on the west side of Keats Avenue, excuse me, on the east side of Keats Avenue. On the west side of Keats Avenue, the city has a trail that uh runs from 8th Street North to Fifth Street North. So, runs parallel to the county trail, but doesn't go quite as far because the county trail goes all the way down to 94 to Woodbury. This particular trail, Lake Elmo Avenue North. This is north of Stillwater Boulevard North. This runs on both sides of the road. The south end of the trail is on the west side of the road. And then as you get up farther, the trail goes over to the east side of the road. This particular trail is at the intersection of uh Boulevard and Jamm Avenue North. It's right at the roundabout. It's that short little section right there. That's the trail just does that little area there and that's it. We do snowblow. There's a proportion. It's called sidewalk because it's concrete. But we do do across Jamaica Avenue North along Still Water Cross. One of the questions was if we were to maintain the county trails, snow blow or do snow removal on there equipment man is required to do that within the rightway, the countyy's rightway. There's basically there's two different seasons. Early season snowfall, we can run a truck down these trails. But as the season goes on, we get more and more snow that called snowfall comes into the trails, approaches the trails. Then we have to run a piece of equipment down with the snowblower on it that would do this. Early season snows, it take one pickup truck. Estimated labor to do the county trails would be one to two hours for man hours. That is late season snow. We'd have to use a tool cap with a blower and estimated three to four hours because that piece of equipment travels much slower speed. We'd have to go around to do those trails within the county right away. Questions or anything on that? >> You know how many That I do that I do not know. I have to find out. That's per event. >> Typical event. Like I said, early season is going a lot quicker because you're running a pickup truck, but when you get later in the season now, you're using different piece of equipment that goes a lot slower. >> Thank you. Y >> so question related to cost for doing that when you use one man hour versus clearing the roadways what's what's the impact in clearing roadways >> um roadways come first this would be secondary to the roads sidewalks would be first because we have our ordinance we have to follow sidewalks be second followed by the trails So, we don't know what this would cost the city overall. Do you have a ballpark figure that takes into account labor equipment with an average events per year? Well, if we decide to remove snow on all city trails, we'd be looking at getting a different piece of equipment, a side actual machine for that articulates because a lot of these city- owned trails go behind properties through our easements and everything. And they to do it with a pickup truck, we're going to be doing more damage than can be done because the truck doesn't turn like an articulating piece of equipment. So, a piece of equipment like that, the city's going to be about 100,000 120,000 uh I did not figure out how many hours we required for staff to remove snow on all 6 milesi of trail >> question I think part of the discussion we had last year is in some areas of the city there aren't sidewalks there are just trails And the city ordinance says adjacent propert. But if you have a trail, there's no requirement for them to clean trail. So like in the Royal Club, we have a concrete sidewalk that goes up and then all of a sudden it becomes a trail joints in and it's a trail for three or four blocks and that never gets clean because there's no properties don't have to clean it because there's no requires it. We had a similar situation down in the southwest part or something. Marty and I were talking looking on the map. It was a similar situation where there's no sidewalk, there's a paved trail and so the owners were complaining why doesn't that why does that get clean? And there's no ordinance that doesn't define what a sidewalk is in a way that would allow us to force them proper to clean the walks. That was forcing people to walk on the street. And so part of this was can we redefine sidewalk in a way that makes the trails you know where to function as a sidewalk sidewalks because actually our building requirements are when the developer puts in a development he has to put a sidewalk on one side of the street. So I asked the question, so why do we not have a sidewalk instead of a trail over a large section, you know, in the Royal G both on the south end and the north end? And I never could get an answer wave that sidewalk requirement, but now the adjoining property owners don't have to clean it and the sidewalk just part just ends. People have to get a walk on the street. >> I've also noticed quite a bit there there's sidewalks on one side of the road and then there's a trail on the other side a lot of these new developments. So I don't know that plays a role into this also because the trail sidewalks are getting cleaned on one side and obviously you're saying trail part of the discussion was along street >> where we have sidewalk on the south side of the road. There's a trail on the north side and sidewalk is behind homes that don't necessarily have a frontage on the sidewalk. And so part of the question was why would those certain homes there's a few there and there's some over city as well. street requires the home behind their house. So I think that was part of >> Sorry. pivot a little bit. >> I guess maybe I think for me this is coming down I obviously it'd be nice to have everything cleared and be able to do all that. I think you know it's balancing that with the financial aspect of it and the the the staff availability and the prioritization of this and I know you mentioned obviously this would be prioritized third kind of on that list of roads, sidewalks and trails. How do you see this impacting your department? Do you feel like this is something that's within reach with the current staff uh number or is this going to require bringing on additional help? Obviously, it depends on how much snowfall events we get. But just kind of on a typical winter, does this seem like something that the department can handle right now or is it going to require additional resource, human resources? I think on a personnel side it it require more staff because 26 miles of trails is quite a bit of time. It would it I'd say it take a couple days. I be honest I can't tell you how long it take because I've personally never had a have a staff remove snow off that many miles of road or trails within the city. So it could even come down to where we'd have to utilize or have to get two pieces of equipment to get it done more efficient because a person could have it where we remove the snow or while we're doing it we get another snowfall just like you know big one we would be starting all over again. It'd be never ending battle for staff to try to get caught up until you had no snow. So it would I think over time be trial and error where we would have to require more staff another person another piece of equipment to we get this trails cleared in a timely fashion. When I was a city engineer in Virginia every sidewalk in the city every street has sidewalks but we did it on the lowest priority after everything else was done to go clean the sidewalks and um yeah wasn't as convenient but the public demanded the sidewalks be clean and that's how it was done. So we didn't have any additional staff the streets and the city parking lots. >> If it could be done it was done. >> It could be done it was done. Sometimes it was number of these before they got clean, but the decision was weren't adding staff to do it. We dropped the priority down and did it as we had. How how did the community respond to that? I you know, I guess kind of like sometimes when it all becomes an expectation and then maybe, you know, just based off other projects that are going on, it can't get done for two weeks. Did you notice that the residents would have a hard time understanding that that wasn't a priority when it couldn't get done right away or Were they pretty understanding? >> They're pretty understanding. Usually about the third day after a snowstorm they started off the streets and they did the avenues first because you know people live down the block half a block to get on the avenue and then the sidewalks would take them across the city then they did the streets secondary. So it was it was a little lower priority but it was done in a way that was more logical in terms of what was the number of people that would be using those sidewalks and how do you get the the greatest use done first. >> And so it wasn't necessarily like a a city policy that the trails would be cleared. They could be cleared if we have the availability. Is that I mean it wasn't like an ordinance like we have for our sidewalks where we're required to clean >> the sidewalks. There wasn't an ordinance. It was just a service that was provided. >> And I'm not in favor of all the trails either at this point. I'm not sure. I know our follows a trail behind um behind the homes homes, you know. >> Do you I mean do you feel like with seeing the the trails that would the trails that we do have I mean do you see some as priority over others? >> I haven't studied them in that level of detail. I think that in some cases if we redefine a sidewalk, some of that would be done by residents because it would be considered a sidewalk and not a trail. But I think you take a look at what are the I think you pointed something like along Lake Elmo Avenue those may be the higher users you know what's the density of development adjacent to those. >> Yeah. >> I mean but I think maybe we took a realistic approach and said what are the would be the highest use provide the benefit for the most number of people and we did those on a low priority that might be a compromise that would be out there and and I would guess our HOA clears city trails. I'm guessing there's others that do as well for the benefit of the residents and so I wouldn't propose to take those over either. I mean they're already doing it and it's not a financial burden we choose to do it. We don't have to but our residents like it and they just again when the company that clears the driveways and the parking lots for the HOA get done then they come back and do the trail. It's a lower priority because the same company's cleaning commercial driveways and things too. So eventually they get there and they do those walking trails that are city owned but they serve our development. So I I guess I don't think there's any hard in the city. I think the council feels way I'm not going to fight it, but my sense would be we're going to do some let's pick some that formal network and provide the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people and go that route. >> I would want to see an ordinance very specific carve out for that stretch in Royal because that clearly to me was wrong to not have that sidewalk when it clearly was supposed to and to classify that as a sidewalk for plowing by the adjacent property owners. Um I I don't have an interest I mean we've heard about this topic now for we're on the sixth year we we've heard about this topic >> and to me it comes up but it's nowhere near a I have never gotten the impression that it is a priority amongst our residents. It comes up in specific segments, usually around bad snowfalls. Uh, but I've never gotten the impression that's it's a high priority. I would never I I don't think it would be worth our while to invest funds for parks equipment so we could do trails. I I think a reasonable thing would and we've discussed it before when we were talking about the crosswalks and similar to what you were mentioning is there a for sidewalk purposes in areas where our expectation is the adjacent property owner does it would we want to do a specific place where this is our hightra route for people getting into the old village as an example or in Fifth Street where they're using it to get to specific businesses. where it it benefits the city and residents. It benefits both of us to do it from economies of scale, but I would only see that being for sidewalks on in specific areas where it's our our high pedestrian users. And >> sorry. >> Well, and how to determine it. I I that's a whole other story because when we discussed with the crosswalks we're like okay within the old village we want to have long-term wise here's our transportation path for how we want to get people to there and we discussed Lever and you know eventually Lake Elmo but I could see that but I I don't see this as really the highest of priorities. >> Yeah. No I agree like trying to kind of think of like the compromise on it too even going down the route of kind of the the early season snowfall where we don't have to at least invest in new capital equipment either. Uh because correct we have the equipment if I saw that right from the early snowfalls where with the truck that equipment we have it would be the late snowfall equipment that would if we decided to go that route that's where we'd have to start making some capital expenditures. Yeah, these trails are running within the rightway. A person could run a truck down that and we could use our current equipment that we have like a tool cap. Now, if we talk about doing like all the trails, ones that go behind the homes for the easements and everything, that's where we're going to require a different piece of equipment. >> Is it because it's also the undulation, there's slope changes, there's tighter turns. >> Tighter turns is the biggest thing. >> Got it. >> Less right away. That is correct. >> I think our trail is big. foot trail. >> I'm not sure that >> I think that back said if it's a pave something pave in the rightway in front of a home is a site adjacent clear and then the other if we have some specific high density trails that we think would get some benefit wouldn't take up a huge amount of time or equipment we could look public do it on as available basis in a very small but beneficial area. There's a lot of logic to that. >> So to hear right so you'd be saying for like the neighborhoods where they have the trail on one side, sidewalk on the other, both sides >> both sides be cleared by Yeah. Okay. >> So there would be a lot of people asking, I have lived here for 10 years and I was never required to because the sidewalk across the street was plowed and that's how our kids walk to school. What is the value gain for now having both sides? That would be the question people would ask. >> Inside Eastston Village, inside Pte, inside LAR, inside >> Legacy >> Legacy, basically all the new neighborhoods post 2015, they have sidewalk on one side, trail on the other. >> Yep. Often >> in either sidewalk or trail, but they're all on one side. >> Yeah, that's a good point because Yeah. point of clearing one side is so you can get to the school bus. >> Correct. >> And you know it is unfortunate that one resident has to be the one to clear it for everybody else. >> And that's the way it ends up being too. Like there I'll see many instances where one person is doing three properties because they know the other two aren't going to do it. >> Yeah. There's a there's a way to word that to say, you know, there's a concrete sidewalk on one side, that's the sidewalk must be cleared. If there's, you know, trail has written. >> So like on go up a street onto 32 and then go keep going up to 33rd. So that's where there's a trail that goes