Thank you. All right. Good evening, everyone. It's 6:30, so we'll get started. We'll call the parks commission meeting on October or August 18th to order. Um, first is the pledge of allegiance. >> Yeah, sure. >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Um, and as folks are trickling in, yeah, if you could please fill out a form and then give it to me if there's if you want to have public comment, that would be great. >> Um, so first, can I please get a motion to approve the agenda? I move to approve the agenda for tonight. Thanks. >> I'll second that. >> Any discussion? I'll put forth an amendment, proposed amendment to um change the order of the agenda and move the pickle ball item um flip it with the playground replacement there. >> I'll second that. >> Second. Um any discussion on the amendment? All in I'll call the vote then. All in favor of the amendment say I. >> I. >> I. >> Any opposed? Okay. Um, is there any further discussion on the motion to approve the agenda with the Lions Park playground replacement and the pickle ball agenda items flip-flopped? Okay, I'll call the vote then. All in favor say I. >> I. >> I. Any oppose? Okay, motion carried. Um, next agenda item then is the approval of minutes, which we don't have. Um, so we'll table that unless there's other thoughts. >> That's correct. Yeah. Okay, great. Um, public comment. It looks like we have a number. They're all on um pickle ball is all that I have right now. So, I'll um just call folks up. Um and as a reminder, you'll have six minutes to speak. Um we'll ask you to please state your name and your address uh at the beginning. Um, and you know, we're not gonna uh we can't respond directly to you, but we can ask clarifying questions. Thanks. Um, so first is John want to talk. >> Which one? John. >> John Howie. Yeah, >> you guys always pick me first. I need to get one. >> Turn in your form first. There you go. >> All right. John Howley, 8190 Lake Jane Trail North. I live right next to um that's that park name Lake Elmo or uh >> Pebble here. >> Pebble Park. >> Pavo Park. I am sorry. I've had a long day at work. Uh I live right next to uh Pebble Park. Unfortunately, I haven't come in front of uh of your group before. I've been in front of the city council when I started out. Uh, I had someone come to my door years ago and tell me they are planning to turn Pebble Park tennis courts into pickle ball. And at the time I didn't know anything about pickle ball. My parents play it. That's as far as I knew. She said, "You do not," and let me preface this. She is, I think, a member of the local association. She said, "You do not want this next to your house. the noise it generates is going to drive you nuts. So, doing my due diligence, I went to the city council meetings. Maybe I should have been coming to these meetings. Um, so they they changed our courts. We had three tennis courts. They changed it into six pickle ball courts, one tennis court, and a practice board that they conveniently turned from the back corner. They moved it to face my property. I don't know if any of you guys have speakers in your house, but if you turn the speaker the right direction, it projects the noise even more. So, as far as the pickle ball court, so the pickle ball court seems to be extremely popular in Pebble Park. I mean, obviously there's a need for it. There's a want for it. People love the game. I have no problem with that. I've been involved in sports my entire life. I used to work with Mike Elum quite a bit for years and years. Um, I have no problem with sports. What I have a problem with is the noise. The noise of pickle ball is extremely loud. Now, we just take in that popping of the ball sound and it sounds like that, but maybe a thousand times an hour, maybe 2,000 times an hour, you're hearing that. I have to hear that every day. They open the part the the their tennis courts, the pickle ball courts can be open any time of the day. So, they can be out there at 6:30 in the morning, but they're usually there at 7 a.m. and they're loud. They start playing right away. So, I can hear them playing the pickle ball. It's very annoying if I'm trying to wake up or if I'm trying to get a good night's rest. I can hear them in my house. Obviously, my house is well within the 600 feet. It's more like 100 feet. I can hear them. But not only is a pickle ball playing, nobody ever talks about the noise. I can hear every conversation they have in that court. Now, a court, if you know that court, it's elevated. And what happens when you have an elevated structure? It broadcasts noise even further. So, I'm in my kitchen in the morning. Guess what? I can hear all their conversations. I can hear everything they're talking about. But it goes beyond the conversations. Pickle ball players are some of the loudest players. And again, I've been active in sports. I've refed sports full time. Some of this is approaching that noise level. The hell yes. The Oh, yeah. And I at 7 a.m. I'm hearing this. Oh, yeah. I mean, it it's extremely loud. It's consistent. It's every single day. But it gets worse at night. There's certain groups at night and I'd say ladies, close your ears. But the word [ __ ] is said about a hundred times an hour. [ __ ] yes. [ __ ] yeah. Oh yeah. I've called the police before. I've done my due diligence. I've called the police. Guess what happens next week? Oh, there's that guy that called the police on us. Yeah. So, you're wondering why there's only two complaints? Yeah. Sometimes we worry. I've got three little kids I got to worry about. I got two little girls that I definitely don't let them out at night around the court. And the one time they did go out to the court because yeah, they do like pickle ball. They like tennis a little more, but they like pickle ball. Hey kid, adult time. Yeah, I live right next door and they get kicked off. In addition to the noise, a lot of the things are extremely poorly planned. The parking lot is dirt. There's anywhere from 20 to I've counted 65 cars up there just for the pickle ball. Guess what they like to do every time they pull out? Spin their wheels. They love it. I live in a dust store. My shit's covered with dust all day long. Sorry for the language. My stuff is covered in dust all day long. They spin out. I'm coughing. I'm on two inhalers already. I don't need any more dust in the air. That's You can hear it in my voice right now. to have a hard time talking. Uh when they did that, they did some improvements in the park. Uh they cut down three trees real close to my property line. They also trimmed everything up to whatever the standard is, maybe 18 feet. Before there used to be I could kind of see the porch, but not really. Now I have a direct view anywhere in my house. I have a direct view of the courts. Most of my yard direct view of the courts. So they took out anything that was blocking us. I did um I did have two people over from the Oakdale City Council. I wanted a kind of a a different opinion on everything. Two different times, two different people. One said this would never happen in Oakdale. One said, "Did they do any studies on this?" The lights, the lights stay on till 10 at night. Guess what? You're lighting up my yard. Over half my yard is lit up at night. And we can go further uh into the home values. The home values alone, this is this is on the National Association of Realtors website. They estimate living next door to a pickle ball, your house value drops 10 to 20% in value. Now, what I told the city council is something completely different. I told him my house is unsellable. When the hell is somebody going to look at my house with 60 people making noise like they're at a football game and say this is the house I want? My house is unsellable. We were told before it was built they're going to put noise abatement in. They're going to put trees in. The project actually got put on standby. But guess what? I guess they thought we'd forget about it. They didn't do any of it. And again, they moved the practice court to face my house. I think that was kind of a hey, thank you for the suggestion. >> You did when I did buy my house, I did do my due diligence. I spent two weeks in that park. I'd go there at night and during the daytime. I've got a job where I can be out and about. I spent two weeks to case the park just to make sure, you know, everybody has a concern about the park. We all know the the park's history. We we all know what people think about the park. And I didn't have a problem with it at the time. If I went there now, guess what? I would never bought that house. >> And just just to wrap up, when it started, there was one of me. We're growing. We are growing. This just came to my attention yesterday. If I had known more, I would have got more people here. We could easily have 30, 40, 50 people here. They can hear this four, five, six, seven blocks away. They can hear this noise. And I know people aren't happy about it. So, it's not just me. The group's growing. We're not going away either. We will be here. And, you know, we'd like some recourse to this. >> Thanks for your comment, John. Um, does anyone have any questions >> for me? >> That's right. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. I get a question tab. Okay. Okay, thank you. Um, Tony, and again, if we could please have you state your name and your address and then six minutes and I'll give you a little signal if I need you to wrap up quickly. >> My name is Tony Bony. I'm a 20 25 year resident of Blake Elmo in my second house here. Uh, my address currently is 746 Ivywood Circle. Uh, if you don't know where that is, I live I'm probably the closest citizen to a pickle ball court, I'm guessing, but it's right across the street from my house. Um, I didn't really prepare anything because I just found out about this meeting two hours ago. So, um, but I did want to come I dropped what I had tonight to come up here and just talk. Um, everything he said is 100% 100% correct. I agree with everything he said. We don't have the parking lot problem because we don't have the parking lot, which I'm going to get to in a minute. We don't have the light problem because we don't have lights. But other than that, everything he says is spot on. We hear the swearing. We hear the yelling. We hear the balls. You know, dink, dink, dink, dink all day long. And it it just drives you baddy. And it's from 6:30, 7 in the morning. Last night, they were still playing in the dark. 9:00 last night, dark out, and they're still out there playing. I said to my wife, I can't believe they can't even see the ball. Um and and one more thing I want to say, too. I'm a huge fan of the sport. I play two to three times a week. My wife plays three to five times a week. We don't play across street from my house because we can't get on. The courts are so busy, but we belong other places and we play it quite often. So, we're huge fans of the sport. Um, the main reason I came, aside from the noise, is the parking. I came to the city council a year ago and talked about the parking problem because in Ivywood there's not a parking lot and the street is very narrow there. So, I came and I I requested, "Can we get no parking on my side of the street?" And I got shut down. Last night when I came home at 8:00, there was two cars on one side, two cars on the other side. I couldn't get through. One guy had the door open. He was tying his shoes. We have to stop and wait for them to close the door. Close the doors. If there if one of my neighbors, and I live in a retirement community, if someone has a heart attack, an ambulance is not getting through when people are on both sides of the street. It's impossible. if there's a fire, a fire truck cannot get through. And on top of that, it's it's just the the sheer inconvenience of having all the people parking. They park on my grass. They turn around right in the middle of the street when they're done playing. They just turn around right there, drive onto my grass, back up to turn around. They come around the corner. They go into all of our driveways, turn around, go out. It It's just constant problems um with with the volume of people playing pickle ball there. And we only have two courts. You you said you have six. Six. >> Yeah. We only have two. And there's eight people that are playing all the time. Obviously, very popular. Everybody loves it. But just the volume of people in our neighborhood. And And this is our neighborhood. These are our homes. The volume of people in our neighborhood. It's it's just not right. I I look at the cars. There's cars from Wisconsin there every day. So, people are inviting their friends to come and play every day. There's Wisconsin cars. Um I have friends, a lot of friends that live in Woodbury. they come to our courts and play because they like our courts better than the ones in Woodbury. So, um, for us it's the the noise and the parking. >> So, that's all I have to say. >> Any questions? >> Thanks, Tony. >> A question. Do you you have a suggestion for parking that you'd like to see there? >> Well, I requested no parking on one side of the street. >> Would that be sufficient to you? Well, it would solve the problem of fire trucks and ambulances and getting through. I mean, it's it's still going to help the volume of people there. Um, so that's not really going to solve the problem, but it they they should not be able to park on both sides of the streets. I mean, that's that's a given. >> Okay. Thank you. >> If any of you guys go there and look, you'll see it instantly. I mean, just just do it yourself. Park a car on both sides of the street and try and drive up the middle. It's very tight. >> Any other clarifying questions? >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thanks, Tony. Um, next Dana. Hi. Um, my name is Dana at Chavaria. Um, I have lived in Lake Elmo and in my neighborhood since 1982 and my mother and her nine siblings for a very long time before that. So, I've got to watch Lake Elmo bloom and grow. Um, I have played at Pebble Park my entire life, including tennis and basketball. And