for you. >> I won't email you there. I will. >> Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I know. But I thought we would get an email from the website, right? 7:01. We'll uh call the Lake Elmo City Council meeting for Tuesday, September 2nd to order. Please stand with me for the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> All right. Item B on the agenda is approval of the agenda. I understand that some uh council member Hearn would like to pull something. >> Yeah, I'd like to pull item number nine uh to the regular agenda, please. Okay, we'll pull item number nine and make that regular agenda item number three. >> Sounds good. Thank you. >> All right. Anything else? Or I'll entertain a motion to uh approve the amended agenda. >> So moved. >> Support. Have a >> motion and a second to approve an amended agenda with the consent agenda number nine being moved to number three on the regular agenda. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. >> I. >> Agenda uh amended agenda is approved. Uh Julie, do we have any public comments or inquiries not pertaining to the agenda this evening? Okay. So item D is we have approval of the minutes from the 8/19 25 city council meetings. Unless somebody has something that's incorrect in there would like something changed. I'll entertain a motion on approval of the uh meeting minutes from 8/19. >> So moved. >> Support. >> Okay. Okay, we have a motion and a second for approval of the minutes from 8:19. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. >> I. >> I. >> All right, moving right along. We have the consent agenda which is approve payments and dispersements. Approve release of warranty security for public improvements at Northstar third edition. Approve well number two POS uh water treatment plant pay request. Approve well POS water treatment plant change order. Accept bids and award contract for the 2025 SEO project. accept quotes and award contract for the 2025 striping project. Number seven, approve water meter purchase. Number eight, approve public works shop floor resurfacing. 10, approve financial analyst and utility billing clerk job description. Number 11, approve financial analyst and utility billing clerk wage increase. If everybody's copetic with that, I'll entertain a motion on approval of the consent agenda. >> Move to approve consent agenda. >> Second. >> We have a motion and second to approve the consent agenda is read. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. >> I. I. >> Those opposed, same sign, hearing none. Consent agenda is approved. our regular agenda. Um, notably most people are here for item number two. However, we do have somebody that online that was told they'd be on at 7:10. So, we're going to go ahead with the public works operational assessment. As we turn this over to Mr. Kersh, are you going to present this? Can you can you hear me? Okay, >> we can. >> Yeah. >> And >> oh, just a second. Brian, >> hold on, Brian. Um, we were just wanted to introduce this um mayor and council. We've been working with Rob Telis since the beginning of the year about um on this public works operational assessment. And as you'll recall in May they did present to you the draft report and have taken um feedback from the council and incorporated that into the final report. And so um we spent a lot of hours meeting with them as a team going over um learning more about the department and going through their recommendations. And so we are excited to be here and we all thoroughly support the recommendations that have been presented. Um, and so you're right. Um, Brian from Rafelis is online to run us through a presentation, but then the rest of us are here to help answer any questions as well. >> Great. I think that's your cue. >> Thank you, Nicole. And can you see the pres my presentation on your end? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Fantastic. Excellent. Uh, unfortunately, you guys are on a tiny little two-inch box. I won't be able to see who who was speaking, but I'm happy to engage in conversation uh as we go along. Um as you know, we were there in in May. We we took some feedback. We're here. I'm going to focus more of the time on uh benchmarking today. Uh we will go over the major recommendations again uh as we go through, but again, we want to be cognizant of your time. So before we dive into some of the benchmarking, I do want to always caveat uh benchmarking in that it is a useful tool for providing some indication as to how uh organizations are are similar or different from other like organizations. Uh benchmarking is a poor tool for determining whether someone is a better organization uh than another. Uh it's not a ranking exercise. Um but there are things we can learn from it. And with that uh we'll go into uh the benchmarking exercise. Uh we're not going to read through all the numbers in the table here, but the primary source of data that we're using for this is the 2023 annual comp comprehensive financial reports data from uh the peer communities as well as Lake Elmo. Uh working with count with staff, we we identified about seven peers, North St. Paul, Hugo, Stillwater, New Brighton, Oakdale, Forest Lake, and Mountains View. Uh they're all roughly the same size as Lake Elmo, up to about twice the size of Lake Elmo in the in the case of Oakdale and in New Brighton. Um and we have some basic uh statistical data from them as well as everyone's reported FTEES as they've allocated them. Now for Lake Elmo rather than using the uh ACFR data we are using the time card data for 2023 uh as it was reported uh by them. And when we look at benchmarking data there are two major kind of takeaways we get from uh some from some of the analysis. One is that Lake Elmo's service needs differ from its peers. So we'll look at a few examples of how this uh is the case and also that lake is if anything more lightly staffed uh than its peers. Now does it mean that their service needs differ from its peers? Well, in one case it's the fact that the city's dealing with growth in a way that its peers simply are not. We look at the percent change in population between 2019 and 2023. Uh population of Lake Elmo grew by almost 22%. Hugos uh would grew by exactly half that and none of the other peers otherwise had s had any significant growth in that time period and just dealing with the process of bringing on new customers and new residents obviously entails its own workload that these other communities don't have that Lake Elmo does. Another indication that Lake Gwell service needs are different than its peers is that it's less dense community uh than its peers. If we look at population per miles of street, this might seem like an odd metric, but it tells us something about the density of the city. Um Lake Elmo has 139 residents per street mile. Um North St. Paul is almost exactly twice that. And on one hand, it has a a minor implication for workload in that public works crews are going to have a little more windshield time getting to their various sites throughout the town. Uh but it also is an indication that the city is having to maintain a greater number of assets per resident than its peers do. Um, just doing the math a little bit here. Uh, Lake Elmo's population per street mile corresponds to each resident having 38 feet of street that they have to maintain, whereas New Brighton would only have to maintain 16 feet per resident. You can see why that would uh might influence staffing needs. We see the same thing with uh population per mile of water pipe. Again, Lake Elmo is less dense than its uh peers significantly so in many cases. Um and in when we get to sewer pipes, we have kind of the exception that pro that proves the rule here. Lake Elmo's actually has greater the greatest number of residents per mile of sewer pipe. has more to do with the fact that the city is not universally sewarded. Um but o overall given that the density that we see in the city uh and the growth that we would that we have seen in the city, we would expect that everything else being equal, Lake Elmo would have greater staffing needs for public works services than its peers. But when we look at the data, we find that that's really not the case. We look at uh residents per public works FTE. We see that Lake Elmo based on their time card data is basically the highest uh technically second highest force lake beats them out by a hair. Uh in benchmarking terms this is a statistical tie to be honest. The next closest um is North St. Paul, which has about 10% heavier staffing than Lake Elmo, and the other peers have significantly less or significantly greater staffing rates than the city. We can look at this uh through a few other lenses as well. Miles of streets maintained per streets FTE. Lake Elmo maintains 15.2 2 miles of streets per streets FTE. Um the highest amongst the peers. Next highest was Still Water at 13.8. Uh everyone else was significant maintain significantly fewer miles uh per streets FTE. Again we see this with water pipe with miles of pipe maintained per water FTE. Uh Lake Elmo has the highest miles of pipe maintained per FTE. Oakdale comes close. Everyone else is significantly lower miles of pike per FTE. Finally, we see sewer sewer pipe miles of pike per sewer FTE. Uh the city comes in with the second greatest length of pipe maintained per FTE being beaten out by Forest Lake. In this in this case here, if we were to change our viewpoint to a national level and compare Lake Elmo's uh number of water accounts served per water FTE uh as surveyed by the American Waterworks Association as part of their benchmarking survey that they do, we see that um Lake Elmo's um number of accounts served per FTE is almost twice that of the AWWA 75th percentile. That means that 75% of surveyed respondents are more heavily staffed uh at that 75th percentile. And as you can see uh Lake Elmo is well beyond that and we see a repeat of that sort of uh pattern again when we look at sewer accounts per served per sewer FTE. I would I don't want to say discount but somewhat take into account the fact that most of the respondents to the AWA survey will be larger more complex uh utilities that would have higher staffing levels just by the very fact that they have more complex waste wastewater and water treatment facilities than the city does. So given uh those that benchmark information that informs the sort of situation we see with some of the general observations that we gleaned from reviewing data and then also speaking with all of the staff. Uh growth is really the number one drive workload driver within the department and we've seen growth in workload that has far outpaced the rate of population growth. Um, in many cases, we found a department that provides a high level of service. It's identified appropriate service level targets and has been able to meet those targets. However, continuing to meet those targets given current staffing levels is likely unsustainable. One of those things that has enabled them to meet those levels is the fact that much of the city's infrastructure is new. um and you're not dealing with the breaks and the failures that you would expect of an older system. Uh obviously this will change over time and how the city is able to maintain that infrastructure over time will will help influence how quickly that system ages as well. Um and so we want the city to be able to plan for this uh proactively. The department last added uh an operator position in 2019. This is significant uh one because operators are frankly the ones out in the field turning the wrenches uh exercising valves, flushing the system, doing the actual labor that needs to be done. Uh but just from 2019 to 2023, the department has had rapid growth in its major service areas. And we can characterize this with a 74% increase in sewer customers, about a 40% increase in miles of sewer pipe and water customers, a 55% increase in water pipe length, and a 23% increase in park acreage. So, not it's not just sewer pipes and water pipes that, you know, cause more work, but there are valves attached to them, hydrants attached to them that need to be winterized or flushed. Uh, other pertinances. >> Mr. Kersh, it sounds >> There we go. >> Yes, >> we cut out there for just a few seconds. >> Oh, I'm I'm I'm sorry. Uh, about how far back? >> You got through that page. >> Okay. All right. Um just to re just to kind of re-illustrate the rate of growth that's been happening. We can look at the sewer customer accounts per public works FTEES and you can see it's been rapid growth even as the department has grown from 2013 to 2023. Um the number of customer accounts per public works FTE has also grown substantially. So we're just going to go go over the the major recommendations uh contained in the report here today. Um one of the things we recommended is that you know many of the public works projects or work is seasonal or periodic. Um operators were not feeling that the communication to them was sufficiently project oriented. It was more task oriented. At the same time, there's an opportunity uh to help with resource planning in terms of, you know, when are we going to do hydrant flushing, when are we going to do valve