mileage to HWA. So it's it's something that is tracked um and kind of shown that at in time in 2018 if I was going to look back at this map in 20150 how many of these roads would be turned back if any? Would 18 be gone by then? >> Oh, surely. Yeah. No, we've already got approval to do that. Yeah. No, there there's several that already from >> Y. >> Go ahead. >> Yeah, there's several already that have been turned back that are on this on this map here. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> Like that 56 out there in Cedar Lake. Is that I can't remember. Is that 85? I >> um nothing's planned for that right now from a turnback standpoint. Yeah, there was 87. >> Oh, 87. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, this is the the recognized functional classification map. But since um the 2000s, we've taken it even a step further and and map this future functional class. This is really important for us at a at a planning level to know what the ultimate kind of buildout of our system would look like uh based on projected growth and and traffic volumes and and where we need to alleviate some congestion and building a good north, south, east, west grid system properly spaced um so we can really disperse that traffic. This um gives guidance on how much rightaway we would need to achieve this future. And so when plats come in, often times we're looking for additional rightaway to accommodate the the future principal or arterial that it may be an eight or or a 17. Um what else is the importance of the future functional class? >> Well, I think it it's really setting that vision for the county and it's uh consistent with Met Council spacing guidelines where they look at it in rural areas. you you should have spacing every principal arterials uh as 6 to 12 miles and then in suburban um spacing for principal arterials was was 2 to six miles. So, this really set that vision of kind of that major north south kind of middle of the county and then having eight and 86 the middle and southern end of the county to have that vision to as Brad said um make sure that we're setting our access spacing up correctly where we are right away acquired so that that we can we can achieve this vision and have that spa meet those spacing requirements for that mobility this county >> and that's probably the most painful thing there is to do, right, is to go back and retrofit a road like county highway 42 or county highway 17. I think you're going to talk about it. But if you go back to the 1967 when they set up the metro highway system, they didn't look beyond the 42s and the 169s which then created issues for those developing areas that made it hard to preserve the access of the rightway. And so that's why it's so important to get out front of it, preserve corridors like 169. If that hadn't been on that metro highway system map, could you imagine trying to update that road in the mid 90s? It wouldn't have happened. >> And so that's why you have to look forward into that preservation. >> And and we've we've been a leader in the region for this type of preservation with this with this look in 2030 when we first had these future principal materials. uh with this future functional class. Um we the previous map didn't have 42 to 17 going north up to 169 uh in 2018, but we since made that and so we've achieved some of this plan here already uh with the overall plan to have kind of north, south, and east west. And we actually inspired Dakota County to start doing planning and set their future functional class as well of having as our county roated west they would have 70 um going west across their their counties as a future principal and then also 86 in their county as well where before they weren't preserving or looking for that that east west the way they're actually so we've we've kind of inspired that idea of having those principal arterials set out here and kind of achieve that overall spacing criteria that by that council. >> All right. So, that's just been a real general overview of kind of that big picture planning um that we do. And I want to start narrowing down to a corridor studies. These are where you're starting to look at specific roadways and starting to identify where there are some safety concerns. Where's there some maybe congestion, a little bit of bottleneck? Uh let's start looking at some crash data. what are the kind of the environmental constraints? Look at a variety of things to start looking at how can we best uh manage the corridor and or improve uh segments of the corridor. Um and then after you've gone through a series of steps just looking at what are the issues, you want to start looking at prioritizing what are the road projects or intersection improvements that we want to start focusing on. How are we going to fund these? What are they eligible for funding depending on the roadway? Uh how do some of these improvements intersect with the freight and transit and our utilities and fiber? Really trying to get kind of down to some really um more narrower issues to think through. It's during the corridor studies that we also do public engagement. And I think they're what I'd call more that macro engagement uh inviting uh property owners and businesses to uh help provide input on the importance of the corridor, how they use the corridor, what are some things that they notice traveling the corridor. Uh not necessarily sight specific yet, but just what are those uh corridor wide issues we want to start looking at as we go forward. C I just know that we're going to talk about public engagement, public engagement and its place throughout this a lot today. Can you give some good examples because we went through some really significant studies where that public engagement has um you know changed course, influenced what we do, that type of thing. >> Um yeah, there's there's lots of different steps when we talk about public engagement. One is at the big corridor level and and and uh >> Yep. Craig's gonna kick off the 42 because I really think that was the big one that kind of set the framework for a lot of other studies. It was very long, very robust, a lot of people involved in that, >> you know, and then when we get down to project specific open houses, you know, that is it's a project that's already programmed. >> Yep. Different engagement. >> Yep. Different engagement process and we'll talk about that at the very end. Kind of some different stages with that and when we're going to engage with them. So yeah, most of these are, you know, if it's at the planning stage, you know, or the design stage, they're already in our program, >> you know, but it's not that the public is necessarily out there, you know, looking at our program all the time. So it is new to them when they get to know saying, "Oh, we got a study going on or, oh, there's actually a project that's coming. I'd like to learn about that and have some input in that." So there's lots of different over many, many years period on some of these, whether it's a study or a specific project. So, Commissioner Brekie, I think maybe part of that as well is if you take the 169 study, each one of the townships and cities adopted concerns they had specifically that influence does an interchange go at Bluff or does it go at this location or that location. So, they play roles at that high level and how it fits into their community and where they want to see it. um you know is it a 59 or a 66 we're potentially in and so they play roles there the public and the local agencies I think Craig will probably talk about 42 but when we went through that study you will see that Burnsville's comments look totally different than Rosemounts and Shak did at the time and because of when you were establishing it it changed some of the access along the way and what does it mean for their corridor and their development so at the high level in places where some of the key >> certainly >> environmental and I think economic development junctures are um that helps establish that. >> Yep. And I think we understand that. I just always think it's good for us to have the examples for what we're trying to explain. Yep. That was the kind of input that went into the corridor study that helped us get to here. So, um that's why I was asking. >> Yeah. And I and I I do think it gets lost sometimes to go, okay, the 42 study that was in 1999 when that was completed. It was a couple years in the works to get to that point, but then adoption of all those agencies along that roadway. It's a long time ago for a lot of people. They're not aware of that. So, it is a constant kind of reminder that this was the framework and establishing the vision for this corridor and subsequent times other studies as big developments come along, proposed road networks, you know, things like that. So, it really does establish that vision for the corridor and then building off that acceptance of that vision. And I wasn't personally involved, but I've heard that some of the engagement that was done for the Bluff Bluff Drive overpass and some of the connecting roads there was influenced by some of the input from the business owners and residents and I think in a positive way. >> So, that's one one area that I've heard that there was some change coming out of those engagements. So if you go back to the corridor study itself, Love Drive was one at that point. San Creek didn't want an interchange. And guess why? What was going on at that? An empathy discussion. >> And so from a transportation standpoint though, it hung in there because it was the right place for the connection and you don't let that influence one tiny thing influence a decision the entire community state has to make. So I would encourage you to study deeply, reflect on and discuss with each other the uh community considerations that public council has not made. It's what you've done in public engagement in the past is not the same as it will have to future jump through those hoops. Um so I feel really passionate this is an equity I kind of thing for them barber the barber basically said this needs to pass in light of what's happening in her she referred to ICE so somehow she connected ICE and considerations for kind of bizarre but but any you're gonna have to jump through hoops right >> well and I just want to jump part of it is things change. Do these studies they're fresh to those that were there that process through the studies change populations change. We have our projections a lot of times from Met Council that they've had to make some changes there that you know like it's all it's all it's not a perfect science and I know we're going to talk about 17 but the more that we can just be aware of comms the communications that we're doing that that those closest to the studies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was back in 09. remember we did that and and I know the cities maybe had to sign off on them then but it's a constant sort of re-educating or I don't know how we do our communications I know engagement is always one of those hard things to