Fantastic. [clears throat] >> 30 call into order the December 8th, 2025 uh meeting for the Lake Elmo Planning Commission. >> Uh first and item on the agenda is pledge of allegiance. >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> [clears throat] >> All right. Thank you. Uh, next item is to approve the minutes. I need a motion to approve the minutes. >> We need to make a change. >> We will. We'll have the motion. [laughter] Have a motion to approve the minutes from 11:105. I make a motion to approve the minutes with one amendment to those minutes and that would be I don't was it >> I would vice >> chair char Yeah I would assume that you called the meeting called the meetings >> with with one uh one amendment to the minutes is that um >> Commissioner Ray Camp uh called to order the meeting. >> We have a second. All right. [clears throat] >> All in favor? I >> I the meeting minutes with set amendment is approved. Next item, uh, public hearing. We don't have any public hearings today. >> Mr. Chair, can we get a motion to approve the agenda? >> Oh, correct. Thank you. We need a [clears throat] motion to approve the agenda ahead of myself. >> Motion to approve the agenda of Monday, December 8th, 2025, Lake Elmo Planning Commission. >> Thank you. >> I'll second. >> In favor? >> I. The agenda is approved. Now moving on to uh new and finished business uh when the first item is short-term rentals. >> All right, good evening. Tonight we're going to talk about short-term rentals and this format will be a little bit different. It'll be similar like a council workshop to get input. This is part of the work plan for 2025. So, as you recall at the beginning, we this went the planning commission as a housekeeping to include non winter occupied um uses and to move them into the bed and breakfast. This was pulled out and then we went ahead and had did a workshop on November 12th with the council and the council gave us some feedback on how what they would like to see. So, just to take a step back, the city currently does not allow short-term rentals in any zoning districts. We do allow uh bed and breakfast in most residential mixeduse districts with the standards being owner occupied single family homes not to exceed five rooms. Um there's parking requirements. They are required to have insurance and a permit for two years. So, the issue before the commission is should the commission consider short-term rentals? And if so, should the zoning code be updated to allow them? Um, where should they be located? Does it really um certain zoning districts, would it be more appropriate? Lot sizes? Um, should there be a conditional use permit? Also, if you want to approve them, should there be a limit on how many? And then, we'll talk about this a little bit um in the presentation, but um should they regulate as an R1 or R3 occupancy? So, currently Washington County requirements short-term rentals meet the definition of a hotel motel per state statute. The hotel motel um is basically any place where you have occupancy under a week. We'll talk about this more in detail [clears throat] with what's a hotel and what's a short-term rental um in terms of the days and that sort of thing. [snorts] So currently Washington County is licensing jurisdiction for food pools, lodging. They require licenses for short-term rentals and bed and breakfast in the county. The county performs the inspections for all lodging establishments that they license. They also notify local fire inspectors uh during plan review for new lodging establishments. So the fire classification, this is where it's a little bit tricky. The state fire code um basically is the cut off between a hotel when it comes to an R3 and R1 occupancy at uh less than six guest rooms. So the state fire code is different than the building code. So the building type what is an R3 occupancy? So an R3 occupancy is a classification under building code. It typically includes residential structures where the occupants are primarily permanent in nature. It also includes certain care facilities, congregate living facilities, and transient lodging with five or fewer guest rooms and 10 or fewer occupants. So, that's basically your typical home. And then an R1 occupancy contains sleeping units where the occupants are primarily transient in nature. It includes transient lodging with more than 10 occupants, hotels and motel. R1 structures must [clears throat] meet fire code and ADA accessibility requirements. So what that means is if you're converting a house to an R1 from an R3 to an R1, high cost improvements would likely be necessary for an existing single family home to meet the requirements. Then what are neighboring cities doing? So Still Water um does permit short-term rentals. Uh it app their short-term rental license applies to hotels, motel, bed and breakfast, state licensed residential care facilities, and nursing homes. It requires a city council approval. The license lasts three years. It's not transferable. Um, the newly licensed rentals are inspected by both fire and building. Uh, short-term rentals are only permitted in specific zoning districts. Most of them are downtown in the historic district, but no more than 50 licenses shall be approved outside the business district. Last time I checked, I don't believe there are any available licenses. If there are, there's only like one. So, they have performance standards. not host events u more than three unregistered guests. There's maintenance standards. You have enhanced parking. There's also a nuisance standard. This is not uncommon where it's a three strikes. You're out. So, uh if after the third substantiated um complaint violation within a 12-month period, you can have the um your [clears throat] license revoked. So, just to be clear with Still Water too, Still Water the R3 occupancy is only for um owner occupied properties, five or fewer guest rooms and 10 or fewer total occupants and it's a single family home. An R1 category would have to be converted to an R1 if it's in a home if there's no permanent resident or greater than five guest rooms or greater than 10 total occupants. Uh condos or mixeduse buildings are also have to be R1. They're typically R1 anyway. you'll see short-term rentals in multif family buildings. So, when you see these throughout the country, um they meet those standards of R1. Sprinkler system doesn't kick in until they're greater than 4,500 feet, though. Oak Park Heights, they're permitted in all residential districts with a conditional use permit. Uh the rental must have a state license for lodging. Permits are not transferable. are not required to be owner occupied. Must be a detached single family home and may not be closer located closer than 500 feet from another transient lodge. That could be a motel or an Airbnb. They have