on the south side. Yep. North side. Yep. >> And that was part of our discussion too. Like I I never understood why we were places why we have trails on one side kind. And I I think our best guess was the trails were to transport across the neighborhoods to get to place destinations outside your neighborhood. Your sidewalk is within your neighborhood. your bus stops is to get to your neighbor's house. Whereas your trail is your recreational long distance usage, >> which right now for a lot of these neighborhoods is just an intra neighborhood pathway >> because it's not connected. >> They're not where they're not. It's, you know, the longterm plan is to have all these connect, but it's not that way right now. >> Yeah. And and so maybe that's too where maybe this is just premature of you know down the road this makes a lot more sense when these trails are connected and you know because then it is serving that purpose of connecting neighborhood to neighborhood versus right now the sidewalks and the trails for most of these neighborhoods are essentially creating the same outcome at this point. >> So I just have a question about um What is why do we need different equipment for early season snowfall opposed to late season snowfall? >> So early season snowfall, you don't want the snow banks. >> The snow banks are a lot lower as the snow banks start growing. The plow doesn't have the capability to throw the snow. >> Yeah. >> Over those banks. It just falls back in. >> Okay. >> Where you have a blower, you're going to at least be able to pick it up and put it over the current bank. >> And on that slide, is that the equipment that is needed or do we already have that equipment? That's equipment that we do have. Got it. Okay. I I see the logic in having people out sections of the road. And I see some logic in arterials. arterial fifth street that runs east west with sidewalk behind homes not really homesing them that those get cleared in a stage manner I'm still not until there's a tax base that provides amenities to the city beyond rooftops taxes on residents to provide that amenity. I mean, as many people that say this city does it, that city does it. You can find cities all over the metro that don't necessity given there's still connectors that still be used during the winter. Trails may be less is village parkway an arterial >> I don't know what it's probably >> cuz Jack had already said that that was designed similar to fifth it just doesn't have a med >> I think it'll end up being a collector meaning that all the traffic I'm trying to think where else would that similar street to go all the way across cityoulevards homes. I think that makes sense. And I see what Jeff is indicating village. It's a very small section. my opinion again that there's trail on one side and sidewalk on another. That's one instance right now on the other road on the other roads in that neighborhood. It's just sidewalk on one side, nothing on the other side. >> Yes. to find where there's a concrete sidewalk on one side. The adjacent property owner must clear the concrete sidewalk where there's only trail on one side of the street. Adjacent property must clear the clarify that >> just clarify simply >> and then there's the trail that goes within Northstar on their main. But if you delineate that as that concern >> they have it in the in the main entrance road sidewalk in the front yards and trail and front yards. >> Yep. Going into legacy goes all the way in. >> Yeah. But there again it's concrete on one side as it did on the other. >> So then as indicated you have you have a delineation of asphalt versus concrete on one side. If there is no other alternative on that roadway there's pavement in front of the house both sideswalks. You have to have one. So front yards, trails are plowed by homeowner if there's no sidewalk on the other side. >> Right. And and I and I do think this as a as a tertiary third place that that like fifth street sidewalk because I don't really houses that I think of that front fifth street. They back fifth street. But I think the city should provide that as a one walkway because it's on the other side. It's a it's a larger street supposed to connect one side of the city to the other overall and right now I think hit or miss somebody that backs up to it actually go through their fence or all the way around the block. Would we want to do other areas where concrete is in the backyards? Village Parkway has that too going north south there's concrete backards, >> right? Yeah. I I just think that we probably should take care of those as a as a third, you know, priority. those areas that houses back up to it. Nobody claims ownership really that the city has ownership. There's nobody that fronts it. I think that's fair. >> I think that's really fair. So, what we're hearing is shall home owners shall take care of the paved surface in their front yard unless there's a sidewalk on the other side. And that city will do sidewalks when it's in the backyard or when it when it's on a on a street without any house. >> That's fair. >> It'll be a low priority. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Priority. everything we can, you know, since this is Pete's first year with us track that kind of see how that's going on back it's really notable. So question for you, Jeff. Um, with the Village Parkway North, >> Yep. >> Uh, 32nd Street, there's a house 11776. So that concrete on the north south part would be taken care of the city on a low tier basis or low priority basis. >> Yeah. It's not frontage. >> Exactly. Okay. Sure. Because I was curious like >> how do you even know where you start? >> The house on the corner of the parkway because technically the sidewalk is their sideyard. >> No, but I'm saying village Parkway in general does not have houses. >> Yep. I was just confirming that. >> So if you use the housing fronts piece, >> then they've got that. >> Yep. I agree with that. I was just confirming that >> because you can't expect that res the Yeah, that's to get the street, right? >> He does a good job, but he >> Well, I'm saying it's >> I mean, you know, if I fill up my my snowblower, I want to use the gas in it, right? So, maybe I do that, but I wouldn't expect. >> So, as an example where this would then be new, the Meadows, so the neighborhood around Rock Point Church, they have trails in the front yard, no sidewalks. So, this would be entirely new. We've cleared that. >> Yes. >> I think that provides us with a reasonable network of pedestrian access in areas where we have paid services and neighborhoods minimizes the amount done by the city. >> For the record, he nodded. So I just want to clarify. Are you talking about clearing the sidewalks that are just in city on city streets? >> So not county, >> right? >> Not at this point. >> And not trails, just >> correct. Correct. >> An updating ordinance for when residents do it. >> So not Elmo Avenue. Not the trail. >> Correct. >> Not unless they have a house that sidewalk. >> They have a driveway going out to it or they walk out their front door and they went straight and they run into it >> then it's theirs to take care. >> So I think this >> it's not outside their front door then no >> the simplest verbiage was probably homeowner shall clear the pavement that is in front yard unless there a sidewalk on the other side of the street and that is their that is that homeowner's responsibility. >> Right. >> Makes sense. >> So I want to bring some up. So I'm thinking of like up on 50th Street from Manning to the west. There's a trail on the north side of the road that property owner owns. >> It's a trail though. >> Yeah. >> So then we wouldn't be clearing a trail >> and there's no one front facing. There's one. There's one on the corner. >> I mean, they could do right in front of their lot. >> Yeah, that's a weird one. It' be nice to be able to get that trail to connect something whether it's at ridge or The private trail to the southbound outlet. So, we're looking at updating the ordinance to include trails. They're paved when there is no sidewalk on the opposite side of the road on the front home front. >> Paved passage. Don't make a comment between sidewalk or trail. >> Okay. Section house frontage. You start saying trail or sidewalk and then sidewalk. It can get pretty confusing. I would just bring it back to a basic paper. >> This will be a communications opportunity. >> I think we have sidewalk on one side. We should say even we're digressing here. So, >> just presenting an alternative. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I understand that. Um, are we good on that one then, staff? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay, we'll move on to purchasing policy review. >> Miller, >> this is a team of three. This is >> the whole team. discussion, but um yeah, so we looked at our city's purchasing policy that was last updated in 2018, which most um if not all of um the current staff were not here. So, it's a good opportunity to look at it and to see what um kind of aligns with our current practices um suits council's needs, obviously is um in alignment with state statute. And so, we did start by looking at what 10 different purchasing policies um and came up with some staff recommendations. So um have Clarissa um go through them with you and then we just want to see what feedback the council has on this. It's okay. I'll just go kind of go through the summary and then we can go through the actual document and focus on the things that you guys are most interested in. So just in summary, like Nicole said, we um sort of high level remove processes that didn't align with our practices. Um our policy or process documents um it's not purchasing related. So cash receiving covered elsewhere, payment vouchers, we don't really use that much. Authorization forms. So these are just things that that didn't apply anymore. um we added a quick reference guide um to clarify the options for procurement at various purchasing amounts and the approvals necessary. So there wasn't a chart before and so reading through paragraphs when you're just trying to kind of find information got a little tedious and trying to make it um easier uh to read. Uh we consolidated the construction contract services and purchase contracts that was one section and the professional services was a second section. So we combined those into one section, clarified that the um that it's the approvals necessary and the procurement options that are different. Um we added a definition for the term contract. Um and then they uh clarified the approval authority for those. Um clarified which purchases are delegated to the city administrator. It actually was in the policy um before I I had added it and then later on on my third review it's sort of hidden in this other section. So put it where it was most uh obvious. Um clarified clarified language as um you guys had interest uh had expressed interest in some of that before. Clarified language regarding the uh uniform municipal contracting law and um then just aligned some purchasing thresholds with the the purchasing threshold had increased um back in 2018. uh and then added some clarifying language regarding the RFP process. So those were kind of our main points. There were um definitely some smaller changes as we were reviewing um and as Sarah reviewed it. Um just trying to clarify and and make the language better. So uh we are happy to discuss any of the changes and answer questions and and whatnot. So the you know the contract for purchase amount those amounts line up with other 10 cities that you discussing >> the which which amounts the 175 or the >> guide >> are you talking about the different levels of the procurement like who who gets who needs to approve and >> contract for purchase amount. Yeah. Did those those kind of line up with >> there's a pretty wide >> dollar amount? >> There's a pretty wide range of other cities. Um the purchasing amounts actually that we didn't change from our earlier policy. So we didn't we didn't want to revise those. Um I would say I'd even made note at one point was it the most common was around 20,000 >> to >> I guess is is there a state statute that talks about this with city administrator former government or city manager or is it up to council they can designate >> I mean we're not going to call the city that >> I just I'm just I know that uh other governmental agencies as time has gone on and costs for goods and services have increased you know they move that number to make sense with normal procedures that they deal on an everyday basis whether it's a direct select or a letter of interest or an RFP value right so sealed bids, direct negotiation. The third one, I mean, $10,000 to me seems like a pretty low bar um in this in 2026. Certainly, I don't think we should be on like the state level where it's $100,000, right? They deal with x magnitude more than we do. But, you know, it doesn't take much to require sealed bid $10,000 or something even if you're getting three quotes or something like that. >> And just to clarify the seal in that section, those are the options available. So, you don't have to do a sealed bid, >> right? Up to 10,000. But after 10,000 >> Oh, you can you can do direct negotiated. >> Yep. Direct negotiation, cooperative purchasing. >> Yep. So, those are all options. I think the main point in that particular line is that question of um are we bringing those back? Are we bringing those to city council before we make a decision or is that something that you can delegate to the city administrator? And keep in mind the things that are already delegated to the city administrator are listed in the se that section below is this. So payroll, payroll related expenses, insurance premiums, routine operations. So a lot of what we do is in this section. So it's really sort of the um sort of extra project type stuff maybe that would come up. >> Do we have any idea when the $10,000 figure was put in place? Was it five years ago, 10 years ago? Do we have no idea? The last time this was reviewed was in 2018. So it was at least that long ago if not longer. >> But we don't know if it was still that in 2017. >> Right. Exactly. >> Correct. >> Years reviewed, but we don't >> because I could see like the first category that that's less than five and then the second line is 5 to 15. Next line is 15 to 180. I because again yes the mayor is correct. I mean inflation has over the last eight years those numbers do not reflect practice in terms of what I would at least expect and yeah we're not the state we're nowhere near but I I think those numbers can be enhanced a little bit for efficiency >> otherwise a process with number of contracts things you have you got to purchase can make it a little burdensome more than it needs to be in my opinion various levels. >> I think so. There is a statuto amount for city managers under B, >> right? >> 20,000 >> and you mentioned LMC on your discussion, right? Did they have recommendations for levels of city administrators? Is that part of your >> research? >> I could not find you. >> No recommendations. They pointed out as Sarah said that the city manager has authorization,000, >> but that was the only Do we see these uh administrative approval expenses? Um do we see what those expenses are on a routine basis? Are they shared in that's in the monthly? >> Yeah, the checklist dispersements covers almost all of the >> check in there. There's the check and balance essentially >> except that the statute actually requires that they submit a report specific dispersements once they once we approve the payment. At the next meeting we're supposed to get a list that says these are the expense that were authorized under the policy because the dispersive list doesn't tell you what was authorized. It just said we have 14 pages of dispers which one of those were authorized under this policy. And so the statute actually requires that that the city advisor provide a list to the city council at the next meeting after dispersement is approved. >> We don't we don't actually disperse in by and large we don't disperse anything that doesn't come through council. So like bond payments go out um I those don't necessarily get into a council packet but generally any checks that are cut any a goes out other than payroll. What? Might put payroll in there, too. Yeah. Yeah. So, almost every single thing dollar that goes out the door comes through your council packets. >> Except that you don't have a list that specific these are the ones that were done under the purchasing authority. The statute requires it. >> I'm sorry. 