exercising, making sure that different projects don't overlap and resources aren't overly taxed. Um so our recommendation is to create an annual work plan to articulate when significant work initiatives are scheduled or expected to take place. um post this in the workplace so that everyone's aware of it and also over time review this periodically because given the rates of growth the city has experienced what might take you know two weeks uh this year might take three weeks five years down the line so it'll it'll require certain revision uh as time goes on a few observations regarding the staffing levels um as I've I think made the point up to now workload have increased over the last six years, but operator staffing hasn't. Um, there's a lead operator role. It's not a supervisory position, but sort of is. Um, that position, their overseas or their span of control is at eight operators, and that's very high for that sort of kind of frontline uh supervisory type position. Uh currently operators are on a oneweek rotation when they're on call and when they're on call they perform rounds on the water and sewer system. Um given that they're eight operators and and a lead operator that means once every nine weeks or about once every two months they can be expected to be on call and doing those rounds. Some of them reported they're not so comfortable with the system because they don't just don't get to work with it that often. If you only did something once every uh two months, it might not be as as familiar to you as it as it could be. Uh that sort of in frequency makes it harder to train new operators, harder for existing operators to retain their knowledge and harder just to gain a feel for the system. Um on top of that, as the city adds POS treatment, that's only going to make the system more complicated to operate. So given the growth in workload and workload needs uh that we've seen a recommendation is that the city increase staffing by two FTEEs in 2025 and one in 2026. Um goal for 2025 should be to aim to add one operator and one lead operator. that second lead operator will really help with that reduce spa will really help reduce that span of control especially if if you add more operators uh to the existing compliment. Um this third bullet point that the second lead operator should be scheduled opposite during the uh the first during summer hours. This was based off of a a minor recommendation we had that the city for productivity purposes consider going to a four uh 10 schedule where you would have one crew working uh four days a week Monday through Thursday I'm sorry yeah four days a week 10 hours a day Monday through Thursday and the other crew Tuesday through Friday. Um, in addition to those two operate two FTEEs in 2025, we would recommend another op another another FTE be added in 2026. The director should use his discretion to identify which staff member would be most needed uh for that new FTE. It might be an operator. It might be something in more of a supervisory role. It just depends where the city is at uh next year and where his workload is at. And if we look a little bit about, you know, what this looks like in in bigger picture, we're talking about adding three new FTEEs here. These bars here rec uh represent Lake Elmo's population in 2023 and that are projected forward using uh population projections provided by the city. These are the high growth rate projections. That gray line going up diagonally across the top. Uh if we were to take the average staffing rate for public works workers in the peer communities that is um number of residents per public works FTE and said it's that's just the average and and uh extrapolate that to where Lake Elmo is based on its population or where it will be. uh you can see that the current staffing in 2023 and 2024 is greatly below significantly below that. Adding two uh uh FTEEs in 2025 accounts for that bump of the little blue line and then another one in 2026. So these three FTEEs are really kind of keeping pace with the growth that the city has been experiencing for the last few years um as opposed to greatly expanding the department uh out of the blue if you will. We also recommend that this uh department designate about half a dozen operators as utility specialists. These should be the more experienced operators and the intention for this is that on call and uh rotations and the rounds that are performed should only be conducted by the utility specialist. The intention here is that it will concentrate and amplify the experience and knowledge of the mechanical treatment components of the utility system. The you know some utilities uh there's a culture where people really want overtime and jump at this sort of uh opportunity. Other places we're starting to see um that's not the case where people are more reticent to be on call, more reticent to um take over to volunteer for overtime. So there may be some incentive required to entice operators to be utility specialists if if uh the department chooses to go forward with this path. Um the city also recently lost an administrative assistant who was about point4 FTE to public works. Uh there's significant need for administrative and clerical assistants within the department. Uh we recommend hiring an admin assistant to assist the with these tasks. Um ideally this person would have public works or utility experience. We don't want this person just to, you know, be completely clerical and focused on filing papers. We want someone who, you know, is is adaptable and can be computer literate, learn new software packages, uh, able to read and navigate maps and GIS. um to help promote their success or make it more likely that they can succeed. Um we'd recommend creating a binder of SOPs for that person to use to help expand their role. Um and we would recommend starting this position at 0.5 FTE within the department, but perhaps adjust that uh in the future as um as needs or capacity may change. Another observation was that the department was using some uh non-certified operators to do some auto repair and maintenance. Uh we recommend that that not be the case, that only trained individuals uh be conducting auto repair. Um the recommendation is to either hire a certified mechanic or to sign a service contract with a local vendor. Um this isn't a core function of the public works department. It's okay if that function does exist in there. That person should uh be certified and properly trained uh for issues of safety and liability. In reviewing the city's parks master plan, uh there was a call for uh a parks director. However, the master plan did not provide guidance on the role or scope of that position. Um it's very rare to have a parks director without a separate parks department or staff. So our recommendation here is that stakeholders should collaborate as to the proper role, title, timing, scope as to what this uh parks leadership position uh should involve um as well as where it fits in within within the structure of the city's organization. Um the city does use Beehive as an asset management system. They're doing very well with that I think. Um it however lacks a parks module. So that does create some workflow issues. Um it's however not used as a work order system currently or has not been and operators pretty much only use it as a GIS uh type mapping tool for locates out in the field. Our recommendation is to implement Beehive as a full computerized maintenance management system for public works. So, uh that means to obtain the parks module and issue tablets uh to operators in the field, develop beehive's capabilities to issue and track work orders. this if you start recording time on task will help be able to make the case for um more specifically where time is being spent, where they need help. Uh they can track work order aging, uh backlog, those sorts of things that currently can't be done without work orders. Um, and then we see this frequently in utilities sadly is that people kind of skimp on training at the outset and so it's not well adopted and because no one comes back for additional training uh sometimes a CMS can somewhat languish or be used uh inconsistently across an organization. And so our recommendation includes uh a recommendation to invest in training for for staff and uh that's a good investment that pays off in the long term. And so I'll conclude my prepared remarks right now and open that up open it up for uh discussion or questions if you have any >> questions for Mr. Kersh. Thank you for that. Anyone? >> No. >> No. uh council member Holtz >> more so for staff and thank you Mr. Kersh for all that for coming back with the uh change presentation based upon the last meeting. Appreciate it. For beehives, I know we've talked about this before as to it is being implemented but obviously I am not aware of what's going on in the field as of today. Where do you see things are at at this moment in terms of that implementation? How how much is it being used right now? >> Um yeah, so when I started in 2019, it was there and nobody had used it. um it wasn't getting populated with data efficiently enough to uh for the guys to use it on site when they go into new developments and such. So we started working immediately with engineering started rotating um getting that stuff downloaded a lot faster. Um all the guys are using it for sure daily to um kind of navigate our system whether it be water, sewer. When we do our hydro flushing or valve exercising or jetting um we're populating what gets completed each day, they write up immediately uh work orders for a specific item. Let's say a hydrant needs repair. Um that gets populated in there. Um, as far as the work order portion of it, Adam and I are currently the ones that are entering that information and in all honesty, we are struggling to find the time to get that information in there when we can just print and hand it off. Um, so that is the one thing that we need to work work on more is is the work order side of it. Would you anticipate as it as it does expand more that would the accuracy of our data for utility cost be improved or is it is already accurate to begin with like say certain work is being done for this when maybe ends up we we're charging the utility instead of say the department itself. Um so obviously we have to we have to enter in costs you know and then cost change you know per foot etc but uh city for example uses it for snow removal and I mean they're obviously massive and have a lot of support layers but each snow event they know almost precisely on what each snow event costs um with how much salt is used and each route that was accomplished with this certain vehicle and how much fuel uh is tied to the fuel system and such. So there's it's it's super strong. Um it just we got a little time to get there is what we need. >> So is that next step then just implementation more with staff. So it's taken workload off of you too. >> For sure. Yes. the the work order system is what we really want to strive for first and then educating the staff on how to use it. Next in 26 U we're going to implement the iPads so they can actually enter in information in the field right instead of at the end of the day you know all sitting down and trying to remember what they did >> it is vastly preferable to do it live um with SOPs uh with the discussion of the admin staff where is because I I don't know where each department is I we've talked about in other departments. Where is your department at for SOPs? >> Um, we have a binder of SOPs for certain tasks. Um, not every task is in there. We have uh hired say for sure as our training consultant and they have a list of many many tasks related to public works. So that information is there. We just need to sit down and fine-tune it particular to our situation. So, um it's there. Again, we just need a little bit of time to to fine-tune it and enter it in. >> Gotcha. And then in terms of because we had the discussion previously back in May, but I mean I have my preference for service contract over continuing use staff myself, but what do we know from other cities generally what it what is expected for that type of service contract? >> So I've reached out to a couple of our service providers that we currently use. Um neither does service contracts, but we are what they call a a preferred customer. So like >> Oh, good. >> plowing equipment go down, they they get us in like quick like so we can get back on the road. Um they've been very good with that. Um there's kind of a a discounted rate that we also get. Um, so we we have an interest in an ASS asse certification. So that's being discussed internally. An internal applicant is kind of interested in maybe um investigating that. And that would be just for light vehicles. all our our heavy equipment stuff would still be sent out until we determine that a a need is is there where we would hire somebody inside. We're not there yet. >> Gotcha. And last one and then I'll let others have the floor. Um because obviously tonight I mean we're not voting on it. We're just voting to accept the report. We're not I assume we're going to have future meetings to then discuss what we want to do. um when that