probably gonna get started, but I just want to remind everyone to try and talkirectly so they pick up. >> All right. So, we're here for Tuesday night getting First number mayor tonight we have Margaret here to give an update from an update on last question. Yeah, go ahead. >> We're here for you, >> Mr. Mayor and Council members. My name is Margaret Bessel, as Nicole so kindly said. Um, I'm with I'm the managing director at Len Hoffman Public Affairs, and we had the honor and the privilege of working with the city of Lake Elmo uh for kind of the last two months of the legislative session. Um I well what I did was I put together a report for you comprehensive report that is much more than um that includes much more than your your legislative priorities. Uh your legislative priorities actually start on the 12 on the page 12. I apologize um for your benefit but up until that it's just more kind of what this legislative session. I'm happy to go through how we kind of started here and how the session started um and and talk specifically about the two pieces that we helped you um kind of get things up and running. Um, you know, the 2025 legislative session was unique in that the legislature navigated for the first time a tied for the second time in history a tied house of representatives from 6767 as you may remember and then of course um there was a death in the Minnesota Senate uh Senator Carrie Dick and so the Senate is actually tied at the beginning of the 20 2025 legislative session until the special election could happen. Um I if you would have asked me could things have gotten even more um uh unbelievable, I would have told you no and not after 2025. But uh you know I think the the summer of 206 2025 said you know hold my beer. Um unfortunately we had uh the murder of the Hortman's um the speaker ameritus Melissa Hortman and her husband as well as their their beloved dog and then the attempted murder of Senator John Hoffman and um his wife and actually daughter. And so that kind of that coupled with what was going on nationally and uh with particularly with ICE's presence here in the state of Minnesota um really kind of created a bit of a firestorm as they came into the 2026 legislative session. I wasn't sure what was going to happen and you know I get I'm happy to report that it actually went better than I anticipated. um in that they were actually a able to accomplish a few things. There weren't supplemental budgets in every issue area. Uh but the issues that they did tackle were kind of the pressing ones and in particular um as it relates to Lake Elmo, they were able to pass a bonding bill, a capital investment bill and that was really kind of the in my mind the number one priority of what the legislative session was to accomplish. Um the second year of the bianium which was 2026 always reserved for policy provisions and um for uh for bonding. They were not um there was no obligation to pass any bills this session. Uh the bill the budget forecast came out in February and it was better than expected and so they didn't have to solve a budget deficit. So the supplemental budget, if they were to spend money, would have just been on um programs either currently going on right now or programs into the future. Um and as we as you may have heard, we do have a budget deficit in 28. So, the um the legislature that will be newly elected in um November is going to be tasked with trying to solve that budget deficit, assuming that the economy continues to stay on track. It does look like there'll be more money coming into the state, but they'll still have a substantial deficit to tackle. Um the the House All 201 legislators are up for reelection this this year as well as the constitutional officers. So we already see there's going to be my prediction is we'll see close to um there's already 45 legislators that are either not running for reelection or they're running for higher office. And so there's a huge turnover in um in the legisle and that doesn't take into consideration any wins and losses. If I was to predict I don't I don't think anybody has an idea going back. So that will potential to have one party control for the DFL governorship and then we've got a whole host of Republicans running for the primary You're wonderful. So Medic. 3,400 Unfortunately, But during our county, And now infrastructure are on property that they do not. And so in addition to The bids coming in a little bit lower than anticipated. Looks likeion combined with this language combined is going to save the county and city of very felt very funding for I think I I typically tell clients it takes about two years to get bills not only introduced but kind of through the process. So I would say this year of our start year Now moving forward nicely. The other bill that we helped city with the lake water supply exemption. We all know that that issue issue here. expectations. As you probably know, the bill would require the city, sorry, require the department of financial commission to issue a permit to the city to construed you all from water. We did get a hearing in the house and the bill was heard in the Minnesota in the department in the environment committee. Um able to come testify. I was there pretty well. The biggest obstacle impediment that we face during the hearing as well as moving forward is representative co-chair from Lake Vote. 67 billies and during the during the conversation, you know, represented