Okay. Did you >> Thank you. We're going to call this meeting to order. >> Please stand for the pledge. >> I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, liberty and for all. Um, that's it. >> Nothing. >> Oh, I thought you were talking. >> I'm ready now. >> Okay. Um, the first item on our agenda this evening is to approve the city council agenda. >> Does anybody have any additions that they would like to make or subtractions? >> I move to approve the city council agenda. >> I second. Um, if I were to amend the agenda to remove an item, um, could I take an item out of the consent agenda? >> Yeah. I mean, are you removing it or >> I'd like to remove a from the consent agenda? >> Remove to discuss or remove strike. >> Um, strike. >> All right. Then with the permission of your first and seconder to A, then that's what you would do. >> Okay. Granted, >> I'd like to make a motion to remove A from the consent agenda. to strike it from the consent agenda. I have a second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> I oppose. Hearing none. Motion carries. Thank you. Um, with the removal of a from the consent agenda, did I have a motion then to approve the agenda? Would you make a motion? >> I will move to approve the agenda as amended. >> Thank you. Second. >> Second. All >> in favor? I >> I >> opposed. Hearing none. Motion carries. Um I'm going to be a little bit slow this evening since I'm also taking notes the minutes. Okay. So, just please bear with me. >> I'm taking notes too, Madam Mayor. >> Are you? >> Okay. Then I don't have to. >> That's right. >> Thank you. >> I thought I'd save you the effort. >> Appreciate that, Mr. Caner. >> All right. Alan, real quick, for the vote on the consented, I was a no vote. So, don't put 40. I didn't vote. >> You You didn't vote at all. >> I abstain from I abstain from voting for that. >> Got it. Noted. I did not hear that. So, I apologize. >> I didn't hear that either. >> I saw you wrote four zero down. So, I thought I would clarify with Alan. >> All right. Then, um >> And you did vote to approve the agenda amended. >> Correct. >> Got it. I'd like to open the public forum. Is anybody here that would like to speak? Seeing none, I'd like to close the public forum. Um, so we'll move on to announcements. Um, Kathy, do you want to talk about the announcement at all or read it? >> Oh, I'm sorry. I put you on the spot. >> Um, so the announcement was um coming from the parks committee. Um, they're looking for a resident who would be willing to power wash or use an air compressor. >> Yes, >> that's okay. Clean the center of the hockey rink before painting. And did you want to finish that up? So, >> uh, sure. We are planning on doing a citywide cleanup day on October 11th >> um, at 10:00 a.m. meeting here at the city hall. So, if we can have that coincide um either a couple days before for that power washing to have it ready for us to paint during that or um power washing that day so painting can take place after that would be wonderful. Please reach out to um admin city of birwood.com if you are available. Thank you. >> And weren't you saying too it you could just loan the equipment to another resident if you don't feel like doing the work yourself and that would be great also. So, we appreciate that. Thank you. It's loan or activity. I'll take it. >> Right. >> And Kathy, if you get no takers, you are welcome to mine. >> Fabulous. >> I won't be in the country and I have one and you're welcome to use it. >> All right. I know how to do that, so I for sure will. >> Thank you, Alan. >> The tip will cost you, but the print. >> Okay. We'll move on to presentations and reports. Um Marcus, our engineer, I believe, has a report for us. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, council. Can you hear me in the back? Okay, >> perfect. Okay. First, uh on my list is the lift station. Um payment number three of 66,69424. that be is 75% of what the contract is at the moment. Um so just a summary of where we're at. We tested the lift station on Tuesday. Everything went smooth. Pumps went in good. Um and then today we're Thursday. So yesterday, Wednesday, they disconnected the old lift station, connected up to um the force main and it is currently running and performing good. So we're going to run one more um emergency test of shutting the power off, watching the generator kick on, and then testing the draw down. But otherwise, everything's going smooth and we're going to start restoration. Um, any questions as far as the lift station goes? >> We have one more payment after this. Is that right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And then when do we anticipate the road reopening? >> You was there the schedule and with you guys? So, I'm I've been telling people at the latest it's going to be the 13th. >> So, it'll most likely be um on What day are we looking at that? Wednesday, the 10th. >> Okay. >> But I'm just >> cautiously 13th. >> Yeah. Yep. And Marcus, will the mailboxes be put back in place on the 13th or by the 13th? >> Yep. Correct. Yep. Yep. We won't do it until the roads open just so we don't have to worry about a little bit of a confusion. So, so yeah. >> Okay. >> Otherwise, um yeah, the only other thing on the lift station was we got um one resident um said that there was damage to his property. We looked at it yesterday and in talking with them um we have a construction allowance built into the project already of 30,000 and henches rather than have henches try to restore it back to its original condition because it's going to one cost what's going it's going to be a lot more to have them try to do it. we're going to give him a $200 gift card um to restore it himself. And we talked with him about that and he was good. So, I think every everyone else has been generally pretty pleased. >> And just I know there was a nonac or it wasn't accidental, but a non just there was a water mane break yesterday. It was hit by the >> excavator probably. Um, is that I assume the city's going to increase is there. Is that No. Okay. >> No, >> that'll just all kind of come out in the wash and nothing to worry about. >> Yep. It'd be just part of their >> Okay. >> excavation parts. So, um, the city provided this there was it was already broke there. So, what happened is is with the repairs, you put a sleeve around it and on that sleeve there's four bolts. Well, the bucket caught one of those bolts and it just pulled that sleeve right off. So all we had to do is just put a new pump it down and then put a new sleeve on it and it was back to >> I mean we had a swimming a community swimming pool there very briefly moment. Yeah it I heard it did not take long to fill up. >> No. >> So yeah with council's approval we'll proceed with that that next payment and >> it was in the consent agenda. You got it. >> Oh sweet. Okay. It is. There you go. So, library. Okay. >> Um, you're all in city business if you want to go ahead and do that. Um, I just have one other announcement and um, the Washington County Conservation District tree inspector, his name is Cameron Blake and he finished the tree inspections this past week and we'll provide the report when he's completed it. So, that has been done. Um, Marcus, you're number one under city business action items. Um, and I guess it's not your presentation, but was that from you, Ryan, action item number one, authorizing Marcus to attend up to two meetings with the planning commission? >> Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. I wish I would have put in some written doc, but basically the planning commission is asking for an opportunity to have Marcus come in. Um, there's a whatever your meeting rate is for that. So I would just they have some questions. I would just so I move to authorize the Marcus the city as the city engineer to attend up to two planning commission meetings before the end of 2025 at the request of the chairperson of the planning commission. >> May I get a second? >> Second. Um, all in favor? >> Opposed? Hearing none. Motion carries. >> Brian, >> do you know when that first first next one is? I know it was I think it was last week was the last one. Do you know when the next one is? >> It's the It'll be the fourth Thursday in September. So, that's probably the 25th, >> but I don't think we're necessarily going to send you to that one. >> Okay. Just let me know whatever whatever you're thinking. >> Let me talk I'm just going to talk to Andy. see when but I think we're Jen and I I think are also going to just sit down with Andy and um because of schedules that may be the the meeting would be October when we send you when we kind of have you come in. So >> yeah, perfect. Just let me know. But >> we're we're trying to kind of know the planning commission just has some questions on on imperous surface basically and anything else. But I think I would like to just get them to organize what they want for you >> in advance so it's not >> just kind of an ad hoc thing. So >> perfect. >> That way Marcus can prepare as well. >> Yeah. >> Right. Precisely. Yeah. And maybe what we'll do now that I think about it is prepare uh we'll prepare in September and then have you come in in October and >> Yeah. That that >> we can make sure that all of our guns are blazing by then. So >> perfect. Okay. Um, on to number two. Discussion and possible approval for the city to allow Bolton Bank to update the engineers estimate scope and estimated fees relating to up to updating the capital improvement plan in the fall of 2025 to reflect past changes to the city and adjust the schedule as needed. Um, the rest of this says Bolton and M bills based on an hourly rate and anticipates to not exceed $1,500. >> Yep. So, I just threw a number out there just to just start getting that document just up to date with most recent that eliminates 2024 and 25 on the maps. And um with me going out and spray painting the road, I'm going I'm been taking notes of what it kind of looks like from what I remember last year and if we should throw some streets around. Um there's a birchwood courts I know are pretty rough. And then the courts along Cedar. >> Yeah, you lit up my driveway. So >> Oh yeah, that's right. >> Um white pine. We were We looked at white pine and Halls were all >> They're pretty bad. like like the chords I saw were already milling overlays. So just comparing that and um and then just yeah just updating it um so we can start planning for the project. I want to get ahead of myself. Oh yeah. So I can just start planning for next year's project already. So, >> yeah, we're trying to be very proactive with our plans instead of waiting to the spring to do it, you know, over the winter. Really drill down on the plans, get our contractors in line and be ready to go. >> So, >> so it might look different. Your recommendation might look different than the sheets that we've been looking at. Yeah, the CIP is meant to be a a annually revolving thing as streets worsen in a year-by-year basis where the goal is to be evolving that. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to evolve it compared to just setting it up, getting blanks, widths, and just a general outlook of it all. So, yeah, it's just meant to be continuously just checked and updated. So, as you see um like structure in the road get worse, well then we might have to move from milling overlay to maybe some bigger patches or a reconstructor or reclaim something like that. >> So Marcus and I went on a little field trip. Is that yesterday? >> Okay. And we were just like throwing ideas around. So, there's a lot of creative things we could do and possibly instead of just focusing um the road repairs and construction in one section of the city, we might be able to do the bad parts in lots of places in the city, >> you know. Yeah. >> So, we have I think it's a good winter project for us to really talk about and >> Yeah. No, that's >> you know, get the most bang for our buck and get the roads looking well. >> Yep. So, I don't think that in any of the roads plans we have anything related to the parking lot out here. >> Yeah. I uh with my thoughts is is when we come and work on the road right out front, it would be the time that we would want to do the parking lot, but we can move it around kind of however we see fit. So, I know right out um in front of the sign it's getting really bad. I planned on a pretty good patch there this year, but I think when a pile comes through, there's a good chance it gets pulled right up again. >> Yeah. So, so when I think about the parking lot, it's probably the most used space that we have in terms of foot traffic. >> Yep. >> And it is uneven and it doesn't drain well. >> So, it seems like we would need a bigger >> project >> project on that. >> Yep. I don't disagree. >> So, can we make that part of what we're looking at. >> But when we do our budget talks, we can, you know, talk about that as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> How we're going to allocate money. >> Yep. >> Would this um revision also include whatever the plan budget would be for the 2026 >> correct >> project too? Yep. Well, I'll be part of it. Yep. 2026 I think is seven. or no? >> Well, on the the print out here, we're actually going by 2025, right? So, it's 67,000. >> Yep. I wanted to get an idea of the CIP update first before I >> formally proposed a 2026 project. Okay. >> So, or 20 year we 25 26 project. Yeah. >> So, as far as budgeting goes, you're going to try and get what under whatever we pick for our amounts. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Once we know an amount, then we can go forward. >> Yep. >> Um Okay. Then can we have a motion um to allow Bolton and M to or Marcus >> to update our CIP? >> So moved. Kathy. >> Second. Bridget. >> All in favor? >> I >> opposed. Hearing none. Motion passes. >> Do we want that to reflect the not to exceed amount? Yes, that was part of it. Not to exceed $1,500, >> right? >> Do we need to amend the motion or do we want to just >> Oh, I was reading it as it's written. >> Okay. >> Okay, that's that's fine with I'm not that worried about it. >> Right. Well, the record at least verbally just reflects that it was an update of the CIP. >> So, just clarify. >> I noticed that too and I just I agree. >> Okay. >> That's what it'll read in the minutes is that it is not to >> I mean, let's just say to Marcus, hey Marcus, 1500's the limit. >> I think that's what the proposal was anyway. exceed. >> Okay. Number three, discussion and possible approval of authorizing the city engineer city engineer Johnson to spend up to $10,000 for the construction inspection of Ty Schmidt's storm water management project. The estimate is based on an hourly rate and includes the following pre-construction meeting and submittal reviews, pre-construction site documentation, part-time on-site inspection documentation and project coordination and a punch list final documentation and final quantities. Would you like to speak about that? >> Yeah. So that is in that 10,000 I'm including what was already approved in that. So it' be whatever just a little bit of of above what you guys have. I don't fully know. >> We approved 7500. >> So another00 2500. >> I uh from talking with Lori, we don't have a survey or anything on there. So I don't know how much engineering is really going to be involved because I know we had a curb and gutter and some other things that I think are going to maybe need a survey. So that stuff isn't included because I don't know the contractor yet on what he's going to need. I would think that they would need some of that. So we'll have to revisit maybe if they do, but I'm going to try to make it work without it. But that's depending on how project goes. There's a lot of aspects. That's kind of me assuming worst case scenario. So that was part of part of that was uh I just gave you guys today the specifications and the contract. So part of my part of my time would have been on that $7500 and that's already included in that. So >> okay, >> be me going out for quotes and then every other part of the process. >> Wasn't some of this um that 10,000 was that covered by a grant as well? >> Correct. >> Yeah. Yeah. So we can use it as our portion of the match which is 10,000. >> Yeah. I hope I'm significantly less than that just on the size of the project, but I'm still learning the plans and so I I can't fully right you guys a set >> idea of what is >> it's an up to but not exceed right. >> Well, that's all my contract is with you guys is that that's what it is because I just know already. But yes, yep. Ju just so I understand this is related to the project that we're working through with with Lori Tella and the Washington Conservation District. >> Correct. >> And the the these are funds we're increasing the previously allocated funds. We received a grant to pay these funds and then we're also expecting to use some funds perhaps from the special revenue fund from the is funded by the doc association for this project and we don't expect any of these funds to derive from the from the general fund of the city at this time. >> That's not a question for I don't you're not involved in the financial details. I just want to make sure and just for people who are tuning in Yeah. at home just to make sure you know people know that we're not off off raiding the roads fund for for this that this is all kind of separate external funding to the city. This isn't coming out of people's taxes. >> Kathy, would you like to explain? >> Yeah, please do. >> Yep. So, we had a grant that was from Washington Conservation District that's 75,000. And then there was another grant that um you are currently working on applying for that we've been told we are very very likely to receive and I believe that's Rice Creek. >> And that one is for 10,000 which can be used as our portion of the match which for the previous one it was a 10% so that'd be 7500 which we were using for engineering. So the 10,000 can go towards our match from the other one. And the 10,000 is a 100% grant. It is not a um split between the city and the other. So >> Yep. And did you guys get the schedule? Is that in in your second? >> No. The schedule as far as our timeline goes. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So it kind of laid out like what we where we're >> No, no, that's true. means >> uh nine and 10 is where >> what what steps we still have left and what that timeline kind of looks like and rough construction >> yes >> start stuff like that so >> and then uh if if we do need any money out of that the parks committee has some of the special revenue fund is allocated for surprises >> um can we have a motion then >> hey Alan real quick do do we move to add $2,500 to the 7,500 that already exists or is this a separate motion or like we amending the first one just to add $2500 bucks or do we just >> I don't think there's been a motion yet. I've just got it written down that the ideal motion might be to approve an additional $2,500 for construction inspections on the TAMID project. >> Okay. >> Um before we do our motion, I would like to point out we have not we are fairly confident we will receive this $10,000 grant. if we don't the money is brook marked in the special revenue for that 10,000. >> Okay. >> So hopefully that helps >> clear up slightly as well. >> So let's just Ryan, do you want to just make the motion saying that a total of 10,000 including the previously allocated money? >> Why don't you just say motion before exactly what you're going to say? >> Do you want me to? Okay. So I move to authorize $10,000 for construction inspection of the Tymidt storm water management project to be allocated from grant funds primarily and secondarily from the parks special revenue fund. And this includes $7,500 that was previously allocated for a total of $10,000. Second, Ryan. >> Okay. Ryan Eley second the motion. All in favor? >> I >> I opposed. >> Hearing none. Motion passes. Um number four, discussion and possible authorization of $5,000 to Bolton Bank for the 2025 road project inspection. >> Like to talk about that? >> Yep, I can talk about that. So, I talked about this at the last council meeting. I'm just confirming that it's about 30 hours. Five 5,000. Great. >> Yep. Just total 30 hours. 5,000. That's kind of what I'm expecting for the main services for the construction phase for the rest of the project. So, that's not that's total. So, we the remaining budget for our design, I'll leave it alone now that we got this in front of you guys tonight and then we'll start off with construction. >> When is that construction scheduled to begin or is it not yet? >> Um, so hatching is going to be the 10th, 11th, and 12th. They push that back um to that that date. And then I am still waiting to hear back on the remainder part of it. So >> 10th and 11th and 12th >> of September. >> Okay. >> Y >> So will that be um at the same time that they're finishing up the lift station portion as well? >> So will they be able to tie in that concrete or the the surface for the new road as well at that point or are they going to get in each other's way as they're doing two separate roads? Um, I have already kind of figured out where Henches is going to end and where we're where I'm going to start marking. So, it should be separate. And the patching is just two guys and a skid loader. >> Okay. >> Without a truck. So, >> it's not quite the >> two guys, a skid loader, and then an attitude problem. >> So, it's a little bit minimalist. >> Okay. >> So, >> um, yeah. shouldn't, but I did let them know about the location. So, >> okay. >> I know you've talked about this before, but refresh my memory. Was the the crosswalk installation down there. Is that included again with that? >> That is included. Yep. >> Okay. >> I haven't heard from I think Safety Science is there, guys. So, I'll reach out to them to see what their schedule is because I don't actually remember seeing that on there, but they >> did ask me about it. >> Okay. And then so >> so do we h do we have all the signs? >> Do you know or should I check on that >> as far as >> for the crosswalk? >> They're all included in the project. >> Oh, okay. >> Okay. Thank you. >> But I think we talked about doing a walk through at some point to make sure we're not putting too many signs in. >> Yeah. >> So, >> okay. We should check with um Theres though and make sure we didn't already order those signs because I feel like they may have ordered all the signs last year. >> Um okay, we can do that. I was just asked by a member of the road safety committee um when the crosswalks were going to put in because there were two I guess that were authorized one at Grotto. >> Yep. >> So, do we have any idea >> when that's a gym question? >> Okay. >> Of when he was going to get the signs up. >> Okay, great. Oh, >> and then the the painting was supposed to happen. If I recall, he was going to do that after the roads have been patched. >> Okay. >> And after the lake links or after these signs are up, then we can figure out where the lake links will sit. Make sure that >> they aren't too close to each other. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Yep. Perfect. >> So, just I just want to be really clear. So the grotto crosswalk, the signs and the painting um go to Jim, >> but this other crosswalk by >> Owl is within the project. >> Okay, great. Thank you. Um would someone like to make a motion for number four? >> Is um so the number four is the discussion and authorization to Bolton make for the 2025 road project inspection. Is that at your hourly rate, Marcus? >> Yeah, that's at my hourly rate. >> Okay. And could you just talk give us a little summary of what you inspect when you inspect? um for this project while at the so orous roadways they'll have to come and spot the ser the utilities in there and then we'll have to have an on-site meeting with the utility companies um >> okay >> to make sure there's not conflicts if there's conflicts start mitigating those um so there would be that otherwise for this part of the project at least is pretty much coordination Um, and then the pay apps. That's pretty much it. I don't really foresee a whole lot here. Um, because it's just it's milling overlay. So, when they're when they're milling, I'll go stop by to see how the milling machine's doing. And then when they're paving, I'll probably just send someone to to if our inspector is still around with the lift station, he'll um just swing by. So, >> the Bolton mink inspector. Yeah. Yep. Yep. >> Marcus, if you're meeting with utility companies, can you ask them to look at the and I don't know what you call these, but these metal containers for wires? >> Yeah. >> A lot of ours are open or crooked or have been >> the handles >> into and that would be great if you could talk to them about that. I >> can tell you I'll talk to them about it, but I won't be like I wouldn't plan on anything happening. I I know that the utility companies are really overwhelmed that they're not unless if it's a gas or power, they're not marketing anything. They they just don't care at the moment because they're so far behind. They they've come to the conclusion that's cheaper to just fix it than it is to >> maintain it. >> Maintain. >> Okay. >> But I'll talk to them about it. Yeah. >> Yeah, that'd be great. >> Sounds like my house. >> All right. Can we get a motion for number four? I move to authorize $5,000 for Bolton Minks engineers to inspect and coordinate the 2025 road project. >> Second. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> opposed. Hearing none. Motion carries. Number five, discussion and possible approval of 2025 deer hunt dates. Oh, Marcus, I guess you're done. >> Bye, Marcus. >> Thanks, Marcus. That was the >> Sorry, just rolling right through it. >> That's all right. Doesn't hurt my feelings. >> Before you run away? >> Yeah. >> For our budget for total capital improvement um for budgeting purposes, do you have the number that we were anticipating initially for 2026's project? >> Yeah. Uh, I do reaction right here. >> And then, um, is is that still accurate for what we were planning on doing? I guess >> 68,000 is what we have figured um for next year's project. I think that's pretty conservative for for it. And then I was also planning most likely to work on some storm sewer maintenance. maybe plan for another 10,000 that >> 78,000 should do it. >> What we had planned. Okay. >> Correct. Yep. >> Thank you. >> I think that'd be conservative speaking. Um >> but are there things that we had planned to do in 25 that we didn't get to that we have to bring forward? >> Um the 25 stuff I just moved to 26. >> Okay. >> So that's what that is. So the 26 stuff is >> it's reclaim. It's Wildwood Avenue >> and that I plan on pushing back. I >> sorry >> I planned on pushing 26 back. It's Wildwood because I think that >> that's a bigger project. So, I was going to push the bigger the bigger like reclaims back and work on loan overlays that kind of hit some of those >> okay >> areas first to help our patching budget too. So, the 26 project um I plan on pushing back and working on others. So, >> like maybe like maybe moving 28 into 20. [Laughter] >> We'll figure it out. Yeah. Everything gets pushed maybe. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Just swapped >> because some of the years we have um it looks like there's >> some some bigger expenses. >> Yeah. Some years I keep the budget low to build up for bigger projects for the following years and then vice versa. So >> is that >> but it's a flexible document like we talked about. So >> do we need Marcus for anything else? >> Thank you. Thanks, guys. >> Hey, on to number five. Um, discussion and possible approval of 2025 deer hunt dates. Um, Kathy, did you want to talk about this? >> Yes. Um, we have I'll give a little background as well. We had a five-year contract with the Metro Bow Hunters Resource Base that uh this this year would be year five um for that contract. Um, with that volunteers go went around and received uh obtained right of entries from I believe it's nearly exactly the same properties as they've done for the last four years um for the deer hunters. Uh it's bow hunting and then um to enter those properties. The dates that the bow hunters uh proposed for this year's hunt were October 16th, 17th, November 3rd, 4th, November 24th, 25th, December 11th, 12th, and then if needed, a December 18th, 19th. The if needed is given as more of a weather issue for any of the other ones. Um, not necessarily that they will automatically use that one. So, I've read a bunch of stuff about deer hunts and particularly about with respect to the nature of the virtu deer hunt. Um, I'd be open to hearing someone with some expertise address the issue, but my understanding of the research on this is that the deer hunts of the size and nature that Birchwood performs have no more than a marginal impact on the long-term deer population. And so, as a result of that, I would propose that we reduce or eliminate the deer hunting this year. What are you thinking about zero dates or one? >> Well, I think it would be good to consider maybe a minimal deer hunt this year, pairing back significantly, maybe down to one day or one weekend to maintain our contract because we do have a contract. the contract doesn't require that we have more than basically one day of deer hunting. So I think that would be my preference here rather than kind of continuing this without you know seeing any real clear results. Do do we know what other communities surrounding us do this? Does anybody add? >> Um, currently there are no neighboring communities who do this. Previously, Mamemidi did. They were attempting to get it regoing again this year, but my understanding from the bow hunters is that that did not happen for this upcoming year. Um, last year I will tell you there were seven bucks that were taken. Um, and it is still the most prevalent recommended way to deal with deer by the DNR. >> Say a much bigger geography and with much bigger open spaces and the success rate just varies wildly. It depends on whether, it depends on, you know, how many animals were actually born. So, it's a very hit or miss process. Mhm. >> I I have never seen any scientific I mean I I've been looking at this issue for a year um researching it talking to people other people have researched it and there is no data that shows hunting deer at this small of a scale does anything to um decrease the population. When the DNR does hunts they do it over like 3,000 square miles. That's a deer management site. This is not even one square mile with our neighbors not doing it. It makes it just doesn't to me it doesn't make sense. Like there's no data showing that it is a proven way to handle deer. We haven't had any deer vehicle issues. There's multiple ways to handle deer eating your plants. Now, there's several products that work very well. I am personally I am not willing to put our residents and I know it's like just an off chance that something might happen because these guys are professionals. I understand all that. However, to me, when you do a costbenefit, the benefits to me do not outweigh the costs because if anything ever happened to a child that just happened to be coincidentally some random freak accident happened, that's devastating and I'm not willing to take that risk. >> So, I'm not I'm not into it. >> I guess for me, like like a a deer is not a birchwood deer or a midi deer kind of thing. And it's like the to my understanding the the >> willy deer. >> Yeah, the willer de uh their range is pretty pretty large like a deers is and it it I don't know I struggle with that too and I mean to be honest there was a time where I was on a walk and a hunter was dragging a deer out of a backyard. It's not something you necessarily want to see in a residential area. A little shocking. Yeah. And especially for, you know, like a adults one thing, but like kids seeing that or I I'm uncomfortable with that. >> I see it differently and I I absolutely understand where everybody's coming from because I love my deer. They're, you know, I watch them all spring. Um but um and I don't care about my plants personally, but I do worry about road issues. Um and I do worry about uh deer starving because we've had that in Birwood a number of times. And just intuitively, I know I see the same deer all the time around my neighborhood. So, I have to think that we are reducing um deer that live here. >> I'm guessing there's no natural natural predators in virtual for deer. >> There's no wolves. >> They're coyotes. And and actually, I dragged uh Nick Nephew helped me drag one out because it was hit by a car this summer. So, >> we still have issues, >> you know. I Sorry. Are you >> No, that's fine. I guess I'd be willing to authorize October 16th and 17th and invite the I don't want to necessarily have a town hall, but I would invite um somebody to bring in an expert on deer management um you know before the hunts after that just to advise us that that the deer hunts actually work. >> When when we're Can you tell us about like the deer starving, Bridgetette? Because I guess I've never lived here or experienced that where there was a overpopulation issue where >> Right. And they were really thin >> and I have to think that some of them died. I don't know. I mean, they just go into the woods, but you could see these deer out there and they were sick. I mean, you could tell. So, I don't know, 15 years ago or so. And if the DNR is telling us that we have three times more deer than we should have from a population standpoint, they're going to have a hard winter. >> The the other thing that I would say is when because they've come into my yard, I've I've um uh volunteered it, but they come in at dawn. They are they are out not out during the day when people are around. Deer typ typically aren't daytime animals anyway, >> right? >> Yeah. Well, >> oh yeah, they do. >> You know, some problems >> there aren't man-made solutions, too. So, I'm >> sorry. I'm a hard no on it until I see data that tells me otherwise. I just don't feel like I'm like 6040. No, essentially for the reasons I listed. I don't like getting in residential neighborhood. I don't want my daughter exposed to dead animals getting dragged out like in that in that way. You know, I have no problem hunting or anything like that. Um but also I I don't feel like I have enough data to make a real decision regarding this. I don't know anything about deer herds. Are they even herd? Are they even called herds? Like I don't >> they usually up in urban settings. If they are given the space, they will yard up and congregate in the winter. >> That's why they call it yarding up, right? And so you see these little pockets, these little family units. You know, I just live in Delwood, so I see them too all year long. >> You know, the weak and the sick are usually weak and sick because they've had a tough summer, so there is not a lot of forage. And then that's combined usually with a tough winter where there's just too much snow pack. So there's absolutely nothing to nibble on and the weak ones don't make it. >> Do we get do we get a count of >> I did a a survey and they last year it was 190 deer. The DNR counted decided not to do their hunt because it doesn't make a difference and people were not it's a residential area and we we are all residential. We don't even have wide open spaces. It's just to me to hunt in a residential area itself doesn't make sense. It's just go hunt. If you want to hunt something, go out into the country and hunt. Nothing else to say about it. So I want to make a motion. anybody or do you want to continue to to discuss? >> Well, maybe we should table this to October and >> No, >> because the dates are already set. >> I guess how what have All right. Well, then let's >> I'm still making a motion that we approve it. >> So, go ahead and do that. >> I'll second it. to approve all all these dates all the day we finish our contract. >> I'd like a roll call vote, please. >> So, just so the record's clear, the motion is to approve all dates pursuant to the staff >> to the contract um for October 16th, 17th, November 3rd. >> To be clear, >> the contract doesn't require any number of dates or any specific dates. It requires an agreement on at least one date. So, we could certainly pair this down to one date or one weekend and still be well within the contract. Um, having said that, there's it sounds to me like there's a motion on the table. >> I believe that Kathy moved all the dates and Bridget, >> it's most effective. >> That's the motion. >> Multiple dates. >> What risk do we have of breaking a contract? >> Well, the contract just says, "Thou shalt, you know, let us hunt, right?" And so you do need to approve >> some dates. Um they're not getting paid anything. And so there's really very I don't know how