time comes in in the coming weeks, possibly a month, what do you what do you want to bring to us then in terms of the discussion points for you know obviously Repills has their recommendations multiple ones not just the FTEES but what do you how do you anticipate wanting to move forward with this >> I think so the first first the next thing would probably be the admin right um and it sounds like that'll be a shared admin that'll be located at city You'll probably see that first. Um, we're working on changing job descriptions right now. Um, we also need some buyin with the team and we've started those conversations. Um, if we do the the specialist utility specialist group, we have three that are interested right now. Um, then we'd be looking at adding in a utility specialist lead. Um, so those are things that that need union um approval the pay structure and um anytime we change the on call schedule that has to be. So, that's not going to be quick. Um, I I we're going to get the ball moving right away, but I don't know how quick that'll actually get approved by the union so we can hire those positions since they're changing >> because I I assume like on your end there's going to be like an organizational new chart, new long-term plans to help figure out like how this is aligning because it I mean their recommendations obviously for multiple years. I mean, are you thinking multiple plans, short-term, long-term? Like, what do you how do you see this playing out? >> Um, well, right now, I would say we kind of have an idea for the the three to five year. I think in 10 years, this city is going to be something. We're not quite sure what it's going to be. So, um, you know, we know what we need this year. Um, we have a a pretty good idea what we kind of want for next year, and that's still has some tuning to to develop that position and then uh after that it's it could be every other year if the growth continues that we add an operator or FTE of some kind. So >> thank you. I'm floor is yours. >> Does does beehive uh the beehive subscription uh offer training to subscribers? So let's say you bring on the new FTEEs or the admin person, somebody like that could probably take care of work orders or help do work orders. >> I'll let Adam expert on the beehive. So maybe he can >> Yeah, beehive was just bought out by Civic Plus, which is also another firm that we use for our website. So yes, they do have a a background information for for training as well. So it wouldn't be hard to put that person into place to be trained on how to use the asset management part of it as well as the work order part. >> Okay. You had a question. Council member Jackson >> Marty in the benchmarking um comparisons. Did we factor in services that other cities in our city contract out? For instance, we contract out cleaning our buildings. We contract out a lot of mowing. And so or do we just take information from their acters and and use that without consideration of services that are contracted out? >> Right. I I think as Brian, you know, as we've talked with Brian, there's there are different things that are not the same as us. So um they're not all apples to apples by any means. >> So basically the information what what was in the back of the ACT for >> Right. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yep. So, so just to piggy back on that, the mowing for instance, um, as we go through time and increase FTEES, is that something that that we would look to take care of ourselves as a city or? Um, so when I started in 19, I did reook at that and we had a we struggled finding seasonals, right? And paying a full-time operator what they're paid. It did not justify what you know what we could contract it out for. Now contracted services are going up, so maybe there'll be a balance and we can definitely relook at that. Um, even three years ago, we could not mow um and and maintain purchase, maintain our equipment, fuel for the price that we get contracted out. So, sure, but we can definitely keep looking at it every two, three years. >> Any other questions? >> I'm just wondering, I was trying to look with the budget here. How is this reflected in the 2026 budget that we had back in August? Was there any positions that we added into the budget based off of the presentation tonight or >> Yeah. So, we we did budget for one FTE >> parks. >> I'm sorry. >> Where was that in the budget? I'm just not seeing it. >> Um, it was in the >> Clarissa. >> I believe it ended up it would have been split similar to all the other positions. So, all of our public works positions are allocated across multiple uh uh departments. So >> yeah, >> it it would have been >> was plus just plus one FTE >> one FTE for 26, right? Without knowing exactly what we are going to propose. It was a little tough to, you know, decide if we're going to be budgeting for a supervisor role or just a an operator. So I think we just kind of did a middle of the road. >> And then there's the recommendation for two operators in 2025. Is that in the 2025 budget? >> That is. >> So if that doesn't happen this year, then we're looking at carrying that over to the 2026 budget actually then >> which it'll be it's already in the 2026 budget for these, you know, starting in 25. That increase stayed in 26. >> Sure. Okay. >> Correct. >> Got it. Thank you. Well, if that's all, I'll entertain a motion. >> Move to accept the public works operational assessment conducted by Rafelis. >> Second. >> Second. >> We have a motion in a second. Who won that? >> Nick. It's close. >> He's louder voice. >> I really wasn't even going to go down that road. Hey, the minutes need >> uh Thanks. Thank you for the second. >> You did it in the nick of time. >> All All those in favor of the motion to accept the public works operational assessment conducted by RF Tales, please signify by saying I. >> I. I. >> Those opposed, same sign. Hearing none. It's accepted as as delivered. Thank you, Mr. Kersh. Appreciate your time. Thanks, staff, for the effort that you guys put into that. All right. Item number two. This is brought upon from some comments that we've had and uh in our public comments and inquiries. Wanted to address uh some of the noise issues we're hearing about from the pickle ball courts. Is this uh is this Adam's item? >> Thank you, Mayor. council. Um, in 2023, I was in front of you and we worked on putting together the new pickle ball courts uh that took place at Tablin and Pebble Park. Since that time or since actually implementation of pickle ball courts at Ivywood as well, we received two complaints regarding the noise from pickle ball. These complaints came from areas of Ivywood and Pebble Park. Both complaints were from neighboring homes which are less than the newly recommended 600 ft setback that was initiated in our parks master plan in 2024. Again in 2023, city council approved the reconstruction of those tennis courts at Tablet and Pebble to accommodate both tennis and pickle ball. At the time of approval, city council recommended measuring noise levels to determine the noise uh and the need for a sound barrier. Staff monitored the noise levels at Pebble Park on two separate occasions uh when those carts were full. The average noise decibel at the property line between was between 47 and 53 dB. Current city ordinances restrict noise that exceeds six dB above the ambient noise levels that are designated in Minnesota statutes which is 60 dB during park hours. The issue before us tonight is does the city council want to make changes to the pickle ball court noise complaints and if so what changes are directed. Um staff did u measure approximate distances from our four parks that do have pickle ball courts. Those are listed in the packet anywhere from 184 all the way up to about 297 feet. Again with that restriction uh and our new parks master plan is 600 feet. All those fall below that recommended low. >> What distance were we going off before we knew about that uh recommended distance? >> We really didn't have one listed in in the prior uh parks master plan. >> Okay. >> Um continue on. Um, we're looking for direction from the city council if they'd like to elect um allowing courts to exist within that 600 ft, if we want to reduce that or if we want to maintain that 600 ft and remove our pickle ball courts that we currently have and convert those over into other operations such as basketball courts, hockey rink um or um volleyball hard volleyball court surfaces. Um we have discussed in the past as well as sound barriers as well. Uh I think in our initial conference we discussed that staff is not recommending a noise barrier of any of these sites um as the current noise levels have not exceeded the current city ordinances. Um the initial cost of $35,000 uh was was discussed was only going to cover two sides of that court. Um, you know, we can definitely increase those amounts from 2023 and double those amounts if we were to do that court. Uh, staff suggestion would be if you're going to do one, likely have to be looking at all three because they do all three fall within the less than that 600 ft distance. Um, we didn't meet with the parks commission in regards to the uh pickable noise in at the August meeting. The commission is recommending uh to change the playing hours at Lions and Pebble Park from dawn to dusk starting in 2026. This would eliminate the need for lighting at either park during the summer hours and would likely create more quiet time in late evenings. Um four recommendations or four suggestions were given to the park commission meeting in August. Um that was their suggestion or recommendation to city council based off those four. Again, doing nothing reducing those hours, reducing those distances. um were were were those four items. So at this time um with staff's recommendation, there's no financial obligations. Um any action by city council would be implemented going forward uh at the schedule city council's discretion. If future plans do uh include construction or replacement of courts in different locations, this would be considered as a new CIP item. So if we would remove our ports or we construct new ones, those would be CIP items for them. At this time, I'll take any questions. Uh again, our recommendations would probably be just to reduce playing hours on those pickle ball courts from dawn to dusk or to shorter the allowed time um for users in those neighboring areas. >> Okay, thanks Adam. your questions for uh director or assistant director. Council member Hearn. >> Yeah, thanks for the presentation. Um since the parks meeting, I know you'd mentioned at that point you hadn't really spoke to too many other surrounding communities as far as how they've mitigated sound or what they've done. Have you had a chance since the parks commission meeting to maybe reach out to Still Water, Oakdale, other communities, how they've went about mitigating uh the noise issues? >> Yeah. So, uh, Egan and, um, >> Burnsville >> Burnsville, uh, use a sound mitigation, um, form. It's called a QST stick. Um, it's made specially for pickle ball. Um, we did talk to the manufacturer as well as organization in, um, Florida that uses it. Um, it does mitigate the sound, but it does direct it in a different area. So, it is a hard it's a harder, stiffer plastic that is put up on the fence. um it does make the sound go in but that also goes up so still has to go out. Another product that is on the line that we referred to and first meaning is more of a a material that's made of fiberglass. It's got material in it put on the outside of the fence. Um it does mitigate the sound more and and it absorbs that more. Um our current fence at our there are some downfalls of that of course. Our current fence fence would not hold either either of those products. They are about 100 pounds. Um they're six feet wide, 10 feet tall. So each one of those sections all the way around that um that fence does add weight to that. So redoing that fence would be needed. >> Okay. >> Um another downfall is that you don't have is the wind, right? Wind you're putting a hard surface there. Now you're creating a more um structural surface that it's going to blow against. Um likely going to tip over with the sound of our our current vents. Uh wind inside of it also is obstructed. So you're putting a pretty much a a concrete surface or not concrete a large border around it. So you do not have any air movement inside that quartz unless you know a large gust could go over but um you are mitigating the air movement in there as well. The final one would be that you are surrounding that. Again um you are looking at items that happen that can't be seen from the public on the outside. So, you would be looking at potentially some more violence or some other things that um that would wreck or just graffiti and things like that that might happen in their after hours that you might not see on a regular basis. >> Did and that's super that's really helpful to to hear some of the options. How about I mean did the communities talk at all about as far as after implementing those strategies how that impacted the the residents nearby? Were there less complaints? Were there less issues with the noise