I know I responded to the survey when you guys were considering changing it to pickle ball. I wanted a skate park. I've got a boy who likes to skate. I think it would be really cool for a community to have it. Um, I 100% agree with John. I should have listened to him before the park was built because we had someone as kind as Paul did yesterday and bring us information. I didn't think anything about it because I have lots of family that loves to play pickle ball. Um, but when the when it got built, I started to realize how obnoxiously loud it is. And on top of it, my yard is directly across from Pebble Park's entrance, so I can see John's house and I can see all the lights. Um, I did bring you guys pictures as proof of um, light pollution. This picture is from May and this picture is from last night. And I had them printed so that you guys have visual proof of the light pollution. Um, if I didn't have very old, beautiful trees, this would be right in my backyard. Um, the sound is so loud. There is no sanctuary anymore. There's no crackling of bonfires because all you can hear are the ping of balls. Um, in a gym there's etiquette. You can't be grunty. You can't be loud. And I have heard more grunts and thrusts since this has been established. And I come from a family of Stillwater athletes, so there is etiquette in all sports. And this one seems very brash. Um, so I side with most the people. Um, I didn't know that my house was only 454 feet from the pickle ball courts. And at bare minimum, I think you need to at least move it for 600 ft, which I don't know how that's going to happen because you're going to affect a whole bunch of other people. This park is huge, but I don't know that you wouldn't be affecting Paul or other neighbors or even Oakdale at that point. Um, I don't really have much more to say to it, but I would love to hand these pictures off to someone. Great. Thanks, Dana. Um, sure. Um, are there any clarifying questions for Dana? Okay, thanks. Um, next, Jill. Hi, I'm Jill Knuckleby Kaiser and I live at 8241 Deer Pond Court North and our property goes right out to the back of Pebble Park and we um those lights shine directly into our bedrooms and not only the the hours that are listed. There have been several times where the hours um the lighting timing has been off. So, the middle of the night the lights have come on. Um, I realize things happen and problems happen, but um, there's nobody to call in the middle of the night when the lights are shining right into your bedroom. And so when I call during the day, they got on it within a couple of days. Um, so that's a consideration that I don't think was properly taken into account. And then I do have to ask the question, the standard is 600 feet from a home. it's intentionally plopped between multiple homes which are well within that 600 feet. And then the other thing I heard was that there have only been a couple complaints. And so that doesn't seem like a very proactive approach to put something in place that's against recommendations and then say nobody's complaining and putting us in the position of being neighbors who complain. Um, I have called the police because we've had hours where somebody is there much later and we can, as mentioned, we can hear what they're saying and not it's not very appropriate. Um, and especially we're trying to raise a a decent human being who's younger than than voting age. um to have to hear their neighbors out there swearing away um is really not the community that I think we want to live in. I realize you can't police individual behaviors, but there are some things that we can do. So, when as I look at the the report and having um one of the options being do nothing, I realize that's always an option, but it doesn't seem like a fair option at all when the pickle ball was already placed within um within the boundary of 600 ft. Just kind of waiting for people to be irritated. And that's really not the kind of neighbor I want to be. I want to be more proactive and solve things in advance rather than create a problem and just hope that nobody complains. I kind of think that's the way that you would approach this too. So, um I do think this needs to be addressed and that you can auto I like what like John said uh if more notice we could get more people here because I don't think do nothing is an option. Um these are people's lives, their homes, their home values and our our individual daily experience is less than optimal. I like pickable. I like saying that we can walk to a pickle ball location, but it's really if you look at the lifestyles that have been impacted here. Um, I think that needs to have a stronger voice than than the day-to-day little enjoyment. So, that's probably enough for me, but lights, sound, and taking do nothing off of your options is definitely um my recommendation. Are there any clarifying questions for Jill? No. Okay. Thank you. Um, next could we have Paul? My name is Paul Bolton. I live at 8243 Deer Pond Court. I've lived there for 24 years and I love living there for 23 years. My home is 360t from the courts at Pebble Park. We are subject to nearly constant percussive sound as described of the paddles hitting the balls. Most days this occurs between eight and 14 hours a day. It's actually surprising to me how loud that is of the paddle hitting the ball. I wouldn't have anticipated that. And as described, it's accompanied by a fair amount of uh yelling by the participants. Um but to me, the main problem is the sound of the percussive sound of the paddles hitting the balls. Exposure to constant noise is a known stress inducer in humans with serious health consequences. There have been numerous studies confirming this. I'd like to believe that if the members of the commission, I know you weren't all on the commission back then, two years ago, and members of the city council were aware of the noise problem that pickle ball causes, they would not have placed the courts in neighborhoods with adjacent houses, especially without any notice to or feedback from the neighbors. In addition to the uh negative mental and physical health impacts of being exposed to near constant noise, there is the issue that's already been brought up of the detriment to our housing values. I'm sure my housing value has gone way down and it would probably be difficult to sell my house. The staff report discusses the fact that the tested noise decibel levels were in compliance with the noise ordinance. But the issue is not the decibel level. It's not the level of the sound. It's the constancy of it. Decibel level ordinances are usually enacted to prevent protect people's hearing, but but they're not enacted to pro protect people from the stress of the constant noise. In one regard, the parse commission and the city should be commended for proactively providing these facilities to meet the fast growing demand of this popular activity. From what I can tell, Lake Elmo has many more pickle ball courts than the adjacent suburbs. I've did a little bit of looking. Unfortunately, the inconvenient truth is that something that generates this much noise does not belong in a park close with closely adjacent homes. In regard to the five options provided by the staff report, I strongly believe that option one, moving all pickle ball courts to a location meeting the 600 foot guideline advised in the 2024 lake park system plan is the best and most coste effective long-term solution. The vast majority of players at Pebble Park arrived by vehicle. So this would not be an undue burden for participants. Just for reference, there are 15 homes within six 600 feet of the courts at Pebble Park, 12 homes within 600 feet at Tavlin Park, 41 homes within 600 feet at Ivywood Park, and 11 single family homes within 600 feet at Lions Park. In regard to option two, merely changing the recommendation, I'm pretty sure that you would not stoop to moving the goalposts as a means to ignore the problem. On that topic though, I experimented and discovered the sound of the paddle on the ball can be clearly heard at 800 ft. So really the distance recommendation should be increased to 800 ft or more. The staff reports discuss the staff report discusses some possible problems related to noise barriers, but I'm also doubtful that would be a good solution. However, it would be interesting to go somewhere where they actually tried that and see how it works. Option four of the staff report is to shorten the playing hours in the morning and evening. Having talked with many of my neighbors, I know that would they would welcome that. Some of them are early to bed and some are are late sleepers like myself. But I wonder how well this would be complied with and how it would be enforced. I would not be against you taking this action. But it but to me it would only be a band-aid to the much larger problem of the stress inducing noise throughout our days. And as Jill said, option five to do nothing. Well, I don't believe you're a do nothing commission. You are all welcome and invited to come to my house and experience what we endure every day. And hopefully you could, if you did that, you could imagine what it's like to listen to it for 8 10 hours a day. Uh, thank you for listening. I will answer any of your questions and I will follow up with an email to each of the members. There any clarifying questions for Paul? >> And if you if any of you do want to come and listen, there's always play between 8 and 10 in the morning. Couple games usually and then in the evening between 5 and 9, there's four to six games going if you really want to hear at its worst. So, thanks for listening. >> Thanks. Um, next who we please have Josh. So, I'm Josh God. I live at 8100 Lake Jane Trail. Um, I don't know if I could say it much better than those that have already been up here. Um, I agree with everything that they've said. Um, I would love to see any course of action here to to do anything about the issues that has has already been stated. Um, I mean, when we go out in our yard and in our deck and try and enjoy the outdoors like we love so much, I mean, it's shocking to us not to hear noise. I mean, it is truly constant. Um, we don't want to ruin anyone's fun. I I like playing pickle ball. It's that's that's not our not our goal here. Um, but but I really do think something needs to be done. I I really thought initially that having it kind of in our backyard would be a really really good thing and that is has very quickly changed. Um, the light is extremely excessive. Um, I I don't know if there's anything that can be done about that. it shines right into our bedroom. Um, in late at night, even sometimes past that when I'm not sure if there's a malfunction or something that happens, but it basically would stay on multiple nights in a row, just constant light. Uh, we have to basically windows can't be open in the house, otherwise there's constant noise. You know, blinds need to be shut if it's at if it's at nighttime, otherwise there's light coming in right right in our our living room. Um, so, so I'd love something to be done. Um, even when we have guests over at our house, that's that's the first thing they say to us is, "Wow, that that is actually really, really loud." I never realized that many of them are pickle ball players themselves, but that is almost the first thing people notice when they come to our house. It's really unfortunate. So, thank you for the time. >> Any questions for Josh? >> Okay. Thank you. Um, next is it Sandra or >> Chandra? Sandra. Okay. >> My address is 3646 Leighton Avenue North. I just moved in there last December. So, when people talk about lights, um, across from the ball fields and there's lights from the other ball fields. I moved there, there was lights. I am not going to complain about that. But what I will tell you is the ball players that are there are so much quieter than that pickle ball court that's sitting in the middle of Lion's Park. you know, when they're playing when I'm working from home because I work at the state and because I have a disability, I work from home. My noise suppression on my speaker goes off over and over and over when they hit that mallet. No. And so, it's not that though. Pickupball players are a little bit more aggressive and Lions Park is a very calm park. Even with all the millions of baseball players and stuff, there's never except tournament weekend, there's some noise. But that pickup ball court right next to the children's playground and the loud noise that they make and the lights they flip on can be disturbing to our neighbors. So, I know you guys are looking at Lion's Park and what 2026 or something. I want you cons to consider what that pickup ball court is doing to Lion's Park because the loud bang of it, the loud kids that are there and like the others, they peel into the parking lot and back out of it now. I got dust. You guys do the ball field over and over and over. I dust every day. I'm across from it. But when they're peeling around in that parking lot and pulling out because they're all wound up from picket fall and making their smacking noises, it can become cumbersome. Now, like I say, I moved into it. I'm not going to tell you to change it. I moved into it. It was there when I moved into it. Um, so that I just wanted to bring that up because it's a older community. The homes are older. I bet you they can hear it. Mine was gutted and remodeled. I got new windows and I can still hear it. So for the rest of my neighbors and that little area, the village of Lake Elmo doesn't feel like a village right now. So I just wanted to make comment that the pickup ball is a little loud and obnoxious. Any questions? >> There any questions? No. Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Um is there anyone that missed turning in a form? Okay, great. Thanks. >> Can I just ask real quick as a res >> my husband >> that as a previous first responder to me it was a waste of resources to call 911 every time they're out there playing music. I don't want to have to call the cops or call 911 to say hey this is happening. So of course you don't have any complaints but you know it is Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Um, so as you've heard from a number of the residents, this has came up and and council is looking for a recommendation from uh the parks commission in regards to this matter. So just as briefly noted in the background, we uh installed pickle ball courts there in 2020 proposed in 2023. Uh we they eventually got placed in there in 2024 both in Tavlin and in Pebble. Six courts were placed in uh Pebble as well as four in Tablin. With that these were placed three pickle or three tennis courts in uh Pebble and two tennis courts in Table. Um again the city council approved the rec uh reconstruction of those courts um after a number of conversations not only with parks commission but also with them with our contractors. Our contractor did end up not getting them fully completed that year in 2023 24 we actually finished those uh later in the season they opened I think right around that June July era in 2024. With that being said, um a number of um seen received some complaints in regards to the noise there. Um and so the issue before the parks commission tonight is would the parks commission like to recommend to city council a change in the in the existing use of the pickle ball courts if it's less than 600 ft. So our parks master plan was actually completed after the installation of our pickleball courts. So that recommendation in our parks master plan comes from the national park and rec association. So that wasn't a part of a of our previous recreation room plan. So that comes kind of a out of hindsight of what we have already completed. Right. So with the with the with within our current system we have four pickle ball courts as discussed. Lions park, Ivywood, Pebble, and Tableau. All of them have a minimum of four pickle ball courts with, um, Pebble Ball, uh, Pebble Park being the only one with six. So, with that, um, we've heard from our residents talking a little bit about distances. I have, as indicated in the staff report, the distances, and those are going from about, you know, these are going from, um, either Google Maps or just from a a property viewer from Washington County, right? So we're going from approximately the corner of the the courts itself to the closest approximate corner of a house. So again, those are approximate distances. They could be 10 feet more or less than that. I would say that's a that's a good recommendation there. So So just in in regards to that, um you know, we talk about changes um going forward, right? if that if that's what we pursue to do. If we'd like to change one pickle ball court, we should implement that to all of them. So, currently right now, none of our pickleball courts would meet that 600t distance. Um, so some of our re So, one of the recommendations uh was like one of the residents said was, "What do you decrease that?" You're not going by the national recommendations, but you're trying to meet policy, right? So, um, with that, if you do look at our distance, again, it might be pretty hard to do so, but it's an option, right? The current plan to update, uh, our Lions court comes into question as well. In the last couple months, we've already talked about Lions Court, what our, you know, what we want to do with that ice rink. We also want to include that pickle ball with it because that was a hot item there before. It's kind of where we started. Um, and it's been a great asset down there. So with this with our recommendation that's coming forth today, we do need to take that into account as we move forward with the 2026 reconstruction plan of that. If that does include pickle ball courts or if that does not and it's purely solely ice rink or whatever we decide to do with that, going forward. In the report, it does talk about noise barriers. uh as part of the city council. Um they did authorize at one point the the administrator to approve that if we were to go that route. We did do those uh noise ordinances as discussed by the the public here today. Um we did that and it did not meet that decel noise and that's why we did not pursue that any further. There are options in regards to the noise uh the noise blankets. I have indicated in there at that time there was about $35,000 if we were to put that noise uh barrier there. That would include two sides of that court only and this is just regards to uh Pebble Park now. So that is one of our larger caged areas. So you're looking at probably the highest range there. Those prices do come from the 2023 price. So you can probably increase that by 10 to 15% um to do those two sides continuously. As far as maintenance on those, um, it does there's there's some conflicting issues with that or conflicting stories in regards to that. I put three to five years probably. Um, when you you look at the distributors and their in their comments, they can last 10 to 15. You have others that last 20. Uh it just really depends on the product you buy. Um the cost that you're going to invest in it and then what you have there as far as rodents or anything that else is going to, you know, eat at it or sun barrier, you know, sun rays and things like that that might uh deter that or deteriorate that material. The material there that is noted there at the 35,000 is material that is used currently right around many generators and things that are outside. So, it is kind of a similar product that you'll see outside regularly. Um, you know, that you might see at a hospital, industrial building, you know, apartment complex, things like that. Probably not in that vast, you know, vast area like that, you know, covering 200 feet one way, you know, 100 some feet the other, you know, more of a condensed uh probably 10 by 10 area that might cover up a generator, right? 10 x 20. With that, I'll just kind of review those options again. Again, recommending moving uh individual or all pickle ball courts and search for a different area that would meet that distance of 600 ft. Number two, making a recommendation to reduce the distance to accommodate those existing courts. Installing a noise barrier blankets on individual on an individual basis. Adjust the playing hours to allow more quiet time early in the morning or late in the evenings. And number five, uh just moving forward and doing nothing at this point. With the minimum number of complaints the city has received regarding the pickleball noise in our parks and the decibel level not exceeding the ordinances, staff would recommend considering adjusting the plane playing hours on one or more of the courts based off complaints. Traditionally, three adjustments would be based off complaints from from one residence or through a petition process about neighbors or neighboring 600 feet. The ability to enforce of it to enforce it is kind of unknown. you know, as we as staff, you know, we might um ask the sheriff's department to, you know, go into a park more often just because we might see graffiti or we might be something happen. It's only based off their ability as well. So, us to enforce hours like the public said probably, you know, you're not going to see public works out there um till late at night, you know, 10 o'clock, make sure lights are off, things like that. It's going to be enforced by the abilities that we have uh in front of us. >> With that, I'll turn it back over. There any questions for Adam? >> Can I ask a quick question? >> Um, yeah. >> Uh, Adam, two two questions that are going to This is about memory, so I'm going to put you on the spot, but can you remind me I do not recall what the decision was on Ivywood parking when we made it a couple years ago. Um the council made a decision about parking. Can you remind me of >> Yeah. So, we did propose a different parking area there. That would be just to the actually to the east of that uh pickle ball area in the pavilion. Um it the price cost of that was about 90,000 without a storm water um uh pond I think at that time. Um to have it engineered and to have that storm water because there would be runoff, there would be curb and gutter with that that just kind of really escalated that price of that. So, I think that's kind of where that stood as far as like, you know, just kind of halted it at that time. >> But, do you recall anything about side of the side of the street parking? I I believe there was discussion. >> There was a discussion in that as well. I think that was just um based off our standards. Um it currently was, they left it as it is. Okay. >> Based on citywide standards. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And then also if you recall um I know we had discussions city council I thought had approved sound mitigation blankets at one time. Is that accurate or do I misremember that? >> Yeah. So when we initially presented it uh we did have one council member that added that in there at the discretion of the city administrator and so later on that city administrator did not uh enforce that. >> Oh okay. I do have a couple questions. Um, being that I was not here for for much of this, can you just walk me through this? I have two process questions. How were individuals that spoke tonight? Were they notified? Can you explain how they got the information? I heard some say they got it late. Can you let me know? Is it word of mouth looking at the agenda? Did they know this topic was on the agenda? Can you just walk me through that a little bit? >> Yeah. So, uh, communities were not notified like directly that what the agenda is. This is just posted at when it's posted, uh, on the city website. So, that's their notification of that. >> Okay. Um, and then my second question, um, and this is kind of going back, what has been the general process when these pickle ball ball courts were put in at these parks in terms of, um, neighborhood engagement, feedback, opportunity to provide feedback, um, those type of things. How what what's been the process for that? So, we um back in probably 2022, we started a survey of Deontraville, Pebble, Tablin. Someone reminded me of the fourth one. Um >> Reed, >> yeah, we did four parks right out the go. Um and it was one of those one of and bunch of the surveys had uh questions in regards to the conditions of equipment, uh the courts, uh whatever that park may have. And so, uh, the results of those surveys, which was pretty minimal at that time. So, this is a community survey that was posted, um, just on our website, um, in all the parks, uh, just through a QR code that they could answer. So, it was open to anybody that was using the park to answer the survey. We did get a whole lot of results from that survey, you know, as far as individual parks, but um a lot of it was in regards to replacement of the playgrounds, conditions of the courts, what they would like to, you know, should we remove them or, you know, return back to pickle ball with a combination of tennis. Um uh at that time that I can remember, both courts were, uh continue with tennis with recommendation of pickle ball included. >> Okay. Um my last question is is most are we renting these courts or is the use predominantly just open play or are there groups renting it um for certain periods of the day or evening? >> So three of our courts uh Pebble Table and Lions Park are reservable. So uh two months ago we went through the reservation policy and may you Yeah. So we went through the reservation policy. So those are reservable. Ivywood is not reservable. So that's just open to the public. Anybody can show up at any time to engage in a game. So as noted by the public, the hours of those are 8 to 10 o'clock uh at the lighted one. Uh Table is the same hours. It's just that they're probably limited because there's no lights there. So we probably get more reservations at Pebble and Lions than we do the other two than than we do Tableau. So Um, I've got a question for you, Adam. Um, can you speak a little bit about the, uh, if you have any extra information about the lighting and maybe some, you know, breaking in periods with the timing or anything like that? >> Yeah. So, um, during reconstruction, we did redo the lights there to LED lights versus, um, >> fluorescent or hogen >> the hallogen lights, right? So um and the purpose of that was just because of the cost of the lights um what they were used for energy plus we got energy savings in doing so. >> Um the light the timer it is an electronic timer that was set for that's currently set from like 5 to 10 p.m. Correct. So we did have outages which does screw up with that timer to um offset that. So that's why we did have those issues before. Um we did have staff correct that and they were wrong. Honestly they were wrong. So the next day they did come back on at 1:00 am. Um and so yes, we do definitely apologize for those issues and she was exactly correct. Um so I think that happened I I would probably stem it a little longer maybe exaggerating a little bit but it might have been a a week between you know probably end up over a weekend things like that to in order to um to correct that issue. So um there is a battery in there now that we can replace to make sure that's that doesn't happen. So >> okay. So, like any run-of-the-mill power outage now should not necessarily affect those lights because there's a battery in there. Okay. you're still >> um the uh option number one, the city staff consider that option to be going forward for um moving them within outside of 600 feet or immediate well maybe not immediately but closing them down. So uh yeah so our recommendation when you know the recommend national park and racks and our ma parks master plan initiate 600 feet. So that's what we should follow right uh as far as recommendation one would be to make that recommendation and we would we would remove the the nets from all pickle ball courts until uh we find a site that's suitable to meet that. >> Okay. Thank you. Do we know of any pickle ball courts in other communities that have had issues near us that have used some sort of noise reducing blanket or something else? Do we have any other