performance standards with fire building code. Limit of three transient guests per bedroom or limit of three bedrooms for transient lodging. Um dining shall not be open to the public and then you have to have additional off- streetet parking. So, two off- streetet parking spaces shall be provided plus one for each bedroom over two bedrooms. They also have a nuisance excessive noise report to the city. In violation, you could lose your um license. Woodberry does not allow short-term rentals. So, >> how many go back? I'm sorry. [cough and clears throat] How many does Oakdale have? Do you have any idea >> the number of short-term rentals? >> Yeah, >> I don't know. >> All right. Y >> Thank you. Sorry, >> Woodberry. So Woodberry um [clears throat] does not just doesn't allow short-term rentals I think under 30 days and the same thing with Hugo. Hugo is the same way. It doesn't allow short-term rentals. So the city council workshop discussion we had the same questions essentially um regarding location zoning limits on how many. [snorts] But um just to kind of cover that it was for the city council members were there. one was not in favor of adding short-term rentals. The three others were is interested in the conversation and and asking questions. Um so basically some of the comments were they wanted to adopt regulations to protect neighbors from nuisance such as noise and larger gatherings, limit the number of lodging rooms, limit the number of guests, limit the number of total the total number of short-term rentals within the city. That was pretty much the discussion comments that they had. Other comment that was discussed was potentially if you live in a subdivision, your HOA would not allow short-term rentals, too. That's something that an HOA could could decide. So, we're here tonight because this is on the work plan. We have a pretty good idea of where the council stands. Um, you know, this could be a contentious issue, so we wanted to bring it to the council first just to see um what their thoughts were. So, really opening up to discussion on any of these items. um you know your thoughts on if they should be allowed if it matters the zoning district lot size would you like to see them in rural areas not in rural areas in the village would you like to see them in multif family apartments or not in multif family apartments that's uh the big question and also a limit should they be limited in how many if anybody has any comments >> what's current demand I mean are we trying to solve for a problem that [clears throat] doesn't exist I think that if you look at Airbnb, I think there were 12 listings when I l when I searched. So, you have about 12 listings. Uh we have about five bed and breakfast permits. Um when we brought it forward a year ago, we haven't heard complaints. So, it was one way to kind of simplify the the permitting to say that these could be allowed anywhere. Um obviously, there were some concerns. So, and we we continue now in terms of regulating. There are some concerns with with doing that, but um I haven't seen much in terms of demand. Um people calling us. >> We anecdotally, we hear that the demand is potentially from Still Water, right? There's still Still Water. People want to stay here. [clears throat] >> I think in general, short-term rentals are great if you have a larger house with multiple bedrooms, so people don't have to purchase multiple hotel rooms. it seems to to be, you know, an advantage of a short-term rental. Um, [clears throat] but no, it was just more of a a permitting because the permitting does not allow for um non-owner occupied bed and breakfast. So, we were just seeing if we could permit this and this is what started this process. >> Did you happen to look up Woodberry on Airbnb and see if there were any listed there? >> I'm sure there are. >> And that's what I'm thinking. Like, they don't allow them, but I guarantee you could probably find 20 at least on on there. So, it's it's going to happen, you know, whether it's permitted or not. And the enforcement of that is, I think, is what's difficult, especially for staff >> to have to, you know, enforce it all. >> Um, should we just start with number one, and we can all weigh in on should they be allowed or not? >> I mean, in my opinion, I I think we should allow short-term rentals. Anyone else is welcome to chime in. >> I I'd like to know where are they right now in the city. I have that information >> and you know specifically so >> and what kind of issues >> how many are there? Well, I found between Airbnb website and Verbbo, there are uh a total of 11 >> in the city and um three of them are owner occupied. And I also looked up the bed and breakfast permit application and it says the property at which the bed and breakfast operates is a private owner occupied residence. Guests must stay not to exceed 30 days. They're signing something that says here that I've read and understand the conditions under which I may use my property as a bed and breakfast as set forth by this application and city code section 154.310A. [clears throat] Um I agree to abide by these conditions. Failure to abide by these conditions will result in cancellation of the permit. So, if they've signed that and they and they're not really an owner occupant, uh it's non homesteaded, they've already fraudulently signed this these this document. But, >> I mean, there's a good chance that those 11 didn't sign that document, right? >> Yeah. So, there's I have uh I have um of the 11, there are seven that are registered, four of them that are not registered, and five of the seven are non-homesteaded. and three of the four that are that are not registered are non-h homesteading >> irregard it comes down to an enforcement capability what we're gonna do >> I feel like we're [clears throat] not able to enforce the bed and breakfast so I'm not sure we can take on >> something on a level of >> I I can't imagine that requiring licensing and the fee for licensing would be enough to employ staff to follow up in compliance I mean >> it's easy enough I mean when you when they I I think one thing that you could add to I mean I'm just speaking of the bed and breakfast here because I'm open to those I people that own their home, it's a primary residence in their homestead, they should be able to have these. >> Only that's current code. >> And so, I'm not I'm not against that piece of it. And but if when when they come in for the application, they can bring along their their proposed tax record and it says right on there that it's, you know, residential homestead, that would be one way for the city to [clears throat] verify it at least. >> But that's breakfast conversation. >> Yeah. Right. >> I know where you're going, but I think it said, "Do we do we want to allow for short-term rentals?" >> Well, and