or like you said once they put it and the the noise goes up and it still has to go out was were the complaints still there it it didn't change the actual community feel about it. >> Yeah. So like uh for instance Burnsville wasn't able to have that conversation what it what it they installed there is 22 23 you know did it fix the solution? It's a it's a solution right? Um the other the other one was it's a temporary solution right? um these do have a longevity of only five to 15 years potentially or sorry five to 10 years you know then you are replacing them again. So um you know as far as the community response I mean it does mitigate it for for initially the most part um you know is it a future solution for the whole works might not not may not be some discussion about was there any discussion about using some different materials? I'm sorry I'm ignorant on the whole pickle ball things. I don't play pickle ball value my Achilles tendon. Um but my understanding is it uses a plastic ball or there there's uh then there was some discussion of maybe using foam balls. Do they do they act the same? Do they weigh the same? Do they? >> Yeah. So, there is other options as far as the ball. The ball that you could use the court surface itself. They can put a rubberized court on there as well. Again, cost more money. As far as the user itself, they could change that. It's just like asking someone who plays golf to use a Nerf ball now instead of a regular golf ball. Right. So, they do have the um those other that are competitive want to use the one that >> Right. >> We could engineer a quiet pickle ball. I felt the same. We'd be in business. Well, and because that was my question. The American Pickle Ball Association has approved ones that specifically are both a softer racket and a softer ball. I was I was curious like in the case of Burnsville, if you spoke with them if they had even mentioned that. that the question I was going to be posing is are there ways we know where other cities have encouraged we can't we can't force and monitor to say you can only play here if you're using that ball but if there's ways or solutions that are out there where that's started to be an education and a movement because that is way more effective than a diffuser because what you're describing is a diffuser for one to put the sound up that's just diffusing it the absorber is another op is completely different >> councilman rol uh some of the research I did over the weekend on this um they did try to promote the soft paddles and the soft balls and stuff and it was unsuccessful after a year and a half because um there was no one there to enforce it. So people were still showing up with the with the the balls of their choice and the paddles of their choice and then the complaints continued. Is it an option? Absolutely. Uh the next thing would be who's going to enforce it and how. >> I highly doubt deputy wants to be enforcing the racket of choice, but yeah, here's a thought. Thank you. >> Here. >> Yes, council member Jackson. >> Did either of those cities restrict the hours similarly what we're talking about here as a potential mitigation? >> I did not see anything. That was a solution that we came up with on our own. >> Correct. Okay. Couple more. >> Yes. Go ahead. >> So, I was with the 600 foot distance that was in the uh the parks plan. I was trying to think through I mean, do we even have a park where we could put a pickle ball court that's within with beyond the 600 foot mark of the nearest house? >> So, no, we don't we don't unless you're going to put in the middle of Sunfish Lake Park, right? So >> potentially your 77 acres. >> Yeah, >> sure. >> It would have to go in the middle. >> Okay, >> that leads me to my other question of is there other communities that have pickle ball courts at that 600 foot mark that are getting complaints still or do we have any information on that? >> Yeah, so there's there's a number of communities that are going through the same same rhythm roll that we might be going through, right? So with the with the sound um issue. So yeah, we're not the only ones in this boat that are So our neighboring towns definitely have um pickle ball courts that are within that distance, you know, and do hear those. >> But moving it past 600 ft, did that decrease people complaining about it? >> From from the research I did, it it was the best solution. >> Okay. >> That they got it. Thank you. Have we had any other complaints from the for lines lines or tablin pickle ball courts? >> Just the lights. >> The lights. Okay. >> It is interesting. The sound just it seems different at Lions Park. I I don't know if it's because it's more open. I guess more discussion, but >> I mean I do live next to it. It is loud. >> Yeah. >> So, >> well, you know, it's not from the mayor. So >> in terms of because you mentioned it and I I've seen it before. Obviously another strategy is the material itself that you're playing on and obviously the courts are brand new anyway. So resurfacing is not anytime soon. But do we know of others who have used that as a strategy where they're either putting this the spray layer on or just an entirely different type of material where it maybe is having the same feel for a player but the sound creation is not the same or is that still a new and developing thing that's not yet? >> No, that the product is out there, right? But I think the noise comes from the ball, right? It's not It's not the surface >> valid. >> Um when I was the one that that did the sound study one of the times and at no time did the ball ever from my memory anyway exceed like 32 dB. when we did get that 160 decel um it was somebody screaming into you know excitement about missing or the ball. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. Any more questions or we do have some people that want to talk? All right. Um, so, uh, we've got a number of people that would like to talk on this issue. So, my nice ask is that if someone prior to you has indicated something that you wish to expand upon or say the same thing, it's okay to say my comments have been said before related to X, Y, or Z. That's okay. Um, we'll keep the quorum in the council chambers at all times. I'll give you uh six minutes which you want to talk about your particular item and uh so when I call your name you can come to the podium state your name and address for the record for our record keepers to put put that in. And um the first person here is Paul Boltman. Do these both work? >> Yeah. >> Okay. My name is Paul Boltman. I live at 8243 Deer Pond Court. I've lived there for 24 years. I loved living there for 22 and a half years. I'm here to speak in favor of the report's recommendation based on the parks commission August 18th motion to change the playing hours. And I believe the motion actually was sunrise to sunset, not dust till dawn. You might want to double check on that. Um, however, I hope the council understands that this amounts to a very, very minimal mitigation to the problems caused to homeowners who live adjacent to the park or the courts. Eliminating the use of the court lights will help some of my neighbors whom that is a huge problem. I'm fortunate enough to have enough tree cover between myself and the courts that it's not a big problem for myself, but it's a huge problem for some of my neighbors. However, the major problems is the noise generated by the activity and they will be barely addressed if all you do is change the hours. The noise of the paddles hitting the balls and the voices and yelling of the participants are major problems for the residents around the courts. The incredibly loud sound of paddles hitting balls is is known as an impulsive sound. Unlike merely annoying noises such as road traffic or lawnmowers, impulsive noises trigger a stress response in humans and this leads to serious health consequences over time. When I hear the pop of the paddle hitting the ball, I feel myself tense up and it doesn't let up on the second hit or the third hit or the 900th hit we might hear in an hour. I feel tense every time. This is a public health issue. The staff report mentions that the noise levels does not exceed the noise ordinance. I don't pretend to be an expert on acoustics, but I have read that due to the very short duration of the noise of the paddle hitting the ball. It is difficult difficult to get an accurate reading of the decibel level and it takes sophisticated sophisticated equipment and advanced knowledge to get an accurate reading. However, the problem is not the loudness of the noise but our exposure to nearly constant impulsive popping sounds that is known to cause health problems. Changing the hours from sunrise to sunset would provide a small amount of relief. Of course, it is unlikely that participants would stop at sunset, but instead would play through dusk until twilight. And sunset around the solstice is or twilight around the solstice is 9:30. So even doing that would buy us half an hour of quiet time. So it's not a huge difference. And sunrise is the current rule. So that ch that change would not improve things for people that are bothered in the morning. and sunrise can be as early as 5:30 a.m. I want to mention that the uh parks commission August 18th motion also included the recommendation that parking be restricted to one side of the street near the Ivywood courts to provide relief for the people living right there and because of a safety concern for um first responder access when people are parked on both sides of the road. And the uh staff report does not even mention that for some reason, but I wanted to make sure it was brought up. In regard to the staff report, I am puzzled by option two. Is the report suggesting that one of the options is to merely move the goalposts as a means to ignore the problem. Again, I uh urge you to pass the recommendation that will provide a tiny amount of mitigation to some of the problems caused by the to the homeowners adjacent to courts. But I also ask the council to please seek and find a long-term solution that moves the courts out of the neighborhood parks to a site that meets the 600 ft recommendation of the Lake Elmo Parks plan. And I just want to mention to uh council member Craigness's question about the 600 ft. I did some experimenting and I went out 800 feet and you can still hear the pop. You can't hear the voices, I don't think, but you can still hear the pop. So, thanks for listening. >> Thank you. Well, almost right on the six minutes. That was that was good use of time. All right. Next we have is uh John Howley. Sorry, I think I've seen that movie before. John Holly, 8190 Lake Jane Trail North. I live 30 feet from Pebble Park uh pickle ball court. Um yeah, what can I say? Uh Paul Paul put it in uh in good words. Um noise, very noisy, dusty. 60 to 40 to 60 cars an hour going in and out of a dirt parking lot. I'm on two inhalers. You can hear my breath even last week at the uh parks board meeting. I can't get rid of this stuff. The dust. My cars are coated with it. The lights. Uh we thought the lights were a good recommendation. Your lights are shining on about half my yard at night till 10:00. Lighting up my entire not my entire half my yard at night. So, I can't believe that's uh in the city code that a neighbor can light up the neighbor's yard. But yeah, your lights are horrible. I can't sleep at night. My room is actually the closest one to the P pickle ball court. So, I do get the lights and I get the noise quite a bit. Um, Marty was talking about they tested it. What he didn't tell us how many people were on the court was it like Sunday when there was about 80 people on the court with amplified music? Um, was it Saturday when it was probably the same amount of people that were out there till 10 at night? And it's not just the pop guys, it's the yelling and the screaming. He said it himself. The screaming is unbelievable. Every time they make a play, they got to yell. The guys are out. This morning, 7 a.m. I'm trying to work, trying to get ready for work. Every play, they're screaming. They're yelling. I'm literally 30 feet away. I can hear everything they say. I can hear it up in my dining room. I can hear it in my bedroom. He talks about they tested noise. What are you using for testing? Are you using a 20 $20 Amazon tester? You're using something that was made for testing the noise decibb. It is loud. It's very loud. The meter themselves, a good meter is going to cost thousands of dollars, not $20 from Amazon. You'll get a much more accurate reading, but I guarantee was not up there when they were making the yelling and the screaming. You guys said you've only had two complaints. I want to register 365 right now. Who do we complain to? I'm not going to call him every time a guy's up there hitting the ball and grunting. You think I want to pull him out of service? Who do I talk to about complaining? I need give me the complaint line because I got 365 I want to register today. Every single day that court is the noisiest thing I ever heard. I r for 25 years. It's nowhere even close to that. Nowhere close. Portable music. We got to do something about that. at when they bring the radios up. Again, this