you'd ever make an argument of damages when it's just an opportunity to hunt some deer with your boat. >> I think the extent of damages would be some sort of a a stople where they purchase some insurance relying on the contract and they would want but just doesn't seem like it would amount to very much to me. But, you know, contract is an issue kind of saying let's authorize one date. But, like I say, I think there's a, you know, a motion was made here. So, >> and if it's the last year under the contract, which I think it is, >> it is, >> then it does make some sense to honor the agreement and pick a date and let them come out. And doesn't say it has to be all of them. >> That's not the motion, though. >> And the motion is for all of them at this point. Mhm. Okay, we have a motion on the table and we have a second. You want a roll call vote? >> I'd like a roll call vote, please. >> So, the motion is to approve the contract for all the dates. Uh, how many date? One, two, three, four, five weekends. Correct. >> Five weekends. >> Okay. >> Five hunts. >> So, it's five hunts. >> Five hunts. >> Six weekends. >> Uh, they are not weekends. Fridays and Saturdays or it's it's six. It's 12 days total. >> Six two-day periods. >> Four. >> Not count. >> Oh, five five two. One, two, three, four. >> Two day periods. >> Sorry, >> I'm looking at 10 days. Okay. Weekends are not. Um I'm sorry. Uh Kathy, >> hi Jenkins. >> Nay. I go last. >> I go last. >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> Quickly. >> Abstain. >> I think you I think you have to give a reason. You can't just abstain on these things. >> I can I can not vote on something. >> Yes, you can. >> Our bylaws, you have to vote. You >> unless you haveain for a conflict. >> Yeah. Unless there's a conflict there, it's important to say yes or no. >> Come on, man. Pony up. What say you? >> Well, give me a half hour. >> We'll come back to you. >> Bridget, come back to >> I say I. But is there an opportunity to reach more of a consensus if we reduce the dates and change the motion? >> Probably easiest just to make another motion if this one fails. >> Okay. >> Or clean in the minutes. >> Just let us know when you're ready. >> I will. Do do you want to like Should we take five minutes here? >> Yeah. You want to take a break while you >> take five minutes? Let you serve. >> Okay. Let's go into recess for 5 minutes, please. >> Oh, yeah. Can we Alan? Can we recess in the middle of a vote? >> We can finish you. >> Okay. We cannot >> recess at 7:34. >> All right. No discussion about this vote during recess. >> Five minute recess. Council is back in session. Um, as a recap, we are taking a vote on the deer hunt contract. We have uh we're taking a a vote by roll. What do you call that? >> Roll call vote. >> Roll call vote. Sorry. Right. So, um Kathy has voted I. Henkins is a nay. Bridget is an I. Mr. Eley >> nay. >> Nay. And I am also a nay. >> So motion fails. >> Someone like to make a different motion relating to the bow hunt. >> I will make a motion to approve. >> You said one day. one one set of days, October 16th through 17th, I believe, was the preferred one. >> I'll second that. >> So, the motion on the table is to reduce the hunt to October 16th and 17th. We have um Kathy making the motion and Mr. Hen seconding it. >> Um would you like to do a roll call vote on this as well? >> No. >> Okay. All in favor? >> I opposed. >> I'm opposed. >> So, do I say nay? Motion passes. >> Four to one. >> You did a really nice job with that. >> Well, as us we did. >> It's because we're um respectful of each other. >> No, but I I mean I just think we should take a minute to say we did everything. >> Good job, guys. >> Nice job of that. And look, we can still be friends. How about that? Um, okay. Number six. Um, >> I think >> Oh, Kathy, I wanted to thank you too for all the work you did on this. I know it's a lot of work. >> It is a lot. I hope you >> um >> That's all. Thank you. So, just to be clear, we approve resolution authorizing the dates of the 2025 deer hunt pursuant to the contract with Metro Bow Hunters Base for October 16th and 17th, striking the remaining dates on the resolution. Is that basically how you have it, Alan, or do we need to redo it? >> Yeah, I just have that the authorization was for just those two dates. I will reach out to the bow hunters and confirm that they still want to do it. >> And then we need to pass another resolution suspending the >> correct that's uh in here. >> Just just want to make sure we don't miss it here. What's that? >> Yes. Um in I believe it's page 13. >> Um no, sorry. >> 17. >> 17. Thank you. Um Um, I am moving to Well, I'll explain what this is. Uh, we have an ordinance within Birwood Village that does not allow any hunting to allow the bow hunters to do their hunting. We have to suspend that for the duration of the hunt, which would be October 16th and 17th. Um, based on what we had just approved. So, I make a motion to approve a suspension of our uh resolution suspending the city ordinance section 609.02 for special bow hunt for the dates October 16th and 17th to allow that hunt. >> Made the motion. Um, can I get a second, please? >> Second. >> Second. All in favor? >> I >> opposed nay. >> One. >> One. >> Motion passes. I'm sorry. >> And we'll make sure the minutes reflect the uh numbers of the resolutions because they haven't been assigned yet. >> Okay. Thank you. Okay. Um are we good with that then, Kathy? Do you have everything you need? >> Let me make sure. Okay. >> Okay. Before we move, >> I got to look at my paperwork here. Okay. All [Music] right, we did the authorization and suspension and yes, I do have great. Thank you. Um, let's move on to number six. Um, oh, Kathy, do you want to do this one too? uh discussion and scheduling of a work session to discuss Pre Lake and Halls Marsh. >> Sure. >> Um a little background info uh for the last two and a half years now. Um myself, Allan and Marcus have been working on um an uh MOA with Rice Creek Watershed District for the um draining of Prebby Lake, which is a lake uh in White Bear Township. White Bear >> um white sorry White Bear proper proper um to drain that down into Halls Marsh to allow the marsh to marsh and clean the water before it ends up in White Bear Lake. Um which would allow Prebby Lake to be fully dredged, cleaned, etc. Um, there has been a pipe that was attached in the 1970s and Birwood has been putting in place several requirements to allow that to happen. Um, we just finished up the MOA, um, based on input from White Bear Lake, uh, Mameidi, Birwood Village, Rice Creek Watershed District. There's another one. Who am I missing? Yeah, township >> township um to let this happen because it does cross several um groups and then obviously it'd end up in White Bear. So all the surrounding communities potentially would be involved um with that. Uh since we are now at the stage where we'd need to sign something, we wanted to bring that in front of the council to discuss what has gone on in that two and a half years and all the agreements and everything. and then also u discuss potential options that we have for um signing up for grants etc or other cleaning methods to restore the marsh after this cleanup um because that was some of the portions of the agreement that we have put in. So I wanted to set up a work session to discuss that with the council before we needed to vote on that. Um, so we'd have the opportunity to discuss any potential changes. >> Okay. >> You have a date that you're thinking. >> Um, I know you are gone for a while. Um, so >> thank you. >> I wanted to make sure it was after that date if possible. Yeah. >> Um, I was hoping for September. >> Yep. Um, so I was thinking September 30th because it does not look like there's anything automatically scheduled that day because it is a fifth Tuesday. >> Perfect. >> For me, if for everybody else, >> the 30th >> Tuesday, >> yes, it's a Tuesday, which is our normal meeting date, and figured that if we did it at 6:30, it should allow. >> I don't see anything on my calendar. 5050 at this point, but I can commit to getting briefed on it afterwards if if it works for everybody else. >> Completely fine. Um I was planning on inviting a couple of the residents who have been heavily involved over that time frame too. >> Work around you. >> I'm sorry. >> It's okay. >> I don't know. Like at this point in time, I might or I might not be able to. I'm waiting for >> a meeting possibly. >> Okay. I >> was just I was just Bridget, we can work around her. Well, >> would a different date work better? I >> sure. Yeah. >> Or else you guys can just follow up >> after and like just >> the 30th works for me. You can just you and Kathy can just work together and if the 30th works to for you, we'll keep it. And if it doesn't >> and I'll follow up. >> We'll we'll do go through the regular special meeting scheduling thing. >> Or if you guys want to meet without me, that's okay. I I think I'm good on it. >> Well, I was planning on inviting Tom. um as well from and then >> um >> John Waller >> John Waller um I will invite him as well but Tom what is Tom's last name >> from Rice Creek >> from Rice Creek Water District um >> okay >> because he asked if if we would like him there for any answering questions etc that we can definitely have that >> yeah he was nice enough to offer that up >> and then there's a couple other residents who are interested in attending as well so I would like to try and pick a date if possible So, >> so you're thinking 6:30 on September 30th? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> But I can move it if it does not work for everybody. I don't know what Ryan, you haven't mentioned. >> I I'm >> You're okay. >> Good. October. It's a little dicey for me. So, as long as not in October, >> trying as close to staying out of it as possible. And if a date works better earlier in September for the rest of you, that's fine. Um, I can also just catch up later. >> Okay. >> Okay. Whatever you all decide, we can do the 30th preliminarily and then >> you let us know. Okay. >> Yeah, I will. >> So, the 16th is a perks committee meeting. I don't think there's one on the 23rd, which would be the fourth Tuesday if that one's a preference. I >> We're doing the 30th. >> That's Yeah, I think right. We're saying the 30th. >> The 30th is okay. Okay. >> Yeah. And then I will let's tend to let's plan on the 30th and if I can't go, then I will let you know and I'll f I'll find a way to follow up. >> Okay. Do we need a motion or anything or are we just >> No, I was just scheduling it, but we will need to post, right? >> Yeah, we'll make sure an agenda goes out and gets posted in the box >> and then >> sit in the box and posted online >> 6:30 on September 30th. Right. >> Thanks, Kathy. >> Again, thank you for all your work on that. >> Thank you. >> Those are big time something. >> That's why I signed up to be a council person. I'm okay signing that one down the road here sometime. >> W Okay, now we're on to what has really brought us here tonight, which is >> the star of the show. >> Um, so by law, we need to pass a preliminary budget and have it submitted by September 30th. >> Can we just do a CR, Alan? >> No. So >> what you're thinking, but no. >> So um >> man, >> we have worked uh Marcia was going to try to join us. She had another meeting this evening. Marcia is our treasurer. Uh she has put together some figures for us. Um, so if you want to look at the one I just put on your table, it copy Alan. >> Yeah. Okay. It's pretty blurry in the agenda. >> I've heard. >> Are we looking? >> Okay. >> The sheets that were in there, right? >> Yes. >> The two page. >> And let me know if you want me to put them on the Elmo. >> I have some questions. >> I don't know if I can answer. >> No. Uh, so go ahead. What's your question? >> Um, I think actually Kathy asked this last time. Um, and I'll ask it again. The building under on the first page, the fourth line down, building permits. >> Oh. Mhm. >> Our actual receipts are 11720. >> Mhm. And so I don't it seems like we we generally collect way more in building permit revenue than that. Um or it just makes me think we're not tracking it correctly or something cuz like the budget is 90K. >> Looks like in 2023 we did 85K. In 2024 we did 60K. So far this year we've done >> 12K. So that it just seems like it's quite a bit lower. And that's granted. That's a receipt. >> Kathy, do you want to handle that answer? >> Yeah. So, I had reached out to Marsha on that. Um, that's the one I had asked uh to be followed up with at our last council meeting as well. And she had stated that I can pull up her email here. >> She contacted Jack. Yes, she reached out to Jack and that is accurate um for the amounts we've actually collected because pre the previous two years, which is kind of what we're looking at, we had all those hail storms that came through that people had to replace their sightings and roofs. So, we had a significant number of almost everyone had >> a permit >> um during that time frame. If you look back further um from the proposed budget we had gotten in 2021 um the lowest we've gotten in the last 5 years though was 50,000 so it still seems low >> but that >> we are at the end of the >> that doesn't still I know still doesn't make sense strange to me that's why >> did people do a lot during co and maybe are done snapback >> I mean was it so it was Jack Kramer that gave gave you this answer. >> Jack Kramer confirmed to Marsha and Marcia confirmed to us >> cuz I mean I wonder if something just wasn't getting bucketed there or something. >> I don't know the answer to that question unfortunately. >> But then >> Jack's um >> Jack's payments come out of that. >> But we don't pay him separately. His always comes out of the building permit. >> Right. But but his should be less >> as well if in fact we're doing less permits. >> Correct. But the planners is a set fee. So that would not change. So >> um I understood he gets like 25% of the permit fees. >> I believe that's right. >> Yeah, >> it's more than that. It's we I have to go back. I think he gets there's the way the permit fees are done. There's two components to a permit fee. There's a permit fee and a plan review fee. plan review fee. So, you pay the permit fee and then you pay an additional 75% of the permit fee for plan review. Not all plans have reviews. >> I believe all of the plan review fee goes to Jack and portion and I don't remember what it is. I thought it was more than 25% of the permit fee goes to Jack, but >> I thought it was too. I thought it was like 50. Yeah, that sounds right to me, but I'd have to go look it up to be sure. >> I'll take a peek here to see what I can find for you. >> Um, >> for budget purposes, your hard number is what you're going to bring in. >> Yeah. Yep, that's right. >> So, that 11 Wait, it was 1069. It the 11720 should be what our number is. >> This is only building permits going to Jack. It's probably not that big of a deal because it's not going to necessarily affect the levy that much. It's kind of a we take a cut, but most of it just is kind of a pass through. Yeah. >> 67900 >> because really there's not much administration that's not Mr. Kramer when it comes to those things. >> Okay. Just to make sure we're all looking at the same sheet. Um, let me just explain a little bit to you. You should the one I put on your desk this evening. Um it has Do you have the 679794 for the top line general fund receipts? >> Yep. >> Yes. >> Okay. And then at the top you have the two columns, excuse me, the 618 budget for 2025 and then again, excuse me. Um for 2026, do you have the 744 up there as well? >> Mhm. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yep. >> Okay. I just want to make sure we're looking at the same one. So the um we want to put this on the screen projector thing since it's different than what >> Yeah, that's why it asked. Do you want this up on the screen? Sure. >> This sheet basically. >> Um, yeah. Do you want I have another copy if you'd like to do this one. >> I've made another copy. >> Okay. So before we even go through these when I and we have been as a council talking about the lack of saving in a capital improvement fund. Um actually we're carrying a negative balance in that fund right now. Um the state of the Hold on a minute. The state of the city you know people want good roads. We are looking at aging infrastructure. These are big ticket items. There is no savings for them currently and it as we have talked over the course of this year so far. Um, you know, I think we are all on board for planning for the future, you know, future spending in the city, saving in the city, just um general maintenance and >> ongoing upkeep. >> Yeah. You know, things need to be replaced, right? This everything's getting old. Um, so what you're looking at is this 10% would be the increase, a tax increase at 10% and that's where we got that 679. And I was just having Marcia just run some numbers just to see where it would all shake out. But the ones where you see where it says per contract um for like police and fire and on the third page um under 605 sewer utility like that 62,000 those are things we do not have control over. Um, so what I um was looking at here is if you go down the big tickets, the big difference to make up for that 10% is what people are asking for. There's a street. If you go down again now to I'm in um the 100 category where it says streets and road maintenance. If you come across that number is $100,000 in there. Big ticket. But that's We need our roads, right? >> I'm not sure where you're looking. >> I'm done. I'm on page one now. >> You said general fund >> under 100. >> Dispersements. Oh, okay. General fund dispersements 100. Yeah. Okay. So, if I go look down >> about 20 items down, >> closer to the bottom. >> 20 23 of the way. >> Yeah. Sweet. Great. >> Okay. >> Streets and road maintenance. >> There it is. Okay. Thank you. >> Easier to look over and find the 100 grand. >> Right. It is. So, there's a 100,000 in there. Um, and that was actually budgeted also for 2025, right? We had 100,000 last year that was budgeted. So, that's just keeping it in there. So, that's the a big ticket which makes up that 10%. And I'm going to make you flip a page again. And if you go to the page three and look at 406 where it says total capital project fund. >> I don't have a page. >> They don't have a page three. >> Sorry. >> Um we don't have page three. I'll go make you a copy really quick. >> It's it's this one, right? They have this one. They're looking >> Oh, 40 page two. >> Oh, >> I think so. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Do you have it? No. page >> 406 capital project receipts. >> I have it. >> Okay. Yeah. 406. Yep. >> Yeah, I have that. Okay. >> And so the 2026 proposed budget is 50,000 in there. And what that 50,000 would represent is you saw and I didn't put it out there for public consumption because I didn't want anybody to get scared, but I was just kind of playing around with the numbers. And that was I sent you guys a blank >> um >> Ryan I I sent you guys this blank one >> and I put I filled out one. This is just me messing around. This is nothing that I'm >> It's an example. >> It's example. >> That's right. Don't get scared. This is just right. So, um, what I was doing is writing down things where it says item, just things we need to think about in the future, saving for, possibly replacing. If you notice, some of them at the top might come into like um just general maintenance things. But the biggies at the bottom here when you get to road improvements and replacing, if you notice, we really have to start saving money. You know, I don't want to be continuously talking about the water manes, but you know, they're not going to last forever. We do need to plan for it. And this what I put in there is to not even start anything any work on them till they're 90 years old in 2055. Um and if you just look at that number there without grants, it's ridiculous, right? What we would have to save this number you're talking about is 197700 a year. >> Yeah, that's the total for 20. that. No, that would be the the total for 2026 if if we save 2,000 um for like roof replacement in for 2045, you know. So, we would save 2026, 2027, and possibly when we got to 2045, you know, we would we would be close to that 50,000 cost to replace the roof. Um, another example would be like the lift station replacement. Um, the I believe it was 2004 was when the Dellwood lift station was completed, the updates to it. So, right now now we're looking at 21 years on that, right? So, here I just put that in 2046. If we had to replace that list station, let's say in nine years, it costs 625,000. Like I just said, it's rough, right? So, we would have to save in order to pay for that without grant money. 62,500 a year just for that replacement to come up with enough money to replace it in 2046. And the reason I filled this out is just so we can see the seriousness of the money that we have not put away in the past to take care of this city. >> These are huge numbers and these are numbers that we cannot save for in one year, two years, five years, 10 years. It's going to take us 30, 40 years of serious hard saving in addition to taking care of the city, our infrastructure, all this building, all our assets. Um I was talking with Marca today about um bonding, you know. Um that was someone had um suggested we just go out for bonds to and do all the roads at one time. First of all, we need um to get an audit done and um Marca was saying those are between 20 and 30,000 a year or an audit. So, we would have to get the audit done. And she was also saying the amount of money that we have in the city would c like we couldn't get a good rate on the bonds and um which would mean we would be paying a higher interest rate um because we don't have that cushion there. >> So, it's it's almost like we're kind of stuck. um bonding isn't going to work for us until we start a savings program for the city. And that savings program in a city is a capital improvement fund, right? Um I I don't know. I I just I kind of get discouraged when I look at all of this. So, I'm hoping that you guys being the brains of the operation can come up with some really good ideas because I'm just, you know, and and like the pickle ball court, you know, that's fading, right? Those those um the the the structure isn't going to last forever. the matting and you know that's up for like I put in 2035 but even if that's $30,000 that requires us to save 3,000 a year and that's 3,000 more than we saved last year for capital improvements. So I'm I'm I'm at the and you know I know nobody likes taxes. Okay, cool. But everybody wants water and everybody wants nice roads and things are not free. We don't have money trees growing in the city. So, we're gonna have to pay for what we want. And these are going to be it's going to be tough. But, you know, do we want to be a city? >> It is your go is hard. >> It is. And we have to make some hard choices as a community. What do we want? Do we want to start, you know, being smart about future planning, being smart financially? Yeah, there's nothing really we can cut. We run a really tight machine here. >> I dare say cheap >> of this and local politics of course is the assessment process. >> Sure. >> You go through and that way everyone kind of pays their fair share. It gets the project done sooner because you can directly assess property, right? It does really act as a tax. >> So it feels like that. They're not popular. It's the way you get the job done instead of the saving for 40 years because the pay as you go when you camp on. >> That's right. So that that was what I was going to get to. So we're really limited on how we're going to get money and you know that's why we're so big on grants and I don't want people poo pooing grants. Anytime you can get free money, it's a good thing. So if anybody out there would like to help get grant money for any project in the city, that's awesome. It just saves us paying out of our own pockets. But anyway you look at it, we're going to pay either with increased taxes or with assessments until we have enough cushion in there to where we can get bonds because right now we can't. >> So I'm done. I know I know this isn't apples to apples because it's it's a different community, but um when my wife's father passed away >> and we inherited that house, we also inherited a $15,000 assessment because they redid the water lines and the roads. And so that's something to think about. It's a big chunk of change all at once, you know, >> and it does affect people's desire to move into your city. I mean, those assessments sit there, they're payable payable back, they're paid back over a period of time, and they come out incrementally in your property taxes, but when the property transfers, typically what you're going to see is buyers are going to want to say, well, you eat the assessment and we'll buy it, but it's coming out of your high. Yeah. >> So, a lot of people, >> they feel it very directly. It's hard to pass those on because the doesn't want to adopt those, >> right? >> But it's easier to pay when you sell also because you're dealing with a chunk of money. Then >> some people will just write the check, right? If everyone in virtually got a bill for $15,000 and you got brand new roads, >> you know, you'd be surprised how many people are not going to want to mess around with the idea of having this assessment sitting there. >> So, they'll just write a check or do what they can do. But the alternative is it's paid back over a period of time, >> right? Mhm. >> with interesting with no interest. >> So could the story of our budget for 2026 be something like this? We keep run the business flat. Um we increase our maintenance budget because the city is asking for that. We start putting away money to start to save and we have to decide how much and then you know it's an impossible amount. We have to depend on on government grants or we have to do um an assessment at some point in time if >> if people really want streets if our sewers are in terrible shape. That's that's what we got to get to. I don't think we're there for next year. >> No. >> Um, but we could start the discipline of starting to put money away. >> And that's why I kind of, you know, when I was thinking through this, and please, I I'm not saying that this is right, and I absolutely am open to ideas because I know you always come up with great ideas. Um, but that 100,000, >> it's just the voices inside. that 100,000 um in roads, you know, when Marcus was talking earlier, just an idea. We were on Wildwood, you know, and Wildwood is set according to this roads plan to be reclaimed, reshaped, you know, which is super expensive. >> Yeah. But as we're sitting there, you know, the sides of the road where the water is eroding the sides, you know, there's big ditches, not ditches, but a lot of erosion on the the surface. And I was asking him if we could just like do a big patch because the center of the road is all right. It's the two sides. And he said, "Yeah, we can do that. You could tear that up, patch the sides, you know, make your um curbs, you know, set up your curbs again. >> So, I there's a lot of like creative things we could do until we can have the money to actually replace the road or mill overlay the whole thing. Yeah. >> You know, >> right. >> Um it's just a matter of sitting down really and taking the time. And I don't I just don't think the city has taken there's just no time. I mean, we I can tell you there is no time with the staff that we have to actually take a week and really focus focus focus on this. Um, but that was kind of what I was thinking this winter. It would be a really great project once we have the tree things settled and everything to really dig in. >> Um, I don't know. I heard a good idea. >> All I All I heard were roads and trees and so this is really roadheavy and saving. >> You're not the only ones in the country. >> Oh yeah. Everybody's doing it. >> You got to believe that there's some out there and so a lot of infrastructure is 60 70 80 years old. It's like yours, >> right? And that's why >> with grants, you know, we can get creative and like when we were talking about playground >> um equipment, >> you know, we would have to maybe do a um I'm losing the words not all inclusive. >> You know what I'm talking I'm looking for. Um anyway, so yeah, you just have to be creative when you're looking for grants and think of ways that we can apply for the money. You know, it might be not what we're thinking of originally, but it could still work for us. >> You're talking about accessible playgrounds. >> Thank you. >> All inclusive. Yeah. No, that's not >> they have grants available for special playgrounds if we make it all inclusive. >> Yes. Then uh there there are more grant options for that style. So creative thinking of course will be good. >> Yeah. it I still think it's at least it's helpful to me to think about what our overall strategy is. >> Correct. >> And then underneath that so one of our strate strategies is we we can't do a lot of this unless we have grants. So that's the strategy. Then we can start doing deep work on grants. you know, if if we say we need to start saving, then we can start to do deep work on what should that savings look like. But I just think an overall picture because that's how we have to describe what we're going to do to residents, >> right? But I I don't think it can be either or. It has to be both. We have to save and we have to go fullon grant money. >> Absolutely. >> We don't have a choice but to save. Here you go. Um, I have a question and I'm kind of nervous that only Marsha can actually answer it though, but with the money we've been paying out for the lift station, >> I know that's money that's coming out of our budget right now and then we will be reimbursed. >> Did we take into account >> that that money is coming back? >> So, is that included in here? So, what I asked Marca last year and I'd like to ask her again is um she I said how much reserves should a city have and she basically said 18 months worth. >> Mhm. >> And that was last year. It looks like we tend to underspend our budgets a little bit. So, we may be there a little higher, but that was that 18month reserve was basically the cash flow >> for the lift station. So my understanding is that >> the lift station is sort of a pass through. >> Okay. But yeah, we should be having 600 something thousand back which you mentioned right now we're on a negative balance. >> That's the capital improvement fund and that's negative 15 or 20, >> right? But >> because we spent more in roads and we pulled it out of there >> and the money didn't go back into that fund. It went into the general fund instead. Oh, okay. >> So, the bud if you look in um the 2025 budget, that money for the lift station is under the grants and aid, state grants and aid as income. >> Mhm. >> Uh but it's not taken out. That's why I'm looking where it's dispersed because I I didn't see those amounts in here and they should be to cancel that out, >> right? >> Well, I think what you what you >> But that gets it through July though, too. >> Yeah. I just don't think any >> Right. because that was the first payment. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Was in July. Yes. And then we've paid two others since then. So, unfortunately, these numbers aren't >> current. >> So, I know we're d I'm going to say this one more time, then I I promise to be quiet. I know we're diving into the line item numbers, >> which is great, but what are we trying to achieve? Like, what are the big things that we want to achieve in 2026 in the budget? What what's the story of this budget? I mean, I guess to me, you know, I'll look at the I'll look at something very different than what you're looking at is I think we saw 20 I think it was about a 16% increase two years ago. I think last year we were >> at a 7% increase. I think it's it's really hard to tell people that we're doing more double digit increases here. And so, you know, I know this is the challenge everybody faces, but I think if we go out and say more double digit increases, we're going to have a lot of pretty upset residents here. So, I'm not I think this there's been many years of underinvestment in the city and I think that Ellen's kind of nodding. Um, >> so Ryan, would you say the story of our budget this year is to just keep things under 10%. >> I would like to I mean I think that would be my opinion. I'm open to other opinions, but um I'm uncomfortable with more asking people for more tax dollars at this point. But I do think we have to cope with the reality of if we always keep taxes down, we're going to be, you know, the the next 10 years can't be like the last 10 or 12 years and then we'll end up with no capital improvement savings. So, I think we need to find a balance there. But, um, you know, and I don't think anybody's wrong here about starting to save some money. Um, I think I I guess I think I kind of made my point here is that's uh it's not an easy decision here for me, but I think residents are kind of saying, "Hey, my taxes are going way up." So, >> but when you talk about a 10% increase, you know, I think about my own taxes in Birwood, right? So if they, for example, I don't know, they're if my total tax bill is 5,000, my Birchwood line is like less than two, right? >> Yeah. >> 10% of 2,000 is $200 a year. >> Uh, you know, hi Marca. >> I just don't let me I guess I'm trying to read this. >> I'm trying to read the budget here. And um >> Perfect timing, Marca. Awesome. >> I still say what do we want to do for the residents? >> What is >> I don't know how to do it. Now we can put the numbers down. >> This one. >> Thank you. >> Do you see that dispersement of >> I guess I'm not How much money do we have? >> So it did back out. >> So it did back out. >> Station and that's throwing the books off. >> Sorry. Took me a minute. >> No, I don't. >> I know what you're saying. No, I I agree completely with you, Ryan, because >> when we did that, it was at 18%. >> Be awesome. >> Like >> it was a pitchforks kind of experience. >> Um, and it was because the previous year they had got dropped taxes. >> Yeah, you can't do that. >> It did not did not go well for us. >> I said it. >> What' you say, Jen? >> So, that was a very hard thing to do to do that. And we heard about it significantly when we did. And then last year we tried to keep it under wraps. But a lot of a lot of our expenses we have no control like fire and um >> our huge expenses do not have control. >> Those were some of the hardest because we had gotten these grants and then they raised it exactly the amount of our grant. Surprise. Anyway, so >> magic. >> It was a magic number that just happened to be exactly the amount of the grant that we got. um which meant that we got no benefit from that grant other than not having that tax, but they decided they needed a new building or whatever it was at the time. But we don't really get the choice of being like we don't need fire and police. Those are fairly necessary, >> right? That's running the business. >> Yeah. Um, I am actually kind of surprised by snow plow how expensive snow plowing has been with how few times we needed them comparative to the year we had the snowmageddon. The >> price of that obviously was significantly higher, but it doesn't seem like >> um the same style of snow plowing has been happening. I don't know. I don't have a solution for that but that is a big portion of our expenses of the increase that you have mentioned here. >> I think we should make Bridget answer her question. >> Yeah. Well, I would answer because I'm thinking we have to explain this to residents what we're doing. >> So, I would say one we have to run the business and sometimes that's going to be really expensive because a lot of those costs are out of our control. police, fire, >> but we have to snow plowing, all of those things. We'll do our best to get the best price, but we have to run the business. Then I would say you told us you wanted to do roads and you wanted to do trees and you wanted to do more maintenance. So, we are increasing the budget to do those things. And this is what it looks like. And these are the these are the big actions. And then finally, we know like every other city in America that our infrastructure is old and we have to start saving. So, so we are going to put together a fund and every year we're going to put X in it. And to me, that's a really good way >> to explain a budget and then you can go through >> if we all, you know, if we all agree to something like that, then we can go through and sort of >> needle the costs and figure out can we do this for less, etc. But to me, that's that's where you have to