get through public for a lot of years I was heads down raising what what no I gota get baseball hockey so I don't know what that mechanism is communications got highway but for all facets how do keep that as current as we can without overdoing it. No, I'm getting some looks, but >> you're not getting looks, but I think 40 years of experience will tell you that until it's in your backyard, you don't necessarily overly engage, right? >> I totally get that. So when a project finally gets to impacting somebody and when you're talking a principal arterial like 17 or four months, >> it's not about party next to it. Y >> it's about the entire corridor which is to commissioner's point the roads that sometimes have to engage on. That's a very hard discussion, right? And so even if every open house we had from the preliminary down to the final one showed the study and the corridor study, that's not what they're there to look at. And so it's how do you talk about the importance of that corridor and get people to understand that and that it just takes time and lots of meetings. Let me give an example if I could. And this is the difference between how something happens in an urban heavily urban area versus our kind of agreement. They want you to demonstrate how the project originated from the community. So it's not you think you see it better. How did this originate from the community? Notary, but it's a missing urbanary. That probably happens fairly often where there's a uproar of interest on something from the community that spurs something on. Well, out there might many people living there something for future, but you're going to have to demonstrate how it originated from good. >> All right. So, we're going to spotlight three corridor studies. um County Highway 42, County Road 17, and County Road 27. We're going to spotlight those, just kind of refresh your memory on them, and then also maybe uh talk a little bit about what you recall of the public engagement, some of the interaction with the cities, and then we'll get back to what our roles are. So, we'll start with County Highway 42. >> Yep. I go actually next. All right. So number 42 study was a pretty expansive study for Scott County at at the time. It dealt with Dakota County and seven cities um looking at the the system of 42 and and what what the needs are to improve 42 uh in the long term to be that that east west principal arterial. Um, it is the highest volume in the state for a county road over by Burnsville. In Burnsville by 35, it's over 50,000 vehicles a day. Um, and our and our border with Burnsville, it's in that kind of low to mid30s right now for vehicles, 30,000 vehicles a day or so. The now because this is operated by the counties, it's on national highway system. Um, usually those types of roadways that are on on NHS are a stateowned roadway. Um, we we have this as kind of a future turn up, I guess, to MINDOT is shown in our long-term plans. Um, but that's been discussed for 20 30 years at least. Don't know will that will happen, but we're continuing to see that as as kind of that that state that future state system. Um so the the 42 study had an access management plan. It laid out all the future accesses, existing accesses and what really what to do with that that system to improve uh reduce congestion and kind of improve the overall speeds in the corridor. Um and then also had supporting roadway network. Craig, Craig, is is it been consistently the highest volume county roadway in the state since the study in 99 to now? Like every year it's been the highest volume? >> Yes, I believe so. I >> I think maybe Cedar Avenue and Apple Valley slightly higher. >> Okay. >> Because it's it's actually a county road at McAndrew. >> So from that point to 42 is I think maybe slightly high. They're very close because Lakeville has expanded. It's made >> right. And nothing in the north has got become a higher volume county roadway on the north. >> There's not a non >> there's not a in the state of Minnesota there's not a noninstate trunk highway that has a higher volume than this like by a long shot >> including like 52 down in Rochester other areas. There's not another trunk highway. >> Thanks. Yeah point in history it was. I just wonder if it's been consistent. Thanks. >> So, the map, this was taken from the study itself, really laid out a a system of potential improvements in the corridor, or at least that would help 42 overall. Uh, in our county, it showed uh the potential to upgrade trunk highway 13 to a freeway, which is now uh 30 some years later. we didn't worked on. Um, and it also had some supporting roadway roadways shown and it also had the extension of 21 which would help the overall system in our county. Um, so there there were some things done and some things did not get get accomplished off this this map, but overall it really laid that that vision in the study overall to to kind of have those supporting roads and have that overall system and those improvements that are needed to help the overall operations questions. >> At one point I thought I had heard some that county road 10, you know, comes to Lydia. It was going to hit up with uh maybe 190th and cut through Credit River by that Cresty area on 68. Did anybody remember? >> 68 up to 21. Y >> 68 to 21. >> Y >> is that still out there? >> We have some rightaway reserve, but that's it. There's nothing in our plan to >> still sitting somewhere on the back burner that it could get resurrected. Maybe not in any of our working time but correct >> because at one point I thought back in 09 010 I thought when Mike was I thought that was going to happen first years there right >> there was some discussion um early on um to potentially do a piece of it but it wouldn't have made that connection from 60 up to there was some development right along 21 there was a lot of discussion about that that development never then >> okay >> occurred when I look at this map, the planned uh roadway segments that c catch my eye is this this notion of connecting 42 to 78 through a neighborhood. >> Yep. And that was discussed. >> That was discussed and there was a state patrol officer who lived in that neighborhood and that was we were probably what Craig about eight months too late before that development started to go in. But that would have been a very good connection. We were just about a year too late on that. That one and the one on extending 46 through Murphy Hanham Park shut down the Dakota County email system. You remember how those worked back in the late 90s. So >> Yep. And then this Connelly Parkway extension through what is now property owned by the SMSC. So of course a lot of dynamics in trying to implement these visions when you get change and ownership and development and all the different things that happen over the course of 40 years and we've got a a comp plan update coming by 2028. So I think a lot of this this is good timing and and um so a lot of discussion like this will continue on over the next couple years. So this is I would argue 42 is the most important east west roadway south of the Minnesota River and the Mississippi River. I mean it's 30 miles from 169 over towards Hasting where it connects in at trunk highway 55. And so the number of agencies the volume of traffic that it handles it's a very very significant arterial roadway. So since we had worked on that core study, we did another um kind of this was high the previous study was pretty high level had some concepts in here but we looked at the this segment of the study was between um 18 to the east to the to the county line. At the time, Burnsville was planning to build the six lane segment uh from the county line east. Uh we were looking at what our traffic needs were and the kind of that long that long range plan in this area. Um so we had some recommendations come out of it. Uh one was to continue to work on our projects that we had been planning at 13 um and other locations. Um we actually set up through this um to preserve a recommendation of the sixlane segment long long term. Um and we've been slowly working towards that uh is preserving rightway as as development has been coming in. If you look by the rightway around 42 and 27, that kind of northern um the north part that had recently developed over over the years, we were reserving right away through through those developments for future expansion if needed. Um and then I think overall it really got into what what are some of those those immediate needs and what are some some you know long long range me needs here. And so we had the 13 and 42 initially uh intersection looked at as a six lane. We were able to kind of through the study look at how to preserve it and set it up for that future six lane by getting the right way we needed get the right spot set that southern um curb line for that future expansion if ever needed. Um so one of the objectives going back to the to the um the initial study with Dakota County was our travel speeds on the 42 corridor. We had a 40 mph target in that initial study. Uh this is kind of a a little bit of hard graph to read, but uh the green uh was the initial travel speeds per segments um back in 1996. The blue was the speed in that same corridor in 2015. Uh yellow is 2024. And the hatched line, the stripe line was back in 1996 what it was projected to be in 2020 without improvements corridor. So, as both Scott County, Dakota County, uh, and our partners have been improving this corridor and and making improvements, whether it's been signal optimization or doing some improvements like at 13, we've been able to beat, I guess, the projection of having those speeds stay above that 40 mph for most of the segments. the one segment where it does not meet uh of that objectives on the far east end of the county. Um so that's something that we've we've raised it from 1996 in this area but maybe it's worth additional study. I got to tell you this chunk of road I was think Reno biggest little city in that stretch of road 42 got relatives 8 was trying to get 35E capital I always called that the longest road state back in the day but now there have been times when I've actually made it from Jaco PL all the way to 35E onramp without having to stop. I couldn't believe it. And that's happen every time where you actually get the green turn, too. But it is such a game changer. This is such a game changer. >> I've been on at 3 in the morning, too. And it's been >> Well, no, no, no, no. This is not 3 in the morning. This is like primo driving time. I'm like, "Holy." So, I was gonna say, Tony, kudos to you and your coordination if it's Mark and John and with Dakota because I had to go over for a solid piece, which was, you know, 10 o'clock in the morning or whatever it was. And I drove all the way from 17. I had to slow down at 27 and I had to slow down at 5. But other than that, I made it through the entire system coordinated. >> The optic counter helped other than that probably. I >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I I think I mean this I know this graph's kind