consequences of Lake So, um I think we are so that's kind of the two bills that we helped with outline the cash bill as well. There was a cash bonding bill and then um the outdoor heritage fund legacy bill that bill requires as well as homeowners and questions about that and that you approval So, how is that going to play out in order for us to obey the White Bear Lake lawsuit not withstanding the absurdity of it? Something that we've been doing is to have developments utilize conservation of water by having irrigation systems pull from ponding that's created. Essentially instead of doing gray water within the system, it's water reuse with the impervious going into the pond. In order to do that, the HOA's maintain the system. So we need to figure out we need to figure out the work because we don't have a choice. We we we have not we've only approved one DA in the last four years that hasn't had water re and that was because it couldn't fit on the site. It was engineering impossible. So I guess that's one concern I have. The other concern I I do have is the language discusses a legal path to wind down or terminate associations for communities made up entirely of detached single family homes where there's no shared maintenance obligations. Now again, it's not a council issue, but it's a it's an issue for our residents who may have who may be members in HOAs where that's applicable. Again, not our issue, but questions are going to come to the city whether they should or shouldn't they're going to. And I'm just wondering when it comes to no shared maintenance obligations. What do you recall what that language is regarding? Like is that mean they would have maintenance obligations for parcels that they own and therefore they pay someone to mow it? Is that what they're discussing? >> That's uh m Mr. Mayor and council member, that is it's a great question. That was as I read it or as I saw the intent, but I can get you the specific language just to make sure that that is exactly um what we're looking at, you know, like snow removal, >> lawn mowing. I'm not sure if what I don't know is if like water irrigation systems included would assume that's more out by the city where we most city now it's something >> pools and fitness centers >> right >> those kinds of things >> and they had because I'm trying to think of neighborhoods we have where there's no where I know off the top of my head no shared maintenance obligations. I I can't think of too many, but there's going to be it's a nonzero number and those HOA presidents absolutely will be calling staff. They shouldn't. They should be talking to their own HOA management company, but just to to help staff know, you know, here's the resource, here's where to go to. But yeah, in terms of the water reuse thing, that is that is a huge tool in our toolkit. I don't I don't we haven't dictated that though, have we? I thought that was more of a we'd like to see that. >> It's been a part of their DAS that they're doing it, >> but I think they put that in there. >> And we've never said they have to do it by creating HOA, but how else do they do it? >> Yeah. In terms of the White Bear Lake language, how do you see this moving forward? Because previously, when we had the the language that did pass two years ago, which we thought was the solution until DNR told us it wasn't good enough, and they never said a word during the session, it wasn't uh Representative Fischer who was the problem. It was a different representative. >> Can you share or you don't you don't have to. >> We can talk after. >> Okay. And so because I've I've spoken with Representative Fischer at some of the White Pair Lake meetings. >> Yeah. >> And I'm I'm just wondering what if you have a sense right now for do we need to do slightly different language or do we just need to push on different people? >> Uh Mr. Mayor, council member, that's a great question. You know, I didn't I wasn't part of the conversations two years ago. Um, my recommendation, just kind of not knowing all of the facts, if you will, would be we should sit down with the Department of Natural Resources and ask them specifically what what was insufficient about the language that you passed two years ago and see if we can get them to, you know, talk to us about it. >> Well, it's essentially that the the court case says they can, >> right? >> And the legisl language says may instead of shall. >> It was literally one word. [clears throat] >> Okay. >> And they didn't say a word about it when they knew the bill was going through the session. They didn't say a word and then they told us in Senator Seberger's office after session. They had a couple of AC's there to then let us know, well, by the way, we're not going to listen to this statute because it's May. >> Well, and they have a court order. >> Correct. I mean that's a pretty important piece for them. So >> yeah, >> the the legislative language is to supersede the court order >> because the should we say the court order is less than scientifically soundacted >> and even some of the DNR's own reports don't support that action. So, >> so I think Mr. Mayor and Council, I think, you know, we knowing that now um my suggestion would be to kind of have some meetings in the interimm here as we kind of move forward and start talking about, you know, what what what the options are. Uh if not our legislation, then then what might be acceptable. And I think we got I at least I heard