and the problem a little bit, I think, is at least I would think you'd want to limit what what zoning district you're in. Right. >> Right. >> And and if you do that, are you really solving the issue because you're going to say, "Hey, you can do it along the 94 corridor or the suburban edge, let's call it, in 36." >> Well, then at some point you got to you got to manage somebody that wants to do it, you know, across >> Lake Humble Drive there, right? So either way, you're going to have to have some way to enforce it unless you open it up completely, which I don't think I would like to see. If you're going to go the R3 route, >> in my opinion, I don't I don't think I personally don't think there needs [clears throat] to be a zoning district. Um, and and reasons behind that are if you allow a certain number of rentals, then you're not getting concentrated areas of them, you know. So, you know, if someone wants to stay downtown Lake Elmo or if someone wants to stay on 36 closer to Still Water or wherever or if they want to stay on a farm, you know, that's got a pool or something like that, >> right? You know, to me, >> I don't know that a zoning district is appropriate. Um, as long as there are >> requirements in place. I like the the parking spaces. I like that if it's over 4,500 feet, they need to have some kind of fire suppression system. Um, but that's just my opinion. So, so that would include a neighborhood um such as >> correct >> across the street or any next door to a >> let's say Tom gets sent uh you know and his family are gone for two years in business and they want to have their home as a short-term rental rather. >> I get sucked back in the military. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Does Still Water primary residence? And I think we need to distinguish that one is a is a homestead and the other one is not. One is is a primary residence. He owns that home. Even if he's gone for six months or two years, it's still his primary residence. He's homesteading it, >> but he's also treating it as a short-term rental. >> Well, or Airbnb registered as Airbnb owner occup. >> I thought R3 said the owner had to be would generally be living there at the same time, renting out a room. B&B is different. >> B&B they have to they have to be owner occupied. >> Short-term rental does not. Is that right? >> Is that right? For short-term I thought the R3 by definition was just >> It really just depends. I mean, so the bed and breakfast [clears throat] requires owner occupied. So you would just have that. Yeah, >> as the permit for owner occupied, which we currently have. >> If you wanted to have a permit for someone who wasn't owner occupied, >> you would basically create the short-term rental, I think, is the easiest way, right, >> to do that. >> And R1 versus R3 just depends on the size of the space. >> So, guest rooms and guests were some of the stipulations between R1 and I personally don't like the R1 and R3 designations. I don't know that a short-term rental fits well into either one of them, but it it's a good way to have >> a guideline for what it needs to be. >> Did you say Still Water has restricts it to a zoning zone like down you said downtown where most of them are? Is that by definition? Is that by an ordinance or is that just where they fall? >> That's that's in the code. So, they allow 50 [clears throat] outside of that district and I believe that they're all have licenses except for like there's maybe one available. Yeah. >> Right. And in order to have those, do they have to do a cup? [clears throat] >> I would have to check. I think the cup is outside. I think I think it may be by right if they meet all the standards. >> I do think the CUP is a good idea. I think if you want to have a short-term rental, you need your neighbor chance to say no way, no how. I I mean I So from my perspective, short-term rentals are one of the Well, this is just this is a stat, but the short-term rentals are one of the fastest growing segments at over 9% of the transactions nationally right now. investors are buying these properties. Private equity real estate firms um compete with wannabe homeowners. Um they can easily outbid consumers with cash offers. This drives up the affordability index and and liquidates housing inventory. Um asset management companies. Um we don't really want those. Uh we want residents owning homes, single family homes, and being our neighbors. I do not recommend allowing single um short-term rentals that are non-h homesteaded, non-owner occupied in a single family home inventory. Um bed and breakfast homesteads, those are fine. You know, I'm totally fine with those. But the the short-term rentals, um they're going to alter our neighborhoods. Um they're they have a negative impact on our citizens safety, comfort, and expectations for predictability and um will transform the quality of life and the character of our community. I my biggest concern is, you know, we're in a housing shortage right now and so an investor is always going to be able to outbid a homeowner and so they're going to eat up our inventory and if city staff isn't able to handle the or coordinate with the [clears throat] bed and breakfast at this point, how will we manage short-term rentals? >> I I I think Jane that we've got you're think it's a bigger problem than it is again. There's 11 out of how many how many homes are in Lake Rough? >> 5,000 >> 5,011 right now. There's not other than Still Water or maybe some family, you know, there's not a a draw for people to come here. >> Yeah, we're not we're not looting, >> but there's 11 and it's no and that's outside of code. And when we say it's okay, we would expect that number to grow. So, we got to be careful. And I I tend to agree. You got to be careful too that is that what like almost the community is asking for some investors might be asking for it. But is the community of which we represent housing a quiet little neighborhood next door >> all of a sudden now every four or five days every week every month there's so I don't know if they're what I get what I'm getting at is the problem there is going that's fine. Somebody's gonna spend seven $600,000 on a house. They're not going to be able to rent that 300 days of the year. >> Yeah. If we were a vacation destination, I could see how investors buying up homes that, you know, occupants couldn't, you know, get into the example of the last two homes that have sold um that that are now registered as a as a Airbnb. One of them sold for 300,000. That's a starter home. That means that that family, a family couldn't buy that home, build equity, and then move up in our neighbor in our community. The other one sold for 328. Both of those people have have registered their property, but neither one of them are homesteaded. So, they've said, "I'm