situations? We >> as far as local communities, I did not research that that to be honest with you. Who else is doing that? you know, it is there there's a number of articles out there where it does it does talk about um the noise issue, the distances, the um you know, and of course there's vendors that provide solutions, right? Or you know, offer solutions. So um in Florida, there's a number of areas that you know, if it's anywhere, that's what they use is the sound mitigating blankets, right? >> Um to reach out with them, you know, >> would be the next thing to do to see if it's actually um if it's actually working. >> There is one court in Still Water that has um they say it's a sound barrier, but it's it's a a poor wind barrier actually. >> Um I don't think it's just on one wall. And um I I don't see how it's helpful at all. At least the one that they use there. Yeah, they tend to have very mixed results in use. So, I'm not sure it's a longstanding solution. >> There was three options that were provided initially with the uh with the pickleball courts. Um, and regards to price, right? So, I think what um Commissioner Paper's talking about is just more of a wind and maybe a you know, a visible like you might see at a tennis court or like even a baseball field, right? So, it is more you know, you can put your emblem on and things like that. It's more of just a visual thing, right? The next one was more of a plastic barrier, a little more expensive. Um, effectiveness, not 100%. We didn't have great, there wasn't great feedback or results from that. The only the next option was the was the generator blankets or the blankets to mitigate noise. Um just to follow up on that. So the parks master plan um you know one thing that it also mentions is that there's a 50% noise reduction with appropriate equipment. Um potential we don't have any insight into that or if we do do >> say that again. What's the question? Um in the yeah in the parks master plan they mentioned that there with appropriate equipment um there can be up to a 50% noise reduction. We don't have any details on that though do we? >> I do not. >> Okay. >> I think that this is something that we can't decide at one meeting. Um, I know that there are uh a number of cities um that have um a pickle pickle ball park that will have like in Arizona and Florida and actually in the Twin Cities, there's a couple suburbs that have a park with 16 or more courts. I don't know if they're 600 feet away from the nearest house, but all the pickle ball courts of that city are in one location. Um, and that's that's a really nice setup, but that again would be a major purchase like we went through with finding the ball fields um for our city. So, I I think perhaps we can look at short term. I know the neighbors probably wouldn't be happy that it's not going to be immediate, but I I think it's ideally we could look at things that we can do now like have a shorter time period, maybe have shorter time hours rather for playing pickle ball. Um there's the issue with enforcement, but I think most pickle ball players will follow the rules. Still Water has just changed their pickle ball systems and now they have a large I wish I had taken a picture of it. They have large signs with rules, guidelines about being polite, you know, being neighborly. Uh the process of waiting for other people to play so you don't get the whole court for the whole time. If there's people waiting, you need to uh take turns going in and out. And I know that it's not going to help for everybody to follow those rules, but I think most people are good people and will follow that, especially if they're aware of how it affects other people in the neighborhood. So, I think I would like to start something sooner than later because we have a lot of people who are concerned about it. I'm an avid pickball player myself and I I know what you're talking about, but I I don't think we can close them all down and we and yet we can't jump to the best solution right now. regarding t time and and cost and so forth, but I I think we should start with like the light timer and um I don't know if they can move the practice board to the other side. I think there's additional space where the practice board is at Pebble Park, but I think we should uh work together to find some small steps that we could start now to appease the neighbors. >> Do we have any other questions for Adam? Um, I have a possible recommendation or not recommendation, but um, for the light problem, we could install some sort of like cone where it like based off these photos, it looks like the top of the trees are getting hit by the light. And I think if we installed some sort of cone thing that would actually like focus the light more onto the courts instead of all over, I think that could definitely solve much of the light pollution. >> Um, I guess I have one more question for you, Adam, and then it sounds like we need a motion >> as well. >> A couple more questions. Okay. Um, so my question for you, Adam, is I know that we've like you've been really great at being opportunistic about when there's opportunities to plant some new trees in parks. Um, have any new trees been planted in the past year or so at either Ivywood or Pebble Park near this pickle ball? >> Yeah, Ivywood, Pebble, and Tableau have received trees in the last year. Okay. um you know, as far as borders and things like that, that does come into play, placement form. Um so, in regards to um one neighbor, they they were not placed in that directional line on that on that on that side of the fence. They were placed on the other side of the pickle ball courts. >> Okay. >> Uh Peter. >> Yeah. I um No, that's okay. I'll skip it. >> Okay. Any other questions for Adam? >> I'm not sure how enforceable this would be either, but but for the reservable courts, I mean, you know, who's reserving the courts, if there is a complaint at a certain time or a certain consistent, like if it's a group that's playing and there's consistently complaints. I mean, I'm just wondering if we know the people that are reserving them at specific times, if there's anything that could be done for those people, like if we have signs and guidelines, if there are people who aren't following them, you know, is there something we could do as far as a reservation? So >> just a thought >> or or reduce the number of I mean an option would be to reduce the number of rentals >> and just the like we talked about with the time as well. >> Yeah. >> In in the short term until we can have more discussion about other other opportunities and solutions. >> Yeah. Um, do we have any other questions for Adam? Or else maybe we'll take a motion so we can have some more discussion as commissioners. Okay. Um, could I have a motion? Does anyone want to propose a motion? >> I'll propose a motion. I move that we adjust playing hours to allow more quiet time early in the morning and late evenings. >> Do we have a second? I'll second that. >> Um discussion. Um I Yeah. Okay. I'll I'll kick us off with the discussion here. I think that um the hours seem really actionable today. Um, I think that lights on until 1000 p.m. like that seems like a pretty lowhanging fruit to adjust in my opinion. Um, you know, I think that 9 would be much more reasonable. Um, or even if there needs to be flexibility there like an hour after sunset. Um, I also think that it seems um prudent to think about tableabling this um and recommending to staff that we talk about this in more detail in the coming months um thinking of a longer term solution potentially. Um yeah, >> I I I'm in favor. I think I think Lil hanging fruit is a good way to put it as far as the time. I've long thought that P um that Pebbles um time there's only a couple other parks, maybe one other park that has that time past sunrise and sunset. I know that's probably not sufficient to some of the folks here, but it's at least in line with the rest of our parks. Sun sunrise to sunset. That seems to make a lot of sense. I don't know why those lights existed um you know at that specific park whereas the vast majority I guess um lions we'd have lights but the rest of them we don't. Um so I'd like to see that in line at a minimum. I also will just step back a little bit and say I really do empathize with what I'm hearing today. I I know how s sound can be intrusive. I get that. Um, I'm also, you've heard me say before, at sometimes when we have some of these problems where it's people having fun, I have a hard time I I have to balance those two. Um, that's part of our job. So, I think, as you said, I think we can come up with some some compromises here. The light being one of them. I do think it's worthwhile exploring and we had that discussion previously because I believe that we needed to consider sound mitigation barriers. I think there are some and I think what you were referencing in that manual is there's a balls at a minimum if not paddles, excuse me, um that reduce noise. I don't know if they work. >> Okay. >> But it's something that we could certainly explore. And that I mean that maybe speaks to tableabling it. Um maybe not. But but that is a a potential compromise and and solution to this. As far as um you know people carrying on I the swearing and so forth. I I've played there um many times. I haven't experienced it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I I personally haven't experienced that. It's not me doing it. I promise. Um, but that's that's a yeah, I guess I I don't know what we do do about that. You can post all the regulations you want to say be nice and not swear and so forth and people tend to still do it. But that's my as far as Pebble, I think Pebble, sorry, Pebble Park. We I'm I'm focusing on that because not just because most of the people are from there, but I do think it's probably the most problematic. Ivywood, I hear the complaint about the parking. I do I think the previous discussion around parking limiting to one side. Uh I'm not sure why that was tabled or why that was voted down to me that there are exceptions to why you don't park on both sides of the the street in various locations around the city whether it's around the lakes with the postings for no parking trailers or whatever it is no parking areas that's certainly a viable solution that I would like us to see recommending to to council for Ivywood in specific um especially for for safety reasons. Sorry that was kind of long. >> Um I'll also just put it out there that um I received some emails. I don't know if other folks did um as well. Uh Hank forwarded them on to me, but um some residents had reached out um just saying that they enjoyed the pickle ball and didn't and lived nearby and didn't have big issues. Um, so I know that there's, you know, there is a wide range of experiences here, right? You know, people might not be home all the time. Um, people might have different, you know, just different experiences. So that's that is real here. >> Staff would concur with um, Commissioner Peter's recommendation, too, that if you're going to adjust time uh, to just completely turn off the lights to mitigate the issue. So, of course, as we go into the fall, those times get shorter. Um, those summers you might be, you know, you're still restricting that time to approximately nine o'clock without those lights, but as we go to the fall, that time >> becomes a lot shorter. Mhm. >> I think especially as we enter winter and there's a lot less pickle ball being played, I think that gives us a lot more time to figure out a more long-term solution to this as well. So, I think there's no reason to rush anything or do anything irrational. >> Yep, I agree. I mean I I like the multi- sort of phased approach where we can do something in the short term but then look as we move forward as longer term solutions. >> Yeah. I also think that um looking into the reservation policy with the sportsmanship um conduct if there's a you know refundable portion for courts. Um, and I know that gets a little bit more challenging if only a portion of the courts are reservable. Um, you know, then there's less accountability. Um, but we have not, you know, that's still an active thing I think that we could play with potentially. I think I what one thing I just sort of um highlight from my perspective again is that uh lights sound mitigation are are temporary compromises. I do think that by the next time it comes around for resurfacing, uh, we do consider closing them. And I I don't know. Uh, it seems to me that, uh, tennis is more palatable to people. I guess I don't know that for certain, but maybe we resurface them for and re re uh, net them for, uh, at least Pebble again for tennis when we resurface. I'm not in favor of closing them down now. Um that to me went now that we've made that investment that seems like that would be irrational. >> I believe the national um parks rec distance for tennis is the same. >> Is it really? >> Okay. >> Very close. Uh, can I ask a quick question? As far as um staff looked into any parks where we would be able to work outside of that 600 ft. Are there locations where this could work? >> So, um, the only the only site at this time would be the new um, uh, 120 acres or >> that's it. That across the board parks we would not have pickle ball or tennis. Correct. uh with the discussion of that being placed at Ridge Park, uh those it would not fit in there either. >> Okay. Other discussion? >> Oh, I'll just I'll just say I'm in in favor of uh or not in favor of the current motion. I think we should strengthen a little bit. Um, would you like to propose an amendment then? >> I wouldn't do an amendment. I would I would I would just I would vote no on the current. >> Can I remove my motion? Would that make it cleaner and you redo another one? >> Um, yeah. You can make a motion to remove the current. >> Okay. Are you okay with that, Peter? You want to start fresh? >> It's your motion. I move to uh drop my initial motion. >> I'll second that. >> All in favor? >> I. Any oppose? Okay. Motion carried. Um is there a motion for another