start. >> I agree. >> I don't disagree with you at all. >> I just know that we were going we will we will for sure. It doesn't matter if you raise it 1%. >> You know what? >> Yeah, absolutely. We have to do what's best for the city, >> right? The city at large. And I have heard more people say to me, and these are not these are younger people say, you need to do that. We'll pay more for it. And then and someone told me, "If it cost me $5,000 to have a nice road in front of my house, I'll pay for it." So, it's not what we hear are the people that complain. You don't hear from the general population that's like, "Yeah, we need to get this done." They're not going to come in and say, "Hey, good job. Thanks for raising." >> Oh, no. No one does that portion for sure. But, >> but if they can see it, if they can see the difference, that helps. >> Correct. And these are all things that you will see. These are going to it's these aren't new software or you know things like that >> right >> it's visible improvements in the city. >> I do feel like 20% would be a hard ticket to explain to a fixed income and we do have a significant portion of people on fixed income here. So I would not discount that at all. >> Um we can have a talk about fixed income then. >> Okay. I guess. >> No, I'm not I'm not saying anything about that. My my personal story. >> Okay. Um but as far as individuals who that will be a hard amount to swallow. >> I understand. >> And then everyone's houses are also aging as well. So, well, all the houses that are original for sure are aging as well. So, there's infrastructure fixing there, too. >> So, every time people are doing improvements, their houses are reassessed for more, >> of course. and people come and chat about that a lot. So, they've improved their house. The cost is going to go up. It's a shock for a lot of people. >> Put on solar panels. They're exempt from property tax. >> Thanks, Henkins. >> So, >> and remove all your trees so you can use them. >> So, what are we saying here? Um, now that Marsha is here, >> you guys had a good question about the pass through with the >> Yeah, she found the sheet that shows it on uh page three, which we don't have. >> Um, has the >> the don't have page. This one? >> No, no, she has a third sheet that we didn't get. It has like two things on it. >> Oh, that little guy. >> Oh, okay. And Marcia had already explained the I I had mentioned regarding your email regarding Jack Kramer and the building inspection. Um we were trying to figure out which percentage of of building permits comes to the city and which goes to Jack. >> Jack will get 65% of >> that sounds right. >> So we get the 35. >> Okay. >> More than we have. >> I said 50. Marsh Marsha, I asked you this last year and I'll just ask again. Um, I said cities keep a certain amount of reserve and you said the typical amount is 18 months. How are we how where are we on that? And is that do I have that right? And where are we on that >> in the general fund? Yep. >> And and are we roughly at 18 months? >> I'd have to look at that. >> Okay. >> I can do that. I'd be just curious to know if because I I feel like we often come in a little under our budgets. >> True. >> Particularly with the shuffle that's gone on in the administration, >> right? Yeah. >> Payroll. Yeah, >> for sure. >> Okay. >> Payroll. So I think one thing that might be possible here would be to take if we've I know if we were at 18 months last year, if we've budgeted to be roughly break even this year, if we came in a little bit under budget this year because of the administrative staffing messes we've had, maybe one thing we could do would be to seed some of our capital improvement budget with some of that overage. Absolutely. We should spend every nickel before the end of the year. >> If that's what you're saying. >> No, I'm not necessarily saying spend it. I'm saying some of the funds in the general fund that we over spent that we haven't spent >> and move that into >> this >> capital improvement savings plan. >> Yes. >> And and that I think might allow us. I'm all for some capital improvement savings. I'm >> easing in. >> I feel like easing. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Is this is it's not only going to take us time to build up the fund. I think it's also we're going to have to go for the second derivative and ramp up the rate at which we're putting into it here as well and not not put in you know 10% of our budget may not be the most feasible thing next year but if we two or 3% and they had increase that by 1% a year we might be might be more palatable to people that does that make sense. Yeah. >> So, but I'm still I guess I have some still have questions about the numbers here. This the 74429404 is that just a straight 20% increase. >> Where does that number come from? of the um the general fund property taxes >> that's on there which the general fund property taxes you're kind of forced you back into that number by taking your dispersements for the general fund and then taking off all the other sources of income. So, um, that 679 that's up there is, is that what the number is? 679. >> Well, I see a 618134 and a 744 294. >> And then I see a 20%. >> And I guess >> 618 would be the same thing that was um that was the 2025 budget when you took the general fund levy and the um >> capital fund improvement, which we didn't budget anything in there. Um, and then the 744 is the general fund levy plus the capital improvement levy. >> That 618 looks like it's the same as the general property tax number. So, we didn't carry it. >> And that's because we budgeted everything into the general fund. >> There was no capital plan. >> What what we're proposing is if we want to increase >> and and where is the number for the capital improvement fund? That seems like >> it's on the next page. on >> on the next page under 407. >> It's $50,000 we're proposing to put into the capital improvement >> right now. That's what I had as a placeholder. >> Jennifer. >> Okay. Say that again. What everybody laughed at. I missed the joke. >> No. >> Okay. >> I'm sorry. Was that on TV? >> Yes. >> All right. So, I see. And so, >> we're talking about some [Laughter] So I guess so we're saying let's start our capital improvement fund with $50,000 basically per year starting in 2026. That's kind of >> that was my thought >> and that okay that's what it says. >> So if you look at again >> Yeah. Okay. >> We do a straight 10%. Okay. >> Yep. >> And if you want to kick it down to 9.8 8 whatever but um just >> I'm trying to understand before I give too many opinions and then I'll give opinions and stuff trying to understand but >> um >> but if you look at the numbers that um Marsha's provided us starting with the receipts right and then look at how she did the dispersements she did the increases right three cost of living three >> three so she did our increases for us the per contracts I already talked talk to you about. Um, so Marca really did put in all the the the numbers and really the only difference between last year's budget and this year's budget would be that 50,000 in the capital improvement fund, which you know, I understand what you're saying, Ryan, about 1% a year or whatever, but what's that going to buy us? I mean, you might as well save nothing then. >> I'm not saying 1% a year. I think what I'm saying is 1% a like may let's let's just as a abstract example put 1% of revenues into capital improvements in 2026 2% in 2027 3% in 2028 and so by 20 37, you're putting in 10% of your revenue every year. You're you're >> creeping up. >> You're ramping up. And so you're getting there, but you're not putting a big burden on people all at once. And maybe instead of starting at 10 at 1%, maybe you start at 5% next year and go to six and then seven and then eight. I think >> 5% of which number are we talking >> 5% of well this $50,000 is let's say that's looks like off the cuff is 7%ish >> I don't know 5% of which number are we talking >> total revenue >> I guess what I'm I'm I'm just it was just supposed to be an abstract example but like >> I want to know what number we're working off of >> um I mean let's say you take >> that be an 8% right Yeah. And so at 5% it would be >> No, right now it'd be an 8% increase on the last year's budget amount of 618. >> So if you >> So 679794 or what >> the 50,000 is an 8% increase. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Okay. >> I guess the important thing is we start. >> Well, I absolutely agree. We should start. Um the reason we didn't have one last year is because we knew we'd need to have additional funds. That's why um there's one that says general fund engineering expenses that 28840 and it says not sure why 2025 and then it got cut off on mine. So um I'm assuming they're trying to figure out why we put that amount in there. That was because we knew that the lift uh station was going to have more engineering expenses than we anticipated. So what we had planned on initially for capital improvement of 20,000 because we were going to do 80,000 for roads that year and then 20,000 going to that we knew we'd need it for engineering. So that's where it ended up. I mean, I I guess I want to just make some excuses here for a second in that there were a number of years when the budget when the village saved a little bit of money and then all of a sudden that money got pushed down to kind of replace lift station number one down there. And so that reset >> whenever they did that lift station six or seven years ago, basically it reset set all of our capital savings back to zero. >> Yeah. And then those that money that was being saved for that kind of got subsumed into operating budgets. >> And now and and so a couple years ago we kind of came in and people were the roads were in pretty rough shape and we you know started setting aside money for that and now it doesn't surprise me again that we're kind of coming back and saying well we're still not saving enough. And so you know I know Kathy and I are kind of veterans of of pushing this. it wasn't a whole lot of fun necessarily >> um to to deal with that stuff. But I mean, I don't disagree. I think we need to get there. I just think it's um you know, working through the numbers and finding some way we can kind of make this a little more palatable. So, >> um but what's what's actually if it seems like what you're kind of saying here, and thank you for putting together the budget, is if we had If this were Birchwood Beverly Hills or something, we would like to just like go to 20% taxes because that's a reasonable way we would sort of at least even like start to make some progress on our capital >> on our capital spending. And that's kind of what we're saying or we would like to go I mean >> what do you what what are we saying here that we wanted that ideally if we thought people wouldn't be push push back would do a 20% increase. >> Well, I'm not suggesting that. >> Okay. >> And just to put it out there, right now I have it at an 18% increase because I took the if you look down below under I think in the park there are special revenues there was 145 that I budgeted just for permits, but that shouldn't be included in the levy number. So, um, I apologize that number went to 72979404, which is an 18%. >> So, we're down to 18. >> We're down to 18. >> Okay. I wouldn't be apologizing for that if I were you. >> So, I did want to ask on there, we do have parks budgeted for something on here. Is that uh maintenance, gems maintenance? >> That because it has a 3% increase. Yeah. Can >> we change the name of that one to >> because he's not just parks maintenance and I don't want people to confuse that with our parks funds that are the special revenue one. >> Oh, sure. So, like parks and building maintenance, >> uh, maintenance staff, I think, would be helpful for that instead of parks because I'm nervous that I don't want people to think the special revenue fund is somehow part of the levy and it it is not. So, >> Ryan, what do you think we should do? >> Should have played the lottery yesterday >> in one. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You'd be out what is it? $2 now. >> Yeah. Um, so I know we were talking about our staffing challenges. So, what is the what are we under this year for that? I might be getting to the point where I need readers, but >> right now we're at 40 41.6% of the budget um through July. Um but we do have to factor in that we are paying unemployment too which is down under employee insurance. Um so that the unemployment is is quite hefty. You'll just see the first one coming through I think in August. It's like um see what it was. >> I don't know where that is. >> How long we playing that for? >> We started on that. >> Do you know? >> I I don't >> It was a year. Six months. No. You get unemployment for six months, but that's not directly paid out. >> So there's Okay. Insurance employee. Is that what it is? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, there was just one in August um for $2,3545. And we expect that monthly, you know. So that's >> is it going to go monthly, do you think? >> Should be Z that >> that's 30 a little less than 30,000 a year. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, what do we want to do? >> Got to decide. >> I guess to me, I mean, here's what I'd do. I would say let's pick a number for the because it seems like the the big kind of thing here is how much we're going to put away for capital projects. I would pick a number for capital projects as a percentage of the budget and then I would put together a plan that basically says we're going to put 5% into capital projects in 2026, 7% in 2027, 9% in 20 and and so we're kind of ramping that up over time. People get used to that. That's what I would do is >> Jen, you're shaking your head or shaking. >> Okay. You know, I guess I just get caught up when you just say, "Oh, people are going to freak out. This is a different number." >> Because I'm looking at my tax record right now. My total tax for 2025 is $5,244. >> My Birchwood portion, >> that's the >> is $1,274. If you raise my birchwood tax 10%, I'm paying $120 more dollars a year. >> $10 more a month. >> But we're not doing this in a vacuum. >> I understand that. But Birchwood there, our only income is this. >> So if you raise my tax 10%. I'm giving Birwood $10 more a month. What in the world are are we going to do with an extra 10 bucks, man? Woohoo. >> I I think what I kind of understand where Kathy and Ryan are coming from because that's on top of 15% extra we're paying for healthcare next year. >> It's on top of however much Washington County raises our taxes. It's on top of how much daycare costs get raised that year. It's how much gas is. It's the >> school districts. >> Yeah. this the totality of taxes. >> I totally get it. >> This is the one expense that people have five people in their neighborhood that they can come talk to about. >> I just, you know, then um I don't want to hear complaining about how the city isn't maintained. >> You can't maintain a city without money. We're running we're maintaining the city on Jim, a 20our a week 60some year old man. Mhm. >> That is our maintenance crew. >> So, >> so, you know, I don't I get an icky feeling when people complain about stuff like that and then they complain that the city looks like garbage. Well, you know, >> those are >> then we have to pay more money. >> No. >> So, help me figure it out. >> What do you want? You want roads or you don't want roads? >> I understand. Yeah. Money is tough. It's a life is about decisions. So I don't care what we do. I mean I'm one >> you do care. >> I do care because I well I care about people who cannot afford it. I really care about that. >> But I think we could provide some sort of safety net for them and I've started researching some of those avenues. But on the flip side, we're charged with taking care of the city and doing what's best for the city as a whole. So where where does that come down? Like who? I don't know. You know, in 10 years from now, are the people going to be complaining, look at our roads are crap. Well, yeah, because >> well, even if we do everything, you're still going to have people complaining that the roads are going to look like crap because >> some people just you only hear the complainers. >> That's the way that works. >> Well, so what I would say is we save for the future. We have to determine what that amount is. We make sure that all of the maintenance that needs to be done is covered, and that probably is an increase, and it's not 20 hours a week. and then we run the business. So, what does that add up to? >> I mean, just as an example, too, you know, there's $15,000 in our tree removal budget for 2025. Everybody, probably almost everybody in the city has taken down at least one tree this year or, you know, from the last couple years. It's not cheap. And what were you saying, Kathy? How many do we have in Paulie's Park? 101 >> 101 that need to be taken down. We have $15,000. >> Some of them have fallen in the last storm, though. So, it's probably a few less, but that's not ideal. >> So, I guess we have to decide, do we want to tackle these things or do we just >> I don't know that it's a decision, unfortunately. It's more of a we have to plan for them better. But if we decided to tackle them more aggressively, it would be a decision about spending more money. >> Um, I would like to point out in case anyone doesn't know that the September meeting is our our ceiling amount. So, we cannot go up from that for our final budget. We can always go down, which is something that we have always discussed in all of the meetings because we will have a full room. um for that budget meeting, no matter how much we increase it. >> Well, I mean, if I guess my experience is if you increase it a lot, you're going to >> have more people. >> It's not a great idea to raise it what you think it should go up. It's not a great idea to raise it up a whole bunch and drop it down because everybody sees on their property tax statement the first number and they don't look at the second number >> after you've dropped it down. And I think the previous mayor kind of did that and learned that that maybe wasn't the best way to run the show. I mean, I agree we can always come down, but you know, if people see like, >> but I mean, as far as like if we raise in a reasonable amount, we can't go up. I do want to point that