of busy, but if you look at that and just pick out both sides of 13 in there, so kind of in the middle there from 18 to 13 and then 13 to 27. Without improvements in the corridor, it was predicted that travel speeds would be about 20 m hour. Looking back then, all the traffic growth in that area, all the access along there, and then you look at what it actually is today, it's a significant significant improvement for lots of different reasons. projects along the corridor, adding capacity, operations at intersections, reduced access just in that area from 18 to 27 if you're looking in that area. Reduce direct access um full movement access in several locations which add to mobility, add to safety improvements along that corridor. And average speeds that were predicted to be at 20 m hour are now 4550 mph. So they're at design speeds, you know. So, and then signal coordination. We've made a lot of advancements with interconnection and uh signal operations along the corridor. So, and part of that is coordinating with Dakota County as well. Um, so you know this I think graph is really telling >> and the 40 mph was set by the metro division as a target for 42 based on what they felt during rush hours was a reasonable speed. So that's where the 40 miles an hour it goes way back to some early data. I don't even know if they still have that in effect, but it was what people felt they should be able to move at, right? And when you're in the suburbs, mobility is important. And so that was why that target speed was. >> One more comment on the signal coordination. We spotlighted that in the most recent issue of the scene. So if you haven't had a chance to open that up inside, you'll see an article uh hitting the same point you're making. Commissioner, >> it's so smooth. I mean, I used to take the back door out to get up 35 and go up, you know, but now it's like 42 is it's not perfect, right? It's like you still have to stop from time to time, but safe and it's real option. >> And talking about volumes, I mean, those are obviously our busiest intersections. 13 and 42 is our busiest at grade intersection in the county. Uh 42 at 27 just to the east, our next busiest atgrate intersection. some of these others that used to be 13 at the 101 169 area that great separation now the 41 interchange now those used to be and so significant improvements there so we're managing these at grade facilities right now there's a lot of other areas all around the state that these would be grade separated and that would be great at some point in the future but managing them as atgrade systems right now I think I think they're going pretty well right now considering the improvements that we made out there >> and yeah we did all this work to to see extend the life of of the roadway and um as more development occurs and more and more traffic uses this as projected. I mean there might be a time that we need to do some other investment in the corridor but it is really helping us have our investments in other locations as well. >> And maybe to that point and Commissioner Alwick's point earlier about the impact of these principal arterial roadways. People aren't probably going to remember snaking through the neighborhood and maybe how long it took to go half mile through the neighborhood. But if they get on 42 and it's not efficient, they're surely going to remember that and they're going to pick up the phone and call. So our investments in corridors like that have a great impact. >> Well, I mean just in general, I know we're talking about different things, but the roadway system in this county, it's pretty awesome. I mean, you go to different states, different jurisdictions within the state, different states, different counties have different states and our turn lanes and all of those things. know we have trails on both sides which I know some but anyway um pretty awesome you know especially when I had new drivers yes there was those certain intersections where you're like I don't know what it is it doesn't meet orange doesn't whatever but it's just aut triangle and we've uh dealt with a lot of those things but like this moves really really well we have really really good roads sure there's not not many and it drives me nuts that somehow we're what are we the third deadliest highway roadway system in the state which I I know we need to talk about >> the county highway system necessarily and remember crashes are random so they are >> that's a next that's the next work session >> yeah because it's just like no these roads are good people are distracted in other things like anyway I know that's not a yeah I'm glad we're going to talk about that they're pretty awesome all right let's talk about 17 and the 17 corridor and study and evolution and projects along this roadway. Um so um let's first begin with kind of the evolution of 17 and I want to just pick out one segment and I know a few of you have seen something similar to this in the past maybe but if we look at the evolution in this just one mile segment and we talked about the importance of 42 as a principal arterial and 17 as well. So if we look at this segment in 1957 to today and go ahead and so here's 1957 obviously very rural there's eight private driveways out there very uh you know field access residential farmland and then we move up to 1970. Okay we've add another access point. There's about 1,500 vehicles a day out here. Still very rural. Not a lot has changed, but things are going to change pretty quickly. So, we go to 1980. Okay, we've now doubled the number of access points. Okay, so now we've got 16 and traffic's around 2,000 vehicles a day on the roadway. And then we go 10 years later to 1990. Okay, now we've got 18 access points. We've added a few. We are ADT is about just uh 5,800 vehicles a day. Um, and we uh were that earlier I mentioned that cartoon figure that Brad had up and I said remember that disfigure. So you can start to see over the last couple decades it start the proliferation of the number of access points and it's starting to look like that. And then we go to 2000. Okay, now we've got 21 access points. We've tripled the uh traffic volume out there. So pretty significant. We've added a couple city streets to the network out there. Still have the same number of private drive accesses. We haven't removed any of those. And yet now we're adding streets out there amongst all of this. Then we go to 2008. Again, 21 access points, traffic volumes, and that 13 to 14,000 vehicles a day. And now we've got some safety problems out there. The density and the number of access points along a roadway has a very significant correlation to safety on the on a roadway. If you go from 10 access points to 20 access points, you can expect about a 30% increases in crashes along a roadway statistically. So, it's a pretty big jump. And then you put that on a high-speed roadway, higher traffic volumes to handle traffic like that on a lane roadway without turn lanes. You got insufficient shoulders now. You've got dick sections, run off the road conditions that aren't too standard to handle that type of traffic, that type of constant interaction between people getting on and off the roadway and you end up with safety problems out there. So that's kind of that evolution, you know, over several decades getting to that point. And so it's at this 2008 time frame. Okay. In coordination with the comp plan that was going on, so was a corridor study on trunk highway 17/13. So this important north south roadway um across the uh the heart of the county. So this is a 19mi segment from the river crossing in 101 east to 17 down 17 and down to highway 19. uh just east of New Prague. Um so numerous agencies involved between the city of Shakipi and Prior Lake, Cedar Lake, and Spring Lake townships. Um and different segments of that. So there was six different segments that were studied because they're all in a different some are are very urban, some are urbanizing, and some are very rural. And so they all have different characteristics in what those are from we're ready for projects right now. We're managing intersections. We're some are in expansion and then others in the rural area are simply rightway preservation and making sure that we have our eye on the ball as far as I think Brad talked earlier about plats and zoning and lot splits and things like that. So, we're ensuring we don't end up with that cartoon figure and what I showed was happening up in the north that we've got were more intuitive as things develop further to the south and preserving that for future conditions. Okay, >> I just want to make a note. I know a lot of focus recently has been on the segment in Shakape and we're going to talk more about that. But uh even this month now we're looking at a plat at Lydia for a rural business park and we're definitely keeping this corridor study in mind and making sure that that new plat builds the first part of a frontage road that can serve then other development around Lydia instead of any direct access on the 13. So we're implementing these corridor studies in a lot of different ways. Um so in this area in that onem segment and then further to the north some we had three projects in a five six-year period from and including 42 up to county road 16 by the hospital. Um the the first one was the grade separation of 17 and 42 and this was a a big impact and I'll get into that in one second here. And then to the north of that was a four-lane divided roadway from a two-lane rural section roadway. So significant improvements in mobility, safety, access management, multimodal trails on on along the roadway. Of those 21 access points that I mentioned earlier, we removed 18 access points including public streets. So we worked with the city. We created a frontage road system so all those neighborhoods can get to the signalized intersection up at County Road 78. So there's different ways to get in and out of those neighborhoods with a focus on 17 as a principal arterial with mobility as the focus of that and safety improvements. We had numerous crash crashes on that roadway because it really was substandard for the traffic volume that it was handling, the number of access points along that roadway. So very significant improvements along that stretch. So looking at this 4217 intersection in particular. Um so this was constructed in the 201011 time frame. Uh the five years prior to that there were three three fatal crashes, numerous injury crashes and after that you can go to the next slide maybe. Um you can see we've averaged about a crash or so a year since that time. And the left side of that screen, that purple line on the bottom is your crash rate. And the blue line up above is your severity rate. So when you have great separation between those two, it represent, it's a weighted value. So represents that you have more injury crashes. When you have greater separation like that, you can see on the right hand side, we're averaging a very low number. Property damage primarily, uh, might be a very low-end type C type