an owner occupant. One of them lives in Colorado." I mean, they're filling out the paperwork and they're fraudulently signing it. And so, I mean, there's an example right there. Those are starter homes. And so we don't have somebody that's a family that's living in those homes now. They were bought by by a basically an investor who fraudulently filled out the paperwork. >> And that's what we need to be, you know, concerned about. >> Yeah. I don't think the numbers are going to explode, right? I agree. We're not a vacation area, but I think we have to be careful that we >> It doesn't matter, I guess, in my mind if if if it's going to explode or not. Is is it the right thing to do in the Lake community? And I think we got to be careful at least at least without restriction and guide rails, right? >> That's why I threw out the question, is there a way to district it and say >> maybe it's not fair to people live near there, but uh the suburban exterior likeong along 94 36 um commercial >> additional areas they could work potentially. >> But to say if I think we we're going to be a little risky if we say it's open anywhere you want to do it, no matter where. Um I think that's just a risk that I'm not sure there's a big demand to make us take that risk. Jason, you mentioned that whether it was Oakdale, someone required state licensing. >> One of the communities did >> I believe it's for like a lodging establishment, [clears throat] a state, >> I guess. What you What does that mean? >> What What's the state license? >> Uh that that has to do, I believe, with like the hotel motel type license that you get. >> So, the [clears throat] state's got to come out and spec, >> right? But we don't. So there's another question that we haven't mentioned is do we want a license or do we want the county? So typically it could be either. So right now bed and breakfast is both. So I think it'd be unusual to have this licensed by the state. We haven't considered that. Okay. >> We've just considered the county and uh and local. And I think the issue comes in when you're looking at >> nuisance [snorts] and people you know having parties and maybe their problem property. >> Then you know it'd be nice for us to just you know, three, right? It would be nice for us to just revoke it, right? The idea. So, if this moves forward, the next steps if if the planning commission wants to move forward with this, we're going to work closer with the licensing body at the county and just see what our options are in terms of, you know, maybe they license and we don't license, but we have the ability to send verified [clears throat] complaints to them and they agree to act on those, you know. So, I mean, there's different options how to move forward with that. So, in the rural district, um there was uh last year, maybe a year and a half ago, there was a a property that somebody wanted to develop for a commercial use and they wanted to have transient lodging in there and and they weren't able to do their commercial use. But if this would have been open to them, they would have had that set up as transient lodging in the middle of the rural district in the same area that we were fighting to keep them from going into it. Would they just be able to get in there then just like that? And I mean >> that's why you need a conditional use permit. >> Yeah, we we need to have some some guard rail. >> I think we can all agree that there should be a conditional use permit if it happens. >> Yeah, I agree 100% with that. >> Yep, for sure. And we should limit where they can be. They shouldn't just be everywhere. and we should limit the quant quality quantity of them. >> I always have a concern about starting something and then there's an issue and either it doesn't get resolved or you're you're creating a a problem for the homeowners or they're already there and then all everybody has to jump through hoops and go to court [clears throat] and all this happy garbage. I rather prevent a problem than create a problem and then have to go and fix it. That that's why I like that the three strikes you're out. You know, if you get you get three complaints just grew up, >> three complaints and if you know after the third one, your license is revoked or your conditional use permit is revoked. >> Any one of these properties that are currently not registered or not homestead, it could easily be a long-term rental and it could have a family that's living there. I keep thinking about we we are have a shorting house housing a housing shortage right now and we're going to allow short-term rentals to be purchased in our community. I just I I'm not very for it for right now. >> I just don't believe that the short-term rentals that the value is there and that would be the underlying reason somebody would purchase a property. >> That's why these last >> I that you're but you're drawing an assumption you don't know either. You don't know the history of why they purchased that and why that's there. They may be in a position where okay, I've got it. I'm I'm in a transition of my life or my family. I can make a little bit of revenue to try to cover some of the mortgage or the cost of this house. So, I'm going to do this short term. I'm going to do this temporarily, but I I don't think that you we don't know. So, I can't say I don't think we don't know if they if these people purchased that home specifically for this reason. >> A few of them I can tell you I I do know because I did the research. >> But, but what do you So, tell me, how do you know, Jay? >> Because I looked it up and I know the person and they're a real estate agent and they and they own a house in Still Water and they don't live in this home and they're renting it out and and they filled this out. >> Are they But are they renting out short-term or they renting out longterm? They're doing short-term rentals. It's Airbnb and it's like five five nights. It's on the website, >> but a B we're at B&B. We're not we're talking B&Bs again. We're not >> He's a nonowner occupant. He's non homestead, >> right? But >> he's a real estate agent and he signed our paperwork that says >> Yeah, I understand >> that you're you're owner occupied residence. So, fraudulently filled this paperwork out knowing as a real estate agent that that [clears throat] wasn't true information. So, I mean, I don't want to reward people like that. I just don't think that's I don't think that's fair. >> Yeah. >> And he's in on a large piece of acorage. So, I mean, and it might not be as you might not think that that's an impact, but I can hear my neighbors. They have little girls and when they scream, it's startling, you know, and so now all of a sudden you're going to have you don't know who's over there screaming and why they're screaming. They were screaming because they were