court is elevated, so all the noise carries around the entire neighborhood. When they have a radio on, you can hear it five blocks away. Soundboards, they're ugly. All right, we got a park here. Do we want to put ugly soundboards up? I don't really want to. It's going to destroy my view. Sorry, I took about a thousand notes here. I want to try to keep down to six minutes. I did have uh some older photos of the park before they did the renovations. We had several trees between our house and the park. Some were taken out because of the ash boore. Um the pine trees, the city and its infinite wisdom decided to trim those up 15 to 20 feet. I couldn't really see the the tennis courts before and that that was h helping with some noise abatement. Once they got rid of those trees and they uh trimmed up the other trees, they uh now I can see straight into it. So, obviously the noise is carrying more of that natural barrier was taken away from me. Um, the other thing that kind of kind of gets me worked up a little bit is when I go look at the door, there's all kinds of flyers up put in their plastic uh protection. There's four groups that take up 90% of the time on those courts. There's one group that has the entire morning. I think it's the Lake Elmo Pickle Ball Club. Then there's two other groups at night. One's got Tuesday and Thursday. The other got has all the other days. and they've got it the entire season. I mean, how is that number one? How is that fair? And how can I sign up to rent the court from 5 to 10 every night? Because I'd love to do that. Next year, I'd love to have that entire thing booked up because you know what I'd be doing? Just sitting back, relaxing at my house like I used to do. So, thank you for your time, guys. We're just We're out here. We're begging for help. Obviously, it started out with one of me a year and a half ago. I came here by myself. >> We're spreading. I mean, it's obvious a nuisance. So, anything you guys can do to help us, we we'd love. >> Thank you, John. Thank you. >> Jennifer Waters. >> Jennifer Waters. 4180 Urban Circle North. It's one N, two T's. Um, I am, uh, one of the coordinators for Lake Elmo pickle ball. Uh, we play Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. till 10:00 a.m. So, um, we have about 110 people on our member list. There's probably about 30 a little more than 30 that actually play routinely. about 38 live in Lake Elmo. Um on average we have 16 players which is four courts. Um twice this summer we have had uh six courts running but that was only twice. I was here in 2023 when we were talking about putting these courts in Pebble Park and Tablin and I advised I was part of our group then. We were formed in 2020 when we played at Lions before this and I spoke against putting these pickle ball courts in Pebble and at Tablin because they were too close to people's houses. But um we're here now. Um at that time I believe sound blankets were approved in the amount of $40,000. Um that was not implemented because of the sound study. Um there may be only two complaints when when I talk to you people. Maybe some of you weren't here. Um it was that pickle ball is noisy. It really is. We laugh but we are not the people who are cursing and playing loud music and we know our players. We have a list. We don't charge a membership. We welcome new people who want to play. Um, and we don't put sheriffs on the courts because that damages them. Um, I'd like to note that the 600 foot recommendation came out after construction was complete. I believe it is reasonable for us to start at 8:00 a.m. Um, our group uh recommends that we remove the practice board that is up. It causes a big booming sound. It's really not necessary. We recommend that uh we install the sound deadening fabric because no matter what the solution is in the future, it's going to be a while. Uh we support having no lights and no play before 8 a.m. or after 8 a.m. I'd like to note that the city has invested about half a million dollars in these courts. Um even if you take down the nets, people are going to bring portable nets. Um, we really support identifying a better location for these pickle ball courts and hopefully um we will find one soon. >> Any questions for me? >> Oh, really appreciate your uh your comments. Thank you. >> How's the other John? John John Hammerly. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Council, Staff, I've had the privilege to go through this same discussion with exactly the same problems in another community. I'm blessed that I'm a snowbird and I get to spend the time down in Southwest Florida with similar of the problems of being landlocked, having pickle ball as an evolving and actually an exponentially increasing sport. And the nimi arguments that frequently come in front of council I've been aware of for a long period of time. We're landlocked. We've got problems with how we're going to use all our resources and use them appropriately. Down in Florida, we have an additional problem with the nimi problem in that it's a tennis community that we're in and the tennis folks are much much more focused on noise. Um, the birds chirping, a little rough sle of leaves drives tennis people crazy. And our solutions down in Florida, uh, of which I participated in, involved trying to find tools that we could get along amongst not only the neighbors and the sound of the pickle ball, but also with the tennis community. The pickle ball courts were developed and were adjacent to the tennis, and it was a significant problem, especially for a tennisrun community. Pickle ball is growing. The ideas that have been brought up, softening paddles, putting pads on paddles, using different balls has been ineffective and has been tried domestically and there has not been a success that I'm aware of in our research. Other non spendy problems of limiting play has been successful and it was for us in Florida. Uh player awareness and education is helpful. who's going to police it remains a problem, but that part is critical. And the community engagement to make sure that people are aware of what we're doing and why we're doing it. I need to go back to a little bit of u high school physics and get into the weeds a little bit because I've heard some discussions about what's the science, what's noise, the acoustic levels, what does all that mean, and if we're going to try and mitigate that, how do we understand that? And I hope to bring a little awareness to where you folks are. Um if we go back to our physics remember decibb dbs is a um logarithmic unit and traditionally it's a power unit. So 3dbs is a doubling of power that's usually we think of energy. The sound energy for humans however is significantly different for a human to see a doubling or a havinging is about 10 dB. So if I speak 10 dB louder I will double the sound. If I decrease it by 10 dB, it would be half the sound. 20 dB. Again, another doubling. Uh, so it would go to from a half to a quarter of the sound. If I go to 30 decel decrease, that would be 1/8% reduction or vice versa. If I increase that, the national standards that are used, FAA, uh, government, we probably have standards within the city, uh, railroad, mechanic shops, hunters, orange foam, muffs, we try to get to 27 decel decrease. That's important for later discussion. There are a handful of ways to mitigate sound. The tools would be hanging the um, most commonly that new MLV, the mass loaded vinyl. It's cheaper. It's the mats that we're talking about hand handling. They've come down in price significantly because there's significant competition. Uh there are a couple companies that uh we researched to find this and we learned from Quiet Strike that their products reduce the sound levels by about 10 dB or a 50% reduction in sound. We heard the top levels measured at 55. I appreciate the comments from John. How do we measure it? But however we measure it, I think a 50% reduction in sound would be substantial. Another company, Sport Sonic Guard, boasts a 28 decibel decrease. That would mean an 88% reduction in sound. We're already below the thresholds. To the other complaints, the percussive noise is a little different than sustained noise. And the other problems with pickle ball are that it is irregular. It's not tap tap tap. It's the irregular tapping sound. And it's the amplification that happens off the paddle. The paddle is like a drum. When the ball hits it, it creates a pop. And that pop is to many people disheartening. We're landlocked and we don't really have an option to to move courts and put them 600 feet from any place else. our solutions in Florida. And what I would suggest as recommendations here would be that those considerations put not only the sound barriers, the sound mats up, which would be very successful in our experience, my personal experience, and I think domestically, but using the other tools to mitigate sound, which would be landscaping, bushes, brush, you heard, cutting trees substantially changed what happened. Those may be slow processes but might be instituted not only in the example here but for future development for our pickle ball courts. I think the landscaping using BMS using other structures and moving things like the current practice board could be very significant. I'd like to go back to a little bit of the history of Pebble Park. 1970 it was created Washington. >> Mr. Hley, you got like 30 seconds. >> Okay. Um let let me propose that the um use of sound barriers could be very successful in our experience. I think we should either rotate the board that's there or remove it so that that is a sound piece that's not present. I think we should limit the hours not to sunrise to sunset but 8 to 8 because of everything you've heard about where the sun comes, how the sun comes and how we're going to use that. I think that is also a fixed point. It's not based on the sun. Promote the community standards. Help patrol, manage costs. I think those are all significant. And I would just like to point out that I was at Pebble Park this morning at se at 8 in the morning. There wasn't a single person present. So at the 7:00 one, I don't think is always true from what Jennifer said. So I would challenge that a little bit. Um, and I would, as a final point to mention, I think that the community has become vibrant, healthier. We have 80 hours in the mornings that we're spending with adults playing in addition to the children that use that park that also scream and yell. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you. Thank you. Um, Lori Hammerly. Lori Hammerly, 9429 Jane Road North, Lake Elmo. Uh, mayor, council members, I'll be very brief. We really appreciate the pickle ball courts. Uh, I've seen your house, John. I've hit against that board. I'm really sorry I've done that. I've hit against that board. I will never do that again. The board should come down. You've heard all the stuff. I'm not going to go through that. Um, but I do like the idea of the barriers particularly going up when that home is so close. Why not start with one wall of barriers? There would still be wind coming through. See what sort of effect that has. And that is actually a narrow wall, so it wouldn't even be that expensive. So that's that's what I would suggest. And also the trees brush sound. We know that that helps mitigate that sound. So again, thank you for the very nice cords. We love them and we really it's been wonderful. So thank you. >> Thank you. >> Um Josh Godbbout Uh Josh Godbbout. I'm at 8100 Lake Jane Trail, so on the other side of of John. Um I won't belabor all the points that they said because I agree with with all of them. Um but I I definitely agree with the noise abatement being something that could definitely be of value. um going out on our deck enjoying the nature. Half the reason why we wanted to come to Lake Elmo in the first place. We love to be in the outdoors and it is almost shocking when we walk outside and don't hear the constant noise. Um it it's pretty pretty much constant. I mean, if we're having dinner on on the deck and it's actually peace and quiet, it's a complete rarity. Um we in fact got the loudest um water feature we could possibly find to try and dampen the noise uh that we hear constantly and we're within 300 feet of the of the courts on on the other side. Uh I just want to stress the the lights as well. Um it's like stadium lights coming into our into our house. It's at the perfect angle. I'm not sure how it can be so perfect. I mean, it's even comes in right through the the bedroom um windows. I mean, to to say that we don't open our windows or open our blinds, I mean, it's pretty much a non-starter. Um it it kind of the noise and the the lights past when once it gets dark out, um pretty much a non-starter. Um when our when we have any guests that come over, it's almost the first thing that they mention to us, you know, because we'll we'll joke and say, "Oh, it's definitely loud." and we have guests that'll come over and the one of the first comments will be, "Okay, you you weren't you weren't kidding. It it is really that loud. It really is that annoying." Um, and and we we love going over there and and playing pickle ball. We're not against pickle