crash. Um, but significant improvements from a safety standpoint and surely improved mobility along the corridor through this intersection. >> We don't have 25 data yet. >> No, I'm suspecting it'll look very similar to >> these. Me, too. >> Yeah. This is one of them that when we talked to folks out there, Tony and John went back and put the full history in, it really shows what we were facing at that time. And the board actually for this project, it was such a big issue decided to bond for. It is one of the projects we bonded for in that 201 Yeah. >> Didn't Tony have like the highest benefit cost project? >> I believe so. Yeah. Yeah. This is like I remember when it first came online, one of the former mayors, oh this project and that should have been this should have been that >> and we look into it and but the reality is it shows >> that I know there's some value engineering to shorten this and that to save some money but the reality is that is a much safer intersection. the the the solution for this and the improvements in the entire interaction interaction between those two roadways. It used to be a four-legged intersection. Now it's a a two there is a southbound right turn on the uh on the west side, but the fatals and the serious injury crashes, they all involve the same movement. That was a westbound left and left turn getting hit by a northbound vehicle. So we've effectively grade separated that movement in which all of these injury crashes happened and you see that result on the statistics. >> All right, we'll spotlight the third and final corridor study. Andy? >> Yeah. So in the 2013 2014 time frame, I believe it was, we did a a study on Tony Highway 27. And as you can kind of see here, this is one of the few north south north south arterials that goes from the southern border all the way to the northern edge. Uh pretty close at least. And so uh this is a minor arterial, but we really treated it as a kind of principal arterial light. Um it's the only really continuous north south between um the 13 and 17 corridor to the west and an I35 uh I35W to the east there. So you can go to the next slide. Uh this was broken up into four different segments based on um just like how the 17 was kind of more urban built environment to the north and then kind of the urbanizing developing areas and segments B and C and then the more rural area and so in particular segments B which was uh between highway 21 and 44 in the C river area uh was at capacity as a two-lane rural roadway and a lot of the outcome of this was to do that uh initial concept layout to um look at what would be needed to improve that which was then constructed in the 2022 time frame I believe. >> So Craig I just said that because I think you might have been here but the city of Savage on their own built the alignment to the north instead of that old convoluted portion. remember they built that new alignment and then they took back even those old weird pieces of part of 27. Otherwise, we would not have had some of that roadway constructed. That was a city decision. >> Yeah. I I wasn't here at the time, but I had saw some documentation. There was an initial study that set that all up as well. >> Correct. Yeah. So, but it was some old zigzagy pieces over by Hi and some of that and the city on their own dime and their own review. You probably >> actually built that and then turned that over. We turned back the old road to the city. So, that was again a partnership in planning that set up a really good corridor. They didn't want a singlection. So we had a uh I think we called it a project management team which consisted of township officials, city staff and officials uh county staff and uh met for a year and a half, two years on on this looking at different segments and analyzing these and spent a lot of time looking at the the uh concept layout for that piece uh from Clearary Lake to the north to uh highway 44 and Savage there and um other areas we looked at we did kind of again kind of go through the process what are the existing needs the future capacity issues the safety issues what's the right uh right ofway needs that would be for this to preserve that corridor especially as it develops to the south um we worked a lot on that layout and that really facilitated the next project that happened as uh the county And I think it was probably around 2017 18 that we started to go through that preliminary final design and they got constructed in 2122. Um that really this really set the stage for that where those access points should be. Um we had a lot of public involvement. So the fact that this the timing of this was closer. It probably helped facilitate some of those conversations. People knew we defined helped define where those access points are. um as because there were some local road changes that did happen with this project as well. So hopefully that helps set that stage to make that transition a little bit easier for them, a little bit better. Um and then really focused on access management man plan and how we can continue some supporting road networks. Um the plan also then had recommendations for some improvements over the next 20 years either be safety or um you know asset needed. And so a couple examples of that looked at um highway 8 and 27 that intersection at some point a roundabout is recommended for that area. So what are those future as changes continue to occur what are those potential options that we can further evaluate as we move forward? Um and then also really as we went to the north it was also looking at that um sidewalk trail connections and making those complete and helping build that out because that is um the county systems in particular as you get into the Savage and the city's areas, those are really important to the city connections, the city's trail systems. Um and then one more uh corridor just to highlight um was uh County Highway 8. So there's actually been a few different studies that have happened in this area. in 2011 and 10 or no excuse me 2011 2012 time frame we did a study from uh highway 21 from highway 21 to the east um so the existing alignment and really kind of set that stage that this is a future principal arterial that created quite a um quite a concern for the area. So we did a lot of public involvement. Um we invited did a similar thing where we had a study management team consisting of township officials, staff and also included residents that were concerned with that area. So they work with us through the whole process and it really helped define what a principal arterial could be in this corridor. Doesn't mean it's a fourlane. Doesn't mean it's you know a 42. You're just imprinting down here. But what does that mean in a rural context? We helped to find that and then implemented that um in the segment that was then constructed um was it from around county highway 91 to the east to the county line there. So that really helped set the trail or the definition of what that corridor that layout would look like. And then um kind of then looked at other principle or excuse me rightway needs access management um all that kind of stuff sidewalk trail connections as you go to the west um to define what that corridor will be long term. And then other studies that have occurred is as you go west of Highway 21, which is the future extension. So there's been a couple different studies to look at what those alignment alternatives could be. That's really going to set the stage for the next work as um as it is programmed in the tip to get re constructed in the future. And these will help set that stage and start that conversation. And again tying it all together to help as that work is going on those conversations are going how it fits into the bigger all corridor ties to the east how we can make those system connections and what kind of benefits can go along with that. >> All right. Thanks Annie. So we've taken you through that kind of that big picture transportation planning and we've narrowed it down to the corridors. We've showcased what that work looks like focusing on corridors. run that. We typically identify specific road improvement projects and we start putting them in the tip that you see every year and we present on and we approve that tip. So now let's talk about delivering those specific road projects. What are the different roles and responsibilities? So the county staff certainly plays an important role in delivering these road projects. Um uh it's demonstrated you have all the technical expertise here in staff. You have a lot of local knowledge uh lay the land kind of the decision makers who who to engage with. Um the staff is managing the consultants. Most of our projects do bring in consultants and so it's just managing the work that they do. It's that quality assurance, quality control of the work. It's liaison to you and and providing updates to you on these projects. but also to the township boards or city councils or state aid managing the funding and leading that community engagement. So those we feel are kind of what the staff's core roles and responsibilities are. As I mentioned, often times we bring on consultants and they bring expertise that we might not have in house or just help us with with our workload management. If we have a a year where we're taking on quite a few projects, we want to bring in some of that additional talent here through the consultants. They bring their own kind of knowledge from different work across the region and state that often uh can help improve uh our projects. Uh they really have focused skills on design and CAD work. So we we lean on the consultants a lot for that. We lean on our consultants for a lot of the graphics and poster boards. So when you've attended open houses, you're typically seeing products on display that come from our consultants and ultimately doing a lot of the documentation or this preparing with studies and and reports. Now like I said earlier, let's talk about your role as the county commissioner. Um from our perspective, your biggest role is supporting that project vision and need. Again, hopefully through your experience with either the corridor study or the transportation plan or through the tip, you're um supportive of the project itself, you understand how it fits into that larger vision. We see you as the sounding board for the neighborhood um and the business community. We know at at a staff level often residents are comfortable coming to you and calling you and and providing their thoughts and concerns and comments and we know that you then bring that back to us at the staff level. Um we know that your uh role is to listen to those concerns and um then on a very specific action we know that um you are ultimately going to approve any rightaway acquisitions that are needed all the contracts related to the project. So, you see the uh evolution of these projects on your board agendas. But I'll pause here because I want to get your impression of of all of these roles and responsibilities if you as commissioners see things a little bit