41271. >> Sure. A list of all claims paid under the authority granted to administrative staff under the purchasing policy shall be presented to the city council for informationational purpose only at the next regular schedule meeting after payment of the claim. >> You see it before then you see it before that gets mailed. You want us to re do you want us to read >> they are you give us 30 pages of bills you're going to pay and nothing says this is these are the ones that are approved under the purchasing policy. >> So for instance for instance we had recently we hired uh someone to be a lobbyist for us. Okay. And when we pay that bill, are we going to get a report on it? >> We never do. We never once got a report that said the city administrator authorized a dispersion of 10 of $8,000 for something under the personnel policy under the purchasing policy. Never got one yet. It's required under the statute. The list of dispersements, it says the meeting after this is paid. I mean we did get informed of it in our in our >> weekly one. We don't know any of the others. >> Well, no, but to your example, we did get a report. We were informed that the decision was made for the specific amount to which firm and on what date. So, we were informed >> that's the only one >> and you would see the dispersement before it's actually dispersed. So, I guess I'm confused about what the what what additional report you would like. It has to be provided the next regular meeting after the payment of the claim after the payment of the claim. >> So sometimes that payment doesn't happen in between the two meetings. >> Understand? But after the claim has been paid, you're supposed to get a list of what claims are paid under the purchasing policy authority granted. That's the statute. >> Is there something in the in the new finance soft that would give some sort of indication where you could put a note like a number note have a note at the bottom saying these items were associated. I'm just trying to >> So, so we don't actually So, so our our practice actually like we don't we don't pay anything you guys as the sorry >> the payroll is paid according to the policy. Obviously, we pay that on time, but we don't actually pay anything until after the city council meeting. So, you guys are are essentially approving these checks. Nothing nothing. So, while Nicole may have um hired a lobbyist before that lobbyist has actually paid that dispersement, that check approval >> comes through you. We actually don't utilize really technically utilize a lot of the we >> I guess >> because we didn't know it was in there. >> Council member Draich uh looking for That doesn't require council to dig through all the dispersants and make a determination as to what was administrative cost versus what is a required cost for salaries. I guess that's what I'm that's going to be my question is that the goal is you want more clarity behind what are the administrator approves a purchase under this policy up to $10,000 you know or whatever we set 20 that's approved after the claim is paid we're supposed to receive a report what those purchases >> there has been instances where I've had a question related to whether it was training or Certainly not just under this administrator, but previous administrator like what what is I'm just curious. What is that? Not that I'm against training or anything, but what what are we what are we getting for that $7,000, right? Or $4,500. Maybe it's a speaker to come in and talk to the staff and go through some Kaizen process, lean process or something like that. I don't know. But I think I understand what you're looking for and I know that it's all spelled out in the dispersements and stuff. It's just looking for those items that are under the administration's ability to do that wouldn't pop out on the page to to the city. Just some of that transparency that we're looking for. >> I need a little more clarification, a little bit more help on it because um so the these are not things that are over budget. These are things that are in the department's budgets, not things will come up, right? So is it >> so >> let's let's say you hire a coach for public works staff or something and a presentation on that $4,000 city staff or something. It's within the budget for training and it's in the thing. It's I think it's just a note here. The things that were done in the last uh dispersements that were approved and were initiated by city administration >> or department head >> or department head. Yeah. >> So maybe you don't want vendor, but you want what it actually was. >> Yeah, >> because it's going to be a lot of them. >> I mean, I was just thinking about >> Well, I mean, I I guess the other way I could look at it is I could go when I go through the dispersements and pull it from the consent agenda and go through all those items that I'm curious about. I've never done that, but >> I mean, if if it's easier one way than another, if council wants to d something certainly we can do that at our discretion. >> So just to clarify okay so this is outside of routine and it's not the dispersement it's the purchase. So it's the act of the the something that's not sort of a monthly or >> right >> quarterly expense point if it's something like a training or lobbyist or a uh maybe the staff has an offsite team building organization, something like that. That's not standard. >> Okay. So, I think that that would be relatively easy to implement. There's not like a Oh, there might be a flag. I probably have tools I don't even know about that I haven't >> probably do. And that's what I'm trying to the new software has something that you can flag it and make it easier. >> And most of the items like that would fall into certain GL codes, right? And so then it's just a matter of did you say it's monthly or um how often >> supposed to be after that? So >> after >> if it was done last council meeting, it would come to us next Tuesday or if it's next Tuesday, then it would come to us in the first meeting. So essentially for with along with all the payroll or payroll all the AP we'll run a separate report that we then like flag which ones were >> and to my understanding it just does not require any sort of resolution or motion or anything like that. It's for information purpose. Great. I mean again if a purchase is made under the policy where the city administrator said we want to bring in lunch for for this and I have up to $10,000 out for permission >> and it's in the budget then >> what's the minimum for that statute >> statute there is no minimum >> and it is it >> where you have this kind of authority we're granting excuse me >> well I asked because directors also have approval for contract purchasing >> so is this any staff directors can go up to 2500. And I'm guessing that happens a lot for who buys the computer paper. >> I would call that a regular purchase though like office supplies. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. that I >> regular purchases >> where I would see >> but it's a purchase >> under that under that >> we're granting the city administrator authority of being purchases up to some dollar amount on her own without coming back to the council right now certainly 10,000 >> no I get that I'm saying for purposes of this putting it on the next meeting afterwards that would include dctor is purchasing office supplies. >> I don't think so. >> Why? >> Because those are routine supplies. >> But the statute doesn't say routine versus not. >> It says that's a legal question. I don't think it's for everything. I think we're making we're making exceptions. When does when does the staff have to come back to the city council for approval to purchase? >> Okay. And we're saying you can purchase these things up to $10,000 coming back to us. that that's the things you have to put in. If we approve the budget, we say you can we don't have to come back for gasoline. It's in the budget. They're buying it. We see the dispersements. But these are like special special authority stuff. >> Yes. My goal is that whatever is discussed and we move forward with is easily understood and applied no matter who is here for staff. Because the people who carry this out 20 years from now might not be the same people, >> right? >> Is it more about the dollar amount that you're concerned about? >> Well, it's I guess what I'm concerned about is we're making purchases. We're just authorizing blanket. Purchase anything you want. Long as not more than 10,000 bucks. We don't need to have any say in it. We never we never specifically get told what it was. >> But I don't know that that's the case because it has to be in the budget. We we ordained a budget year prior. It's not like we I mean we said use this at your discretion and people should be able to use discretion >> budgetary items up to a certain amount. No, it's if it's beyond that then certainly it should be people people have the to go through that process. It's not stat >> which is 412 >> 41271. And currently we're essentially, if I heard that right, we're reporting it before we actually spend it. >> Is that what I'm doing? >> Right. With how it's >> We report it before we pay it. >> But if we get an invoice, we >> sure. >> So I think that there's >> So we're seeing all of them. which >> maybe sometimes we might be seeing some of them before we actually >> so does that question because within that statute it also says delegation authority has a delegation of authority certain claims certain items I don't know that what they're talking about and frequent administrative officials. >> Yeah. City councils opting to delegate their authority to review claims before the payment pursuant to the subdivision shall have internal accounting and administrative control procedures. So, make sure they have the ducks in a row to ensure Dispersement procedures shall include regular and frequent. Thanks for not defining that legislature. Review of the city administrative officials actions by the council. A list of all claims paid under those procedures established by the city council shall be present to the council forformational purposes. So it's not everything. It's a list of all claims paid under those procedures. So we get we still though can establish the procedure to include regular and frequent review of city administr city administrative officials. It's not city administrator, it's city administrative officials. >> So that could be a direct. >> Y >> what's that? You can make them as strict or as not strict as you want. >> Well, yeah. Well, and I think we just need to use some common sense, right? I mean, >> we have things in the budget that are I think, you know, as business moves. There's some things we'd like to know about that are maybe out of the normal. It doesn't need council approval. Some things do, but just making aware. I mean, I don't know what that line is, be honest. But like I said in the past, there's been some things I've seen in the not that I was against it. I was just curious as to what it was and I would make phone call and say, "So, so what what that was about curious, >> I just clarify, Sarah, this is referring to the the delegation of paying claim." So, this is regarding the dispersement, not the purchase. So, I was thinking that we were talking about like the the purchase, you know, going out and >> it's when it's paid, >> right? So, so we do that except you get it before it's actually paid, but we we don't technically utilize the the delegation. You see everything you guys approve a >> but you don't do it. You give us a list of dispersements. I don't see I don't see the list of dispersements meets this requirement. You haven't you paid those things? >> We haven't actually dispersed anything though. >> So So if I haven't dispersed something, I'm not reporting something that we haven't dispersed. >> We send you the list of checks that we would like to disperse the next day. >> Then you approve the claim. >> We approve the claim. Then they're supposed to submit a report of those at the next meeting. >> But why? You already approved the claim. >> Go ahead and pay it. >> Because the statute says they're Well, we can also use some of our judgment. >> I think you're giving the council a list of things we can pay and the council is approving that or you could pull something off the claim and say don't pay this and then claim approved. >> Well, I have a simple solution. I'll ask the state auditor for clarification. >> Okay. >> Okay. We'll make it simple. I don't want to fight about it because I think I think our view that they buy any damn thing they want the 10,000 bucks never tell us what it is except we get on a list of claims is ridiculous. >> I thinkation of our authority as a member of the city >> council member Dragus I think your excited claim that they can do anything they want is not correct. It's not valid because it's still within a budgetary response of what we have allowed them to do in the fall prior with the city taxes that we incur or revenue that we have. So I don't think there is I'm going to disagree with you on that. >> So, no no no department ever overspends a budget. >> That happens, but if it's within budget and we've already said that budget and I would expect that the staff that's going over budget would bring that to us and that we would be alerted on that fact. I would want to bet if we went back and looked at the last couple years where we had line items in the budget that were over spent, we would find that we never actually amount that over spent by that budget. >> I don't know that I remember seeing a lot of overages. >> I'm not lying. The authorities in the budget budget is a line item budget. We budgeted $10,000 for garbage cans and they spent 15. I don't ever remember Did you come back and get authority to go to 15? >> I do recall times at which items have come back in the purchase agreement saying that this is over the budgeted amount by x amount of thousand. >> It's already come back for approval. >> No, that they had to come back for approval because it was over the budget. >> I guess I just don't remember that. >> I say we're writing a cart bl never tell us except on a list of bills. have no idea what's being purchased or that it was must have been in the budgets in the list of bills and the statute specifically requires that they do that. >> Again, I'll disagree with your characterization of it being part. I don't think that's fair or appropriate. >> That's the way I'm sorry. >> So, in terms of next steps, how when we pay the lobbyist. Obviously, payment is based upon contract, whether it's twice over a three-month period, whether it's bi-weekly. Like, these payments vary