out. >> Go up, right? That's right. We can't go up. In the event we go with something un unreasonably low and then find out that we have to increase let's say the police come like they did two years ago um in our November meeting to inform us that we had what was 124 up from whatever that amount was 124 up from our 36. Um when they came to do that it was after our September meeting. That was a a hard meeting to discuss because there was nothing we could do about the other portions of the levy. So we had to cover it out of that. So a lot of things got shifted around because of that which meant the next year we had to make up funds or pull funds. And fortunately we had a very low snow year that year. >> But that's that's not the best way to do that. So >> So I I made some notes saying this is what I want. I want to have enough money for pavement marking, for uh dangerous all dangerous tree removal, for playground repairs, for catch basin and covert cleaning, for roadside mowing and brush cleaning, for citizen portal fixes, and for streets. That's what I would like to have in the city next year. I don't know what the price of that is, but it could figure that out. >> I don't think that's unreasonable. I >> I would like to see the city get a financial audit, >> but that's 20,000, right, Marca? >> Yep. >> Usually between 16 and 20. >> Well, in 2024, we had started saving for it, and that was one of those >> setting aside some money for a financial audit and the city hasn't been audited since the 2010 books. >> Mhm. >> So, we had set aside a little bit there and then that was one of the ones that left for the police increase. And then what was the other things we cut that we had planned on? Technology was one of them that left. >> Part of the road budget left. >> He managed to cut some budgets. >> Yeah. >> Ryan, what do you want to see then? >> I guess I'd like to see >> I mean, what do you think's best for Birchwood residents? Like what would what do you hear from residents that they would want the most? I guess to me, um, you know, I I do think that some of the long-term saving is important and I think the road stuff that was put in place is important and I think a lot of that stuff is kind of in the budgets here. Um, you know, I think those those are things. I guess I'm not I don't think it's a growing city and I don't think doing a lot of extra stuff is is probably going to be worth it to people beyond just kind of general capital improvements. Like what? >> Like >> besides roads. >> Well, I think we're talking about what you some of the things on this list I think are reasonable to do. >> Um I don't necessarily I know they're enumerated. I not necessarily want to pick pick off the ones I like and don't like here, but I think, you know, as a general matter, like I don't really need a >> remodeled bathroom. But I just think whether they're enumerated or not, we have to start probably saving a little bit of money for those things, but >> I don't know. And I I I wonder if people are aware that Jim has to buy his own tools to do any work in the city. He has to get his own trailer. You know, I mean to me the reason this is might be so shocking is because we are a city. Grantite, we're small, but one guy 20 hours a week bringing his own tools to the job is not enough to manage this city. >> And we don't make it up in volunteer hours except Jen this year when he mayor. >> Is is Ron still on? >> Yeah, Ron helps Jim. He's available, >> but Jim is our only full or well actual regular. Are the are these guys they city employees? >> Yes. >> Not independent contractors. >> Correct. >> Oh my god. >> Both of them are city employees. >> City employees bringing their own tools to the job. >> Y that shouldn't be it. So, you know, there's just so many there's so many things that I think um this community doesn't have knowledge of, you know, and there's just so much that needs to be fixed. And I don't know, I just think it was a disservice for years not raising taxes. prices go up year to year to year. And I understand that hitting people with a big bill at once is not, you know, the way to go. I'm just making a point that there's just so much that needs to be done. We're so far behind the eightball, you know, and I just I get discouraged when I look at it because I would I want to do what's best and I would love love love to polish this place up, you know, give people what they want and I just can't come up with a way that we can do that unless we hire someone full-time to write grants for us, you know? I I don't know. I mean, I don't know what the answer is. Um Marsha on the streets and road maintenance that's listed on here for the 2026 that 100,000 is that the portion that we had um planned on for the road repair uh capital improvement project? >> Yes, that's for the engineering schedule. >> Okay. So I know he had said 78,000 is what he was anticipating. So, we do have 100,000 planned for that, which means that we will have some savings from that to hopefully put into roads, assuming that prices don't increase. >> Or we'll use it to fix more roads. That's what I'm talking I'm saying. Yeah. I mean, if we have a h 100,000 in there, we can spend it per budget and fix more roads for more people >> instead of just doing, you know, one little section. >> Yeah. I mean, you can expand the the reach of it. Or if it's for these ones where it actually will need reclaim, >> it might make sense to hold 12 $12,000 from >> Yeah. >> this next year for the following year to make that 112 for the following. So, >> yeah, I agree. >> So, >> so that one is somewhat covered in there. So then this additional capital improvement funds, if you're taking that out of your aspirational one, um we'd actually be making a decent chunk at that point towards that, but the >> towards the roads >> towards the total. >> Oh. Uhhuh. Um, I do think we need to plan for the water system will need to be replaced at some point. 20 years was the the short expectancy. 40 years is the long expectancy um >> of what >> water mains and things like that. So, >> I would anticipate we need to plan for those. They're all the same age. Yeah. You know, and then when I put that, if you're looking at my this was just like a dirty, you know, just >> Yeah. I mean, an example, right? But, you know, when when you're talking about the water system, I only put $2 million in there. >> Mhm. >> Starting in 2055. >> Yeah. There's no way it will be. >> That's one section of one road. And then the water man's 90 years old by then and >> it's not going to be 2 million. >> No, it will be significantly more by then. My hope is that if we have a fund that it will be bearing interest for the time frame while it's >> while it's waiting, but whether or not that happens >> also, we're only here for two years, us personally or you guys have four years. Um, so there's only so much we personally should tackle at once. To try and spread it all out over the time frame available would be best to plan for the future as well. >> Exactly. I mean, that's what this plan is. A plan for the future. >> I mean, >> we can't make it pretty and polished in two years. I just >> No, no, no, no, no. But you have to plan for that, right? And that's what this is, a plan. We've been making some progress on this with the roads plan and things. I think there's more to do. >> You shouldn't get so discouraged. >> Like it's the the ship turns slowly in a town this massive. >> But >> listen, I'm more concerned about the maintenance, >> you know, >> because I'm not doing it next year. So if you if we don't fund more maintenance for the city, I'm not doing it. So it's not going to get done. >> What maintenance are you talking about? >> Weed whipping the side of the road, shoveling the shoulders. We had stuff has not been I don't even know how many years it's been. I was shoveling over a foot and a more than a foot of dirt down on Hall Road off the road. >> Okay. There are just like this thing that I uncovered over here by Kathy's house. I don't even know what that is called. Some sort of storm water management system. >> That little um that little ramp stuff. >> There used to be docks in the marsh as well way back when. >> But you know there's one up on Hall Road too, but it's covered with >> supposed to be some sort of water. >> Yeah. >> To direct water that way. I don't know that it works. >> Well, I would >> I'm not doing it though. I'm I did it this year. propose that we >> increase our maintenance budget to cover those kinds of things for next year. Nobody should be doing that on a volunteer basis. >> And it's not so much the volunteer basis, but again, it's a disservice to the city because it's like >> totally agree. >> You you need to be aware of the work that needs to be done in the city and we have to be ready to pay for that work, >> right? So, are we in agreement on that? >> Yeah, I I think the maintenance is very important. I struggle with the fact that we have a part-time maintenance guy. It's obviously stuff's not getting done. And when it storms, I'm out there in the with the mayor getting wet cutting trees down >> with Steve Dean huffing down heaters with his chainsaw. >> So, like I I feel like there's some some some things that need to happen in the city. >> And I don't mind doing occasional things like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I'm talking about general maintenance, not emergency stuff. >> But there's no mechanism. Like if we wouldn't have done that, there was no there was no mechanism for that to get done. There's no money to like, hey, 17 trees fell down. >> Like what's our plan here? >> We call like Woodchuck and they come out and then they charge us >> a billion dollar, >> 20 grand to remove the trees. I mean, I think that stuff like that, it's just mismanagement and I don't want to continue doing that. I don't want my name on a mismanaged city. So, I I agree. High bills, people don't like them. I know. And >> I don't know that it's mismanagement. It's more that there was a different philosophy. >> What would that >> that budget overrode investment? and people worked really hard to try and make the budget. I totally get that. >> I I'm also suspicious that this and maybe Allan is is it true that this is as you say that this is hitting a lot of cities right now. I get the impression that, and Marsh is nodding, that there are some external forces at play here, like inflation and um >> tariffs. >> Maybe tariffs. Yeah. But also, um what was I going to say? Less grant less grant availability. Um, >> yeah, >> you know, some less federal funding, less I don't know that Birchwood has gotten a lot of local government aid, but local government aid in general has has declined in places. And I I expect that other cities are going to be >> pushing up taxes pretty significantly, too, because the stuff is getting shifted from bigger governments to smaller governments as a general matter. And you know that's something that some Pod Dunk City Council member at Birwood can't you know do much about other than we have to pay for it ourselves. So >> that's part of >> what do we have to budget for maintenance? >> Okay, let's get let's get down to business. >> So maintenance would come under where is that? [Applause] She did say parks, but I changed it on mine to say maintenance staff. >> Okay. So, it's under parks, though. >> It's the 4250. >> Yep. >> Budgeted up to >> 415. So, >> that's Ron. Is that where we pay Ron? >> That's That's Ron and Jim >> and Jim. And then what else would we pay out of that? >> It should be just them. >> It's just staff. It's not >> Yeah, that's not equipment. That's not um materials. >> Okay. So 415 >> that's why it has a 3% increase on it is it's a staff >> okay >> is what we pay to take care of the city for a year. >> Well I propose we double it. >> Well we let's try it. Let's double it. And if we don't like the outcome we can Marcia can always back it out. Right. So, let's just start with something. >> Ryan, you got my pen again? >> Sure. >> What? I don't have your pen. >> Um, >> Ryan, >> let's just try it, you guys. Let's make some progress here. So, parks. So, if we doubled it, I assume that means we will be hiring some people, >> correct? Summer help potentially. >> Yes. I have an idea. >> Vendors, you know, hire somebody to correct go in and >> clear the sides of the road that >> doesn't need to be in a >> Why if we wouldn't the sides of the road cleared like just make an ordinance saying, "Hey, everyone has to clear three feet from the road on your property. If you don't do it, we're going to do it and charge you for it." >> That's an option, too. >> Assessing houses is painful, though. >> Well, I'll assess all day long. Yes. But uh Theres and and Marca will will appreciate if we do it the other way. >> Yeah. Well, I I'm just saying like what's a >> Yeah. >> You know, creative solution. >> Yes. >> Um >> so if we we just put 415 into maintenance. So, do you wanna see the thing is is now we go back to the capital project fund. If you want to back out 415, drop that. I'm going to be bad at math. So, what is that going to be? 8,500 now in there. >> You know what I mean? The 406. >> So, if you kept the amount the same, it'd be uh 8,000. If we >> 500 in capital improvement and then 82 83 >> in so if we think >> 83 in maintenance then you would back out the 41 500 that we just put in maintenance you would back out of line the 406 >> leave you 8,500 cap permit >> right why I mean worst case scenario why don't we do both and see what the number is >> okay >> to pad it a little bit >> pardon >> just to pat it and start a savings account for some of these other things that >> 8,000 in a capital fund. >> I know do it. >> I know that's what I mean. >> Right. So I I'd keep it in and see what we got. >> Okay. So then, but you get there was already push back with the not increasing the maintenance and having the 50,000 in there >> because that already brought us to >> I just think you can expla I mean maybe I'm naive but I think you can explain it to the community that we don't have any savings and we are short on maintenance and you're complaining about that. So this is what we're doing about it. might be naive, but >> I don't know. I just look at it from a math standpoint. I just go back to facts, right? Math. Let's do some math on this. Like I said, my house is pretty average in here. And a 10% increase would be $10 a month for me. >> It would be 200 uh 10 a month. Yeah. Okay. Roughly. >> Yeah. And when we communicate about it, that's the kind of examples that we will could use when we >> tell residents about the budget. >> I mean, look up your property tax. You could do the same thing with yours. >> I know what my property taxes are. Um, >> you know, and the thing is too, I I don't know how other cities do it, but is there is there um like a fund that cities might have to help people that are at of a certain income that they could apply for that to help them with their taxes. Even though you know what, now that I'm saying it out loud, there is the state u the county has that or if you have a certain if the tax is a certain percentage of your income, um you pay 40% less. For example, someone whose income might only be like a $2,000 a month pension. Um, and their tax rate is I can't remember the numbers, but I could look it up. You go you fill out a form online and you get that rebate on your taxes, your property taxes through the county. Did you know about that? >> Well, there there is a certain point um I I grew up very low income, so I'll just go ahead and state this. When you have paid no taxes, you get no refund. I just like to point that out. >> It's not like they give you extra money. >> No, but >> we're talking about property. >> No, no, I know. But as far as uh you mentioned it's a a discount off your taxes. >> That's when you're filing your taxes. >> Oh, I see what you're saying. >> Yeah. You you don't get money back. So, it >> there's nothing to discount. >> Yeah. >> Gotcha. So, um I know social security is getting dinged this upcoming year as far as if you are over a certain age and we're that's your only income. It's going to be significantly less very quickly which is one of my concerns for >> all that. Yeah. >> Um I am I'm not personally >> affected by social security yet but I am certain there are >> several people I I I have always considered that it will be an altruistic thing. I will never see any of that money because of my age. However, the people who are currently getting that I don't want to discount the fact that they are going to get a whole lot less >> this upcoming year. >> I don't think so. No. >> As a matter of fact, they really lowincome people won't have to pay taxes anymore on their social security. >> I did see that. >> Yeah. But there's no cuts in social security >> in the amount that's being paid. >> There's also um Minnesota Department of Revenue >> property tax deferral for seniors. >> How does that work? >> Right. I know. But I'm just saying there are pro programs out there and if if there are people in our community that are having issues. We certainly is it incomebased though? >> And I don't think you're authorized by law as a statuto city to do that. Use tax dollars that way. >> To use tax dollars what way? No, I'm saying the people themselves would apply for this. >> Oh yeah, >> it's I think right now you're talking about the county. deferral. Yeah. >> So, if we kept that, if we kept Marsha's numbers but increased maintenance to 82,000, what would our increase be? And and in Marsha's numbers, did we put 50,000 or whatever? >> Leaving 50,000 in capital improvement year >> and and keep the 50 in capital improvement. >> Overall, a 25% increase. >> Wow. 17% in the general fund. >> We only have 300 some houses. It doesn't spread far. Okay. That's a lot. >> That's not much money. But when your budget is small, >> Yeah. right, >> right? >> It doesn't take much at all to jump numbers here, >> right? >> That's even 20%. You guys take >> No. >> And that's why I'm saying it's all math. You can be afraid of a number 20%, but 20% of a dollar, I mean, you know, I Whatever. I can't. You guys can decide. I'm good. >> So So how much money do we have? How what's the surplus from I'm starting to get very tired. The surplus from the uh employees from the turnover this year is that zero or what's the surplus on that? Um well right now >> taking into account the insurance payments. >> Y >> for sure >> actually >> running deficit over saving though because I mean that little percent >> we're budgeted to spend 165300 through July we've spent 68,000 700. So thinking probably roughly another four grand for this month. And so >> can you do the quick behind the napkin math extrapolate for the rest of the year? >> We didn't have those expenses full year because he wasn't on >> you won't have >> No, we're not talking about that. We're talking about >> No, but we can put some of that money. >> I know what you're saying. Are we intending to replace? I assume we are. Yes. >> Yeah. >> It looks like roughly around probably like 95,000 that >> Yeah, we budgeted for 165. So, so far we've done 68. Let me just see what a typical month is. may have um calculated the amount of payrolls. >> Marcia, do we have an overall sense of what where we're going to end on the budget for at the end of the year? Um, so far being that we're only pretty much have half half the year in here, um, it it looks like, you know, we're still we have over half the year in here and we're under um, so we're we're only at 27% of the budget for general fund um, dispersements and 35 for the receipts. So um, technically I'd like to take out the the 600,000. >> Yeah, we'd have to do that. Yeah, that's true. >> Um, I know we had planned, well, we were planning last year for the uh possibility that the EPA would not pay it back in the event that they got discontinued completely. Um so because of that and that was in September that we were looking at it uh there is a possibility that we had left additional funds for knowing that we'd need of cushion >> or are they >> well right now they're being paid out and then we get our money back from the EPA when they pay us back. So that's why it's a wash. I mean, if you look at the general fund, there's what, $900,000 in there. That was basically the plan was to take it out of the >> Yeah. >> But that $900,000 is roughly what Marsha recommends as our buffer. It was basically just to draw down the buffer. >> Yep. >> Tell everybody that we're sorry and we all got screwed and then raise their taxes if we if we lost funding. >> So, there's no real like And I think one thing, you know, there is a basically as far as I'm aware, I would think it's probably up a little bit. There is basically an 18th 18month buffer in the city that can be drawn down if we have emergent needs. The problem is if you start running deficits, that means your tax increases are going to go up even more exponentially, right? So it's not Not ideal. >> You shook your head kind of like I would, Bridget. [Music] [Music] You had mentioned the 744 294 was not actually that was 18%. You said the amount that's currently on here. >> Yes, that 744 was um it was a different number. Um after adding the maintenance in we're at 77294 which is 25% >> and that's 25%. >> Um and it's looks like it maybe be about a 30,000 savings there. >> Yeah. >> On payroll. on payroll. >> I mean, I think one of the other things we can do is look at I don't know it'll buy us a whole lot, but we can look at our fees a little bit, too. It'll buy us We could probably get five to 10 in fees. >> Yeah. Do you think if we changed the um capital improvement to 20 and then took the 30,000 we saved on payroll this year to make up that 50 in capital improvement? >> Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. If >> we did that that way. >> Yep, that's a good idea. >> And still leave the maintenance at the 83. How would we look with 30,000 off of the capital improvement? We're back to 20. >> Yeah, that's an even one. >> Oh, >> back to 20 thou or 20%, I'm sorry. 740,294. So, we take maintenance down by 20 >> to make it 60. Mhm. And that drops you to what about 17%. >> 16. >> 16. >> Okay. >> In progress. >> Yeah. We increase fees by 10. Ryan, is that what you're thinking? >> That might be hard. Um, I do think like we can probably I think the dog association we probably should have some discussions with them if they can bear a little of the maintenance burden here. So, but five five I think 10 is kind of hopeful. I think five might be >> five. Okay. somewhere we can get I think we can shift I think if we reorganize correctly and um you know one of the things I think we can look at is I think if we reorganize we need to reorganize our planning and zoning fee structure and I think we can get 5 to 10,000 out of there um and we have 225 budgeted for this year. I think we we um need to be able to push basically push those fees on to >> people who are doing planning and zoning. Not completely, but more than we are now. And and you see up here >> like our permitting fees are 11,200. Our planning and zoning fees are 22,500. like we're subsidizing planning and zoning quite substantially and >> you know hopefully when this RFP's when the RFP comes back on the planner >> we can kind of recalibrate how we're doing that there because that's a pretty significant expense >> Ryan >> for the city >> where can you tell me where you are >> planning and 100 down under under planning and zoning here >> okay I see that >> um >> and where were you basically doubling permits our price or the cost for us. >> We're I mean, you know, if we're if we've brought in 117 this year, maybe we'll bring in 20 by the end of the year. We're paying out 225 to >> to plan to the city planner and it doesn't look like that money is necessarily being recovered in a measurable way. Maybe it is. Is that >> Mhm. >> So I think >> and that is something that I'd be okay with doing because that is people who are doing special projects generally. >> That's right. And so I mean I >> you know this has been over the past couple years and Justin Margaret and I all kind of went through and squeezed out a lot of the stuff out here. And there's a couple things to squeeze but there ain't what is there there's juice so much. I don't remember what the expression is. something about juice and squeeze. >> Juice isn't worth the squeeze. >> Something like that. Yeah. So, I mean, >> you know, it's ice and snow removal. We already, you can see we reduced that from 47 down to 34 and that was partly because I think we were paying Allen an unreasonably low number and we worked something there. And, >> you know, I don't have any issue with paying people fairly and giving them 3% increase here. So like this a lot of this has been scrutinized and if people want to want to work and and find other things that's great like >> but it's just it's it's limited what we can squeeze in my view. >> Yeah. We need fire, we need police. >> So >> where's all that stop sign ticket? >> Can I ask you a question? Um so you know when you were just saying >> we're going to be under budget >> the salaries. >> Are we please blot it? >> Oh I see. But we're also going to be under budget with the receipts here >> for permits, building permits. >> Does that affect anything? >> I mean, part of it is you're I guess what I'm saying is you're under receipts on permits, >> right? So, does that affect >> That's mostly a pass through, but I think what I'm saying here is you're pushing >> 22,500 to planning and zoning. >> And that's mostly that right there is mostly a subsidy by the city to planning and zoning. I think it's money we're not >> we should be recovering and we've tried to find ways to recover it. But I think basically working through a new contract over the next couple months is going to be the way to do that. >> Okay. >> I see what you're saying though, Jennifer. We can't account for 90,000 in in revenue from that. So we actually have to take 80,000 off of our revenue. >> Well, that's how come we have >> and you can't like the 30,000 that are under on salaries and then we're under. Oh, >> but it's not but it's not a net 90 as I understand it because >> it's a it's >> Jack gets the majority of that money goes >> so his isn't >> and and one of the things that happens if you have one or two new houses in Birwood that brings in fair amount of permit fees and I don't know of any that have started going up >> in 2020 the Pratt one down there 131 >> you're probably going to get a bump there >> from when that house goes in from permit fees. But >> but I would assume that that 90,000 is our money because we put it in as our budget. We wouldn't have accounted for Jack's money coming into our city because he takes it off before it gets here, right? >> That's a good question for Marsha. >> They send all the checks in and then >> So the 90,000 would be that and then somewhere in there we have I don't see anything for him in here. of 60% of that >> he is down below um underneath the fire building inspections administration. >> Oh, okay. So that's 62. Okay. >> 62. >> So that one's down 40,000 there. So it's sort of >> 455. >> Can you tell me where what >> under page two or page >> building inspection administration? We had anticipated >> 62. You got 20. >> Okay. >> We've paid 20. >> Well, okay. So yeah, so this why is the building inspection administration money that's going out higher than the money that we've taken in in permits? >> Well, that makes sense if he gets 65%. >> Because he takes us 65% kind of whatever he submits. >> Yeah. Deposit. >> 65, right? Y. >> So I think you know there's a couple of things to squeeze. So, if we're if we go down to 62 on maintenance, if we can squeeze 15 more in fees and re-engineering or whatever, >> I don't think that's unreasonable proposing, >> right? Um, then where where does that get us, Marcia? >> You wanted 62 on maintenance. Yep. >> And then what was the other change? >> Fees would increase generically by 15,000. >> What which fees >> doesn't matter? >> Uh we'll come in I can bring in the fee schedule and we'll take a look at it. >> But where where lineices and permits or building permits or what? >> I mean this this is only general fund levy receipts are fees on here. But they are on where are the fees on here? >> The fees are in the um the special revenue projects revenue I had in it. >> Um but it's not included in the levy number. >> I mean that's one of the problems I think with the doc association is the doc association funds are limited to parks maintenance and we could change projects. >> They're limited to special projects. We could change that those funds but and make it so that they just go into the general fund. But if we do that then I I mean the other option I think is just to make sure that Jim is billing all of his parks work to the special revenue fund. >> Well, we don't that that fund is being used for improvements and park maintenance for well no for in general. So like anything we add to the parks or do for the parks is coming out there >> is budgeted here, right? >> No, we don't. We don't. Um, so like if we get new nets or something like that, that's coming out of that special revenue fund. So that >> they are doing run the business kind of stuff with y with their money. Yeah. >> Yeah. But I mean that you could increase that and then shift some funding out of the general fund to the parks fund for example when Jim is doing maintenance. Yeah, they've kind of been using the special revenue fund for the parks committee as like their budget to try and figure out what they can do each year based on that so that they are planning ahead for we need to do something at this easement. Here's how much we have. >> Is there can we get the parks committee then to start where you're talking about doing maintenance. Can can we have the parks committee start to plan to do some of that so it comes out of that budget? >> Um, >> no. The special revenue fund is not for maintenance. >> It is for maintenance. It says right in the document. >> It's for projects though, like when we um fix elm ement and the you know what I'm saying? It's not for lawnmowing or it's not for trimming the trees, that sort of thing. >> I wonder if we should change it to make it a little more general if we're really going to focus on some maintenance in the city. >> Um the doc association >> I wouldn't I wouldn't touch it for next year. >> Yeah. Okay. because we also have the $10,000 reserved for the parks project that we have going on now which is out of the 14,000 the majority of it. So >> that's what happened before with that money and then it got used for things that it wasn't supposed to. >> So Marca, do we need to pick a category? Can you just tell us what an additional 15,000 gets us in terms >> you want to take it you want it >> take it out of somewhere doesn't matter >> for net right now >> right now >> I I would >> down to 14% >> okay that's under 15 >> that's not bad >> that's under 15 >> I I mean, we don't we don't want to go in with too low a number for September 30th. >> Correct. >> No. No. You want to keep your >> Right. So, 14% for September 30th. >> I I would almost leave it at the number before the 15 because well, the reason I would is >> because if we end up finding 15% to remove, then great. If we don't, then we can't go more. Right. >> Um, so I I don't want to >> set ourselves up for failure before we even start. >> Thank you. But I I don't I I'd like it being under 20 for sure. Um because that would be a hard number for a lot of people. It It's a scary big It's kind of like charging 99 cents for something instead of a dollar. >> Agree. >> It's a number where it scares people a whole lot more. >> Yeah. And I I'm you know I just want you to understand where I'm coming from too. It's not like I came in with we need to do that but I just wanted to put down realistic numbers like you know if we wanted to do some of these projects this is what it would take. >> Well nothing's going to get cheaper in the long run too. So I would like us to plan >> at least a little ahead would be awesome. Plus, the other thing that wasn't on that capital list, and I know that we are hoping for grants, but we got Halls March Marsh, we've got the beaches, we've got Fisner. >> Yep. um part of the Halls Marsh um if you haven't had a chance to read through the Prebby Lake agreement that Rice Creek would be responsible for rem moving all the plop on there which I will totally explain what all that is but it's the sediment buildup from what is 197 50 years of overflow drainage that has happened. Yes. I mean >> yes. So, as far as when they remove all of that sediment, which will have to happen as part of the agreement, >> um we will get a little bit of restoration in there because we can at the same time get all of those invasive species, etc. out of there, which will help us um go more towards that natural aspect of it. the grants that are available, a couple of them would allow us to do something fun like a boardwalk in there while we're taking out the invasive species or something like that. Um, so it has to have a a fun enhancement while also taking into account that it's a habitat that you're restoring. >> No, my only point is >> you might not get it. Exactly. >> We've got park property. >> Yeah. >> And park property >> we have a lot >> time is going to process. >> Yeah. Yeah. We can't charge funds for those. So, it's something that's a service. It's just harder. But yes, there are grants available if we creatively think about much like your accessibility park equipment. Um, there are grants available for that, but not a normal park like you know a a normal swing set, but if you do the dual swing set that allows for accessibility special ways to do it. >> Sorry. Um, just like what Marcus was saying last month about that grant for Hall. Yeah. >> Right. They'll reclaim redo the whole road if we put a bike path in. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. No. Yeah. There are some grants out there. It's also a matter of making sure that we're going to be able to pay our portion of those grants and and keep up our reporting on them because if we don't, we owe all the money back, >> right? is implementing grants. >> Yeah, there is some admin with involved in that too, >> right? There's a lot of work to do. Yeah. >> To do that. So, >> well, where we want to be for this 30th. >> Yeah. Well, I was thinking if we left uh 60,000 for the maintenance, which would be Jim, and then took out 20 uh knock down the capital projects um fund 20 that that was that was that 16 that you had said. >> Did you want 60 or 62,000 in there? >> Um numbers thrown out. I thought that we kept it kept at 50. >> What did you want the maintenance at? 60 or 62? >> What What was the amount we had before? Did we just have straight 60? >> I didn't write it down. >> Let's see. It was >> both. And then I heard 62 thrown out, so I popped there. >> Oh. Uh >> well, where are we with 62? >> With 62 and bringing the capital down to 20, we're at 17%. And then what about the 15,000 of fees that we're going to >> the 15,000 would bring it to 14. >> Okay. I'd still leave it at the 17 and I I don't like it and I know we'll hear about it but until we know what we're where we can trim I think it's a good explanation. You know, I I agree. We can explain all of it. It doesn't mean it's going to make sense to anyone, though. Is all they'll see as a number. >> Yeah. >> I guess I'd really prefer to leave to basically keep it down to 14 because and and basically force some cuts. >> You think uh maybe taking How much was the difference? >> I think we're going to have a lot of upside >> dollar wise. I know >> 15,000. 