or a movement for another motion? I would make a motion for pickle ball hours. Now, let's start. I'd make a motion for our park hours at Pebble to be in line with the rest sunrise to sunset and recommend that city staff explore um noise mitigation including noise reducing blankets as well as equipment. and then report back with findings before we make any further recommendations to city council with. Sorry, this is this is still going. Oh. Uh, Ivy would recommend parking on one side of the street around the park. That's a pretty lengthy motion. I apologize. Okay. So, right now we have a motion to adjust park hours at Pebble from sunrise to sunset, limit Ivywood parking to one side of the street, and recommend that city staff explore noise mitigation, including noise blankets and equipment, and report back on findings before um making further recommendations to the city council. Um, can I have a second? >> I'll second that. um discussion on this current motion. >> I'll start. Go ahead. So, so where does that leave us looking a little bit more longterm and asking staff to explore what that may look like, whether that means a new facility, whether that means in the future as we change parks or renovate parks. I I think there needs to be some I'd like to see some longer term study on and discussion around what we do with just overall you you know you talked about you know you don't want to close them down but is that is that an option? Do they get repurposed? I know that was mentioned as well. Um so I think there's a little bit I just want to make sure that that doesn't get lost with just us focusing on kind of the shortterm solutions. So, so Peter, currently we I'm sorry, Adam, we have 16 pickle ball courts citywide, correct? Okay. So, maybe we should um ask them to look for needed parameters if we had somewhere with one site with 16 pickle ball courts. What would be the parks board's suggestion? U is that something realistic that we could do in Lake Elmo? That would be a longer term thing, you know, if we knew what the parameters were for either eight courts or 16 courts or whatever. Then we could look ahead since none of these are in compliance after the fact. >> Do we want to look that far out? Is that what you're saying, Tracy? Yeah, because there there's going to be an opportunity where we might have another park that comes before us that does want pickle ball and we're going to run into the same issue. And it these are all neighborhood parks and clearly that seems to be problematic with pickle ball. Now, in some communities, it probably works out fine, but >> I I just would like us to talk about longer term and maybe a 16 complex isn't possible, but I think we should explore it and then I think we should look at if that's not viable, then what's the what are some other options to pursue, but I think we have to look at the whole picture. >> Yeah. Um, I guess I'll just add to this discussion. The parks master plan did do some pretty you know, comprehensive engagement and pickle ball. What like there were a lot of comments on needing more pickle ball courts. Um, of course that is, you know, the these courts were actively being um resurfaced when I think those the requests for comments went out. Um, but you know, we shouldn't forget that we have that resource and the findings and that report as well. Yeah, Tracy, I guess from my perspective, I was just making the motion on what what's currently in front of us knowing that if we have future request or future parks coming in that we're going to be able to rely on that 600 foot I'm certain we would follow that guideline. These were all before that guideline existed. Well, maybe not before the guideline existed, but before we had the report anyway. Um, so going forward, I would I don't know that we need a special study to determine I think we would follow those guidelines as far as what we where they go. Yeah, I I hear I hear what you're saying. What what we need to do um long term. I don't know that we need to decide that tonight, but maybe maybe we do. Mhm. >> No, I don't think I just don't want that to get, you know, we focus on a, you know, a parks brought before us to resurface and we just automatically go and do that or, you know, so we're thinking a little bit more broadly. >> Yeah, I hear you. >> Um, other discussion the current motion. >> Yeah. Again, city council is looking for a recommendation. So, the only second part of the recommendation is for uh staff to to um revisit with other options. I think we have a direct um recommendation now with like possibly a second motion for additional um additional research. >> Okay. Um, I'll make a motion then to um >> Pet already has a motion. >> Oh, right. Um, I'd like to propose an amendment to the current motion then um to to split the current motion um or I guess we have to take it off the table first. Okay. Do we have further discussion on this current motion to adjust the park hours at Pebble from Sunrise to Sunset, limit Ivywood parking to one side of the street, and recommend that city staff explore other options including noise mitigation, um blankets and equipment, and report back on the findings before making further recommendations to council. and asked that if you're gonna >> um the light issue with if you're just going to do published. >> Okay. Thanks for that clarification. >> Okay. I'd like to um make a motion to amend the current motion to um adjust the park hours at Pebble and Lions from or to um Okay, cl a clarify question, Adam. Um what are the current hours at Lions Park? And um do you have staff received noise complaints about any other sports that or you know gatherings that go on past? >> Um >> uh we have received complaints this year in regards to baseball. Just um they do have a time frame in regards to when those lights can need to be turned off after a ball game. Okay. And this year, uh, we did have a number of complaints in regards to, um, baseball teams not complying with that, um, playing after games, lights remaining on till way past way into the evening hours. So, um, so yes. >> Okay. >> I I have a clarifying crush question because at night in the winter, the skating rinks are open past dark. So I don't know that we can make a blanket statement about sunrise to sunset. >> Overall for all parks >> I support that. So perhaps we would drop the part that says keeping it in line with other parks and just say sunrise to sunset at pickle ball courts at at the two parks with lighted courts. >> Okay. So sure. Would you like to propose that amendment? >> I don't have all the wording. >> Okay, I can do it. Okay. I'd like to move to amend the current motion to adjust the park hours at Pebble Park and Lions Park for pickle ball to be sunrise to sunset without uh lights. Do I have a second? I'll second it. Okay. So, on the floor right now, we have the um the motion for the amendment to adjust park hours for pickle ball at Pebble and Lions Park from sunrise to sunset without lights. Um, any discussion on that? >> Yes. Now that I'm thinking about it more, a sunrise can be five o'clock in the morning. Do we want to have it start later? You know, like 8. >> That seems super reasonable. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think I I support that. Um, I feel like I'm I don't have enough information on a start time though. >> Is it a question? Is it currently 8:00? Is that what it is on reservation? >> A reservation start at 8. Yes. >> Okay. But people other people can show up. I think John said some people show up at 7 7:30. >> Okay. So, we can set it like 8 o'clock like the reservations. There's no one there to enforce it, but >> And those are the rentals that are starting at 8. >> The reservations, >> those are the reservations. >> So, can we just not do reservations starting at 8, >> but there's there's people other than >> Right. Right. It's open to the the public. I get that. >> I mean, the same group can show up even if their reservation doesn't start till 9:00. They can all be there at 8. I >> think you're going to have a hard time saying that parts of the park is open and >> pickle ball is not I'm in favor of a standard sunrise to sunset. I realize again that's not going to solve the problem um to people that have that issue. Uh that's not that's not going to be sufficient, but it is a step in the right direction. until we can figure out long term and consistency matters. We can't we can't just carve out a pickle ball time and have another park time. I think that's where it would be good for staff to re because there's a many communities, you know, to find out what other communities are doing because we're not the only community that has struggled with this. Maple Grove was in the paper for this. Woodbury a few years ago had a major problem with their leagues at a neighborhood park. So, I think we could gain some insight on maybe what has worked in other communities. Not saying that it would work here or we could tweak it, but I think there's some information that we could gather as well as information from cities that have used or not used sound barriers and the blankets because there are ones that have been installed in some communities that have worked and some that have not. So, but you're right. We have to start somewhere and I think just show some progress and and try to provide some short-term path forward as best as we can until we can figure out and have more information on longer plans. Perhaps we should stick with the sunrise to sunset for now and hopefully by spring we would have something in place >> or the reservation policy could um provide more clarity into that aspect. Um you've got something to say to us, Adam, but I have a question for you. Um, do we have the authority to recommend to city council um about parking recommendations um or is this something that uh would be better um approached with uh you know like a staff um going out there and getting some more detail on how the road width compares to various safety standards and such. >> You know, at this point, it'd probably be um back to the community member to ask, you know, um go back and and ask that question again. I you I don't recall what that community, who that community started as, who that community member started his conversation with. Um but it did go through our fire department, our public works director, um our engineer as far as how that road was built, what it was intended to be for, and that's why that recommendation was made by city counc. >> Okay. So, you know, if it's like an appeal of that decision, they could definitely rate that to the city administrator or that' be my suggestion. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Could you read us the motion back because we have that still, right? >> We do. So, the motion right now is to adjust park hours for pickle ball at Pebble and Lions Park from sunrise to sunset with no lights, limit Ivywood parking to one side of the street, and recommend that city staff explore noise mitigation, including noise blankets and equipment, and report back on findings before making further recommendations. Um well, any other discussion right now? Motions for amendments. All right, I'll call the question then. All in favor? >> I >> I >> Any oppose? Okay, motion carries. Item two on the agenda today is the Lion's Park playground replacement. Thanks everyone. >> So again, Lion, we reviewed this last month, but the Lions Park playground was initially installed in 2000 and has currently surpassed its lifespan and is slated for future replacement as discussed in the in 2024 and 2025 capital improvement plans. Lion's Playground is currently uh scheduled to be replaced next year, 2026. In your packet, I did provide uh five options. Um we'll go through those options again. Uh my options here, I can bring up individual all all five options as I go through these. Um all these are just uh discussing them individually. So um but if you'd like more detail on on anything, uh please let me know. So, option number one, um, just I'm just going to back up here just a second. Uh, and just a reminder, in our July meeting, we did discuss um moving forward with the with the replacement to including um it to serve kids ages 5 to 12, incorporating active play, adding benches, and offering items that would um actually um continue and be suitable for teenagers to use as well. So again, option one offers a single tower structure with three slides and additional structures attached by means of a cargo net. The second structure also provides a sliding option with a shade canopy uh in addition to a merrygoround. The topsy spinner and a swing u with six seating options. The area is expanded uh into to incorporate additional equipment including a flex swing, a rap city vibr chimes. This option provides uh poured in place rubber surfacing which is approximately 2300 square feet allowing uh access to equipment and swings for those with disabilities. The remaining area is filled with uh safety wood chips. Um in those pictures the brown area again is safety wood chips and the green area is the ported place. Total equipment cost for this is about 176,000 uh with a total price of 298,000. Do you want to ask questions in between these or do you just want to go through all three? >> Well, you have the picture up. Can I ask a question? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, is the topsy turning turny spinner on the right side with two kids on and one next to it? see on the far right side. >> So, this item over here is your >> That's the topsy tornado. Okay. >> So, yeah. >> Does this have something that would be specifically for older kids? So um included in this is um more like the uh let's see where we >> the so a lot of times uh these these types of swings are more lounging and so that's what we find that our teens are doing now that was per that was portrayed as just that lounging effort but as well as I believe there uh in this one too is like a pull-up exercise bar so um where exactly that is >> so you can lounge or do pull-ups. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. All right. Thank you, Adam. >> If you want more realistic photos of any of these objects, I do have I do have them available. >> So, again, our sensory um items would be these chimes. Again, there's like a small mallet that is um tied to there or they make >> uh music. So, it's three different uh heights. Um and those thing in the So, I'm gonna skip that. [Music] >> Yeah, that's what it does. But, um so that's just an example of those. These are the same same thing. It's more auditorial. It's like drum. Uh there is some handles and stuff that are available for those as well. So this one, yes, it probably be more your limited options. One and two are going to be more your limited on that teenage teenagers. >> Thank you. Option two offers a double tower and two slides connected with a flex climber. The additional folio balance climber and fox stand serve as a continued place to hang out and explore. A seessaw and two spin uh two saddle spinners are offset from the merrygo round. This option offers a swing with six options as well as two zip lines. This playset does offer many uh ADA components including adaptable swings, port and place rubber surfacing. Again, the total equipment cost for this option is approximately 192,000 uh for a total cost of 297,000. Again, these uh Foxen um seats that were pretty seeing there, again, those are um are noted as a very as very attractable with our um with our teenage groups, right? Um definitely just again sitting probably using a a phone device, right? But um but very very user friendly for that. This one does have the the the monkey bars as well that would attract them as well as that cargo net likely to be utilized by that teenage group. Um the port in place again in this option is around those adaptive areas that one could utilize um that might be um you know more towards someone that in a wheelchair or might have um less mobility. Uh that's where that ported place comes into play. Again on the far left I don't know which picture you're looking at. There is a um you're looking at the PowerPoint correct? On the far right there is like what looks like a tic tac board kind of that is like um it is for sensory. Again, it kind of gives uh kids or students uh ability to utilize the playground at its fullest. You know, how do you um how do you get from one place to the next? It's kind of like an an ability chart. um being able to utilize that as kind of a a maze type situation, but also just a a way from getting what to from one thing to the next um and different avenues with that as well. Option three, also provided by Flagship, oops, offers a double tower with two slides. The slide being approximately 12 feet tall. Both towers are connected by the means of an elevated tunnel. This structure offers a number of climbing options access to the tower in additional to separate to a separate forge climber. A zipline, six swings, and multiple spinners add play features for active kids while the fox den again provides a place for users to lay and relax. Several sensory fe features are also incorporated throughout the site as well. Four benches are installed throughout the area for additional seating for parents, visitors. Again, a total equipment cost for this one is approximately 223,000 for a total price around 298,000. >> Could you advance to that picture, please? >> Could you Oh, sorry. You guys can't see it. You see it now? >> No. No. It's kind of Is it up on your your screen? >> It's up on my screen, but not Do you know where present is? >> Um, I was in the PowerPoint there. That's >> Yep. There we go. Um, again with this one, just a couple um additional features with our our teenagers would probably be um would be your uh it's a type of pull-up bar, but it's kind of like Uh, it's kind of like your ninja warrior where those things move. So, it's kind of like a bicycle in the air, uh, but with hands, right? You do have your pull-up bar. You do have your net cargo as well as your zipline and our fox den um, incorporating over there as well. Option four, similar similar to option three with a tower structure and slides. Actually, the tower is uh very similar and I think um just a different color option in this which we can change at any time. Um this option offers a separate crab tree climbing structure which has multiple access point challenges. The structure is ADA compliant and has multiple climbing routes. Additional music chimes offers a means of sensory play while seesaw, a topsy spinner, and a six seat swing offer means of active play. Three benches were installed around the play structure in this portion uh in this option for parents of visitors. The total equipment cost for this is 238,000 with a total price of around 315,000. So, probably our most expensive um option. Um this structure here alone uh offers, you know, uh it can hold up to like 60some kids at one time. So, it does offer um almost a playground in itself, right? Our our structure up here has a height level of about or a play level of about 12 feet. Um does offer a number of slides. Again, very similar to option two in that in that realm. or sorry three our top C spinner as well as our you know our seessaw um number of swings again adaptable swings uh similar to what we have in a number of our parks as well a child swing on the end uh probably the only thing that we would change is maybe moving that child swing next to um our regular swings but we find a question from a lot of our parents is like if they have a toddler, they have a two-year-old, too, who wants attention. And so having being so far a distance, they can't push them both. So that'd be my only recommendation to this uh this design is um user efforts to try to put those together. Again, the the that bar is lower for the means of like the the hitting distance of of that toddler swing isn't going to be as much. So you wouldn't be able to put anything out there just because of that um that area, that zone. um of that fall area as well. So, our supplier on this didn't note, you know, this is all wood chips on here. Uh recommendation instead of poured in place on certain areas like end slides under swings. A cheaper roll with that would be just the rubber mats. Uh rubber mats are approximately $200 uh that you'd put under each individual swing. Uh they'd be less for just because of the distance under the slides. Um and those are those wear areas where those chips move a lot or get kicked around. So that is their recommendation with that uh just because of the high cost of of that port in place for those specific areas. Um a lot of time port in place does have a direction. Um so just individually putting it under items does it help with the you know the ability to get somewhere. Right. So >> so Adam I have a question. So the crab walk that structure on the left >> yep >> it's ADA compliant but there's wood chips underneath. So would you do a sidewalk that would lead up to this right by that so it's more accessible to people? >> Um you you could the wood chips are ADA compliant as well. So um you know the port in place is probably more um user friendly for somebody that might be restricted to a wheelchair or some a mobility device that you know had to get through that. But wood chips do meet uh standards by the National Park and Rex Association for ADA complaints. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Think it did have a Oops. Oops. Just wanted to show you a live picture of that crap. So again, this one can't see it. Sorry. Okay. And then option five. Option five is offered by St. Croy Recreational. This is a 24 foot high double tower with seven slides. The towers are connected by the means of an elevated rope tunnel. Uh that rope tunnel tunnel is very similar to what we put at Pebble Park. So that netting in there uh very similar sol not solid structure but has some mobility and movement but tied and connected with the same material that we have at uh a four placement swing uh swing set fits into the current swing location and offers a child swing and adaptive swing for users. Multiple access points to the structure offers means of active play and a maze option. Equipment cost for this option is about 227,000 with the total cost right there around 300,000. Um, again with this one, the active teens, again, we're looking at likely the swing set. You know, you do have the pull-up bars. Um, kind of a a thing on this side as well, just a climbing structure. Uh, again, probably not a lot of teenage things on this one, but an option provided by a different source. So, um I think the the structural height with the swings um definitely attracts them and definitely they'll try it, right? So, they'll be up there. So, um at our national night out event, public works did survey families that attended the national event, uh visitors were able to see all five options and they voted in their favorite playset. Uh we had nearly 120 votes uh from that evening. Option three was the most popular followed by options two and number five. And just let me just indicate like the voting was very close. Like we had 29 votes for number three. Um number number two and number five came in at 26 27 um with 25 at number four with number one coming in with probably the least at um number with 11 votes. So we're all right in there that 25 or 27 to 29 votes. So to pick or choose I mean you're it's one or two votes, right? So um but very popular. We had a lot of people stop by. a lot of great comments. Um, you know, some of the dads were like, I got to go up there right now to get my kid, you know, so just things like that. But all everybody great information. Um, I think everyone's excited for something new down there. Um, so our fiscal impact was outlined in our 2026 through 2035 capital improvement plan. Uh, the items are funded through the parks dedication fund while operations and maintenance are funded through the public works department. Um, so after maintenance of this park, that's where that would come through. The current CIP has $300,000 allotted for the replacement of the Lions Park playground set. Our uh flagship did offer me a a port in place option for option number three. If you were to do the whole thing, it does increase the price about 110,000. So you're looking at about a 400 um, you know, I could probably get the exact number, but you're you're looking at over $400,000 to do a port in place for the whole um that whole uh square footage area. Now, they've expanded that square footage area. If you look at the uh in your packet of those pictures, they have expanded that from what it currently is. I know one of the recommendations is try to keep that in there so you didn't have to do the extra concrete work. They have expanded it a little bit just so uh that they could fit what we've asked in there. plus a little more. And you'll see like through their through their um the items that they have in there, they have included additional items there, literally probably at little or no cost. And it kind of really does offset that that cost for that concrete that you're you're initiating in there. So, if it's $35,000 in concrete, there's probably $35,000 worth of extra amenities in there if it'd be benches or uh you know, a spinner or something on that nature added in there just because of that square footage as well. Um, if we do pick one of those options, we do have to work with that vendor as far as placement. Uh, if anyone's looked at our our, uh, Washington County plat on that, we the the structural lines of that are really skewed. So, um, the current playground set does go into the neighboring property right now. So expanding that in there probably isn't an option unless there's variance um and easement for the city to to build in there, right? So um we would have to work with them in order to make that happen. Um not only the builders but our but our vendor as well or builders or the property owners as well as our our vendor well as well. Um just talking with them, we could move closer to the pickle ball or the um we do have extra room in there where that fountain and where that um merry goround was to expand that in the other direction as well. With that, I'll take any questions or recommendation. Um again, our recommendation is going to city council for to purchase and install a new playground set at Lions Park. Um and not my recommendation would be not exceed our current price. >> So, of those, option four was over 300,000. The rest were not. Is that right? >> Correct. Option four was at about 315,000. >> Okay. >> You know, that did have that whole another structure that a lot of parks would that be like the centerpiece, right? So you are adding two big um two big features there uh with that option. Um this question just came to me Adam um and I recognize that a little more sensitive to this right now tonight. Um but do you know have any for those musical sensory features? Um I mean when I have seen them and played with them like I've really enjoyed them but do you know are there like uh are are people sensitive to that? Like neighbors do we know how far that noise carries? Anything like that? >> If you want I could play it again. I don't know if you heard it the first time. Uh of what um >> kind of like windchimes. >> Yeah, they're kind of more of like a windchime, right? Um with >> with that. So I there wasn't any discussion in regards to that with the with the vendor with regards to any complaints or issues with that, but okay. >> I would not think it's any louder than than kid noise. >> Okay. So given option four is over 300,000, I mean would they be completely off the table or like how do we would we go if we wanted to choose that one to recommend would we go back to them and >> No, you're just going over your CIP allotted amount. So you initially we put $300,000 in the CIP for that. We do have money in our parks dedication fund. I didn't bring our balance with us tonight, >> but uh there is funds in there. Um I think um correct me if I'm wrong um but I think you're in um Clyice I think we increased the value of that. I think it was initially at 150,000 and I think we went up to quote me with the trail and everything I think maybe 200,000 or something. >> Okay. >> So um we could exceed that knowing that there's money there. Um we just need to be fiscally responsible. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I like options three and four. four is only 11,000 more for parts, but um about 17,000 more for install. Um I I think it I don't know. It seems like it's worth the money to go to option four >> if you're comparing those two. >> Yeah. Well, I like that option four is ADA compliant, too. >> And both three and four have benches, which I think is a nice >> amenity to have. >> Questions. Um, people were asking on these tower structures if So, the tower structure itself is metal, right? Um these these colorcoded areas are um a metal um component as well. >> Um the Lego Mo Park Reserve just opened a new playground structure that has that exact style. Yeah. >> Like everywhere. And um >> I mean >> I don't think we could really replic like it seems like it's probably twice as big as something that we're looking at here just because of space constraints. So, you know, I know we like our parks to be distinctive and that that might not be it right now. >> Um, do we have a motion someone wants to propose? or other discussion. Do people We can just open the floor for discussion. >> Can you bring three up again? >> Yeah, I was going to say, can I see three again? I think I had a picture of that. These are a sensory thing as well. They turn, but it's also kind of like a >> Oh, it's got a ball in there. >> Yep. You move things around inside. Is option three the only one with the zip line? >> Option two had one compliant one see the other one as well. >> That tower on three seems a little more open than the one on four. But maybe I'm just imagining. Maybe I'm just imagining in it. um that crab trap, is that a relatively new thing um that's out there or is it just you know something that we haven't seen before? Um I don't recall her saying like um or a vendor sorry saying when they initially came out with that. I think you look at some of those materials as far as that cable and netting those are all probably fairly new within like the last five seven years. Again they do numerous testings and have testing sites where they do a lot of these things. So you know to say that that that style and that you know architecture of what that is it's probably been in the market for yeah five to seven years or something like that. It's probably just really You're probably really just starting to see it. >> My school added one about three years ago. >> Okay. >> Did you test it? >> Oh, very fun. I do recommend it. >> Okay. >> Personal experience. >> I think um I think no matter which park we pick, little kids are and everyone's basically going to use it and try it out. I think really for the teenage thing, I do think that the physical equipment is definitely it's going to attract them because they're going to be like, "Oh, I can definitely do more pull-ups in you or something like that and ego, whatever." But I don't think it can really retain people at the park very long. I think after a baseball game, kids might go over and be like, "Let's play on this pull-up bar for some time." But then after a while, I think what you were saying earlier about how like the building's taller, so it kind of like it's got like the sparkly aspect to it. I think that'd be better for like retaining older people at the park. Like there's almost like a challenge to the park >> with the height. Is that the makings of a motion or have anyone else that has questions or wants to make a motion? Um, I'll make a motion. I move to recommend to city council the request to purchase and install a new playground set at Lions Park and to recommend option 4 not to exceed $315,400.39. [Music] Do I need to be that precise? Did I >> I would probably just recommend like 317,000. >> Okay. Uh I'll amend that then. Not to exceed 37. >> It said 17 on the basis of maybe we, you know, uh option one has a shade structure on top, right? Uh this one doesn't. So we'd probably promote to plant some trees, um update the terrain tower because it is a little bit bigger. just those small utility items that do come into play. Um, our parking lot will be is a whole different CIP item. So, you know, trail access and all that can come with that, but just I think two in within $2,000 we can do some of the landscaping stuff that might come um after installation. >> Okay, >> we have a second. >> I'll second it. >> Any other discussion? I think the crab trap looks really cool. Um I think that would set it apart, you know. >> Yeah. >> Okay, I'll call the question then. Um, the motion on the floor is to move to recommend to city council the request to purchase and install a new playground set at Lions Park and to recommend option number four not to exceed $317,000. All in favor? >> I >> I. >> Any oppose? >> All right. Motion carries. I think when you talk with this company once it whatever company has chosen Adam we should see if we could be a test park for them since they are both such local companies. I think that would be neat for like see like Elmo. >> Oh yeah. >> They had cool equipment out at National Night Out too. >> Oh >> we brought them stuff. >> Oh cool. >> Next agenda item is the parks service level discussion. Okay. Back in May, I presented uh with with the commissioners in regards to u what was presented in our 2024 uh parks master plan. One of the first priorities in there was to add a parks director position to the public works department as part of our 20202 work plan. The parks commission added as an item to review and implement in 2025. The work plan was presented um and reviewed to city council at a joint workshop and approved in February. In June um staff asked the parks commission to discuss the service level and staffing needs. currently currently not um being provided or currently being provided and also asking what's not being met. Right. Commissioners were asked to submit items they feel the park system is lacking in addition to any services that are not being fulfilled. So issue uh before us tonight is what items are missing from the park service level um that the parks commission would like to bring to the council workshop. And again, we are scheduled to meet with city council in a workshop coming up in September 3rd or nth. Third or ninth. Look that up. I was quizzing you guys, but nobody had answer. >> It's the ninth. >> I believe it's the Did you say the ninth? >> I think so. Ninth. So, we'll find that. So, um so I asked uh commissioners to send me items that they um wanted to add to this list or what they thought this person or position could carry. Um I did itemize those lists. I tried to get that list in between that five to seven range that we could present within our time frame with the city council on that meeting. So, um, I'll read down through those. I asked if we want to amend those that we can amend them or change them. Um, in your packet was the the list of all the everybody's responses on there or no. So, okay. So, this is a general summary of of a majority of those. So uh the first one was rec recreational programming, community engagement, community and recreational education programming for adults, kids, seniors, promoting outdoor activities and the use of the park system. Second one was grant writing explore and secure additional funding sources, mechanisms, mechanisms and partners identifying and applying and securing park funding via various means. The third one is increase community communication uh with the use by use of trails, parks through the community website um providing additional opportunities, events and even volunteer opportunities making a long range strategic plan. So that which would include our parks uh improving our parks, the expansions, any new facilities uh just creating that larger scope of what um our park system is going to be look like not only in two years, five years, 10 years implementing our next parks master plan, what to include in that, what to uh make vital use of our recreational areas. Right. The four uh fourth one there, coordinating, developing and implementing a city trail network including a greater interconnectivity and year-round accessibility. I think there was a number of you that mentioned that um you know about every year we talk about trail connectivity at some point, but I think this is more pushing towards um a number of things, not only year- round accessibility. So that brings in you know plowing trails um or accessibility like making them come out to crosswalks which has been a conversation as well. So um just really coordining having that person be a head coordinator for some of those discussions um environmental stewardship u managing sustainability initiatives uh conservation efforts and urban forestry programs. So, I know we've had a number of conversations not only in regards to invasive species, but planting more trees. And I think that's I think that's where this conversation was going is kind of finding someone or giving them more directive to really manage and push those um those those initiatives or offer them up or get them started. Right. Um, so with that, I'm I'm open for discussion of any changes or amendments uh to these items that we want to share with city council on the 9th. >> Okay. Questions for item or thoughts, discussion? >> These are not in any priority. Is that correct? >> They are not. Nope. Nope. Um, I really just took those that did respond. I did just take them um down through and several of them are just combined um like even the recreational programming um is just pro you know educational programming and that outdoor activities was just part of that programming part right >> I feel like this list captures things pretty well >> I'm just wondering on the second one Adam where it says grant writing maybe just maybe a little more I don't want to say vague but global maybe just like more like ex funding opportunities or >> agreed >> establish funding opportunities or because there's many ways to secure funds besides writing grants one just one of them >> right so just just a little bit more global maybe for that one but they're all I think >> I think the key when I looked at this list is they're all important and they all deserve priority >> but it would be finding somebody that can but they all tie together and I I think that's kind of maybe the missing piece is that this position would kind of try to tie them all together. >> Yeah. Find some synergies. >> Again, this conversation comes up as more of a why, right? And the selling of this position to city council that it is needed, right? And again, the why why the parks commission is recommending this? You know, if you listen to the most recent city council meeting where we talk about budgets, you know, this position comes into that play of like can the city afford it, right? And so again, when we when we talk about these things, we'll have that opportunity on the 9th and I open that up to many of you to express your feelings, your thoughts, your history of the town of expressing the why we need that, right? because you know they you know if you there's a long discussion on the budget and how we're going to meet our expectations and you know when and when those prices go up that affects everybody in the community right so um you know I really again express to you guys like the why and the sale of what this position will be uh for the community and how it will really help that. So, >> I think um we we all listened to the the parks master plan as it came through um you know had a member of the parks commission on the well actually two members of the parks commission that were on the on the board as well advisory group um at that time and so we've had some full investment in that and so really just trying to fulfill that full circle all that number one priority. So that's why I say if you know if we need to amend these you know and I think that's a great amendment Tracy in regards to just making you know funding opportunities versus you know adding to that. Um but that bigger picture of that why and means of selling that to make sure you know if that's what our if that's what our still our desire is our need is right um because otherwise that might just get you know kick kicked down the road to the next year or the next year until find a different opportunity you know what I mean >> this is nothing against you Adam but but I think parks would be a full-time job in order to to do a job with a city our size at this time. You know, we can't expect you to do all this stuff with the amount of time you have allowed it allotted to the parks. I think it's it's really important that this position is um made and filled in short order. >> Yeah. And I think I think as we went through the the master plan, I think that became evident that you know and I think we asked you a couple times is is this sustainable to implement this master plan the way we're structured now and you kind of said no in a nice way, you know. So I I think that if we're going to spend the money and put in the time to do a master plan, we need somebody that can carry that >> through. And I think even tonight's discussion about pickle ball and long term, I mean, again, there's only so much time in the day for you to, you know, again, we're asking you to research and those type of things, but that's really what you need in order to, you know, in that full-fledged engagement um on a topic is you need somebody that can devote that specific time to those areas. I think one thing that's not captured in here um in the summary list like is that selling it part. I think we've had discussions as a commission um that one thing that you know we all see as important is to think about the sustainability of the funding for parks and various maintenance and things like that particularly as um parks dedication fees might you know they're not going to go on forever um and so I think my recollection is that when um Bolton