depending upon the service or the item, right? When we send money out, is there a set process like every Friday at 7 p.m. all the program payments go out no matter what in what entity, what contract? >> No. the um outside of special um things like bond payments um all of our checks come through the AP process and cycle through now we have this our fabulous new software. Thank you again. Um so we have an electronic approval process. Um according to our policy um those get reported to you in the packet. The uh checks go out then the Wednesday following the city council meeting. So essentially what I'm hearing is a request that after the checks go out, there's a printed list of every check that went out when it is specifically a choice of a payment made by a director or administrator. Does that summarize that a list? Yes. check went out for this and this that Jason made for a training that director director Stoa that administrator Miller made for this is that that's what I'm hearing correct because if that's the case it's a printed list right you have certain codes and what it might any given Wednesday might be a onepage thing >> sure but but again I would I My response would be I don't think that and again I'm skimming a statute here and haven't had a chance to talk with Sarah but I don't think we actually utilize the delegation that is listed in this statute. So we don't we don't mail out checks. Nicole doesn't we don't approve checks internally that then we mail that then we need to report to you. We don't do that >> because even only disperse after you've already seen it. >> Oh, >> so if we if we >> probably actually the bonds would be the only one of the few recommend or uh requirements for this because >> that is something it just doesn't go in the AP packet. I pay it when it's due. It's all in an ordinance or resolution, whatever it is, but we adopt when when those are approved. Um but that is something that is delegated that then right >> because in the in the example that keeps coming up about specific contract for services it wasn't done at by administrator only discretion it came to us for approval before payment went out therefore this doesn't necessarily apply certainly did yes maybe not the purchase but then again that's so that I think is a whole other dis discussion is that what is that are we requiring are you requinging us to come to council for a different level purchase or are we authorized as directors or administrator to >> yes >> determine how to spend our budget. That that helps and council member J to your point I fully agree on the import of follow we all want to follow statutes this clarifies why I think we're maybe having a not disagreeing per se but I wasn't fully understanding some of what you mentioned but now I do I I think per council would this be something to help clarify because in these instances is we still are approving it and it's not being done solely at discretion. It's not being done through only a delegation of authority as in subdivision 8. Would this be something we can clarify? Because I it's not a state auditor thing. This is legal counsel and I I want to make sure that yes, we are following statute and if we need to we need to right. If we need to, we we shall. But I with that I'm very curious on >> So is that the next step? No, that subdivision 8 appears to be when the purchase and payment is done without council ever approving that payment shall go out because in the example that's being used, we pay we agreed to pay and send money out before the money went out. So I don't think it necessarily applies. >> This subdivision 8 appears to be when we allow the administrator not the authority of the contract but the ability to pay without ever asking for our permission to disperse. >> I agree with that. >> So in this case we're authorizing them to purchase but not >> to contract. >> Well we'll get the contracts in a minute. purchase >> underneath the guidance values that were in the polic. >> So they can purchase up to $10,000 and too bad. We don't get to know what it's for. It just gets purchased. >> I don't know that I want to know everything under $10,000. There's so much that goes on. Uh I think That's beyond the scope of what we're looking at. We're looking at there's a lot of things under $10,000. >> Also, all of our financial information, all of our invoices uh are public data and council and the public are both uh welcome to request that information at any time. >> That's what council wants to do. I'm just one member. So the next thing is, you know, we look at approval authority under this purchasing policy up on the front page. Um, I want to make it to me it seems clear that only the city council can authorize contracts and you cannot delegate that authority. And so city staff not authorized to sign contracts that bind the city at all. And that's again in the League of Minnesota Cities. >> That's under the approval authority. You're discussing this >> under under Yeah. If you It says city council approval is required. It should say for any contracts because the city council is the only one who can authorize contracts. Staff can't sign a contract that binds the city. >> Right. So what's the difference between a contract and an agreement? Because I see agreements that are standard purchasing terms and then I see long-term contractual conditions under city council approval required. >> Okay. >> Basically a contract is a formal agreement. So if you're buying something >> um >> you know the city has some obligations I would say that contract usually call Right. >> Yeah. >> But it's still contract. >> Yeah. But you're still agreeing all these things. services. So, I mean, >> yeah, if you're buying a couple ladders or something, >> right? >> You know, that's fine. >> I agree with that. >> Any obligation beyond just a purchase, >> then it's a contract. >> So, does that approval authority ring to what you're discussing. Council member J. >> No, >> does not. >> Sometimes a contract is in the long term. What is a contract for? >> So, you just want to strike uh long term. >> Yeah. I mean, I think this is pretty much what I just described to you. >> What constitutes longterm? >> Such a binding long-term obligation. >> Well, in in my life with two kids, long term is a week. like a week can be a very long time depending upon their behavior. So what constitutes long term? >> Well, I think you just scratch that. >> We we we've talked about terms that mean one thing to a different person, right? >> So long term if it's not a a definition of three months, six months, a year, longer, then I don't I don't think it's an appropriate term to be used because it it can be perceived different by different people. Yeah. Either we say a specific length or we just don't use that word. And it >> it's like using the word all in the country. It really doesn't it doesn't need to be in there. >> Yeah. And this definition was added with um keeping in mind that we did um combine the professional services into the um purchasing just one purchasing guidelines going according to amount. >> Sure. >> And so um I had spoke to try and come up with yeah what is the difference a contract agreement? So were you just changing that Clarissa there? Was that you? >> Yeah, I that was me. >> You can take the longterm out of the city. >> Thank you. >> Is that >> it's also upove >> Sorry. Oh, here. >> So the So once a contract is signed, administrative staff approval can be for agreements that are limited to standard. Do not alter contractual conditions. So maintaining a contract as long as you're not altering it can still be step. Are there contracts where you it still requires just administrative approval to say, "Yep, we're still in this contract." Like because to me when would there it'd always be yes we are looking for something to be changed therefore it would go back to council it will always come back to council >> only council can authorize contracts in the statute the contract has authorized >> I think for me the way that reads is I think that speaks to what what I think you're indicating Is there a difference here Sarah between I see execution of the contract is this the last stage versus agreeing to and doing the preliminary work with a contract, Right. It we're not necessarily talking about RFPs, but Yep. We're I I I administrator Holtz am agreeing to have you, Consultant Johnson, come out for training next Thursday. I'm agreeing to this, but execution of it requires council approval. Is that fair? Like, I still am agreeing to it, but I haven't yet bound the city to it. Or would that be an agreement? That's not contractual conditions. >> I mean, if you're not like >> it doesn't have that stuff. It's an agreement. I'm trying to come up with what's difference between a contract and an agreement. >> Yeah, >> because I could see going out for service and having someone come for a training when it's already within the budget and there's no legal risk, that's administrative approval. I guess the question I would have is if they were to take us to court and claim we had a contract, would it stand or not? >> Well, it would depend on who authoriz authorizing all by city >> staff, not by council. So the city staff said, "Well, this isn't a contract. I'm going to sign it. We don't need council authorization." We went to court and judge came back and said, "No, that was a contract legal requirements for a contract." >> Well, it would really be about the city. There's a case where I think it was a consultant that was out in the field or whatnot. And then they hit the city with the bill. >> I think the other thing I think that when we have these authorizations to do these purch I don't think they should include professional services. I think we're hiring professional service. That's something the city council should architect, engineers, attorneys, you name it. That should be something the city council. >> Can we go to the specificity on where that touches base? >> And is that all contracts or contracts certain dollar amount? >> I just say professional contracts. All professional contracts. We're hiring a professional service. That should be something. >> Do we have a definition of what professional service is? >> Well, if you go down to the professional, >> well, we changed it to RFP, but um it has I think the definition, >> but it was remember where it is. >> It's right there. >> So, in the top, but um I have some so I have some real life examples of professional services. So, I think if we have a definition, if the council wishes to have these separate, then we have to come up with a better definition. Um because I'll give you some examples. >> Um we hired an appraiser for the old fire station. >> That's probably a professional service. So, is that something that we should have you're saying you want us to come to you for? >> It's all these things are budgeted just like >> um you know Jason had his budget just coming up with a lump sum for this project including he didn't list them all out >> so he hired an appraiser he hired a surveyor professional am I and we were trying to figure out those are professional services so should that come to council our fire department um looking for a new psychologist. That's professional service. >> Um expect something like that >> just for doing the psyche balance. >> Oh, >> for the department I think I think. >> Yeah. So that's what we were thinking about. That's why we lumped it into dollar amount and having >> I think we leave it the way we had architects, accountants, engineers, lawyers. I wouldn't train but technical scientific services. I take the training but I think the rest of those are professional service we want to know. >> Can I ask why? Why? Because I care about the money. I care about the thresholds of the monetary value. That's where I place the risk as to what do I as an elected official need to focus on. Obviously larger the dollar amounts I want to know more and more on a scale. But I also have made we have made sure as a council to hire professionals who are and create an internal bureaucracy with layers and protections. We have software because again I see this from a risk standpoint not necessarily from wanting to know every single thing that they're doing. So I'm just curious why we're hiring professional service depending what that service is. I think we need to know an attorney. Why are we hiring? >> But we do know this policy they to hire an attorney without our permission. We have no knowledge why they were hiring them, what they're going to do. >> We made a budget, but the budget's very broad line item. Special services, $20,000. >> So, above and beyond the example with the lobbyist, is there an example where it's where this occurred? >> I don't know because it was never reported to us. >> Well, I'll give a good example of this. So, um obviously we have our our city attorney and we have attorney, but we did um use twice since I've been here different attorneys for different topics of area of expertise um for $1,000 um maybe under $2,000 for um help with compensation issue and then also um employment investigation. So those didn't go to the council that things that came up in operations. So if you want those all of that to come to council >> that would need to be outlined. >> So why won't those come to the council? >> It was not. So when I we're looking at this it's like um our city attorney just the big contract not if we need some additional help for an operational matter that came up. professional service by women that come current policy does not allow the staff to hire professional services. Current policy allows you to hire very specific professional service are not included in that. >> So that's why I think we need to have this discussion because I have a a little bit longer list of what would maybe be professional services that we are utilizing um using for operations. So I mean that's why we have to have a longer that was just some of them. Um I think one thing too like employment matter if there's a happen right away paid administrative leave and we're paying them to not be here and we have to get an investig my whole is that there has to be a level of we all live in a in a world where we make judgment calls on a regular basis or we need to based on the timeline or that's within our professional manner what we do I don't want to I would like to stay away from It just makes operational things slow down more than maybe that's a dollar amount. Maybe that's the type of service associated with a dollar amount. But in the case of hiring an investigator that falls under the umbrella of our attorney services, I think that would fall underneath that. I don't I don't I don't have the answer that side of the room. Yeah, I mean I just I just have so many questions on like that's why I was trying to find professional service like if let's say a sink is leaking. Are you the one that's hiring a professional service to come out and fix that or do you have to wait under this statute to come to us say yep you can have a professional plumber come out fix this thing? >> Depends if chief is available. So that's where I feel like some of this common sense in place of like if it's if we budgeted for it, >> we should I think trust the staff to make the correct decision in the time to do it instead of coming back to us approving it. It just it creates a lot of red tape in my opinion to do dayto-day things that are not that don't need our attention necessarily. That's why I think attaching a dollar amount to it might help. I don't know. I don't know the exact answer here. It's just my opinion. I think it creates a lot