different. >> Well, this is always the fun part of the the job, right? Um you know, 17 for example, you know, you got a couple roundabouts that I don't think many people argue with there are some there's some serious safety issues out there. I'm just using that as an example and with transportation and engineering which we're not and so I get that it's just a matter of like Michael always used to say we're kind of that rubber that you know interum between what happens at the government center what happens out in the neighborhoods and so we do we do hear not that you guys don't get called you probably get um but trying to find where those where those lines intersect safety yes the county engineer you can make that call the veto power, right? Um, have you ever used that? >> People are usually in agreement when there's a safety issue and >> yeah, something's got something's got to happen. >> Yeah. So, it's just more of the communications. How is this best some of these more I don't know projects? How do we communicate that in a way that people actually see? You're right. Seeing I did I did read that by the way. U that was a great article as well. You know in the age of newspapers dwindling the social media u bigger bigger bigger but also more jaded in some different things you know how do we best communicate that just beyond our staff and city staff or township staffs you know government type jurisdictions. I know in some cities they're putting those signs at the end of a road that looks like it. You know, I had one by my house where several years ago my kid like what a lady it's just future like you can see the cutout of a future culde-sac. Um that's an everpresent reminder than some of the things we're doing but how do we best roll that out in a way that I know covers safety but it's also of sorts in getting that information out to the people that are busy living lives. That's that's the big trick andations down here, but how do we the collective we you've got a job to do and I know sometimes it's we've been to those open houses and they're spicy um and some are just like you need this open house. So I how to balance that but also get out in front of some of these things and communicate them in a way that gives people um a voice beyond studies that might have been done 10 20 years ago. and and try to find some common ground and still have an engineering say that safety makes so much sense in so many of these areas and also the nuance right nuance to every project. What what nuance can we add or what projects to make it still safe but also give focus? >> Yeah. Now, when I I look at the pre the board that's up here, I think what's missing in here is the community and and what their voice is. And I agree that safety is always paramount, but it is also taking I work for this, you know, I work for the community and I work for the people of the community. Um, but I think their voice is missing from this. Um, when I look back at like the notification that went back out to the community, it said, "We're here to we're having these open houses. We want to hear what you you have to say." But it didn't feel like it. Um, and I don't think that the community felt like they were being heard. Um, so I think that's that's where I that's where I struggle because not having the community voice listed here is I mean that's who we work for. So >> and this is a fresh topic, right? So because that whole concept we had what two or three open houses 17 uh well attended. I thought there was really really good discussion and we and and I was always saying, "Hey, make sure you fill out this little comment card or whatever call it little white card." Um, and I thought our folks did a really good job of like, hey, here's the why. And yes, we need to listen, but also we need to convey the why as well. I had a lot of those, you know, hard discussions where it's like, yeah, you can raise kids on a on a busy road. I did it. um so representing the why of these projects but also at the same time that nuance of what are we hearing what things can be done because some things were changed as built in those open houses. So, so there's the open house with the comment cards, but then there was comments made, I don't remember exact, but in in either a workshop setting or something like it where well, no, no, it's not for comment. These open houses, we're telling you what's happening. It's like, well, wait a minute. Like, we're we're having this open house. We actually have somebody at a booth or a table collecting, handing out and collecting comment cards. So, if we're not listening, what's the point of that? And then what's the point of being at the open house then? So, they do have a voice. These studies have been done, but a lot of things change. A lot of things stay the same, too. I mean, so, so both can be simultaneously true, but again, I think it comes down to that nuance of what things have changed, what things might change versus what the study says. And are we able to have that discernment and and build some of that nuance into these projects and still accomplish safety? We don't want to we don't want to sacrifice safety. um well what if we came in this way or that way okay maybe some of that stuff is nuance that can be added to projects you know giving them that voice and I always tell people like look the answer still may be no but we're at least have a better chance of telling you the why I'm a why guy like why um versus just like no we're not doing it so just because people have voice doesn't mean everything's going to change things might not be able to change statutoily or just functionally or engineering I don't know Uh, but having the why to be able to explain that no or yes is super powerful. >> So I I know that that public voice is is on your mind. So I'm skipping a few slides. We'll go back to the city's role. But yeah, I think I wanted to spend time just talking about this that public input and what is our format and when are we truly looking for input and when aren't we? I know that's been discussed. So, I'll start by just saying I think this is um a concept that most of us here on on this side have been trained in this idea of informed consent and trying to work through the public not not only on roadway projects but trail projects and controversial land use projects and just a lot of things where you have really upset residents. Uh that first is hey let's recognize there's a serious problem that needs to be addressed and usually on a highway project it's safety is the most serious problem and it could be congestion it could be other things but start by getting to some agreement that there's a serious problem getting to an agreement that the county in most in most of the projects that obviously we're leading uh are funded we're the right entity to address that problem and I think that parenthesis is important um just to kind of subtly hint that we don't address this problem, that's actually more irresponsible than the arguments that we're having right now about what we're going to do about it. Our approach is reasonable, sensible, responsible are those are three words that hopefully are the common themes when we're talking to residents. Um, and that fourth one too, we're listening. We care, but we still got to address this problem. Anyways, that's just some kind of foundational training that I think a lot of us in the public um public work that we do try to work through as we deal with difficult open houses and situations. Um >> yeah, go ahead. We call the blank helpful if you were to generically not tied to a project highlight where expect if you don't do what I exactly what I said you didn't hear me you know well that's not true that's not true in relationships that's not true on highway projects I mean it's you can hear something clearly and say no doesn't work. So I mean so it would be but what I'm trying to say might be helpful to describe going into any project where could be the dynamics of or differences. >> Good. >> Yeah, I appreciate that. I think I I agree with with Jod and D, but like I think we all me as a person as a as a representative, but also our communications, our little pamphlets go out. We can do better being very clear like if yes, if we're just going to listen and care, but that's that's where the line stops, we almost need to say that like we really don't want their input, do we? In that case, if we're just listen and care, there's nothing like I think we need to be a little more clear and like I I said me first, I need to be more clear on it because I haven't been and and you know, it's nine 10 years or whatever and um I look at community engagement a little bit differently than these definitions and we need to get on the same page. >> I think it's input into what, right? And that's the difference. So quite often we'll talk about here's the issue we have to make interconnections. So this corridor study, it started with four lanes, didn't it? Between 282, we looked at the volumes. We looked at the land exchanges. We're still acquiring that. We narrowed up the road, put in roundabouts instead of overpasses like 42 has. So trying not to build the best all the time, right? But what is it that will work in the short term? And so once that design is done, the input is, are we missing something with a slope that might get into a septic system? Are we missing something in some trees? Are we able to change or alter some things that might help a property owner mitigate something, but maybe not the design, right, Commissioner? So, I think it depends where you are project. I hear that, but most of the time we're engaged when we're pretty late in the project and we're going to these open houses and I don't I don't think we were looking. I mean, it'd be very rare for somebody to be, oh, the input is on my septic might be like, no, but I mean, that's not the first on their mind when they're coming. They're coming with a whole different type of input. Um, at least in every, you know, open house I've been involved in. But again, my experience is limited and maybe somebody should have said like I haven't been doing you any any help with how I've been explaining these open houses and it for sure. >> Conflict. I want to come back. Thank you. Conflict of perspective. Your perspective might be mobility and safety. Somebody else's might be economic development and behavior. So you have to recognize where the conflict and and you're not perfect. These public hearings will make the project better. You you'll hear things, oh, we didn't really take that into full consideration. We will got to do that. You got to modify this. That happens, doesn't it? >> Yes. >> I would say most look at at an at an open house and they come in is how am I immediately impacted? I I don't want change to begin with. >> I think everything's fine. I don't want change. >> For sure. >> Yep. but not recognizing outside of your immediate zone area, getting out of your neighborhood, getting kind of where you want to go. Everything else that's happened, you know, in other areas, you know, how 169 has been built, first of all, it's like we were the fastest growing once 169 opened in the late '9s, we were the fastest growing county in the state for a decade and a half. I think Carver County is maybe the the fastest right now, but for a long time because of that convenience. So, a lot of people are able to move down here and now when that growth has continued to happen, now I'm impacted with the next project. I don't want that anymore. You know, not recognizing that there's been other sacrifices elsewhere on my journey, no matter where I'm going. And boy, it's convenient to be down here in Scott County right now cuz I can get anywhere. 