playing. But if somebody's screaming because they're playing and it's a different voice, I mean, it's I don't know. I just I'm concerned about our housing stock and I the disruption to our community by having short-term rentals. I don't like them. [clears throat] >> Sorry. >> No, you're fine. [clears throat] >> That's it's a tough one. I I have to admit I've been using short-term rentals a lot lately. A lot. And they're very convenient. And it's not because it's a destination. >> It's as I'm traveling through. We stop. We spend the night, we go on. So, I'm using them a lot. Um, but in my neighborhood, I don't want to see it. >> Your HOA is not gonna But I think that's another piece. >> Yeah, >> we got to remove HOAs because I don't know if there's an HOA. >> But it doesn't matter where I'm living. It doesn't matter to everybody else who's not in an HOA. >> I don't care where I'm living. I just don't I wouldn't want that as >> I would want it as my neighbor. >> So, I guess the and I think you started off with the question actually. Are we solving a problem other than the council is asking us, >> right, >> saying that they'd like to do this apparently, you know, with the three to one vote. So, if we're not solving a problem, then I guess I'm not sure. There's 11 people. Is there a line of people waiting to do it? I don't think so. >> Right. >> But I mean, I mean, I I >> You might not be solving a problem, but you're [clears throat] putting those guide rails in that you mentioned before. Is that going to happen? So, should we regulate it? >> Well, so so yeah. So, I'm okay with certain guide rles rails. that says in certain areas. I'm I'm I have a little challenge is we just say it's open to anybody that fills out the paperwork. >> And I I think Jane's perspective [clears throat] is there are guard rails already in place that aren't being dealt with. >> Correct. >> Yep. >> Probably more of an enforcement issue there goes back to compliance like the other things. [clears throat] City staff doesn't have the resources to enforce the compliance. >> Right. >> So here we go again. >> So should work is more >> cost. >> Yeah. It says right in here, you know, enforce regulations would be difficult and costly. All right. Neighborhood nuisances such as noise and gatherings. I'm in a neighborhood. You know, I I know what a nuisance is. >> I never used to be in a neighborhood. Now I'm in a neighborhood. >> Can I ask a question? I'm sorry. Did I interrupt you? I'm sorry. If No, I just left. Um, [clears throat] when you have those guardrails in place, I'm a I'm a rule follower, so this is probably a bad person to be coming from, but if you have rules in place and somebody's considering doing that, would knowing that it's written down, make that person stop and think, I know some don't stop and think, oo, I have to get permission to do this. with no guard rails, a person says, "Oh, there's no rule against it, so why can't I have it?" So, do you think it makes a difference to have the guardrails or not have the guardrails? >> It does because I don't think people know that they're not allowed. >> Yeah, I'm sure they don't. >> Yeah. So, that's kind of what I'm thinking. Like, if you have an HOA, it says in the HOA, a lot of them say you cannot have short-term rentals. So, people can see in black and white. But to counter that point, people aren't going to know whether they're not supposed to or not either way. >> Well, so the code is just >> the code is silent on the issue, right? So you have to understand the code, read the code, >> understand licensing. So >> if you just thought this was a good idea, I want to short-term rental. Then >> if you read it, it's doesn't say anywhere that these are not allowed. But I guess part of it is other than the group of us here that are involved in local government, if I'm living wherever and I'm know I'm going to be gone for six months and I'm going to put my house on VBR, I'm 90% not going to check city ordinance determine whether or not I can do this. >> You aren't going to. >> We would say I'm a rule follower. I would check >> and but that's goes with anything. But it allows the neighbors to say something and go to the city and the city can say, "We don't have a permit for that and so we're going to have to shut it down or tell them they have to, you know, revoke it or cancel or whatever it is." Now, you could do a more than 30 days. If you want to find a way to get around it, it's got to be 30 or more days and then they just they don't need anything then. >> So, >> I'd be interested to know what this what the city of Woodbury does for compliance. So, if they don't allow them at all, >> right? I like their >> Are they enforcing anything? Well, I would say it's a lot easier to enforce you can't do it than it is to enforce um you can do it with restrictions. So, if we're trying to make it easy on enforcement, then you say no, none of it >> because that that makes it easy. Then you go to Airbnb and say you're out of compliance. So, if we're worried about resources on how to enforce it, well, then to me that makes it very simple. you allowing zero >> because once you start so it's either zero or everything is allowed if you're worried about because I don't think you build a policy around whether people will follow the rules or not right you do it for is it the right thing for the community so that's my two cents is I would not be for just cart blanc anybody can do it um if we put some very specific guide rails in it sure um with areas but um you really want to simplify, you just still say zero. And >> well, I pulled up Woodbury and they I see [clears throat] um four, five, maybe six less than a dozen. Less than a dozen, but they're popping up. >> They're there. >> They're all town homes. I guess are there any single family homes? >> Well, 799. Let's see. Oh, let's see. That might be that might be Maplewood. That's Maplewood. [clears throat] >> How many [snorts] town homes do we have now? I mean that would be a guide if you said town homes only, you know, multif family only. >> Well, let me ask the question of the group. What's what's the other side of this? Why would why why the need for it to allow them? >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Why would they prohibit it before? >> But why is there a mark? I mean, what's the value providing other than I'm a property owner, right? >> I've got rights. This is my house. I should be able to do what I want with it. >> You should as a homeowner. Well, that and that's so I think we need to look at the other side of that the coin and understand that perspective as well. >> But I can tell you I mean just looking at looking this up these last two people bought it as a as a Airbnb. >> But you know that's private property that's America. That's what very privy rights