of red tape and takes some of the common sense out of it. >> Personally, our budget is such a broad document. We see professional services. >> Yeah. >> Professionally budget $10,000. I'm going to spend the whole $10,000 have psychologist come in and analyze why the city is so screwed up. It's like it's a lobbying project. We never discuss hiring lobbyist at the city council level and so where do we provide direction or spending money like that you know I don't want to be restrictive you want to be have a lot of flexibility but I think there's some services that if you say well if it's in the budget well the budget is such a broad document you pretty much do anything you want >> right >> that's that's where comes in and I think there's some decisions that the council should have some say If we're spending money on on something professional should go and examine buying Cadillacs for all of our employees. Well, I have 10,000 in the budget. I'm hiring a professional labor person say would that be a good reward system. What's wrong with that? That's kind of the point is the budget is such a broad document that you can pretty much justify anything if you're under $10,000. >> Isn't there a getting back to the expectations of professionals in our industry to do have good judgment and certainly a couple things you brought up. I was I would never expect to happen. And in speaking to the the lobby specifically, I was asking because we had bills that we were trying to push basically with the legislator. I I was on board getting it. So that's that's my bad. If it didn't come to council, >> you're not the city council. >> I know I'm not. I said that's why that's my bad. >> I'll take ownership >> and it's not authorized under our current policy. >> Okay. >> So we have two things there. That's kind of what my r is is, you know, we expand the policy. Now what are we going to what are we going to spend it for going forward? How do we how do we how do as a policy making board determine the policies that we hire professional for some particular reason. >> Is there a specific category that you think should be carved out because I don't want to see all professional things coming our way? I think it is a waste of my time. >> So, is there a specific like one specific type? >> I think the immediiacy like something just needs to get done. We don't have time. We don't have the wait for council that should be able to go forward. >> Is there a way that you've seen that written before? >> No, I didn't. And I think we need to be uh we would need something a little bit clear because um you know staff will take the time creating the council materials and putting it on a date. So I don't know that just immediiacy should be the >> I mean >> um I have some other examples too. Um well maintenance I mean okay immediiacy probably comes into play there. Um but then things that probably are not immediate. Um we hired WSB to create our snowfl routes professional service probably. >> Yeah. >> But we just we've done that over years, right? Um locating. So I was asking staff to try and understand what the current practice has been um in different departments figure out professional service versus good, you know, the different. So immediiacy doesn't seem like an easy thing to define whether it needs to go to council or not. >> So I just I mean if you reviewed this um staff's recommendation was that the professional services um to come to council would have a threshold of 175,000. And so in our mind we think of like the big professional your engineer, your city attorney. Um, >> but that's not the governance given in the table with threshold amounts. Correct. >> That was in there. I think it's the last item. It's the >> right we kind of segmented out in the >> we were having this go along with contracting law >> too where the RFP is not required for professional services but the 175,000 or greater we put in professional services and that it would go to council. That was a suggestion by us. scroll said professional services in that table just said professional services when you sent out >> there was 175 just said professional the document we were sent >> the one that's in the packet. >> So yeah, we look at >> the Yeah, the packet's not the red line. >> I'm so sorry. >> You should have the red line version. Um >> that's that's what Y >> I'm sorry I didn't lost in the conversion. There's a page break >> just a page that goes any >> it could be the issue we have um if we don't put the PDF in the teams and convert it to PDF from >> I guess if we limit $10,000 with the understanding we don't give up the right to question why was that why was that made >> well I don't think you ever give up the right question why. >> You can always ask why. >> Decision already made by the time we >> and you have a problem if it's under $10,000 and it's within budget. >> Yeah. Depending on what it is. >> You don't think somebody can make that professional judgement? >> Depending on what it is. I mean there are things that would be my mind not appropriate. >> We can just hold accountable. >> Yeah. be able to call either way, but I think we hire professionals that are directors of their sections be able to make those call. I mean, there's things that Clarissa, you know, sorry, man, I just know too much about what you do. So, um, but I mean, I don't Clarissa or Jason certainly don't have the depth of their experience and their How could I ask why? Sure. Just because I'm curious. I want to know why. Maybe I agree, maybe I disagree. But I think at some level we have to we have to rely on our staff to make some of those professional >> and we don't go over the budget. >> If we have 10,000 for professional services >> and they spend more than 10, that's a problem. >> If we get over the budget, there's questions for sure. >> And there are um we didn't put it in this version, but I did see some cities where they spelled out in their purchasing policy that it was department budget. So even if you went over your line item budget, as long as you go over your total budget, >> I I'd prefer not to have that. I would >> the professional service line is a that is a budget line item that's frustrated me. Um, >> oh, contract services in the >> that's been a frustrating one I feel like for me. Um, and so I do I agree that if we pass the budget, that line item amount is there. I want to trust our directors, you know, to to do that. So, I I think I'd rather look on the other end of when we're doing actually having those questions beforehand of specifically why is this budget line this much they can say hey for the next year we have these items planned out and then of course like if emergency stuff comes up and we end up having to go over the budget that's where I I I don't want it to just come out of a different budget line item necessarily for a non-emergent situation I do think that needs to be brought to council >> I don't think that's been our past practice at all >> hasn't been past practice and I haven't seen that in any of the cities that I've worked in. >> Yeah. Well, we didn't address this. >> We didn't specifically address this in our policy at all, but current practice has been um if if the if you went over a line item um as long as you're not over in your total budget that wasn't it didn't go to council. So, what I'm hearing is that's not okay. That's what been the current practice. >> Well, I think I think there should be some reasoning as to why >> you want to spend without council, but you don't want to live within your line for that budget. So, say you have the best of all worlds. I'll spend up to $10,000 a 100 times long over the budget. I'll buy whatever I want as over the total budget. Even exceed the line item that was approved. It's just such an open open record that there's very little control on it. I mean, you say, "Well, I have a vacancy in my office and so I'm not going to spend 20,000 bucks for labor. So, I'll go to the professional services budget by 20,000 just by approving contracts greater than 10,000." It just it just has be a check and balance on that. The budget comes in, the department is proposes the budget for that line item. That doesn't mean we can't increase it. If you get up to getting close and we're four months through the year, we have to increase that line item because things have come up we couldn't reasonably foreseen and we do need enough money to get to the end of the year for professional services. We can approve an increase that line item. >> No, I agree with that. I just I don't know how to handle that immediiacy situation, >> the plumber situation. >> I I don't know how we handle that. you know, if it's over budget, I don't want them waiting to two weeks to fix a toilet. >> And I also don't want them spending 10,000 just because they need their budget for bringing you somehow. I spent 20 years in city government never ran against that problem where I had to decide to spend money within two days. That's planning in advance. If your budget gets low and you're worried about it, come in and have that line item increased. Ask in case we run into this situation. I think that's fair. >> The asterisk with the line item is there will always be situations when creating the line item we were off. >> Yeah. >> And that is entirely fair because like things come up, you know, >> that it's entirely fair. So, I I don't I don't have an inherent automatic discuss when something goes over a specific line item when they're still within their overall budget. With that said, yeah, that is a good conversation to have. Hey, what happened? Why is it over? It's it's just having a conversation. It's not about accountability or being upset. No, it's what happened. Sweet. >> Now we know for the future. And >> sometimes when you're doing that, what is being sacrificed because of that movement of dollars. What are we not going to do now? >> Yep. >> I think that's fair. And the and then to that end because you mentioned this earlier like when we do our budget then every two years. Yeah. Let's look back at all the contracts because staff are taking the time to say here's what we think our professional services will be for the next two years. Well, it's because of the last two years worth of professional contracts. So that's on us to be like Oh, we did have all these contracts that add up because they were necessary, but yeah, we don't know about them. And I don't I don't have a business need to know about the contract to fix the toilet. I do not. They'll sign a contract to fix. >> You sign a contract to have contractors who do maintenance for the building. ongoing contracts over $10,000. >> And if it's an immediate urgence issue and there's a clog and the person who's on the ongoing basis in here, I fully expect staff will have to say we need someone who can come here right now. I don't see that you call someone air condition. That's a purchase purchase. It's like going to Home Depot and buying lumber. You buy a lumber, you don't sign a contract. >> Correct. >> But a plumber falls on >> professional services. >> That's That's what I was getting. Not necessarily the contract falls on professional services. >> Really? >> No. >> Defin, professional services. Okay. I just >> and not over budget. >> Just not over budget. >> Okay. >> I just don't want to have it so so blunt that there's no accountability either. >> I think it's a good point you made too of I think it is part of their job to be >> mindful of the budget and if they see that you know they're at 18 out of the 20,000 that was allocated and it's quarter one and you know there was unexpected reasons that got us to 18,000. I think that director needs to have some foresight to say, "Hey, this may be a concern," like you mentioned, and say, "Hey, we may need to pull this amount from the budget and move it from the department budget, move it over to professional services and so there is some transparency so we know what we're we're trading for." >> Or maybe that we have to move some money into the budget because some unexpected things. I'm not I just want to be informed. >> Yeah, I think that's fair. I'm fine with that. That's reasonable. >> Can we do a little research? How hard would it be to look? I'm just curious for last year's budget. How many times anyone maybe went over a line item but not their total budget? And because this will be a different, you know, a change in practice for staff. So, I just want to understand, you know, how it will affect them, but also Do you want them to what's the expectation coming to council for the information? Um the regular item Friday update consent what? >> Well, I I would say you and this is kind of been my standing something like that you can put in the consent >> agenda because it explains it. If a council member has a question about consent agenda, don't just pull it at the council meeting. Call the person in the consent agenda item and ask them the question because you might get the answer that you're looking for and not need to pull it into the regular meeting. >> And sometimes you can have that conversation with the director or the person and say, "Look, I'm still going to pull it and here's the reason why because I want to let the public know why why we needed to do this." Most times that doesn't happen, but it's a good for council to remember if you're going to pull something from consent, let them know so not surprise the council. So, so just a memo format that can go to consent um just saying what the budget was and kind of an explanation on why they're going to go over. >> Yeah. And what the res what the resolution is. We're gonna pull it from here because we don't expect to do Twitterly dink uh giveaways at whatever. So, we're not going to use that. >> We need to increase the line professional services from 20,000 to 30,000 because we spent this money already for the city and we anticipate we're askers. So, I'm gonna >> So, can I ask a process question, please? Um, so typically we we'd do something like this within a a budget amendment. We haven't really done them that much around here because we haven't had significant. So, we would do something like this if it's going to be significant. >> Um, we do work within department budgets >> there. The understanding is our budgets are >> planned as best we can. um we base them on past years. We base them on our knowledge of individual items that we're going to be purchasing. Um and so is there a dollar amount or you know if I if I'm I don't I don't want to be doing 20 budget amendments a year. Um, so is there a threshold of some kind that we're expecting that this that this would be use utilities if I mean pick any line item. We're gonna pencil it in based on what we know, but if we're inflation hits some awful number next year and we're, you know, kind of running out of money, >> is that a contract for professional service? >> What you're bringing up? >> No, I'm asking, are we talking about all of the line item budgets or just professional services? >> The the items that get contracted under That's not a regular reoccurring cost. >> I see where you're going though because I mean yeah like my my opinion would be yes if it goes over like I'm sorry if it means we have to do more budget amendments. I I just I think that is something we need to do if we go over budget >> but if it goes >> on a line item >> I think so. I I don't know. I just >> I was trying to see if you meant like >> Yeah. instead of significant >> like a percent 1% >> but I don't want to go with a percentage because if we have a a million dollar line item versus a $10 line item like >> so I just >> I just think that if we were