ball. I think it's been been stated a couple times that we're definitely not against it. I think we're against the location and the noise that it it brings, but we're definitely not here to ruin people's fun or or anything like that. That's the it's the last thing we want to do because personally we we enjoy it as as well. I just wish it was as as close. Um and then I guess the other question of you know I think it was stated the the average decibb. I guess it'd be interesting to see the full report of if it actually did breach that 60 dB instead of just looking at an average as opposed to what the actual recommendation was. So thank you. >> All right. Thank you. All right. Thank you very much for everybody's uh uh statements. A lot of good information there. Um >> question. >> Yes. Question. Question for staff because I'm the one who made that motion to have give the administrator the authority to spend money for it and obviously it didn't happen. What happened with that money? Did it go back in the CIP because that's where it was would have come from. >> Um I can take this quick. So from my summary that after that meeting um you had made a motion for $40,000. Uh the mayor had seconded that. We did not get a third and then it ended up um with council direction to um add four net install four nets instead of the six um to buy us time to see what kind of feedback we got. After a couple months we had zero complaints and the last two were installed based off of multiple requests from uh pickle ball players. So that's where that ended up. >> Again, those funds are from park dedication, so it won't go through the CIP. >> Thank you. >> Can you just speak about the uh at the parks commission? There was one other public comment about Ivywood and I think it had more to do with the parking. Have you heard any more from that resident since I obviously wasn't here tonight to to give his presentation. Um or maybe if you just kind of reiterate that as well. >> Yeah, since since that complaint and then staff reviewed that um I'll be straight up and honest. I'd have to review the the details of laid out, but nothing has been brought up to my attention since then. >> So, because the issue was that there was parking on both sides allowed, >> correct? And the resident's request was parking on one side of the street, >> right? >> And you're saying that had already that's already been looked into. And >> we look we had looked into that. Yes. In a council meeting and I'd have to look back to see where that changed it to a parking just on one side of the street yet. >> I don't think we did make changes. Yeah, I think that discussion actually came when we were uh looking at placing a a full parking lot down at Ivywood. The resident we had a number of residents that had came and talked regarding that. Um our fire chief was um was here that night as well, talked about the the standards that we did have and that it didn't meet that and so that's why the changes weren't made. >> Okay. Okay. Thank you. So, if we were to move this 600 feet out, it following the CIP, would there be any locations right now as it sits where we could put pickle ball courts 600 feet away from residential homes? >> Um, Adam can verify, but we looked the other day and the only park that would maybe work would be in the middle of Sunfish Lake Park. We'd have to clear some trees or 77 acres that we're purchasing. But >> And what was that best case scenario number? Was it 450 ft, 500 ft? >> Um, what's the question? >> Like if you were to put in the middle of Sunfish, how how far away would it be? If it's not hitting that 600, where is that number landing? >> Oh, there are locations in Sunfish that we could hit 600 feet. >> Okay, >> if that's what you're asking. Correct. >> Correct. Mountain bike there. Yeah, mountain bikers might be affected. Some trees lost, but >> Sure. Thank you. >> Okay, so I'm gonna do a multi-piece motion. Feel free to not support it or whatever, but we've had a solid discussion and I want to see where we're at. Part one, amend hours for pickle ball at all courts except Lions to 900 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. and direct staff to install up to $50,000 of sound absorbing materials on the east and south side of Pebble Park. Would that sound deadening only go to pebble instead of at lions as well or >> Well, can I discuss a second? >> Yeah, sorry about that. >> All right, so my intent there is twofold. One, I don't like the idea of sunrise to sun. Sun changes throughout the year anyways. And what we're hearing number one is mornings stink. It varies anyways. So, let's just have a set time. And I want people to have freedom in the evenings. I don't like saying let's go till dusk. I agree. light issue. Let's take care of that. But I think residents should also have some freedom in those immediately immediate houses to enjoy, you know, six whether it's 5:30, 6, 6:30, I'm open, but not 8 or 9 like people have families and should be able to sit on their deck and have a meal. Uh, in terms of the material, so because the description was earlier, so the way sound works, you can use a diffuser and diffusers change the direction of the sound. Think like in a when you go to a a musical performance and you see a wall that has different shapes on it. That's a diffuser and the sound hits it and bounces it and changes the angle. Whereas my motion is for the absorbing material and it John would described it very well. some you have a noise coefficient reduction for different materials and there are different ones that are out there and the part that's hard is yes the best materials don't necessarily hold up well in the weather that there's a reason for it. Um so my thought on this is let's go three four five years and see how well this works and you know maintenance is going to be one topic. Uh, I have not received a single complaint for noise at our other two sites, unless maybe some of you have, but I have not. Um, the feedback we've been receiving and Paul has been in conversations with us for for months now. I've been out there. Uh, I did make it at a different time when people were out there and I entirely understand the the the imp the impulsive sounds, the it is a percussive sound. I get it. It's not at 60 dB, but it is something that is absurd and I think it is this is worthwhile to take this kind of step and which is why I made the motion, you know, two years ago. Um, but I don't know if 50,000 is the right amount. It might come out to be 47, might come out to be 52, but costs obviously have gone up and I don't think it's needed on the western or the northern side of that. Um, with that said, the more costly ones have a better noise reduction. So, usually, uh, there are some materials that can get you down by 20 dB, others by 10, but it, you know, I think that's something to to be seen. I think at a minimum, the goal should be at least 15 dB. Uh, and then we'll see between that and the hours because people have a right to exercise. They should be able to enjoy themselves. But and and I think Jennifer said this well, let's take some other steps. Move that move that practice board, remove it if if need be. Um but that would be my recommendation. 9 to6 and 50,000 for the east and south side. >> Council Jesus, >> I think um because there's two two issues uh I have with the motion. First, I think 9ine's too late. I think eight o'clock in the morning would be a more a better choice. And I think we should run it till dusk or 8 o'clock, whichever comes first in the evening. No lights. Light should just be shut off. Be done with them. The other thing I think we should have a sign that bans radios and other noise making because we're hearing a loud complaint about that from neighbors and I can understand that they're blaring their radio. you know, maybe someone's saying born in the USA or whatever and and you're tr and you can't hear because of that noise. That's noise we can easily eliminate without affecting people being able to exercise and play the sport and accommodates the neighborhood >> and and I can clarify in the nine part of it is also is there are kids who are still sleeping past 8 with the change in hours for the school district. >> So there there are instances where kids especially in September, October, May into June where that's the case. But I if 8 or 8:30 is better for you, I'm I fully agree with the Well, I guess I'd be curious for staff. >> I have the floor. You interrupted me. I was recognized. I let you speak without interruption. >> My apologies. >> And the my base of eight is we allow construction to start at 7 in the morning under our ordinance. And that's equally as loud or louder than any pickle ball depending on what they're doing. So 8:00 is kind of a compromise in that regard. The other piece I'm in favor of the sound deadening, sound absorbing, but I think our public works said the fences will not support the weight or the wind resistance. So, if we're going to go with that, we're going to have to have an engineer look at that fencing and say, you know, if we if we put a barrier on there and we have I ground wind speed in the code is 115 miles an hour is what you have to design for. If that 150 m hour wind hits that sound and blows a fence over, we haven't accomplished anything. we made more trouble, more a mess, and perhaps endangered somebody's life. So, if we're going to go along, and I do support sound deadening, we have to find a happy median here. We're going to have to have someone look at that fence and determine what we need to do to make the fence strong enough to resist both the vertical weight and the horizontal wind load that would ensue. I also like the concept of doing some planting of landscape to help have a natural, you know, sound barrier. So you can get down 15 dB with the sound absorbing material and maybe we can get another five with the right kind of landscaping. Combine that with the hours change um you know taking off that soundboard saying no radio's allowed we I think we find a compromise where the residents aren't you know aren't being hassled way early in the morning or late at night. They'll still have some sound but it'll be diminished. And yet we allow our residents who want to get play pickle ball and love pickle ball to use those courts and enjoy them. Thank you. I'm complete with my comment. >> Council member Hearn, did you hit raise your hand? Yeah, go ahead. >> Yeah. So, I I I agree um with quite a bit. I'll probably make a little friendly amendment on it, but um you know, coming into tonight, I had the 8:00 PM or 8 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. actually written down. So, it's kind of interesting to hear that reiterated. Um, I I think one of the things that I'd like to just add to that is just completely getting rid of the use of the lights. I think that'll solve the issue of the dust to dawn and the the late summer here where it starts to get darker before 8. And again, I I'm open to seven, you know, to talking about the time for that. But I think if we just get rid of the lights, that gets rid of the issue as far as for like the dust to dawn. Like when does that mean it give a hard stop point? They know that it's going to be done at that point. If people want to play in pitch black from 5:00 pm to 8 pm, yeah, I guess more power to them. Um, and I think that's a really fair compromise. I mean, pickle in the middle, uh, that's in Lake Elmo. It's 247. If people want to play pickle ball outside of those hours, they have they have options for it. I I know there's another pickle ball indoor facility right across in Woodbury. There's ones in Oakdale. So, I think there's lots of options. There's one in Lake, >> the pickle in the middle. >> Is that what it is? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so there's lots of options for for people who do want to be playing pickle ball outside of those hours. Um it was nice to hear that the the Lake Elmo pickle ball organization actually uses that 8 to 10:00 time as well. So like it is being used by the community. Um obviously it'd be different if it was being used by all non-residents. I think it's a different conversation. You know, we are trying to um serve the health. you know, there's a lot of health benefits to playing pickle ball just like there is to negative health benefits having to to listen to it all day. So, I think it's trying to find that compromise with it there. Um I And then so I think like the lights would be one thing that we maybe think about changing and then just to add to it as well, I think we just need to get rid of the the practice wall. Um I think that just needs to go all together. Um, I don't know if necessarily limiting the $50,000 was it or 40. I can't remember what you said. >> 50 was and that's a guest. >> Yep. I don't know if necessarily limiting that to the sound barriers on specific sides. I think I would just leave it at to 50,000 for noise reduction. Whether that be from material use along the fence, um some natural hardscapes, I think, you know, combining those could be a great option. You know, to your point about, you know, obviously we're going to have to look at the the fencing um and the structural integrity of that. If that costs a little bit extra, it's probably be worth it. We're over $500,000 into this project with Pebble Park by itself. Um I think we're kind of committed to it. Um and I think it does serve a good purpose. this. I think we just need to find that compromise. So, I I guess I' I'd like to make a friendly amendment and feel free to to change. I think maybe the hours Well, I'll step back. I'll wait to hear about the hours from Mayor here and Nick as well. Yeah, I think I agree with you, Councilman Holtz, that 9 to6 is fair, especially with the school hours changing as well and hearing comments about people can't even, you know, go out on their deck and enjoy a burger without hearing all this percussive noise. So, I am on the side of 9:00 a.m. to 6 and along with the sound deadening on Pebble Park and especially the the landscaping as well. I think that would help a lot. >> And I should clarify, it was just for Pebble. >> Okay. >> And Tablin for the the hours. It did not include Lions. >> Yeah. >> What about Ivy? >> It did not include Ivy. >> So, I think that's I guess another piece that I would >> We don't have lights at Ivy, do we? >> No. Okay. Well, I was taking some notes and and um I really appreciate all the discussion on this. I guess in my mind um I was thinking of an 8 to8 time frame because people do like to get out in the morning. Most people get their day started whether they're getting ready for school or going to school. I think that's in my mind a reasonable hour to to begin things. I think APM in combination with and I I don't know if I would necessarily put a set dollar amount on it. Now I would like to maybe direct uh public works to take a look at uh the site sports sonic guard something like that. They look like they're more fabric barriers to see what those costs actually are and what it would take because maybe we can do more than what we think of or you know maybe it maybe it costs more. I don't know. Um, in addition to uh we mentioned the uh what are they deciduous trees, right? Put up some some pine trees. They they grow 3 feet a year. Uh definitely uh help out with that. I you know have some experience with that in my backyard with the trail and and they they definitely help with with some sound. Um, I did look up quiet strike and that's more like it looks like it's for a paddle per se. It's not a noise dampening on the court. Correct. >> I think they have a cartella of products. There's just another one that has talked about what they have across the spectrum for solidation. >> Right. I would uh I mean if we're going to if we're going to make an act on this, I think we need to incorporate some things like um you know some signs for people that are using please be respectful of the neighbors around here and make it you know I I like the idea of if you're playing a sport or having some fun and there's people talking or whatever you can generally keep that and just a gentle reminder that you're not the only ones. around there, but also eliminating the need for u music boxes or boom boxes or whatever they call them nowadays. Um uh in incorporate the removal of the practice board at Pebble. And um I guess I would just like to have a a motion that's maybe more all-encompassing of those things than we just talk about those things. So, you know, I'd like to see the time frame. I agree with no lights. Um cuz even after I think well it's 8:43 it's dark outside now and you know the sun's setting here's the fall and sun sun set in the springs a little later and yes we have the solstice but um keep that 8 to 8. Um, I guess that's kind of where I'm I'm coming at for this. Um, landscaping, some signs on the courts to remind people that there are neighbors and to be respectful, no loud music. Um, turn off the lights. uh look at uh some sort of sound dampening um to be reported with a cost associated with it so we can make an informed decision on what that actual product is and how it should act. >> That's my recommendation. >> Would your intent to be to change hours for all sites >> because we have we have not received a single complaint from Lions. I haven't heard of any complaints from Lions, Tablin, or >> Except for Council Member Craig. >> Well, right, we've got one. Um, and I Yes. And I I I think that the one from Ivy is they I think those are the courts that have been there the longest. Correct. >> Um, Lions. >> Oh, Lions Park and then Ivy. Yeah. >> Okay. I said corrected. So, um I think that's more of a a parking concern and I think >> we had one noise complaint. >> One noise complaint. Okay. So, I'd probably put that time constraint on Pebble to begin with and if the other places become an issue, we can address those at this at this time. And maybe that's shortsighted, but that's that's where I'm at today. Personally, I I would prefer it be across the board. I think you just keep it consistent for all the parks. Um, if we close one at eight, all the other three parks are all having all their people go to the one, it's going to be a big issue. Um, again, I think there's plenty of indoor options year round 247 for people who want to play after 800 p.m. >> Question. Do we have We don't have lights at Tablon, do we? No. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yeah, I think the lights are just they're difficult to manage. Um you get that outdoor lighting. There are some things you can do, but I think they're just they're too difficult to manage, especially with some residents that are or close and you know the foliage is gone from some of the trees. It can be an issue and it's great when they green up and stuff. That's why I like pine trees. Um, as you prepare your motion, maybe think about if you want the lights to happen immediately or if this is all on a 26 plan or I I mean I my thought would be immediate with the lights, immediate with removing that um the practice uh wall and immediate with the hour changes or is immediate as can be. you know, I mean, obviously we ought to post it and do those things, but then I I agree with mayor that, you know, maybe we don't want to rush the sound mitigation has to h I think needs to happen, but let's not >> rush it. Let's have a conversation, make sure we get the right material. >> Well, I think we can give direction to staff to come back to council with a recommendation. Um, it also gives the uh parks commission to take a look at the the various types of sound barriers and and I mean just looking at a couple of them there is a there is there has to be a benefit to those. Yes, council member Jaguch. Mayor, I would I would council member Hearns that we should apply these universally so we don't move players from one park to the next and create a problem where someone comes in and says, "Well, you know, we we have the same problem and you didn't do anything for us." If we make a uniform, um I think that would just be a better situation all the way around in my opinion. >> I am rescending my motion. Motion includes. So, this is ours that then are a blend between the five of us. So, still not what you said. at all sites. Hours from 8:00 a.m. to 7 p.m. At all sites, no longer using lights for pickle ball. Starting as soon as able remove sound wall at the wall, practice wall that good people use that I don't at pickle ball at Pebble. direct staff for determining materials to use for noise mitigation, including materials and vegetation options at pickle ball at >> Pebble. >> Pebble Park. >> It was 8 to 8. You said, right? >> 8 to 7. >> 8 to 7. >> Second. >> All right. We have a motion and a second. >> I'm fine with I'm fine with the a seven o'clock, you know, and starting there. Again, I still think it's a really fair compromise um between the pickle ball players and the residents that live nearby. Um maybe next year we hear more voices from the pickle ball community than if of concerns the opposite way. Um but I think I'm I'm fine with the time. I I really I appreciate everything else in the motion, too. And I don't think that extra hour or the one less hour should be the reason we don't don't go for it. Council member Jagisuch, >> I'll go along with the motion if the board majority of the other city councilors support that with the understanding that once we get this if we get sound barriers up, we can reconsider extending the hour to 8 if the sound barriers are effective. >> That's a good point. >> You know, I think that if they do what they're supposed to, we get the the trees in and we get the sound down, maybe we can extend it till 8:00, give one more hour of play. But you know in the interest of striking a compromise between all of us I think that's a good compromise councelor Holt has brought up and and should help resolve the issue and some of it being immediate. >> Yeah. I mean the reality is come here in a couple weeks since that's going to be at 7:30 and without any lights you're not playing anyway. So >> did councelor did you have in your motion the radio the the boom boxes? I did not. And that's because I don't know how easily we would be able to have the sheriff's department enforce a noise that's created from a boom box, from a speaker, from a cell phone, from the speaker that's in their car. Like just there are it is entirely a valid concern. I don't know how easily enforced it would be. >> You could just do signs. Yeah, >> I I agree with I and I think we can let staff know without saying the motion like this, develop some signs as well. Stop that. But >> yeah, I mean with all the discussion around the times, how I mean to the enforcement question, how do we enforce this because people have been so used to starting at 7 playing till 8 or until the sun goes down. That is and this came up in the parks commission as well and I believe the response was with ours that is something we we could ask our fantastic partners at the sheriff's department to increase patrols but we are going to have to do an education process too. We're going to have to reach out to obviously where to the pickle ball associations and there will be some people that don't get the message but the reservation system will have to be updated to allow those hours but yeah it'll take time. Um, it's not going to immediately be on day one, but I think it's going to be a multiaceted approach >> and we'll have we'll obviously have until next year to to get that message out. I mean, we're past anybody playing beyond 8:00 if we're turning the lights off a as soon as possible here. I mean, we'll have some time to get the message out, I think, as well. And but yeah, it is still going to be, I'm sure, challenging. And yeah, >> I guess that's hopefully where >> continue to get feedback from the the community as well if people are still going out and not following the rules. And >> I can uh I can probably support the motion as it is is it's probably uh we're probably shooting a dart at a board a little bit anyway, trying to hit something that makes compromise for residents that live there and the pickle bars are using. Hopefully we we can strike a balance that that that helps. Um so yeah, I can I can uh I can support that motion. >> We could, you know, place signs about the operating hours and the violators will be fine. >> We do have a communications director or communications coordinator that can help get the message out. And I should clarify my I mean it's we don't say in the motion but I mean my goal with the material was not to get material up this season because this is going to it's going to take time to research and determine the the best bang for the buck. It might not be the largest noise coefficient. It might be the third or the fourth but it might be material that weighs a little bit less. Doesn't destroy the fence because not all of them do. Some of them do. The best ones will destroy the fence. But are there other ones that are still a good bang for the buck? All right, I'm going to call a question. All those in favor of the motion as council member holds presented, please signify by saying I. >> I. >> Those opposed, same sign hearing none. Motion passes. All right, we did move uh a again, thank you very much for all your comments and feel free to stick around and listen about >> Lions Park playground. uh replacement >> or not, >> if you wish. >> Thank you, mayor and councel. Um Lions Park playground. So, this playground was installed in 2000. It has currently surpassed its lifespan that uh we've set at 25 years um and is slated for um um replacement in next year in 2026. Um we recently did as park's master plan we did a survey and of that of that master plan 58% of those that are surveyed listed Lions Park as one of the number number one most park visited by users. Survey results also show that that park was his second most common common activity to use at the park was the playground. Excuse me. Um this was brought in front of the parks uh commission uh on two different occasions. One was just to discuss what they would like there for a playground and then again for a final recommendation that they'd make to city council. In addition to that, uh staff did present a survey at the national night out event where we did present all five options to the community. They had