15,000 >> difference between the 17 and the >> what cuts are you forcing? I because I can't see a place where we can cut. >> I think we can cut the planner expenses significantly. Um I think we can also look at our fees some and increase our permitting fees some. >> Okay. >> So maybe we put those $15,000 worth of fees under escrow because is that what you're thinking is that like the plan by cutting the planner it would be escoring it to the resident >> that's what was supposed to work that way but it has not >> we need to I think basically we haven't been able to get we have a planner he's on retainer generally he doesn't bill his time out to residents. We've asked him several times to do that. And I think by moving to a planner on an hourly rate, he'll basically he or she will basically bill either to the city or directly to the resident and then we'll recover those costs. Now, I think we're still going to end up with a few thousand in planner expenses just because we're going to want to talk to the person as a city. But I think the majority of the city planner expenses should be borne by people doing construction. I also think >> we have to be careful because of the way the contract works with Jack where we have a um a feebased schedule. So if you do a project for $20,000, we basically confir calculate the cost of the permit based on the valuation of the project. And we're required to do it that way. Our contract with Jack basically says Jack gets whatever it was we were talking about earlier, 65% plus the 75% additional plan review fee. I think we can augment our fees there. It may make it a little more complicated for staff. We've tried to do that before. Um there were some objections to doing it that way, but I do think that would probably push more of the planning and zoning budget onto the people who are actually doing the work and off the taxpayers. We probably always >> we might save some office costs in this whole process too if we re-engineer it. >> I I agree. Maybe you had some experience with the it's not like you have little experience in the office with how some of that stuff works. >> Yeah, it was really interesting to see and you know people are doing a really good job but it's a it's a buggy system that hasn't been fixed. >> The the permitting software is yeah that's a >> story for another topic. >> We were promised big things. I don't think it's happened that way. Well, I think there can be bigger things if we want to invest in it, but um I asked to be put on the agenda for the 9th just to brief you guys what I found out. >> Okay. >> And Jen was there, so you don't need to be briefed >> and I'll be happy. >> I'll watch the video. >> Teresa's already contacted >> them to fix the bugs that you found. >> Yeah. >> So, it's good. It's a process. >> Yeah. No, it's it's a process, but I think we could do more with that if we want to keep it. and I I can put together some documents that kind of revise some of the fees and things and we can visit that next month or something. Um it's there's some complexity to it, but I think I've done most of it before and we'll just pull it together. One of the problems is we haven't been able to pass ordinances for a while. So, >> so are we going to go in for September 13th with 18% or 14%. >> That was 17 or 17. Sorry. >> Yikes. >> Sorry. >> Hank was advocating for 14. Kathy was advocating for 17. >> I think that's what >> Right. Just split the difference. >> I could be talked into either really, but you want to split the different. I'm okay with that. >> So 155. Well, I mean, >> yeah. All right. >> Because I think that's more reasonable. >> I don't know. >> Simply because you might not be able to get the 15,000. >> I would love to. It would be amazing. >> Well, yeah. >> You know what I mean? >> Not that worried about it. But I mean, I think >> here's here's what's going to happen is people are going to get their tax statements. They're going to come in and they're going to >> pound on the table and >> glare at us. Mhm. >> And then we'll come in and say, "Oh, hey, we found a way to reduce it three or 4%." And they're not going to memorize that. And then when somebody comes in running for mayor and says, they're going to say, they're going to give the numbers that were given out before we we dropped them down. So, I'm just saying like, you know, it's not going to be pleasant no matter what at these numbers. I think even if you increase it 1% you're you have people there will be >> well 1% you probably you know people say whatever but >> yes exactly >> you get one person in for every percent >> here's here's a here's my proposal if I again I don't care if it's 14 or 17 that we start with or 155 but in the interim before that we have to for that truth and taxation meeting, right? Between November. >> Well, that's what people come in. >> That's what they come in for, >> right? So, >> between now and then, we educate people. >> That's what we do. Put it out there in multiple forms. We can send out a letter as a city. >> I have been hearing wonderful things about our Facebook and our newsletter posts. So, the communication with the city has been uh praised significantly. So that >> the newsletter looks great and I think >> yeah the newsletter this time was terrific. >> What you were talking about I think what you guys are saying is that we need to just explain it to people. We really you really have to explain that this isn't really this is just stuff we're going to have to do and we're not >> out buying people free lunches just council members. Oh, >> what? You're getting a free lunch. >> Hey, he has enough. >> Where do I sign for the little kids meal? >> Like I think one of the things that one of the reasons we really got into trouble last year is we didn't really explain that these are the that and the way it was put. I think Bridget said it these are what you're asking for. These things cost this amount of money. We're not off spending money donating to some willy fire department or something. >> It's all going right into these things that people are asking for and to make this a livable community and these are the fire five things are and I think if we explain it that way it will at least lessen the impact. Plus, you know, the other thing if the city is running really smoothly and everything is, you know, in a perfect world, everything is nobody's complaining and everything's mode and we can start to use our brain power to figure out how we raise more money. >> You can and one of the I think one of the things we're struggling with right now is some of the staffing issues we've had. We Nobody can do anything right now. I can't do anything. You guys can't >> do some things. It's I can't pass ordinances. >> Running in the hamster wheel, >> right? It's and it's been that way unfortunately. I think >> nearly all year. >> Yeah. We weren't set up when you guys came in necessarily that well. And >> that's okay. >> We're going to end the year strong. I can feel it. >> And and there's been a lot that's been accomplished. >> You've done a lot, >> right? In hard in a difficult situation, a difficult year. Let's think of it. If we were fully staffed and functioning, >> right? >> Well, think of the things we could do, the places we could go. >> The Dr. Seuss book. Yeah. >> One more thing that we hadn't put in there though is for an audit. >> Oh, right. And if you are truly thinking at that there'd be some point in the future where you'd want a bond for roads or or anything, we would get a much better bond rating if we were audited. >> We had that document. >> It's was it 20,000 when you had looked it up? >> It's 20. I mean, I what what the the number you gave, Marcia? You said 16 to 20. I think >> Chad Jippity just told me 8 to 20. >> That's that those numbers are are in the ballpark. And I'm >> I have a firm that I work with with a couple of my other ones that are audited yearly. >> Yeah. >> And they are I just went out for bid um last year in May Township and they came and at the lowest also. So >> it's 16ish or >> do you think ours would be lowerish because we have such a low budget? >> It just mean that they low. It's not that many line items to look at. Why don't we Why don't we say no to an audit for next year, but start telling the community we're going to have to do it in 27, >> especially if we're planning on doing something that requires a bond, we'd need to. >> Right. >> It was recommended that we actually have it should have had it done in January with us all coming on board. >> Oh, sure. >> Who recommended it? >> Scott, >> did you know? >> I mean, I don't think anybody's wrong. I just think >> just to protect us. I'm the biggest proponent of an audit of anybody. I just think I agree. I think it protects the council. I just think there's hard choices right now. >> I agree. >> So, >> right. So, if we can stabilize our expense base so that >> you know maintenance a higher maintenance budget is always in there now, then we can increase for an audit in 27. >> Okay. >> I think we had planned on what was it a third of the audit budget for three years so that it would be done. I don't remember if we did. >> Is that what we had planned on Ryan? I know we had budgeted for it and that left because of the police department, but >> I think we paying $100,000 for the police department. >> That just seems absurd to me. >> Why? >> It's 24hour service. There's six people in this area that are on 24 hours a day. We couldn't pay for one one employee at that price. Ryan, I think I don't want to get too far off topic here, but I think it's worth renegotiating because what we have right now is a JPA. JPA is a joint powers agreement with five different cities. It's like Delwood, Birwood, Wellerne, Mameidi >> grant >> and basically we pay proportional the population to contract jointly with the Washington County police with the Washington County Sheriff. The problem with that is Birwood has somewhat less commercial business than say Weller near Mameidi. And so in some ways we're subsidizing those cities for their and and I think Allen's even thinks that's a bad deal. And and I think when the JPA comes up for renewal, which I thought was this year, maybe next year, >> just came up in 22 I think. >> Okay. So when that comes up, I think we need to look into whether that's really a good deal for Birchwood. right now I don't know that and I think we're still even then you know are we going to save 20% maybe in a super super good world but realistically >> you'd still want to keep the same service though right >> we'd want to keep the service but realistically I think those communities communities are doing a little little better than we are so there's probably some room at some point >> to renegotiate a little bit there but I don't I think people have looked around at Ramsey County Sheriff at Whitebear police And I don't think that those places are any cheaper. It's just expensive. >> Mhm. >> It's 98,000 for you right now. >> Yeah, it's it's expensive. So, >> it's it's a big portion of our budget, >> you know, >> it is >> it's >> but so as a practical matter until that comes up, you know. >> Yeah. We we there's not a lot we can do right now. And believe me, I've screamed about it a little myself, but >> you know, >> so what happened to you guys can't happen to us this year, >> this coming year? >> What happened to Would they increase the >> the >> I mean, whenever they show up and tell us what our bill is going to be, is going to be what it is. >> I think we could have made some noise there, but I don't know that we would have gotten anywhere with it. I think they would have said, "Okay, you can go shop around." I think we would have shopped around and gotten higher rates than they were offering. >> So, yeah, it's 8% of our budget is is police. Um, I don't know how often they're in the neighborhood. I do not think it is 24hour at all. >> No, they're available 24 hours. They have the people in this area 24 hours a day. I'm saying it's an opportunity we could choose to look at. >> Yeah. But as far as like you you are absolutely right. We could not afford >> one person, >> two police officers because it would not you can't work 24 hours a day. >> I guess I guess I see it like this is that >> three hours shift. >> If I call regardless if Birchwood has a contract with the sheriff or not, if I called the sheriff about something, the sheriff would show up. >> And so what I feel like we are paying for is them to sit there and give stop sign tickets. A and so I see it as us spending $100,000 to write some tickets for stop signs. And so I guess that's where I think it's expensive because I think that I'm already paying for the Washington County Sheriff because I'm paying the county and they're paying them >> and so we're contracting with them for that service and so it's like we're kind of double paying a little bit. >> Mike, >> well it's part of a separate agreement council. So I mean >> but discussion, but when it comes up as an agreement that you have to ratify again, >> that's when you can talk about performance service and whether or not there's bang in the buck juice from the squeeze, that sort of thing. >> And those reports, I mean, they do some hard stuff. >> No, I'm not saying that they're not worth the money. I'm just saying it's a big portion of our budget >> and it would be nice if that were a slightly smaller portion of the budget. >> Just it's a big number to >> see for how little I see them. And you're right though, 911 will always get someone to show up. Y >> So that's what you pay for. >> I think from our meeting last year when they showed up, uh over 75% of their calls are uh people who have fallen down or elderly individuals who welfare check is our neighborhood. That's the most use. So, we don't have a lot of violence andor crime, which is great, but that's that's the majority of the >> car breakins, so lock your cars. >> Okay. Um, but as far as the you don't you don't see the sirens and the everything as often when it is that kind of call. >> So, should we make a motion? Are you guys all ready for this or not? >> Did we decide on our percentage? So, I took the 15,000 down to 7500 is what I heard somebody say. >> What? 15,000. >> Half of that. >> The fees. >> Half 15. The fees. Um, and that brought the percentage to 15.3. >> That's Is that okay with everybody? >> Yep. >> Okay. >> And we're just going to launch >> like, but >> we're going to launch an educational campaign. >> See how it goes. >> Yeah. And Bridget number >> we can go door to door. >> Yeah. No, I'm fine with that. We can do all kinds of good communication >> because it's a good message. >> It's like you've asked for this. >> We're doing it. Costs money. >> People know that. >> Can you >> after the meeting? Um could somebody set out send out just by email to the council the revised numbers? I'll try to help a little bit with I'll make spreadsheets. Marsha, >> could you send out after the meeting the revised numbers, the proposed revised numbers, and I'll try to help. I make spreadsheets. I can make some pie charts. >> You do pivot table. >> I No, >> I love pie charts. >> Um, >> I'll I'll try to I think let's get the numbers out to the whole council and just try to >> Okay. So everybody kind of can get their own take on it and kind of communicate it to people and we can all you have to can't do open meeting but if you email the numbers out we can try to kind of work together >> and we should all have the same talking points. Mhm. >> Well, this is what people like exactly what you said, >> right? >> This is what people ask the same thing. >> We're not being extravagant. >> It looks like a big increase because our budget is so small. >> I'm happy to draft some talking points and have them sent out to everybody. >> But, but I mean, really, boil it down, Jen. All we're doing is saving a little bit. We're trying to save a little bit of money in trying to keep the city a little cleaner. >> Maintain the city. That's it. That's it. >> Right. We have very little wiggle room. >> Do we need a motion? >> It's not dramatic, right? It's necessary. >> Um, I've got a proposed motion because I'm doing minutes kind of live fire. >> Oh, lovely. What do you got? >> Help us. >> We're spinning. >> I confirmed the number with uh with um >> Marsha >> with Marca. And so what I've got teed up is motion to approve the modifications to budget document as presented and adopt the same as the city's quote preliminary proposed budget unquote set at 712,79404 parenthetical 15.3% increase closed pens as required by state law and direct staff to communicate the same to Washington County. >> Thank you. Sounds beautiful. So moved. >> So move motion by where? Oh, before we make one that motion, Marcia, the 70,000 from Lake Links, which we will be totally reimbursed for, does that need to end? We and we need a line item for it. So, I don't know if that changes. >> That's an in and out. It's a wash >> pass through, >> but it's a pass through, but still it should be >> Does the fund come to us and then go out? >> We pay and then they pay us. >> I think you Allan needs to change the levy amount for that. >> I'm just saying it needs to be included. Add the line item. >> Right. >> Got it. >> No, >> I didn't hear a second. >> No, Kathy. I I motioned >> first. I got you on the motion, but second. >> Second. >> Second. >> Who's a second? >> Second. >> There you go. >> Thank you. >> Oh, sorry. All in favor? >> I >> I >> opposed. Hearing none. Motion carries before we adjourn. Wait, we have another item. >> Oh, darn. You're right. One more thing. So, on the 9th, you will be gone. >> I will be at that wake. >> Oh, you'll be >> Oh, right. >> So, I will not be here on the 9th, which is why we had a meeting today. >> So, >> and Kathy is I am the deputy mayor. >> And so, I think we should just >> Yes. So, that's why I'm suggesting we appoint >> Eley or Bridget to be to run the meeting. We should just appoint somebody to run the meeting. >> I appoint Eley. Wonderful. >> Nicely too. >> I'll get drunk with power. >> Can't wait to watch the video. >> It's going to be That budget's going to be 30% increase when you come. >> We don't need a motion for that, right? >> Not really. Okay. >> I mean, we can do a Do you think we should do a motion for that, Alan? >> Yeah. I just had motion to appoint member Ryan Eley as acting mayor for the September 9th city council meeting. >> I'll second. >> Motion. I'll I'll move to appoint Eley acting mayor for the purposes of the September 9th meeting. >> I'll second it. >> Okay. Now before we adjourn >> I Oh. >> All in favor? I >> oppose. >> Hearing none. Motion passes before we adjourn. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We had two hot topics on this um agenda tonight. And you know what? This is the best council. I mean, this is the dream team. Seriously, you guys are awesome. This I've seen a lot worse. You were doing so well until the last one. >> That's such a backhanded compliment. >> Okay, let me let me try that again. You know, seriously, I I like the fact that um when we when we talked about civil discourse, right? >> We talked about civil discourse. You can you can disagree and still walk out and be friends. >> Yeah. >> So, anyway, I appreciate that about all of you and I appreciate all the work that you do. So, thank you >> and we appreciate you, Jennifer. >> Oh, thanks. All right. Um can I get a motion to adjurnn? So moved. >> Second. All in favor? I. >> We'rejourned. Thank you. >> And I need to sign some papers. >> Awesome. I'm serious.