to get it on the consent agenda we're going to increase by $10,000 for in the city's budget We don't need a budget amendment for every one of them. I think we did a budget amendment halfway through the year and said these are the things that were sent through the through the um over the course of the last six months we made several adjustments through the budget was approved and so here's the budget amendment that incorporates all of those. I don't want you to do a budget amendment every time we buy another you know another box of staples because it went over your office supply. That would be ridiculous. I would be I would be okay if we if we did the budget amendment at the at the last quarter of the year to bring it to where we expect we're going to end because you already told us you know as we're going along that we had to amend the budget in the finance director's office for this reason and we it's been on the consent agend had to spend more for software because we found a glitch that I remember that. Okay. And that's why I know that the line item for software is 5,000 more than was the budget. And we'll get to a point that makes sense. You know, we can do one budget amendment, incorporate all of those in our pushing a wheelbarrow up the hill. We already know about it. Well, I think to your underlying question, you're asking, do we want to know in that in that process >> when a line item goes over by a dollar? I don't >> a dollar. >> Well, but to that point, we need to be objective and clear. >> And I I was on I was just listening to it and I thought it was every line item. So, I'll tell you right now for the uh dues and subscriptions which are under mayor and council, it went over budget by a little bit because the calculations were off based on um you know the expected amount. It's I don't a couple hundred bucks or whatever. So, um which you probably would have saw um in your quarterly financials because it said likeundred and 5% of the budget for that line item. >> So everything you want us to bring back to consent explain >> agreed. What is it? >> 5000. >> So I mean my comment before wasn't right. So I appreciate the honesty. >> What I guess what I'm trying to say here is I do think if we go over a budget line item and we are going to pull from that department budget. What we just talked about is a great procedure. It goes on the consent agenda. We're pulling it from we need 10 we need $5,000 more for professional services and we're going to pull that from X Y and Z lines within our department. I think that's a perfect way to go about that. I don't think that needs a budget amendment. Where I guess I'd want to see a budget amendment is we go over by a dollar is if it's the department budget goes over. Can you describe right now? when we do budget amendments, Clarissa, >> they've been pretty rare um because we haven't I mean, we just haven't really come up with anything like a consistent process and there's I don't know that we even have like rules around them. Um and we just don't do that many things that are sort of outside the realm. So I was trying to nudge people into doing them with different things that they were bring to council and then again we just haven't gotten into a good good process. So >> So do we do a budget amendment for our city celebration last year and this year we'll do one? Is that something that you do? >> I don't remember if we did one last year. I think I I think we talked about it. I don't remember if that was part of the formal motion, >> but the council approved it and therefore it's sort of sort of an effectual budget amendment >> because if we go over a department's budget and we have to pull from a different department, I mean that's now we're talking >> we don't we don't pull from a different department. >> Where would we get that money? We go over budget in the department's budget. Where does that money come from? >> It's Not typically because we've been our revenues typically will be higher than what we've planned I believe because we've had a we've had a surplus so we haven't been using much fund balance our fund balance has been growing so we planned for use of fund balance this year >> I guess we have surplus revenues they would go into fund balance if they go to >> Sure that that does make sense >> that's what I meant >> yep agreed It could be in the current we have excess revenues cover it from our previous meetings line items that we authorized because unexpected Maybe we have to do something in their budget party. I mean somewhere near the end of the year we should do a budget amendment so we get to our budget looks better we adjust the budget based on actual experience and revenue some people adjusted right December 31 our last meeting to make a match exactly we don't have to >> or in April >> yeah know I mean right but I'm just saying if we get somewhere near the end of the year we could make our best guess on a budget amendment and balance it out. But I think as we go along, we'll see what these changes had to be in the line items because it's their best guess. They're doing September, you know, and they're going to go 15 months. So, I think 5%'s a reasonable piece in my mind, but I'm just >> I agree. I think a small percentage, whether it's 5%, 3%, I don't want to get too hung up on that, but I see what you're saying, too. We're over a dollar. We're out of money in that in that area. So, But I agree with you. I think a small percentage over is where we should start getting involved. But I also see >> I just think that we're out of money. >> If we get over we're going to be over on some lines that's going to cause it to be over. They're going to come through with a consent agenda item saying we need to allocate >> 15,000 more for gasoline because the price of gas went from 350 to five bucks a gallon. we allocated more and the source of the source of the allocation is from here and so by changing that allocation already chang if it's not available within within the department if it's available within the department then we wouldn't go I think >> okay I'm okay with a percentage I think doing a dollar amount $1 I mean we're dealing with a business really $9 million a year one dollar in one area doesn't mean that you're over in the whole total. So, I'm more in line with the percentage than I am. I >> I would want both. I like 5% and I think the item should be at least $1,000 because 5% on a $50 purchase. I don't care. I really don't. That's that is not that is not something that is worthy of a council. I do not >> department. >> We're talking about line items still. >> Oh, I thought we line it. >> That's what I meant by >> the department. Total department. >> Who had total department? >> Yeah. Who thought that? >> Total department. >> All right. Well, >> oh I thought we were line items. When does it need to come to consent? Is it just goes over a dollar? quarterly list when the line item is 5% over. >> I think that's a step in the right direction. Again, I I'm more in favor of we go over, we should talk about where we're going to take that money from. You know, $5,000 from the the city council budget is a pretty large percentage of it. >> And so I just but I I think moving in that direction is is a right step. So I'm fine with it. 5% line, 5%. >> Yeah. >> Well, 5% line. Bring it back on the consent agenda. If it's a 5% over a line item, >> if we go over by 5% for a department budget, that's when we have to talk about budget amendment. >> Yes. I I mean I would absolutely have concerns if a department because that's a large budget is 5% over but we would be seeing it on the quarterly list because they probably wouldn't be over until November. >> If they're over in March then we we have some issues >> and I'm not trying to muddy the waters but should it be a percentage or a dollar amount like 5% or $1,000? We're not running into a let's just use a round number a million dollars. Now we're over 5%. Now it's huge dollar >> on the line items or the or the >> the total budget. >> Yeah. >> And I again not trying to make this mess here but pretty big we have small budget big budget 5% or $10,000 >> total budget. >> Total budget not total. >> Yeah. >> Total department. department. >> That's when you want to do a budget amendment. >> Million dollar budget 1%. >> That's fair. >> And the other thing is >> city council budget we're talking about 15%. So >> because right I mean we do have oversight and that the issue the issue is the gray level of where is that level of oversight come versus where is it micromanaging. Like we all we're all on the same page. It's just where to draw that line. >> Yeah. >> And I think the fact that we get financial as we go through the year anyway. >> So if you get to that, you know, $10,000 $9,000 over in the budget, what's driving that, you know, ask question, finance director, department, whatever, get some information. I think this year >> Yeah. And and to the mayor's point, it's incumbent upon us as a council to also reach out weekly if need be just to find out what's going on as well. Like I talk with administrator Miller every week. She probably doesn't want to, but that's how I get some of my updates too. So it not everything needs to then be a council discussion, but the more information the better. So we'll draft something along this topic to add to our purchasing policy. It will be obviously we have a lot more to discuss here still but we get to a point where we can come back with policy. It'll have to be adopted but we also will have to train staff and it's a shift in half there'll be half the year is gone and this is a shift. So >> understood >> they might already be over on some line items. >> I would want I mean I really feel like I didn't have not having the red line copy in my packet was a disservice to me. Not really understanding what the changes were. Little disappointed in that to be honest. The other thing as you're looking at that changes you figure out when the easiest to do since we're getting stuck right along September, October, November, December. What would be the easiest time for you to do the amendment? And maybe if we approve it all along, the debacle is already amended. If we approve an increase in line item, I guess the only problem would be the overall we have to do a fun within the line items. We don't have to do any amendments. We're already approving them as we >> move on to item number four. >> One other thing. >> Yeah. >> Change. You know that was going to come up. >> Oh, >> I just have a hard time saying authorize allow $100 change authorized. We're not going to have any input. >> Generally, I would say that a lot of those programs of where we're going to get change orders where we have an agreement with an existing county or state on that goes through a scupless amount that by and large that work has to be constructed at that time and the professional engineers or people working on that job work through that change contractor. I I don't know that us at the city council saying no is going to benefit that process at all. >> This is all change. It could be on a city project just as change construction projects up to $100 authorized off the city council approval >> which also goes through we don't typically do our own field inspection on that. There are professional contract administration on our city. I guess saying we're going to allow someone to approve$100,00 $99,000 increase of spending and we're have no >> I would say if it goes over the contingency amount then I might have a little question about it but if we're within contingency >> the contingency of the budget >> for that for the project >> because you could have a change order that still keeps you within the contingency >> and it doesn't differentiate between that right now. So we have a change order that goes over the contingency. The city administrator could push that forward. It was $99,000. >> If it goes over the budget, I do not >> if it's within the Yeah. the whole budget. That's that's a question I always ask for all change orders. Is is this still within the budget? Yes. >> Contingency. >> What I hear is if it goes over the contingency, we're going to hear about >> Should we just specify that? >> Because I think that because if it's going over the contingency, there have already been other change orders that got you there. Maybe that's another thing that they could nickel and dime it all the way up to the contingency. >> It could be 5,000 here. It could be 20,000 here. >> Contractors would do that. Engineers. >> Well, well, in part and I'll bring it I kind of kick myself for this when this building was being done. Uh if you remember when the HVAC system that was specked out by our lovely uh architect at the time and they came back out didn't fit in the area. I should have called for um the engineers liability u drawing records and had their insurance paid for it. said we we even though I let the architect know that it's not happy with that errors and omissions it's called the engineer side so you can go back and say look you screwed this up we're not professionals that brought that together this is on you >> if it goes over contingency yes maybe I would expect that if there's something major retaining walls placed in the wrong spot because the surveying data in the plan wasn't correct and they got to move the whole thing and it's going to cost $60,000. Well, that's not the city's fault. Might be the engineer's fault. City shouldn't pay for that. >> You don't want to know about that as as elected official before money. You just want to Let the adviser approve that $60,000. I'll find out >> if it's within the contingency. I don't know. I mean, there's so many times that could happen. >> Are you are you more saying, hey, is this thing that we're going to spend $99,000 on necessary? >> Not necessarily that, hey, it's within the budget, but is this something that we could actually save $100,000 for the city? Because, you know, as an engineer, I actually think that you know maybe you would see as an engineer and say actually I don't think that this is a necessary change. >> No, it's to check the validity of the change not to not to say no to we have to pay for the project to continue is to check the validity question gets paid and we find out I mean it's a lot of money go discussion before. >> So you're saying noting >> how the public say we have change for $9,000. I think are you guys crazy? >> When the change orders come in, does engineering do a check first to make sure it's valid? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, of course. >> You do you do rates. You do our rates. You look at the equipment sitting idle. If it's working, there's equipment for there's >> Yeah. >> The changes in addition to the project. >> Well, that would come through us anyway. >> No, not because under $100,000. >> Yeah, it would because it's a change to the contract as far as a design method. You mean like adding a lane or adding a shoulder or adding a trail? >> What are you talking about? >> Well, let's just say we were going to add um make the sidewalk. >> It's a change contract. >> That's a change to the design. >> Where does it say change design will come to us? >> Contract change. >> So there's already checks for that purpose. >> I don't I don't That situation doesn't seem to ring a bell as to why that would happen. But >> but it's a contract change. We're signing a change order. So we're changing the contract. >> I guess you're changing. >> We're changing the amount. >> There's a definition under here >> under change order is what it is. >> I just I just struggle with we're going to not have any explanation to be able to raise any questions. going to get told we had a change for $99,000 and so the project's $99,000 bigger. We have no knowledge what it's about or why no and no input into discussion before it happens. I don't know that we've not noted anything prior on as long I don't know of a project that's come all city projects that we've had at least in my recollection have come in fairly by a larger amount under under and there's been change orders in there and there's been change order deductions as well for work that wasn't required to just a huge detriment to the project or the issue of before it's approved. >> Well, it is if council has to approve it, there can be delays on the contract because again, you're going to meet twice unless you want to do an emergency meeting >> discuss a change order. I will say when I talk to engineering about the change orders, um, sometimes it's a change order that is coming to me and the work is already done because something they ran into in the field and it had to be taken care of. >> Sometimes they're not already done. Um, I just signed one today that's not done yet. Um, so that's something I take into consideration. >> I share your concern if there's a change order that expands the scope of a project. beyond what we approved. I agree. I don't have if engineering is doing the reviews before it even gets to administrator. Is your concern that that wouldn't get caught to begin with that a change of scope of money and we're not having any >> correct? What input would we give if it's a change order that is necessary for project that we already approve? Like what what am I going to offer as a council member? I don't know until we see the change would like because I I fully agree that we have a role of governance and oversight and that there are specific things where we need to see them to provide feedback from feedback and visions from our residents from our businesses a change order on a project again I don't know what I would say >> because I don't is it from the engineering I just think we have I would like to know $9,000 I would like we're spending on before we spend it. >> But but again my question is is it because of the engineering side because we have that in the process the engineering team reviews it. So what is a council member are we doing then what the what is the process gain? I'm fine with there if there's a mount to say $50,000 per change orders, but I'm not fine if it delays the project and cause a cost increase. And so that that that's the immediiacy thing we talked about earlier. Like that is not okay for me. So where's that that balance? >> Never have. >> Never say never. >> Well, I'm just saying I never have >> but it's happened and my is there are checks and balances in the course of the contract administration construction projects and I guess my concern is more when it goes over the contingent amount and then you're getting the budgetary dollars that not have not been assigned for that project that's >> just one more you guys experience do you feel like the change order cumulative change order amount gets to a certain amount, do you start to have concerns or questions then at that point? So, it's not a single one, but you know, kind of like the creep of it over time. >> I mean, some of the examples I have just they're not city relevant. They're too big. I mean, for example, uh running into old bridge debris where there's supposed to be detention ponds that were laid there back when the road was originally built from old bridges because the contractor made a deal with the engineer at the time. And you still got to get rid of the concrete. That's $400,000 change order to get rid of the concrete. I mean, and in my my my history is going through changes. You get labor rates, you get equipment rates, you get the hours it's going to take. You add it all up. If that's what needs to get done. So, I mean, sometimes I I guess my my going back to my experience, I just feel like there's checks and balances in place so that it doesn't run up >> sometimes. We can do A, we can do B, we can do C. And I would say that councils by and large don't have the professional experience to weigh that in. And then those A, B, or C decisions are made by the engineers in the field at the time or their respective expert experts that are in the office that work with bridges or sewers or all those Sometimes right off the court on the heights project there's three different alternatives to deal with the storm water issue that's come up unexpectedly and they all work. They all have different pros and cons. They're asking us to pick which one as the owner we think we prefer. >> So deciding to come back to you, then I would expect that same thing to happen here. If A, B, or C are going to work, but we don't know what the city wants to do, that that would be a process and they would know that in advance time. That's not a dollar amount change. >> It's a dollar amount change. >> No, they're all going to work in the contract price. No, it's not the same cost. Each alternative has a different >> They're coming back to you saying what you want. What do you want to do? >> They're not coming back to us in this case. They could. >> It doesn't prohibit them from doing that. >> No, but it doesn't require them. >> And I'm okay with that. >> That's That's okay. >> I think we had $100,000. I don't know exactly what the alternative what it was or what involved. I wasn't involved in the decision. Oh, you're counsel. Would you authorize,000? Just because you're a council doesn't mean your level of experience gives you the ability to understand what the change is and what it should cost and if it's the right one or not. >> So the the thing that I see this as there will be a council sooner or later that will have zero engineers on it. >> Yeah. >> And that council will be deferring to that initial review that is done by the engineering team. And if there are multiple options for a change order, I do expect them to do what is in the best interest of the city. They they have a fiduciary duty per their contract to serve us and to do what is in the best interest of the city. So yeah, >> and by their professional license with the state board of engineers, that's their professional duty. >> They all just different ways to approach it and None are superior the other. They're all equal. Which one do you want? But they have different prices associated with the cheaper one may not be asthetically pleasing as more expensive. So we just in in the initial contract we just make that aware to them that hey if this situation arises and there are three equal options, you know, can you please just let us know because I do agree. I mean it is their with their professional license. They're going to do they're not going to do something nefarious. And if they do It's not going to last very long. >> Well, you get reported and they're gone. Right. So, that's what I'm saying. It's not going to last long. And so, but I agree if there's three great options and it comes down to what is the where's the city and the residents want. Yeah, it would be nice to be in that decision. But again, I I think it's a great point of like there's would I provide any would I provide better insight or better decision And the answer is no. >> And I don't know that my point really goes back to $100,000. Yeah.$100,000. >> But if it's within the contingency, I don't see the problem with that because it's required for the job and it was accounted for that there's probably going to be some unknowns in there. I mean, when you go drill a hole in the the pavement or the you know what's in that six inches. That doesn't necessarily mean you know what's 50 feet on either side of that. You have a pretty good guess, but you don't know how deep some better you run into. You better know how deep it goes. But I mean, it can vary, right? That's why you have a statement of estimated quantities and a unit price for each of those >> those pieces. Some of going to go over, some are going to go less. You got to write a change order to account for the You're buying more sand. >> I just have different spend,000 bucks without your knowledge. >> I just I'm against it. >> What I'm hearing is we do have an agreement when it goes above contingency >> that we want to know and that we want to know or approve. So it just put that in the language that if it go I mean >> it says if it goes over the scope of the overall project budget >> that already says in here. >> Yeah. >> So sorry there's fee is based on total cost of project $100. >> Were you asking were you trying to clarify if we should include >> a change or not? It currently >> overall project budget >> and are you you're asking do we need to include plus contingency? >> I don't think we do if the contingency is part of the budget. >> I want to clarify that with everyone the goal is the project is going to cost 85% of the budget or what's contingency 10%. sometimes depends of various things. >> I think it's better that again because I I understand wanting to make sure that we have a clear understanding of what we're spending residents money on. I think also we may end up spending more money and less effectively if government tries to to get involved with what the engineers are are meant to be doing. So I think we also need to get out of the way but have checks and balances and I think the financial side of it is going to have to be our best check and balance in the situation. I just never worked anywhere. That's just my experience. I think >> we >> you know it's a philosophical difference. We have approved change orders. I I recall for first couple years we got change orders and there's an explanation of to them and typically they're within budget and they say we were under on these items and we were over on these items whatever price for them at the end. talk about that >> you also you also we're using the standards back if it's over 125% of SEQ or under 75% you can go back and negotiate unit price change for that based on I mean the contractor says well I expected to only spend >> $50 for a gadget when I was using a hundred of them now I only got to use 50 of them and my cost goes up per unit price. So, I need a change for that. >> I don't I really don't want to see that. >> I respect your opinion. >> I get it. And I have to sit between the two of you. I just I just I want to give some credence to the professionalism of the people in the field that work on these but also not purely objective on that because it worked in this. So, >> so to summarize, we do get the change orders when they're over budget. >> Yeah. >> All right. >> As currently in the policy. Um, okay. So, just wanted to summarize. We're going to add to the policy the the policy um and also our current practice to train staff that if they're going over the line item budget that they need to include a memo for consent um explaining how they're going to reduce it in a different area if it's 5% >> grow um and then I I really didn't anything else. So, you're okay with all the other changes that we proposed here? Um, the one conversation you had was questioning the amount. Do you want to change it or should we just leave it alone? >> I mean, I personally think the first two ones are low. Inflation is real. I think the first one should be 5,000. The next one should be 5 to 15. But I don't have a scientific data driven reason for that other than it does. >> I looked up >> and then yeah, third one's 15. >> I looked up the inflation from 2018 to now and it's like 13,400 for 2018. So I would agree 5 to 15 is fair with inflation. We're using 2015 2018. >> That's a good data point. >> And then and then 15 to 175. I was just by my that was too small for 2026. >> So less than a department has 5,000 2500. >> Yeah. So five and 15 are the replacements. >> And then all the other changes we're okay with. >> Yeah. I'd like to see that red line again. Sorry about that. I have one more on the request for proposals. I just I think we should go language says we go for request for proposals when the contract is estimated to exceed $175,000. Why would we get request for proposals for services at a much lower thresh is in our best interest that we who offers the best service, you know, the most competitive price. And we have a lot of proposals that would be less than how many more than 175,000. Basically, we're saying, you know, we virtually not be required to go and advertise for proposals for anything. >> You're not by statute, but I'm saying good practice. >> I think our practice has been if it's we've sent out for that much less than 50ish Um part of our current purchasing policy did not specify that we had to advertise um the RFP. It talked about sending it where is the language um to a reasonable amount of people. >> Yeah. Is it three or two or >> it just >> well >> it wasn't required in the current >> so I I added um language we added um language in here that said it's not required. You may solicit proposals by advertising on the LMC's website, city website, or local newspaper. Oh, it said should be sent to a reasonable manageable number of vendors, which has been what we've been doing um except for um in the most recent one for the financial services for the 76 acres, we are actually um posting RFP and that came to you because it was such a scope. It's not something that we knew in talking with Jason um exactly what vendors we would send it to. He was getting calls from different people in different fields saying, "Oh, I do this. I do this." So that we didn't know who the right vendor is to send them to. So that's why we posted that one. >> We have policy that says we can pick a number 25,000 or more. We put out a request for proposals and then we post them in appropriate locations. If you're looking to hire um you know, an attorney, a legal firm for say a tax register making stuff up probably isn't the best site other sites. So you say, well, where's a good site to advertise these services? It's like, you know, if it's an engineering service, you want to put on engineering services, you could go to American Society of Civil Engineers, Minnesota Engineers Association. What you're trying to is solicit qualified firms to propose and give you in response to your scope of services give you a price for providing them by saying we're going to contact some vendors look what happened on our comp plan we got basically one proposal there's there's firms who do comp plans we didn't contact and I'm you know we just we could in that case a simple added big Minnesota states or Minnesota planning a Minnesota got us more proposals. >> That's a good note. But on the other hand, I mean, just devil's advocate. And then you have to come up with the reason why you're not picking them. So sometimes picking the people that you want to get proposals from is better than setting it out to the world. >> You don't have to pick the lowest price, but often times that's the argument you'll get into, right? Some council members want to go with the low number because they think that's the best use of the tax dollars. might not be because you won't get what you're looking for or you won't get the quality you're looking for. But you know that there are four or five people that can do a quality service. So you choose those five. Now if you're using certain funds, you have to put it out for right if you're using federal funds. >> These are local funds. I just think our process doesn't always make sure we get well qualified because we don't people and by having process that qualified firms, we could end up with better situation. >> Can we just add language when