and Minkx contractors were presenting the master plan to us um that they indicated that other towns like these parks park directors kind of pay for themselves that position with the amount of funding that comes in. Um and so I I'm not sure how one ground truce that claim. Um but I think that the the sustainability of funding and maintenance um diversifying the the funding streams is something that uh makes the the ask seem more reasonable to me. >> Maybe that to that point that second bullet needs to be expanded a bit with the sustainability of long-term funding. Like I mean it's just maybe even revising the how it's written a bit to get to that point as well. I mean we need additional funding sources but >> a big reason for that is the long >> what are we doing in five years 10 years 20 years >> and the growth of the city and etc. So maybe there's just a little >> right and and the tax base is going to you know as a city expands the tax base is going to I would caution I would not want to get to a point where we have to that you're going to raise funds to raise enough funds in terms of projects or whatever that you're kind of saying pays for the position. the position in my mind should be able to stand on its own whether someone can come up with grants or or whatever to support that because I think there's a lot of things that this position could do in terms of best practices and efficiencies and operations and those type of things that can also contribute to that sustainability. >> Sure. I'll just note too and and and Peter can probably comment is that as a parks board we probably recommended more purchasing updating a number of our parks in the last three four years more than we probably have in like the last 10. We probably spent more money in like the last four years in regards to the previous 10 years, right? Um and so and I and I think our finance department knows that. I think our our city council knows that. Um and so they might just to give you the inkling, they might tell you to just to start reeling things in a little bit and not and start to think about that financial aspect of it, right? because uh our finance side is looking at you know putting aside money like you know having the community put aside money so we're not just funded by the you know development right and so that will increase that amount but what is that amount you know is 25,000 a year enough is $100,000 a year enough I mean that's the big question that's going to come back to you know what's cut what's what's what's going to stay whatever that might be right so um you So, I think we just, you know, again, coming back to be fiscally responsible as a commission, um, with what we're planning ahead, but still being open to new ideas, improving our parks, um, to the best that we can, you know, and if it's through this position or, um, changes that we do. Um, I think, um, that's open for that's open for discussion, too. That's open not only with myself, but also with the with the city council, too. Oh, I say that because, you know, with the pickle ball courts, right, we we spend a lot of money on those, >> you know, our playground sets, we spend a lot of money on those and those been going. We're on our third one, third year now, right? And so, um, a lot of money in three years. And if you look at our CIP, you know, we have money allotted for the the the new acreage. We have money allotted for three more playground sets. um you know additional resources here, additional you know so you know we you know those pavilions we don't have titles or places for them but they likely will ask where do you want to do that and you know do we need one every five years or every every year for the next five years can we spread that out maybe we don't do one next year maybe it's the ne it's two five seven you know you know 11 years right so on on the 11th year so um so yeah just just some things to to keep in mind because I think those questions questions will be asked. I wonder if we should under the grant writing one also can I go on other city websites with parks they mentioned things about gifting or sponsoring different >> donations right I think again that's why I'm saying funding opportunities because it could be sponsorships you the city could establish a parks foundation there's many things besides grant you know that >> so it's just like securing addition additional funding, >> right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Flip those how that's Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Other discussion. >> Are you talking specifically about this last section? Um anything on this current agenda? >> I would ask, you know, is there any other changes besides, you know, definitely the grant writing and the um the funding opportunities to number two where we'd like to change any verbiage or changes on the the other five I think bullet number three could be a little clearer. Um, unless I'm just not reading it correctly. Yeah, I don't Yeah, I was kind of thinking that the community I don't want to say engagement, but I also think of kind of and it talks about that in the funding about partners, but I almost think increased community I don't know partnership. >> Is it park promotion >> awareness >> create? I like awareness. instead of getting rid of >> how is that >> in get rid of communication make it awareness >> increase community awareness and engagement >> or something like that. >> How is that different than the first bullet point? >> I I think you could take out community engagement in the first one and just keep keep that as programming either recreation or community program put in events and volunteers under the recreation programming and community engagement. That's just strictly, I think, activation of our park system. So, we're going to spend all this money on our parks and they get used by the public, but we don't have any programming. So you could take out the community engagement and put that in bullet three or reward bullet three and just put recreation programming or community pro whatever however you want to word it and put the events and the community engagement down below to that third bullet >> because I'm assuming you're going to you're going to talk about these >> so you can so you explain kind of what >> Yeah, we're going to talk about I'm going to we're going to go through each one of these again. >> Do you have a question? >> Oh. Um, do you is there is there like what is the difference between bullet point number one and bullet point number three? I'm just a little bit confused. Number one and which one? >> Number one and three. >> I think uh number one is recreational like the extra activities that you would uh put together uh for students um adults, seniors in our parks, right? Um really pushing recreational activities, right? So, I think a a number one of our neighbors have, you know, if it's lessons, if it's music in the park, if it's puppet in the park, if it's, you know, um getting seniors out there to do exercise, just just things like that, right? where number three would be more like um I know we talked about um mapping on our website, right, of maybe making trails um that you know increase people's physical activity where it might be here's a five mile stretch that you can go from the Savona area to wherever come back to Rainwood and you know and and make a five mile route or you know different colored routes uh just a um just different just different things like that. I think volunteer opportunities is a lot separate than community uh programming like uh Trace had indicated getting rid of community engagement out of that number one and definitely bringing that down to number three where that community engagement is that volunteer opportunities. other discussion. >> Did I answer your question? >> Yes, thank you. >> Yeah, I feel like I know because I know some of the wording, but I feel like too like the recreational programming some of it is like what this position would provide to the community, you know, so programming. I mean, I don't know if communication is part of that, but then getting people involved in the community through volunteer, through events, like to me there's a difference there, too. It's like, you know, what's provided and then how you get people engaged. Does that make sense? Like I feel like those are kind of two different >> They're very different. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. the the programming a programmer that piece would be programs could be special events. It could be volunteer opportunity, >> recruiting and training people to run those things, >> right? Or partnering with other agencies if there was not means to do that within the city, but partnering I think that's a piece that's missing on that end. And then Tammy, like you said, then it's more about awareness and engagement about our park system and opportunities, whether that's trails, whether that's, you know, whatever. >> Do you think it'd be more cohesive if we put recreational programming? And then the next bullet point is increase community communication and then it jumps into grant writing because I think the first two would then be talking about the community and how we can like increase engagement and then the third one would start talking about funding and other stuff. I think if we jump from programming and the community engagement, jump over to finances and grant writing and then jump back it could be kind of skewing. >> Yeah. I mean, it also strikes me that this is separating into like a couple larger bullet points with these sub bullet points, right? Um, engagement, funding, planning, or well, no, that never mind. These buckets are fine. You could cut it you could cut it into broader categories and then bullet out some smaller things to talk about. >> Yeah. But I like the idea about kind of >> just organizing it. >> Organizing it. I like that idea about kind of the programmatic kind of community piece and then getting into maybe the you know either the the financial piece and then the strategy kind of the strategic piece I think is a good way to tie so Yeah. So you don't have the council jumping all over the place and trying to go back and forth like we've just done. Yeah. >> Adam, do you have other questions for us? You're not looking for a motion or anything here? >> No, just discussion. >> Yep. Just discuss. >> Yeah, I'll make those changes. If you got additional changes to those, please forward those to me. Um and and if you don't mind, I'll forward it to back to you as a chair and vice chair and just quick proofread it and um let me know that. >> Okay, thank you. Sounds like a plan. All right, next agenda item. Thanks for sticking with this everyone. Um any communications or updates? >> No, just a reminder the on the 9th we do have that uh meeting with city council. again they set that time aside for us. So if you cannot make that, please let me know um just so um so that we have do have enough to make it their um for their time as well, right? Because there's a number of things on there. So we are allotted likely that 3540 minutes um and then we'll um they'll move on to the next topic. So, uh, during that topic, again, really want to stress these these things itemize these down, um, and have a have a conversation with them. And I I hope that's valuable for the parks commission. I know we've kind of started in the past, just the last couple years doing our really reviewing our our plan. Uh, but hopefully this adds to that to just get another face to face with them to um really set us where we're at, where we'd like to be. Um and um just really really addressing our needs. Right. >> Adam, do you have a time for that yet? >> I believe it's still 6:30 as well. >> 6:30. Okay. Thank you. >> Um starting this week, our Reed Park uh parking lot improvement will begin. Probably noticed that on our if you are connected with our city web page and our our flyer that comes out every Friday. So they'll start that project this week. The park will be closed for vehicle access during that time. it probably will be that three to four weeks for them to complete that uh totally. It will still be accessible by foot. So, I have informed the baseball um associations that use that as well that they might have to use other means if it's Legion Avenue, sorry, or you know, a neighboring block to park is uh 30th Street uh is is restricted for parking in in a lot of that. So, um you might see some additional parking outside the park uh for those for those for those times. We did pick that time mainly because it was right in between that fall ball and that regular school ball that normally ended right there in July. So, it's good timing. I think uh fall ball will be starting up when school starts up. So, which has already began. So, you probably they're probably already using it, but just to keep them informed of that. So, again, we're probably looking at about four weeks expansion of the parking lot. Um just a new trail. There'll be a crosswalk across 30th for the accessibility. Um, and that trail will go all the way up to the ball field, um, as the current one is right now as well. Um, yeah. Uh, other than that, um, I'll take any other questions or follow-ups. >> So, I noticed in Tavon Park the trailer that was testing the water is gone. >> Yeah. >> So, there was talk about putting parking lot down there or are they going to take remove that gravel and put grass in? So that yeah the gravel will be removed. Um the gate will be put back in there and that will be that'll be seated again with for grass right. Um for the winter hour for the winter terms there will be bales again placed up near or next to the fence or fencing around those um those permanent wells wells that are there as well. So >> okay thank you. >> Okay. No other communications. Um, can I have a motion to adjourn the meeting? >> I'll make a motion to adjurnn. >> A second. >> I'll second. >> All in favor? I. >> Any oppose? Right. Meeting adjourned. Thanks everyone. >> Thanks. >> It was a lot today. It >> was a big one. Good job. Good job.