an option to vote. Uh children, adults, seniors. Um everyone put a number on a card and put in um in a cookie jar that was later counted up for a tally of votes on our on our on our options. Um the parks commission did recommend option number four. So the issue before the city council tonight would be uh would they like to approve a newly constructed play set at Lions Park using option number four not to exceed $317,000. Um our fiscally um our impacts are outlined in the 2026 through 2035 capital improvement plan. Um the current CIP has $300,000 allotted to this um uh parks replacement. Those additional funds would come out of the parks dedication funds and not additional CIP dollars. Um with that uh I can show you any options or take any questions. >> Council member Hearn. >> Um and well I don't want to discuss it. Um >> phrase as a question. You had to phrase it as a question. >> Well, I'll just wait. I I I'll wait because it's mostly a discussion point. >> All right. So, no questions. >> No questions. >> I'll entertain a motion. >> Motion to table uh the discussion on the purchase and installing of a new playground set as proposed by city staff at Lines Park with expenses not to exceed $317,000. >> So, note if it's tabled, there's no discussion. >> Oh, I'm stuck then. I don't know what to >> do. >> I'll make a I'll make a motion to purchase and install new playgrounds that is proposed by the city staff at Lions Park >> with expenses not to exceed $317,000. >> I'll support that. >> Thank you. Discussion >> love to Thank you. Thanks for that workound. Um yeah, so and I meant to mention this actually in the last discussion as well. I I really appreciate the parks discuss parks commission's meetings discussion with you guys about the the noise barriers and with this I thought it was really helpful and they they got a lot of the questions answered coming in tonight and I I think this choice is great. I'm all on board with their choice. My thought with tableabling it is we're having a workshop with them next week. Um I think there's a lot of um moving parts. I think we've had a lot of conversation around is how do we want to manage these individual playgrounds moving forward here? Do we want to be spending 250 to $350,000 every single year replacing these parks? Um my viewpoint is I see it that people are using parks nowadays more as um they're using them in organized sports. Pickle ball um SCVAA or organized sports. there's less people going to the playgrounds and utilizing these. And I I think that's just the reality. And I think as we're deciding where to be putting our dollars, I think that should should go into it. This comes back to, you know, with the workshop where we were talking about the CIP and again, I I think it's something that we need to look at bringing that CIP number down so we can impact the the budget in a positive way. Um, so my thought on tableling this is I'd rather have the discussion next week with the parks commission as far as how do we want to manage these playground um repairs this $250 to $350,000 not repairs but um >> replacement >> replacements um that essentially we're going to be having to do every single year based off the number of playgrounds we have. Is that the path we want to go down or do we want to consolidate these parks? And and when I say this, you know, where I'm going with this is I maybe we want to spend more than 300,000 on Lions Park because we're not going to be replacing parks the next three years because we want to go all in on Lions Park, right? Maybe that's the case. So, I'm I'm not against spending that money or um that design. I just think we need to have that discussion of is this the path we want to go down before we pull the trigger on $317,000 and kind of set that in motion and and it's next week. So, you know, it's not far away where we can have that conversation. >> Okay. I I'm glad you brought up the second part of that discussion because I was thinking that's the one park I see get used >> Yeah. >> right fairly regularly. So, I do like the second part of that discussion. I I think it would be good to have that conversation about what do we think about park consolidation. It's something that I've thought about is when we get all these parks, when new neighborhoods going, sometimes I think it gets to be unmanageable both from an operational standpoint, well, mainly from an operational standpoint and then a maintenance standpoint in the long run. So, um, that's my thought. If somebody else wanted to have discussion before something else may, if I can just add to that real quick. I mean, that really is my thought on this is Lions Park really is I mean it's like the central location obviously that could change and you know the with the 77 acres that's going to move things apart a little bit, but it's still downtown Lake Elmo, you know. Yeah. What if we didn't replace playgrounds in 2027 and 2028 and we put those funds all towards Lions Park instead? Right. I just that really is my >> it would be a good discussion >> thought with this is have that discussion since we have it next week. >> In terms of time frame was the intent with this to purchase and potentially get installed before the snowflies? >> No. No. So that'd be in 2026. So the reason for bringing it forward at this point was just to get mainly on their schedule knowing that it's going to be a bigger play set. >> Um if you look back at the two that we did along with Pebble and Deantraville, >> we were really pushing the snowflakes by the time we got uh everything all said and done. >> Gotcha. I mean I I was strongly considering pulling this to have this exact conversation on the basis of we've this has been I mean this dates back to even with Dale and and Lisa and Katrina like we've talked about this in terms of consolidation whether or not it happens I think it next week would be a fantastic opportunity for that conversation because hypothetically maybe that central one is not at the the sports site Maybe it's here. Maybe it is at the sports site and then we're left in a conundrum for what to do at this site because it is central and heavily used. But I this isn't a $90,000 one in a neighborhood that needs that is falling apart. This is substantially more. So I think it's a worthwhile group discussion given we've already had the ball rolling on this concept. >> Anything to add, Council Member Jagisich? I tend to agree maybe we should have that discussion with the park commission and then revisit this. >> Anything council member Gregnes? >> I guess I might be ignorant to this but what do you mean by consolidating the parks? >> Well um so long longstanding policy in Lake Elmo had been when a new development gets put in they get their own park which to my line of thinking has maybe How do I How do I put this? It's like like >> people in the neighborhoods only go to their neighborhood park and >> and it so then we ended up with many parks all over the city that um I think at one point in time maybe it was >> I was reading through and it how much time it took just to collect the trash from all the parks in the city. It's like an all day event. So I was like, we've got all these parks and then they all cost to maintain them or when we're going to upgrade them, right? So you're multiplying that by X amount. So is there is there a thought process of maybe looking at our parks and maybe doing you know more consolidated um not to you know when I look at Cle Park it's kind of tucked back in there be great for some uses do I see kids on that playground as much as I see them on in Lake Elmo uh downtown park absolutely Not. Yeah. Cuz there's kids there all the time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I think that's kind of the discussion that would happen with the parks commission and maybe generate some of that thought process. >> Are you on on board with that? >> Yeah. I mean, further discussion with them, I don't see an issue with >> All right. I'm going to make a motion to table this until after the discussion with the parks >> support. >> All right. We have a motion and a second to table. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. >> I. >> All right. Perfect. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. All right. Council reports. Council member Jaguchich. >> One item to report. You know, we talked a little bit about our storm water utility and I had some discussion with city attorney. Uh be before this meeting about our storm water ordinance. I think there's some changes we probably need to make, but it probably makes sense to do them after we've looked at the old storm water charge system, which we seem to have somewhere on our radar screen. Um, but I just want to bring that to the council's attention and um, hopefully as we move forward, we'll get a chance to make great improvements. >> Okay. >> Council member Holtz, >> the Lake Elmo Airport Advisory Committee met last week and noise complaints have drastically gone down. It's not necessarily because of a a change per se. I think there the behavior of complaining has has just changed. But uh we are going to be trying to on the positive side focus on positives of the airport. So the fellow chair and myself as co-chairs are going to be reaching out to our school districts to see if there's interest in creating an airport club at the high school level and increasing field trip possibilities for middle schoolers as that airport is the largest training airport in the metro and they do see themselves as kind of a pipeline for people who want to go into the profession. So, if there's a way to help, they already do flying lessons for kids as it is, but if there's a way to add to that that encouragement and getting them to the airport to know the positive impacts. So, we're going to start that communication process soon. >> Really bigger than Blaine in terms of training. >> Oh, all right. Interesting. >> Okay. Well, I'd be remissed to say that I'm uh I'm really excited about some of the things that will happen uh next uh on the 13th 100th year anniversary celebration and some of the things that are going on this month and we've got a ban. I know we're going to have a flyover and we got a few big tents. I know the Rotary is selling some beer and seltzer and we're going to have what, five, six food, seven food trucks and we're going to have some fireworks. So, uh I don't know. I've handed out a few flyers. I keep mentioning to people wherever, whenever I'm even inviting our local friends from neighboring communities to come in and hang out. So, I'm excited about that and uh that that's what I have to report. Council member >> couple bounty houses as well. >> I we got that. We got that coming. Bounty >> houses kiddos >> can have some fun as well. >> Other than that, no report. >> Okay. >> No report. >> Staff reports. >> No report. >> No report. Miss Johnson. >> No report. Thank you. >> Uh two quick things. Reed Park in my weekly review. I said it's been started twice now. hopefully this week. It's still not actually moving. Uh this week that should happen. And then we have had a couple of issues with our booster station. Um we've been able to maintain and keep fire protection in the Inwood tower. Uh that correction should occur tomorrow and be back to normal. any uh question. Uh the the turf, University Minnesota turf, did that get installed? >> Yeah. So, an update there. Um they have planted it, blanketed it, the irrigation's going, and that grass is up two to three inches and they're using half of the water that they predicted. So, they're literally using very little water. Um, obviously we've had some heavy dew and rain. >> We had some rain and >> but they're overwhelmingly surprised. So, good things on that and um they anticipate their irrigation will be off in the next couple weeks period. So, >> right so oil >> dude Mr. Isacson >> mayor and council just a couple things. things. Engineering will be having pre-construction meetings this week for the I94 lift station force main project, which they anticipate uh starting to put up traffic control and pre-worn signs next week uh on a preliminary schedule. And then at the end of the week, we'll have a pre-construction meeting for the demolition of the water tower uh Langley Court just south of the railroad tracks in downtown. And that'll be sometime later yet this month. And I'm assuming all the notifications have been given to the residences around the water tower in that area so they know what's going on >> and we'll work with those directly impacted on access. >> Is it going to come down like piece by piece or is it going to go? >> Yeah. >> Typically this contractor cuts it by pieces and sets it on the ground with a crane. So uh it's it they'll move in in the morning and that thing will be >> down and gone by the evening. So there's a couple more challenges with this site with the power line and such, but potentially it could be gone that same night. So then there'll be some restoration and some pipe work below grade foundation following. >> Councelor, >> no report. >> All right, with that we will adjourn this evening's meeting at 9:09. Did you want me to you want me to cut off your listening? Um design.