it you said the language says where it's posted? Can we just say including but not limited to these sites? >> Yeah. Or appropriate sites. >> Yes. >> Yes, I can add that >> because it because there's always Yes, I I agree. There could be places where it expands scope. Does that exist? Facebook marketplace. How about that? >> I mean that happens sometimes, right? >> Actually, the other thing Sometimes when you're looking, >> you also mentioned the amount at 175. Basically, it's saying >> I can see that being 100,000 completely honest. >> Yeah, >> I have no issue reducing it. >> Correct. There's very few things that we can, >> right? >> It just means that we have to >> practice Well, we have been following RFP process that was laid out in the purchasing policy. It didn't specify you had to advertise for it, >> right? >> So, we were following it. >> I didn't say you weren't. >> Yeah, >> you were following. I say the policy is bad. That's all. >> I didn't pretend that you had not followed it. >> How many How many ones have we done that are in that 100 175 range? Any we talking one >> probably just the comp plan um software >> I mean we did that >> software was like >> you it was what was laid out in the policy you had a scope you sent it to a reasonable manageable number of vendors >> we just that's what was laid out in here so it was so software I guess those are the two big ones. >> 100. >> Yeah, I'm I'm fine with that. >> I'm fine with that. >> Advertise location. Um, do you are you okay with that language for the RFP? We were trying to get to for not more frequent than every five years for long-term professional service contracts. It seems like that's kind of been the past practice for most, but we wanted to make sure that we weren't going out for RFP for a city attorney or city engineer every other year because of the >> Yeah, five years is good. We were saying not more frequent. >> That's the maximum state. >> It's not right. No, we're not like miserable. >> You're more miserable when you're working for us. >> Okay. So, we're all on the same page. We are considating the professional services with the goods contract, the amounts. >> Yes. Good. We good. >> This should be fairly easy. >> The art of the deal public art program. >> Yeah. Thank you. U Okay. So, part of the city wall art project as um we talked about council before was to incorporate a wall for displaying um public art. And so I was able to look at um there's not that many cities that do this, but Rapids and Golden Valley both had um programs. Um so I use their policy to come up with a draft policy for us here. Um, and so, um, I'm also working with Sarah on some language that we would have for, um, folks waiting, um, insurance requirements for their art pieces. But, um, so I just wanted to have you guys take a look at this and then if you are okay with it, I would try and um, turn it around the next council meeting to have approval. I've been in contact with the school um to see if we could kind of kick this off with um high school students if they have art pieces, 2D art pieces because Indiana Wall um that they would like to submit for display this summer and start with them and see how it goes. So with that, if you have any questions or any changes that you want to see to the the policy, >> do we have any other locations that would be more visible to public rather than upstairs where people would have to go upstairs? I guess it just >> seems a shame that I don't know, but there's a lot of, you know, they mostly come in here back. >> There is no other wall space. I mean, there's small spaces at the service counter here, which we were going to do. We repurpose that glass showcase right up front. >> Oh, we don't want to do that. No, I don't. I was just curious. >> What's on the walls when you enter the first set of doors before a second? What's on the walls? >> Yeah, the entrance. >> A bench wood. >> I get it. I'd like to have more, but I'd also like to have some pieces that are where people can see. Can we have them in the council chambers on the walls? >> Well, so that can be part of it. Also, what I plan on bringing back next week was the whole city art package which we had talked about doing the historical photos in the council chambers. And so that's what's planned for mayor, >> right? But also I think about this community art wall. Um and while I talking about um starting with the students, I did hear from one resident that is a local artist that wanted to provide some input on this um which was very helpful because the hanging mechanism we changed because of her input. But I think about the folks that are professional artists that might be applying to display their work. And I know we don't have a lot of traffic here, but perhaps it's less likely to be damaged or anything up on the second floor. >> Not and we don't again we don't have a lot of traffic down here, but maybe to some artists that would appeal to them to not be in a super hightra area. I don't know. >> And would it be a mix of of like art media? Would it be paintings along with pictures or >> Yep. Um for the professional artists, we will require them to name their own art and then they will be responsible for hanging it with our um program. >> And then is this like a rotating schedule where they're up for three months, six months? >> Yep. The idea would be quarterly. >> Okay. >> And so that's where we're going to start with the kids for the summer. >> Um >> and see what we get and then roll it out for after summer. How often are people renting this room? >> Yeah, we have some HOAs. >> I I just asked because of this right here. >> Members of the public are in here. You know, we're talking about historical stuff in the chambers, but people gather in here potentially more often than they go up to the second floor. So you're talking historical pictures? >> No. No. For art because council, right, is likely going to have historical stuff. >> I don't think that the the display thing will work here. I mean, unless we remove all those hooks. It is. >> I included a picture of it in the the packet, but they're vertical pieces that would accommodate multiple pieces where people be have to have to be able to reach >> to put them on there. >> Are you guys have like a standard size piece >> or is it just whatever size they want? >> It would be whatever size. Um because it would come framed, you would just have to attach it to this So the local artist told me that the it's called a Walker art system that is actually very easy for artists to display their work on. >> I have non artist so I have not used it myself. >> Yeah. I feel like I've seen these in schools sometimes. >> I think it's a great start. >> Y >> I think one thing that concerns me items through 12 basically that caused me some concern from >> under some of those are public message must not be offensive condescending you know determining that can be kind of tricky and do we have standards that would say what constitute that I agree. I just want to make sure that we have some basis for that we can defend for doing in case we have something comes in litigation over hanging some art because we have this discretion and we haven't. >> Yeah, there's a lot of case law. Government itself has the right to speech. I know the lawyers on that case. They uh >> Yeah, I just I just want to make sure we have some standards for them so we we don't we're not arbitrary and discriminatory. >> Yeah, I I appreciate you putting this together. It's logical. It flows and I think it's a good opportunity. I I have nothing to change for it, too. >> Are you okay with the location? That's the wall. Otherwise, um, if we could explore down here. I just don't know that it will work for the height. >> I'm fine. I was just trying to >> like I said, it's a great start and if it turns out to be great something else, I probably as well. >> Well, one thing we did talk to about with the school um and and we'll just see where it goes is is what kind of art do the kids create? Maybe they have more 3D stuff and so maybe we would want to incorporate um a display case for that type of art. We'll see where it goes. >> Yep. Spring they have a Dainci fest and there's really good stuff in there. >> But we'll start with this 2D for the students and the community as well and see what happens. >> Good. celebration discussion. >> I put this on here um because it's been a little bit since the council has um had dedicated time to talk about this event. Um and I do believe that the the best practices would be at a regular meeting for council to make a formal motion identifying the date. I believe we talked about that already, but I just want to confirm September 12th I think it was. but also to specify the budget and then the scope. And so I just want to give that opportunity for you all to discuss it right now. Um or just be, you know, be prepared to make a motion at the next meeting or whenever it seems appropriate to more formalize it. >> Yeah, I throw a dart out there. City Council has approved September 12 stage for ban power events to the Rotary. $30,000. Throw that out there. We have a guaranteed spot where the van go. >> We plan on closing the street like last year, >> too. again. >> So last year maybe do it in the field of >> Yeah. I don't want to field either. >> Well, I'm saying like outside of the fence line right there, but just an idea. >> Yeah. >> That could be the bounce. that. It's true. >> They'll let me do that again. >> That's also what I was going to ask. That was added in last year. Is that something that you want in the school? >> How big of a pain was it to get bounce houses? >> It was not. >> How much were they? >> Free. They were donated. >> Donated them. >> Oh, sponsored. Sponsored. >> Yeah. Is that sustainable? >> Yeah. >> And replic replicable. >> Yeah, for sure. I think there were I think it was I want to say it was $1,000 for the two and it was definitely not more than that. >> So I mean talk about budget adjustments right is just like >> I was going to point out council was one of the few departments that went over budget. >> I know we don't need to rent Yeah, we need four bodies, hand wash station. >> Yeah, my one and three bath >> all that fun stuff. Tents, chairs, tables. >> Could we coordinate with the sheriff's department to see if they want to do like a K9 show in the baseball field? They do that at the county fair a lot. They do it other places. >> They do it on August night out. >> Night out as well. And the dogs will be right and it'll be slightly cooler than national and maybe we discuss this later too. But how does it get broke out if we do 30,000 or food trucks? How do we 30,000? So if I'm in charge of food trucks, how do I know what my budget is to make sure that I'm not over >> dollar? So easiest I'll have to talk to you about it. So like 3500. So the stage is basically be 3 to 3500. Like that is pretty consistent from the vendors. The bands there is variance. It depends upon how the quality you want. You had a great band you suggest the other day. I'm not >> $7,000 for an event. I already checked. >> Um we're at 10. >> So that would have been double what we paid last year. 7,000 is double double what we >> I have sent out the budget from last year's event. Maybe I can send it out again so you can see it before the meeting so you can see all the little details. >> Take out the fireworks >> and take out the fly >> and and seeing what the ban costs were last year. I'm fine with we can discuss maybe like five to seven but I wouldn't want to pay more than seven there's many many vans in that range the food trucks just had minimums we hit all our minimums I know one or two of them had like a thousand minimum arrival fee basically but it was pretty minimal but I know on time like a longer runway get some premium. We probably wouldn't be able to get more than we had last year just given that now we're taking up some of the >> street just we want to budget for any flags decorations. >> Yeah. >> Well, I assume we're getting flags soon anyway, right? >> Yes, that would be I guess I would probably go over on a line item budget for adding those flags in this year. So, I'll have to follow the new process. Um I am working with Excel to get the approval. Um I have an appropriate contact but they are working on they've sent it over to their um appropriate staff and then I am working with a vendor um on the banner flags. >> Then we got to come up with is this something that this council and future council could disagree. Is this something we want to do on an annual basis so that we can appropriately budget, not go over on the city council budget uh in years to follow? And do we want to give it a because that's the hard thing, right? Is this because it's a 250? >> This goes 250. goes 100, >> but next year it's 251 >> because I I could argue that what we do in future years is we put national night out on steroids and have a ban and other stuff at national night out 250. Last year was the 100th, this year is the 250. You can make the argument. I don't know if it's right or wrong. I have no problem with doing this expenditure every year. It's whether it's a month after National Night Out. >> Yeah, I think it'd be I just think really cool for the city to have it have their own sort of city days once a year. >> Elmo days. >> Elmo days. Yeah, I was actually just about you to try out my Elmo days. >> Elmo's party. >> So last year >> Elmo 21,000. >> We can spend seven on a band >> because literally there's no there's the fireworks. No air shows for food trucks at the state. I contacted them to see if they haven't heard back yet, >> which isn't that far off from what you just said. to separate the night out from >> Yes. >> a city day type thing. We kept this year. >> So, are we doing decorations that are then kept in a public works building that you asked about it? So, we're talking about the street stuff, but are we doing things? What What would that look like? Matt asked about decorations. Well, I was more saying that from the 250th perspective, you know, if that's what we're really celebrating, >> I mean, I'm not opposed to it too if we were saying, hey, you know, we are going to maybe instead of the national dedic more funds, you know, then maybe something that could be worth it. >> I just I was more bringing it up because I know we discussed it kind of brought it up that cation of the American flag. If we don't do it, I'm fine with it. >> I think for decorations should dress up as >> what I thought I heard the council say last time was three different plagues to look at. won the United States flag banner, a seasonal greetings banner, and then a custom Lake Elmo banner that would fly or be up there the whole rest of the year. >> Thanksgiving through mid July holiday. I personally put things up before Thanksgiving, but we can discuss >> for the holiday flag. >> What else you need? >> Oh, I just wanted to give you an opportunity to discuss it so we're prepared. You're prepared to make it more formal and you are all in agreement on the scope and um >> a good framework. >> Good framework. We can talk about what we're going to do. I start our staff too. It's in here. Lead us with the chicken dance. >> No. >> No. >> And then think about what you want to call it. >> Elmo days. I will get the trademark myself and then I'll charge the city for it. see if that domain's available. >> You're searching. >> I know some people that do nefarious things. >> We're have a race for the URL. >> Look like it's available. >> All right. Is that enough for you, Nicole, for >> um Thanks for the great discussion. The meeting here at 9:30. Got it.