are important to us that you get to be able to deal with what you own. >> They might be renting out for a year and turning around selling it. You know I mean that's how real estate works, right? You sell for a profit. >> Yeah. >> They could just put a full one year or six month rental in there. Why do they have to do short-term rentals? >> Maybe [clears throat] they're waiting. >> Hard to find a longerterm rental to speculate on. >> Yeah. Right. Exactly. >> But I just, you know, I think the Airbnbs are fine. We just need to get these people that we have in town either in compliance or cancel their cancel their permit because they are not truly >> the only thing that's permitted right now is a bed and breakfast. So, if they're not going to treat it as a bed and breakfast, then they're not permitted, >> right? >> Because we don't have short-term rentals. >> Correct. So, I think I think we need to focus on getting getting these straightened out before we even take on something bigger that's going to be more complicated because once you open up that can of worms, you cannot get the worms back in there. >> I mean, I shared the story about what happened up in uh Marina on St. Croy. They had [clears throat] to they had to go to court with that person. They couldn't get him to stop the um the bed and breakfast there. And he he bought it with the idea of doing it. He already he knew that they weren't allowed and he fought [clears throat] it. And the neighbors had to fight with him. lab neighbors had to he shut off the street so that the neighbors couldn't even get to their home and so then the neighbors had to sue him. So I read that whole story on that person. So once you once you bring them in, it's going to be really hard to get them out and and they weren't even allowing it and they were having a difficulty get them out getting him out. [cough] >> So number one, should the zoning code be updated to allow short-term rentals? I say no. >> You say no. I say yes. >> I say no. >> Say no. >> No. >> Tom, did you have an opinion? >> I never have an opinion. [laughter] >> He's thinking, [clears throat] >> you know, I >> I think we I think we should in the sense of private property rights. >> Agreed. or you know, here's my thought too that you say that and and like I said, I've used them. I don't know if now's the time. >> I I agree with that. >> I feel like more research maybe uh more talking with the staff and seeing what they they think, what kind what can we put into place. I I'm not totally totally against it, but I don't know [clears throat] if just right now saying yay or nay is the way to go. I but I don't want this to turn into 38th in Chicago because this has come around a lot and I'm referencing Minneapolis and George Floyd Square where they've spent millions of dollars on research and surveys and come back and keep on kicking the candle. >> I don't think there need we have the information that we need to know. Woodbury doesn't allow them. Hugo doesn't allow them. They're they're growing communities. We're a growing community. I I we're not a destination like the St. Croy River. [clears throat] >> We have a housing shortage. I mean, these two last ones that recently sold were starter homes that a family could be living in. And I just I just that's gut-wrenching to me. I think that's really sad. >> Doesn't have them. >> I'm the bed and breakfast. I'm [clears throat] sure. But like I said, it's I I don't see the need for something like that right now. And I'm I mean, there's no more I'm for, you know, people to be able to do what they want to do. But I think we have to also consider the other people in the neighborhood and what's really needed and what's just thrown up here. [clears throat] It's it's been prohibited before and um there there isn't a big demand. There are problems with it. So I don't think short-term rentals aren't aren't needed at this point in time. >> What about a paradigm shift? What about the property rights of the of people that live in town that are our citizens >> that are already here? They do they have way more important than some [clears throat] investor and that lives in California or Colorado or wherever the hell they are coming in and buying our inventory. >> Just change zoning districts and make it this and that and it's >> we already have lodging, we have resorts, that's that's transient. I mean, isn't that enough? >> I just like to speak too because I I've used the B&B thing [clears throat] going on to like a graduation or something like that and usually it's a townhouse and what do I have right beside me? a big townhouse with Reynolds in it. [clears throat] So, I can imagine what I'd get. >> Got a whole bunch of them right over here that just got built right next to my house. >> Yeah. I mean, all of a sudden there you're going to have a whole community right there that's going to Oh, we now we can do short-term rentals with a little signature. >> Even some of the We go to Palm Springs most years for a good month or so. >> Must be nice. >> Yeah. Just that's all I have to say. No. [laughter] Um um but no but but even those communities many of them because that's a big that's a short that's everywhere you get >> they're pulling back and many of them are saying 30 days is the minimum for example because of the issues that uh short-term is causing uh there there was a communitywide vote in Cathedral Hills which is one of the communities and they voted I think Palm Desert's the same thing I couldn't rent mine for less than 30 days now I could still rent it >> um But my point is they're even starting to pull back because of the impact some of the neighborhoods. Now that's different because every street has, you know, 30% of them are rentals. So I I get I totally get that and we would never be there. But there's just a downside is what I'm saying. [clears throat and cough] >> We have a housing shortage. >> We have a big housing shortage. People want [clears throat] to own homes and build equity and have their families. >> Okay. Are there more questions for us? [laughter] >> Come on. >> We're only on number one actually. >> So, you know, the consensus of the commission is that no >> majority. I mean, >> it's not it's not it's not majority. >> It's not you know. >> Yeah. >> It's almost a majority. >> I mean, it's not the not unanimous. >> Two to four. I'm sorry. It's not unanimous. >> Yeah. >> Um but >> I think if if it is allowed, I don't think there [clears throat] needs to be a zoning district or a lot size. I think there does need to be a conditional use permit. >> Um I think there should be a limit. >> And uh I don't know that the R1 or R3 occupancy regulation fits a short-term rental description that well. >> Um and in my opinion, it could be a single family, it could be an apartment, it could be a townhouse. Um, as long as it's, [clears throat] you know, obviously the HOA needs to be approved if they're in an HOA and, uh, needs to have a conditional use permit. >> The C is going to cover that. >> Yeah. >> Is that good direction? >> It is. >> Claire's mud. >> The minority would says says that should be the restrictions. >> If if they go ahead with it, I agree with what you just said. >> Yeah. And and and if I could just add one more thing on there, if if that is the case, could it not be everywhere? just find, you know, maybe in transitional areas where it's commercial on one side and we're coming into the residential or there's a buffer in there somewhere. >> There there is conflicted whether there should be a zone any there should be any zoning district confinement >> because you're saying yes and we're saying no >> no to >> zoning that it should be it will be anywhere. >> I think if we do it it should be by in certain areas. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I I I could see doing it in certain areas, outer edge, suburban against commercial. >> I don't know how you do that necessarily, but um multif family units [clears throat] >> things where there's already activity where you got a lot of activity going on instead of in a quiet neighborhood. >> All right. All right. Thank you. Thanks. >> All right. [laughter] Moving on. That >> was a lot of fun. >> We all still like each other. >> Next item is the uh 2026 work plan. I hate it. >> The VM. >> Just kidding. >> My topic is not as fun. [laughter] [clears throat] >> All right. So, tonight we're looking at the 2026 planning commission work plan. I wanted to first start off with talking about what the 2025 work plan had on it and what we accomplished this year. Um, so in February, the planning commission reviewed the batch of housekeeping amendments in uh for the second item. We did not have any cannabis applications this year, so we didn't need to do any refining or tweaks to our cannabis ordinance. Um Jason provided an update in November on the old village study and that getting rolled into the 2050 comp plan process. Um we talked about short-term rentals tonight. Um so I didn't check that off the list yet, but we had that discussion today. Uh the planning commission reviewed the CIP in November. We had our annual training in March. Um, there is a city council workshop tomorrow regarding public hearing notices and city staff has updated the mailing notice template to [clears throat] have more robust information. Um, there was the joint planning commission city council workshop in February. And then we received two gold leaves and step four and step five of the green steps program for promote promoting sustainability and sustainable actions in the city. Um, we implemented an interactive city map that was provided to you in an update in October. And then throughout the year, we've reviewed a handful of land use applications um, and hosted public hearings on those. So, that's what we did this year. Looking at 2026, so I built it off of the same 2025 formatting. The items with the blue circles are new for 2026. Um, so I'll just go line item by line item and then we can stop and discuss any changes or updates on the fly. Um, first is processing the housekeeping amendments we identified this year. Again, these are minor non-p policy related items, just cleaning up text or um, corrections. Um, I have on here short-term rental registration and regulation ordinance. Based on our conversation tonight, it sounds like maybe planning commission is not interested in pursuing that. So, we can take that off the list if if you all agree. Um, reviewing the CIP, again, that's an annual item. Preparing for the 2050 comp plan process, that's a new item. Um, providing training to the planning commission, that's another annual item. And then the next three are processing land use applications for city property. First is the fireh hall and parks building. Second is the city 76 acre park. [clears throat] And third is for the 180 acres. um not guarant gu guaranteeing that all three of these will come forward in 2026, but we'll be doing community engagement and [clears throat] I assume maybe towards the end of 2026 or early 2027 we'd be looking at some sort of application. Um [clears throat] and then holding the planning commission city council joint workshop that will be in January of this coming year. Uh reviewing some AURs that are expiring soon. Um, and then I left on there's promoting sustainability that was bumped up to a level two based on planning commission request. And then also based on planning commission request, I added language relating to promoting open space developments and wildlife habitat corridors. And then um, leaving on there again is processing land use applications as they come up. >> I have a question for commission. Does anybody can anybody what is gold leaf B3 and greenstep programs? >> Uh those are all sustainable programs if I'm not mistaken. B3 is >> Do you know any details on them? >> I've read some of it. >> Some of it is the >> I can chime in if you guys if you guys need it. Um the Green Steps program is a five-step program for cities to promote sustainable initiatives. So we got steps one and two I think in 2012 and 2013. So it's it's long-standing program voluntary. Uh in 2023 [clears throat] or 24 we got step three. Step four and five we got in 25. Um steps four and five are around collecting metrics around sustainability. There are I think 29 action items and then gold leaf has 44 action items. So this is just to continue our work on on green steps and gold leaf. Okay. I would ask staff that they do a formal presentation to us on each of these so we understand what we're committing to as a number two. >> Sure. Uh just so you know, there's um >> I think we're planning on having the green steps coordinator from MPCA come out early next year to present to council. >> Okay. >> Did this used to be that tree city stuff? >> Tree cities is part of green steps, but it's just one small part. >> One small part of it. >> Yeah. I'm happy to send out a link of it's like pretty robust program so it's it's kind of difficult to explain all of the the steps and initiatives that are associated with it but I'm happy to send out a link so you guys can get familiar with it. >> Could you also share what those first five things were that we've accomplished? >> Sure. So step one I can't speak to step one through three is before my time so much. Um but I I know it was a resolution to be a part of green steps. Uh step two is some uh reaching those milestones or at least working towards some of those milestones. Step three is uh I think it's getting working towards the 29 action items. But within those 29 action items, there are like 10 um steps that the city can take to hit those action