42 up 17 169 wherever that is it's pretty convenient because a lot of things have happened. So there's immediate conflict with that I think that is hard to recognize in these projects and all of our projects are safety. I don't care what the project is you know and we have pavement preservation projects it's also a safety project. So anything that we do is a safety component of all of our projects. Now granted, other projects they are, you know, we've got an intersection crash problem, you know, whatever that is, those are like immediate that people would recognize. Yeah, there's crashes out there. But so there's safety components in all of that, but I think people foremost want to know how they are individually impacted. And so the communication is both ways. We want to hear that for sure. But we also try to, you know, we try to talk about, you know, here's the 17 project that was completed in 2009 and to really go through this and, you know, everybody agreed to this is what we're going to build out and here's why. And so to help with that education piece as well. And a lot of it is it's uncomfortable conversations when it immediately impacts them. Um and it so it is the difficult part of of the job we do and I think there is a lot of areas that yeah we can make improvements out there and communicating how that is. you know, maybe it's getting out there earlier. I think it was brought up earlier. It's like, well, you know, people aren't coming unless it's like it affects me like right now. If it's two miles down the road, h >> right, >> I'm not going to that one, you know. So, it it is hard to get that information out there on a regular basis, you know. So, trying to communicate this with the cities and townships, other agencies out there that, you know, we're this is coming. It's in our program. We're we're moving toward that. We've now have a project in our program, not just the study, but we actually have a project that's going to hit the ground in five years. And so making sure, you know, and those people are part of our project management teams when we get into the start of projects and through design, we're including our agency partners that are involved in these projects. So they can help carry that message as well, you know, but still the point of open houses there, it it's difficult Yes, I just want to talk to this slide for just a second. So, this is staff and and the consultants that we work with usually recommend for the major projects to have the three open houses. Your first one is is probably the most of that bleer informed consent. Hey, there's a serious problem or the right entity to do this. We want to listen or we want to identify and let you know what the problem is, how it's part of the bigger vision and listen. Follow that up with that second open house where you're starting to actually come with your poster boards of some concepts, some designs, status update. Here's we are in the project and I think gets to what Leslie was saying. Now let's talk about your specific property. If there's some impact of this concept in design, whether it's slopes or septic or um you have chickens in the backyard, these are the issues now that we're starting to zero in on and that second open house and then come back with a third. Here's the final design. We're moving forward. Here's the timeline. This is like best practice and I know it doesn't always go this smoothly and in this nice sequence, but I think this is our goal to when rolling out these bigger projects, but to Commissioner Weekman's point, maybe we need to be a little more intentional in those invitations. What the purpose of is the first or second or third? What is the purpose here? And maybe do a better job setting expectations >> just right. I mean, until people care, they don't care, >> right? >> And we get that. I mean, I think that's the human nature things. And but that can't also just be and I'm not suggesting that it is, but like well back we don't need to do anything. I'm not suggesting we're not doing that, but it also it's like well it's incumbent upon us to try to do something a little bit more. Um, you know, cuz there was comments, well, we had this on our website, true, but most people aren't out digging through this stuff. Um, yes, there's personal responsibility moving into something, but a lot of these folks live. So, I I don't know what the right answer is. Um, I just kind of know what it's not. Uh so the more communications that we can do besides just having it because a lot of times it's very much buried in the website someplace unless we're doing a big project and then the project website gets lit up stood up by the consultant and then that's even sort of a different lane. Um, we've done that. Speak up. Is it speak up? Speak up, whatever. You know, other neighborhood uh social media things. I don't know. There can be annoying in and of themselves because, you know, lost cats can be kind of dismiss them. You know, when something important comes like, ah, whatever. But I just feel like more is better than less. So, so there's that part of it. And then just going back to the open houses again was most recent because of 17 you know I was telling people hey get your comment card and there were comments later here like well no not we're telling them what's going to happen what's the point then don't even do a comment card >> you know which kind of says somebody's going to read them I said we're we're reading these I think you've said one of those meet we read all these things out um so I I know that we do, but if the intent is not to listen, and again, sometimes the answer is no, that's fine as long as there's a reason and then you can help explain the why. But if we're not going to listen, then why even go through the exercise? >> Well, I think we always listen. I just don't think we change. But I'd rather not have comment cards if that's really if we're not going to change anything. And sometimes I just I'm trying to find examples, but we're like, "We want your input. Share here." I think we need to be to Brad's point very specific. If the purpose of an open house is to present what's happening, let's be clear about it and not be like, "We want your input in like the tagline and title of our communications." >> We we we truly do want their input. And when we go to these open houses, I we do listen. We do take down that information. Um, we've had several different formats. So, we have we have done presentations for our open house, too. And what we found is you do a presentation and you got two people in the audience that just dominate questions and answers and somebody else is sitting in the corner going, I I didn't even get to like talk or anything. So we found actually that providing as much information and enough people there to talk about the project, listen to them directly and really engage in one-on-one conversations because a lot of people won't speak out in a in a big setting. So we have pre predominantly gone to that and I think they have been successful in that regard and we have a ton of boards and things like that to really kind of delve in and get into here's how we got to where we are right now and now we're looking for your and I always tell people it's like you live and drive this every single day. We got a pretty good idea what's going on hence the project you know but you live and drive it every single day. I do want to hear from you and understand the impacts and what you're going through. So I no we we do want that and I always encourage them tell you don't even have to fill out the card here bring it home email us call us whatever you want after you have thought about being at the open house whatever that is >> but it also doesn't mean you're going to change design it's worth the rub so I'm going to go to pipe lake trail >> that is a decision he could make based on just safety and probably not going to change it from a three quarter but it doesn't mean they don't want to listen to what those impact acts are or are there some things we can think about in the design but it's probably not going to change his decision from the three quarter. Well, in that particular open house, I was there, you know, go door go to these and there was a couple there that just, you know, it didn't matter what just I'd rather have you block eight, you know, down at the like, well, it's not going to it's not going to happen. You know, this is a safety issue. There's a safety issue. And yet, yes, you might need to backtrack out and go down towards the holiday or whatever. But, so, yeah, I I mean, 17, you know, our guys were getting hammered like, hey, oh, they're not listening. They're not doing this. Like, look how you're coming at them. You're coming in with pitchforks. You're coming in hot. >> Threat to her. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's a natural just the human nature of like >> So, let's be conversational. Let's be respectful. Yeah. We want to hear um I guess in that one there's just a weird rub about the comment cards like so we we've talked about that. So, we want to >> and I I guess I I agree. I see all this but I go into Rubies or I go whenever and this is not what the general people think. So, we have a we have a disconnect of even people who we work with a lot. So, I'm just bringing up like let's fix the disconnect. I'm not saying let's change our >> go back to your blanker sign. To me, this is when it hit home with me however many years ago we go through this. It gets down to it's informed consent. Doesn't mean there's consensus on it, but people understand why you're doing it. They don't have to agree with you. And maybe 80% of the people right along 70 don't agree with us, but at least they understand why we're doing it. And it it's not a vote of we got this many comment cards for this or that. Yeah. >> And that's where we can help each other. I'm thinking this discussion. Yes, >> I I agree. But it's not h I'm like, let's work on the communication of those >> and you know, we can too. And I would bring up let's look at that term informed consent because I think since this model was made that term is used in very different contexts in government for a lot of the work we do. Informed consent legally means somebody consented. They had all the information and consented. So I do think we might want to change like it doesn't mean it it in many of our >> program but no in all our human service programs we use it but we got to not use it. >> Yeah. But this is what it really was about. It's people understand why and it's okay to move it forward and you're not going to have consensus. And that's okay. >> Oh yeah. No, I'm not looking for consensus. I'm looking for people to say, "I don't agree, but I understand why they're doing it." And I haven't >> been getting that. And so that's our culture, the partisanship, the world. But it's harder >> to get there. I I never hear that anymore. >> Yeah. And I also like houses, you know, spicy ones. I mean I've been to the you know where we're you know 17 open house works these days I've been where that thing is just spicy and I thought our consult our internal folks our consultants you know did awesome like we're were trying to handle you know every easel was uh had somebody there and talking to them and so I love that I thought it was great I thought there was some really good outcomes from that um just the comic heard was a little weird and just the the the disconnect potentially looking into them. But I've also been on that same corridor, same building, same open house structure where I walked in and it was a herd of Scott County folks and consultants and water stacked to the ceiling. Maybe not to the ceiling, but no one was there because it was just such an obvious um and probably a little bit smaller project. But I've also been to the one with Pike Lake and I have a friend that lives in that area there. Oh, you know the thing, you know, people read it maybe through their own lens or miss the word or we can maybe do better how formatting. I'm not sure what the problem was, but he came. Oh. Oh, we can get out the other way. No problem. Um, hey, can you tell this couple over here because they want they want to blockade and they didn't tear the pavement. Oh, we just have to go the other way. Yeah, perfect. Thanks for the cake. >> I know I know that the projects are listed on the tip, but I also think it would be beneficial before holding a open house that a meeting with the commissioner so that we can be either the champion or we can we can say, you know, I think you're going to get push back here or or so we can go in and and be your champion. we can say we support you and this is we can respond to the people that are there and >> and uh I mean it's on the tip and it's like you know there's still that planning that's going on and things so I think that would be >> work I know it's easy my way um someone's front yard or backyard but yes more we can be that shock absorber understand and the amount piece as well are but just thought >> your suggestion I think you know we haven't done a lot of big projects in a lot of years you've been focused on some other areas right and so I think that's something we used to have a lot more transportation work sessions if I go back in history and think through it and so you were more aware of some of those projects I've taken your note and a couple other notes We'll bring that back at the next one, but we promise to have you out of here about 12:30 today. So, we have session two in transportation in a couple weeks. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Thanks. Thank you. >> Um, and so two items here that I had uh added to the agenda because it just came late Friday afternoon. Commissioner Oric um saw it. I'd like to recommend that we sign on to this letter, but this has to do with HCMC and Henipin County um cites some facts, right? We know that 40% of the patients um who receive trauma, especially burn care from outside of the county. So, they are really really important to the state of Minnesota from their trauma and from um the burn unit. We also know that they train like half of our doctors in the state of Minnesota. In fact, when we were in Washington chatting about this, Wright County talked about how important it was from a burn unit for somebody like Wright County. So, it's bigger even than the metro. Um, what Henipin County is asking for is support to be able to extend their target field sales tax to actually help raise revenue to keep HC um the Henipin County Medical Center operating. um and they're asking for the support um of the um six other metro counties. Um right now this would be a letter my understanding that the six other chairs would sign and that we would forward to um the legislature um and to Henipin County in support of HCMC. There's also some data here that just talks about HCMC. Um, you know, there were years and I think Gary and Dave were probably the administrators and I don't think I've seen one where Henipin County actually requested funding from us and we continued to say no. But I think right now from everything I can follow from what I've heard from Jody, they are really in a crisis right now with the funding at HCMC uh loss of that facility would be huge for the state and this is potentially a way forward for them to um fund some of their needs. I don't know if I know Commissioner Breie you were in some conversations. I I think this really hit home to me when I was at session priorities and Monty Johnson, our hospital was talking to Ben Bakeberg and explaining the issue and Monty talked about what a fiscal hit it would be to St. Francis if HCMC closed down. Plus just the fact that um they use them for help all the time. But, you know, if I think I think the stats in here, HCMC's payer mix is like, you know, 70% Medicare and Medicaid. And because hospitals lose dollars on every single Medicare, Medicaid page, it's a volume issue. Um, they're not I I know there's been some concern in just the last day or so that by us counties signing this is this saying we want to, you know, have a metro sales tax or something like that. At least everything I've heard from hen county is they're just asking to their ballpark sales tax rolling off say keep it on use it for this. Kevin Anderson told the as board commissioner Kevin Anderson that they are pretty sure if they don't get this passed this session htmc will close this summer because that's just how bad now with all the windows are. So, um I know, uh the president of the hospital, Amy Jy, sent an email to all of us today because she said she saw this that we were talking about this um about that they very much everybody wants HCMC to stay open. So, based on that, like I said, Monty to Ben was very and Ben asked great questions because he wasn't in that thought either. was very um it it changed my mind on it for sure. >> The only thing and I'm have no problem signing this but I think Schulty's concerned or county commissioner Schulty was concerned that but if they say no to this and they come back and say no you're right the seven counties do need to contribute to this hospital we're going to enact way that you will pay for it medical center. um that's his concern and they you know there's valid concern because they've asked for us to pay pass so but I don't have a problem I think sign >> but there is there's a monitoring concern >> right no I think it's fair but I think if we think about it would have to be a legislative decision I would hope that that the counties that we have enough sway and if county doesn't have all the metro legislators and I can't imagine that we won't have. I mean, yes, but they can't do that without all those people agreeing. So, that makes me less nervous. >> What is that ballpark? What does that bring in here? >> I don't even know. >> I don't know the amount it brings in here. >> That numbers in that AMC packet. I feel like I saw >> I think we did have >> I didn't remember where I saw that number be enough or too much. I don't know. >> Like what what is our number? They must have it parsed out by what is it? Um, >> so they have a 50 million shortfall now to keep it in $100 million and $1.7 billion over the next decade. The ballpark tax was established in '05. It does not say in here though commission. Yeah, they're looking I think they had to this repurposed ballpark sales taxes talks about it's it's it would be raising it >> 320 annually for healthare >> 320 million but then to be able to use it for still target field public infrastructure and that's how they're going to extend some library programs >> and if I'm reading this this letter so basically um from the uncompensated outside. >> Oh, I think more than >> I think it's 40% of the trauma special. >> Is that a separate bucket? >> Oh, that's a I suppose that's a that's a that would be less than their whole thing. But yeah, you're you're right. Looks like a quarter of the uncompensated care comes from outside, >> but they're still uh potentially losing on every transaction trying to make it up on volume, so to speak. >> Well, they're Yeah, they're actually not They cut a lot of beds and they're cutting some programs and right now they're not letting people in from outside the county. >> I know it's a >> because it can't I mean they're ready to close down. And so in this letter um or whatever this letter would look like um questioning ourselves up for something that >> more shifts if the state kicks in which I realize that this has this has to have some sort of solution. The state comes up with all this money that they got from shifting last year making the budget look better than it is. It seems to me if they wanted to they would have come out need a sales tax wide. They didn't do that. They asked to shift and they're asking for support in that which to me says that was their intent or they would have come out with a paper. >> Well, and I think our letter the only thing we're asking is your support of the legislation. >> Like I I think it's easy to say we didn't support anything other than that. So that's commission and I decided the letter was pretty clear. >> We're not supporting anything other than that. >> Yeah. And and and I'm not saying it's not a fine purpose. I just we have our interpretations and then you get down to St. Paul and it's >> but they could have that interpretation. Yeah. >> Right. Is it much easier? >> I support it. >> I support it. >> All right. >> One other thing I wanted to just let you know. We received yesterday Tracy and I opened um the Shakipi Metawakin Sue community is asking to put the old YMCA building trust. >> Um typically we send a comment letter that talks about change in um tax. In this case, there won't be a change in tax because they weren't a taxable entity anyway on the Y. So, I'm just looking, do we want to send a letter or do we just accept this the way it is? Um, >> we have our kind of our normal letter that we >> we have a standard letter that we would pull and but I usually c talk about we're different than being a mil state and how it impacts us. In this case, I don't have that to document. Maybe we could talk about over it's attached to church and gonna have >> trust. Isn't that why I'm saying directly attached to the building? >> Yes. >> So you have one this is also trust. This is >> I would keep our our message consistent. >> Okay. Just have to adjust the letters. >> I mean, I think our letter is pretty generic. >> It is. >> Interesting. >> No, it's connected. You can walk right from the wide to the church over crossing. They're all connected. >> That's what I had. What do you have for roundroin? Well, I um have been meeting with the um well, it's past time, but so we can be quick. AMC uh solid waste working group, and there's been conversation about whether do we continue or whether we dissolve. Um I think uh what we've done in the past is have presentations about solid waste. Um and uh but we haven't actually done much to further solid waste. So I just need to know from you what your thoughts are if we should continue on or not continue on. I think we need maybe have a conversation about solid waste at our in our county. Um, I don't know what your thoughts are and if you feel that I should say to the AMC group, I think we're done or or not done and we should continue on with solid waste programs. >> Fred, when does solid waste come to Scott? >> April. >> April. So, it will be next month. We'll have solid waste at Scott Delivers that second meeting commissioner as well. >> Okay. I think the thought from AMC is we need to do something with the group or disband from the staff there. I >> think it depends on what value you see from it. You know, yeah, it's we're probably not at a place where we're making metro, you know, we're making decisions. It's hard to know, >> right? And from my what I stand for Kate is that there is a MPCA group that's going to be formed in the next few months for the metro counties. So I don't know if there's any benefit to have a AMC >> when we set up right Tracy the meeting with our neighbors just to give you the history of some swim club and things like that from their perspective. So that's coming up in the next month I think as well. >> Okay. I think you can. We're kind of like >> I'll go. Okay. >> All right. All right. Well, there I know that the co-chairs are going to be talking at the the conference tomorrow or the next day. So, I guess I'll leave it with them and >> Okay. Do >> you welcome any staff, >> right? >> Do you welcome any staff response to that in this setting? >> Well, I don't know if I was invited to that either. Um, right now right now, >> yeah, I would >> I think I think it's run its course. I think part of the reason we've tried to that we were part of the push to form that AMC working group was because at a district 10 meeting either here or out of Canterbury, there was talk about uh MPCA is supposed to get this metro commissioner solid waste group going and they were supposed to be doing that for quite some time and it wasn't happening. So we tried to get folks together um to just start meeting and invite folks from NBCA but not wait around for them to convene something. Um we could get that going. I think the level setting not only in the metro area but across the state and including the haulers and nonprofits and like I think it's been really good. >> Yeah. >> But I think that's probably all it's going to do. And I would say just just pause it. Maybe do what Commissioner mentioned with the 169 corridor coalition to say we've done good work. We're going to pause these regular meetings because we've educated ourselves. We have incorporated some waste of the AMC legislative platform. But we don't need to keep this moving just to keep it moving. >> Okay. >> Do what government typically does. I would say >> serve the purpose. >> Stop it. And if you need to reconvene the group, reconvene. But that's just >> thank you foring that. I I think that's kind of seemed like our message here. The one thing I would say is I would hope it would be reconvened if there's a threat at MPCA or those levels that counties need to react to. You know, their whole I I mean, I think we've gotten past that thread of them putting, you know, burning as a way lesser. You know, I think that's what that group should be used for is to reconvene quickly if there's a threat to the solid waste. What's that? Hierarchy. >> There we go. >> But that would be my only thing is that it it should somehow be ready to be reconvened for that specific purpose. >> Okay. >> Scott County delivered since we're on solid waste. I'd love it if that presentation also included like there's some feedback from us on on where we're going on a couple different issues because it is such a big issue. >> Maybe that'd be a great time to get it too if if you want to give us any like pre-work. >> Right. >> Okay. Well, I think organics is one like these haulers, Commissioner Brennan brings it up and how is Bel plane going to handle organics by 2029 when it needs to be planned and up and running, right? I mean, only a couple years from now, >> right, >> and tentatively on March 17th, there could be a workshop just on some opportunities that Blue Earth County is presenting to Scott County. And so we are trying to get that coordinated today, but that's another topic that we can all work through together. >> Wonderful. >> All right. Thank you. >> Any other round? >> I just have a question now that we're kind of changing our our workshop format here. It seemed like we used to put workshop presentations in our agenda. they were online and also weren't today. Are we going to do it different? >> We just didn't have time to get that one in with everything else we've been chasing down. So, in the future, I think they will be. Sometimes we just don't make >> Okay. But the protocol still is we're going to just wondering in case somebody asks me because somebody might. So, thank you. >> Yeah, we'll get the PowerPoint out there now for folks that want to see it. >> So, when does the video go on? Okay, >> it's on screen, right? >> Mr. >> Bob says that's going to be an epidemic. >> Well, that's what I tried to say in my comments at the end. We are getting bombarded in HHS with emails like this >> and Barb is probably dealing and Suzanne and Britney and Jamie with these folks, you know, once a day >> and so as people aren't the providers aren't receiving their payments and these things are held up, they're dropping clients who then have >> Okay. So, they're not just they've only got us once so far. You guys have been doing stuff. >> Well, you don't always get them all. sometimes staff that gets them and has to deal with them. So >> there are more and more of these until they resolve what we're going to do at the federal and state issue on some of these. So the >> what do they have the 26 259 million gold now for Medicaid the threat of the 515 order and so all of that then puts pressure on the system and we're being told continue to process continue to do your applications continue to move things through. So, well, and I've heard a little bit, I'm starting to hear from providers a little bit. There's plenty of people in our community. They're forprofit business owners providing these services who um are are falling way behind and may go out of business. So, they're mad at me for all kinds of things, but now mad that government is forcing them out of business when we're supposed to, >> right, >> when they went through all the hoops to get licensed and all the things. And then one of the proposals down there, Barb was saying, was for the county to to pick up the case management now of all of these individual cases for Scott County alone. What did she say? >> 40 to 50 staff. >> 40 to 50 staff we would have to take on. >> So that's because we contract out at least half of our case management and that's been allowed and promoted for all kinds of reasons. But there's a few legislators and there's some citizens who don't think the county should do that. There's some people who think I think wrongly so that that's how fraud happens, >> right? >> No. So that that has actually a fairly good chance of happening that that could happen that they could say no contracted case managers because it's being some people are saying counties are advocating doing their jobs by hiring other people to do our jobs. which I don't agree with online and I'll tell you why if you call me. >> Well, and in some cases there's also been folks that enjoyed having the option. >> Yes. Yes. >> Um the whole idea is that hopefully it cost us cost less to do that same job versus having a house. So, but also >> it's a combination of cost. It's a combination of options and I think that choice is good for people. But if we want to keep our that's right, that's part of that whole discussion. >> Well, it's timely. Of course, you know, session is what are we in our start of our third week? And are we all going down tomorrow? You're going down for to meet the big shots out on some tables. Um, are we all going down tomorrow? >> Three and a half million dollar. >> Well, I'm just saying this. I don't carry this. um we have these updated real time needs as we go down and folks that are listening. >> I do think the contracted case management is something to talk with everybody in our delegation about because they may be hearing it talked about in a much different light. Important for us to say that we think it's fiscally responsible. We think it's giving that county citizens more choice. Um we think it's a good I think it's a good blend like we have right >> employed case managers and we have contracted case managers. we can find the best service for these families of, you know, who have folks with disabilities or elderly people. I mean, these are the people that are serving. They're not serving, you know, you're you're either disabled or elderly is really the the issue. Well, I think another important part along this same lines that I'm Robin, but along these lines um for when we're, you know, we get our uh with AMC on the Hill, we get our time slots with our delegation and sometimes get a little bit outside of our delegation or catch somebody in the hall, which is great, but the more and more we do this um you know, they go to their resident expert so to speak here in the House side or the Senate side. It might be helpful, at least for me, to to along with our priorities, like who are the who do the insiders see as insiders on these particular topics so that we can make sure that when we see them, we're having these same conversations because a lot of times with our delegation, it's I mean, it's always good to repeat the the message because, you know, they're getting hammered by all kinds of different special interests and counties are coming down. So to reemphasize what our priorities are, which I know we're a regional thinker, statewide thinker, but also knowing who they might go talk to in the caucus to get up to speed on whatever those particular priorities are. So that because right, we're standing outside the hall, we see some of these guys and gals go by to make sure we're talking to them as well. >> Commissioner Brekie does that in DC. She sees Representative Stabber walking down the hall and jumps across and grabs him by the >> Commissioner. Yes. >> County call the police. >> She might have done that. >> All right. >> Press X. >> Yep. >> Are we done recording? >> Okay. One