items. Step four and five again are our metrics. So I know that a couple of things that we [clears throat] accomplished I think between 24 and 25 I think we had a storm water assessment improvement uh improved energy efficiency in city buildings uh mostly due to LED lighting. Uh >> just build a new building and you're much more energy efficient than your old one and ice. >> Easy [laughter] points. >> Yes. Uh average miles per gallon for the city fleet decreased. [clears throat] Um I think uh new green space was added. Uh there are a couple more but th those are some of the top line ones. >> The holding ponds maybe are one of the >> Yeah, maybe initiatives towards that. Gold leaf um is kind of a it's a program that comes after green steps. So to to continue on your green steps work, you you join gold leaf to we only got two leaves this year, but one of them is for forming a team uh that we do internally and then the next was for being part of the tree stewards program with Washington [clears throat] County. >> And then B3 >> B3 is just a way it's part of green steps, but it's uh a way for the city to track energy efficiency in city operations. more of a reporting thing. >> Okay. >> Do that in a number of buildings. [snorts] >> Um, so are there any changes the commission would like to see? Adding items, changing priority levels of items. >> Just may if you go back one, it's by the way, this is all looks good and I'm fine with this. I It's more of a question. So, I know the 2050 comprehensive plan process starts in 27 27 28. >> We're doing some initial work this year, I would say. Yeah, it's a long process. >> Yeah. And so, yeah, I know. And is that do we does that does it need to be considered as a three or four? I'm fine. I just because uh if you're going to do some things on it anyways, I guess if if not much happened until 27, then are we having to do a run on that? I just curious. It's nothing. I'm >> just wondering if that should be a three. But >> I imagine this item would be on the planning commission work plan probably until 2029. And so I originally put it at a level four and then my goal would be as we get closer to finalizing the plan, the priority level would increase because we're spending more, you guys are spending more time on the plan. >> I'm fine with that. I just >> get your feedback. [clears throat] >> Sorry. Any other changes or comments on the 2026 draft? I did great on my first try. That's the first [laughter] you did do well. >> All right. Um, so the other item I'd like to discuss with you guys tonight is that joint workshop with city council that's happening in January. Um, typically I like to field if you guys have any questions or topics you'd like for staff to prepare for this discussion with city council. Um, otherwise typically all that we would review is the work plan together. I I'd like to learn a little bit more about this $2 million they spent on this 70ome acres between the two uh passive parks, the regional park reserve and Sunfish Park to put that big ball complex supposedly. That's one of the plans. And I was wondering that might be a little bit more appropriate over in that 180 acres. you might want to consider a different site for that type of use. You know, that uh that kind of blindsided me. I didn't know [clears throat] that was happening until the other day. All right. So, I'll just prepare that the work plan and then that one discussion item for the joint work. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Because I from from one of my council members, he said it's already a done deal and I don't know how it can be a done deal when it hasn't gone through any process or even the residents knowing that this has been done supposedly by taking a million dollars from the sewer fund that we have to pay back. updates on paths and crosswalks, especially tied to the county, [clears throat] >> you know. >> Yep. >> I I will, you know, there's >> and >> the sidewalk over here on Wildflower that the city said they're going to take responsibility for. >> Uhhuh. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Not yet. >> Another thing is is Still Water Way. That's kind of like a freeway down there. It's the cut over by the gas station and past the cemetery. >> There's they did a real sharp curve there. It's it's not the safest place in the world. >> And I think any other and you guys may do the tonight. Any other updates? You know, Pioner, we've got hear the report that the school is >> is up for sale to a community group. >> Heard it sold. >> I heard it sold. >> It sold for four and a half million. [clears throat] >> An update on that is the Valley Community Center has been looking at sites throughout the St. Croy Valley. We've been talking to them for over a year now. Um, they are in their due diligence process to see if their project is feasible. So, they should know. >> All right. >> Are they locked in on that site or would they consider the 180 acres? >> I think they really like that site and any update on I mean other properties for sale in the city. I Fury is still [clears throat] >> phase two hasn't come back yet from the fire station. >> Has not come back yet. we have emailed. So we are in the process we uh have [clears throat] we've uh ordered an appraisal for the site. The survey is basically done. We had to survey the site. >> Okay. >> Um title [clears throat] work came back for that. Um so hopefully the survey will be done and we can do a rightaway dedication that will come to the planning commission. >> We're kind of jumping outside of now we're kind of in the staff updates. So let me go back to the questions for the council. >> Okay. We'll see a recommendation from from you guys on the work plan. >> I move to recommend approval of the 2026 planning commission work plan as presented by staff. >> I'll second that. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Thank you. Have your answer. >> Thanks, Sophia. >> And now we get the city council update. >> Okay. Um so this agenda was drafted prior to the 122 city council meeting. So the RLS 132 has been pushed to a later meeting. They requested to be tabled and then upcoming meetings >> RLS 132 give us is that >> that is the crearyy. >> Okay. >> Um applicant is John >> platting. Yeah. Okay. >> Upcoming meetings. Uh we won't meet again until next year. January 12th. And then the joint city council planning commission workshop is January 13th which is a Tuesday. >> And at 6:30 >> it is. >> The date >> um January 13th is the workshop. January 12th is the first planning commission meeting of the year. So you'll have a a double header there. All right. Anyone else have any other comments or concerns? If not, 7:25, I can do this. Uh we will adjourn the [laughter] the December 8th uh plan commission meeting for the city of Lake Elmo.