uh Representative Fischer's commitment to trying to Well, not only to meet with us, but to try to figure out some solution potentially. Um, you know, certainly Representative Johnson uh advocated on your behalf. He um well, I would say both of your legislators are going to be in uh high-profile races this uh this November, and there'll be lots of money being spent on those two races. So, um you know, we can certainly continue to work with them uh and just kind of keep in mind that in November we might have to get somebody up to speed uh fairly quickly. >> The other the other kind of uh parallel thing that could happen, right, if there's a change in administration, there's typically changes in commissioners and things of that nature, right? Could could change some direction of, you know, all the departments for that matter. Mr. Mayor, I I think that is um a very solid observation and I would expect that we will see um a large change over and not only commissioners but assistant commissioners and you know I think Senator Clolobashar if she were to win has made it pretty clear she's interested in um in some changes big changes and I know for a fact if you know, one, if the Republicans were to win, >> there's going to be an even bigger change, >> right? Okay. So, I guess part of the discussion here is, you know, last year we didn't we really didn't anticipate very well as a as a council on having legislative items, but knowing that we will go into there, I I mean, I would like to see us put some money in a budget for a lobbyist for the 2027 session. Um, and I just [snorts] I'd like to hear from others. >> I I'll just start. I I agree. I I mean, just even with the the bonding from the 36 Lake Elmo, I mean that things like that are going to come up. Obviously, this water issue is something that we have to stay on top of and just from those two individual items, I agree. Um, other stuff is going to pop up. So, >> yeah, >> I think having having that foot in the door um is important. You know, obviously I want to talk about how much we're looking to do for it and be have a clear plan and clear direction. Um but yeah, I I am in favor of continuing to put that into the budget. >> Yeah, I mean, I'd be in favor of continuing to put that in the budget, too. But again, to your point, um Council Member Hearn, I would like to know dig more into how much it's going to cost, but I think that this is a beneficial uh expenditure for the city to help us in the future. So, it's spending a little bit now, but it's going to save us a lot in the future hopefully is the idea. So, I'm in favor of it. >> I'm in favor of it also. I would um [snorts] only ask that if we use a source of lark and hoffen that they bring Chris hairstall here to do some magic. >> I didn't know you'll ask uh >> I'm going to assume you're you're also a yay council member. Okay. >> So then Nicole, if you could then do your background and come back to the council with an appropriate budget that you think is good. Uh, also I guess um, you know, there are several lobbying firms out there. I was very happy with Brandon and the attention that we got during the session. I felt like he was on top of it. I I was happy with Lark and Hoffman's presence. I I think the added benefit is that they're also Washington counties. um lobbyist and I I think that in the long run helps us. I don't there's I think there's more efficiency there in that than having two different lobbying groups kind of trying to converse and making sure things are lined up with Washington County and whatnot. So >> um that would be my suggestion >> and I agree and also because they're up to speed on the issues. We don't have to start at ground zero and work our way all the way up again. >> Yes. Okay. Yeah, that's a good point. Thank you. Thank you very much. >> Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. Um I'll work with Nicole to put together a proposal for you all to consider and um we can get started whenever you'd like. >> Yes. And and you know, please do uh let Brandon know that um was very appreciative. I know he's he's got a new kid there and >> Yeah. And uh it was it was nice to work with him. >> Well, good. I'm glad to hear that. Um yes, he very much enjoyed working with you all and um was looking forward to it. I you know I didn't he he lives in Austin, Minnesota and has a brand new baby, so I was like I'll cover this one for you. >> No, I appreciate it. [laughter] Appreciate it. >> But uh we very much enjoyed working with you and would love to earn your business back. So thank you so much. >> Thanks Margaret. >> Yet thank you. Next on the agenda is parks position. >> Yes. So back in September of 2025, uh council held a joint work session with parks commission to discuss the priorities um for a position um for parks. Excuse me. Um there was six categories that the commission thought were uh the parks master plan could be grouped into. We want to make sure as staff that we understood what council's priorities are from that as well as how to move forward um what you would like to see in this position. Just kind of talk about costs, [snorts] pros and cons, things like that. like to give a >> Do you want Annette to go first? Oh, or >> um Yeah, I was just going to give a little bit more background because um I wasn't here when the um parks master plan discussion started. So, I just want to remind you guys um why how we got to where we are today is. So, um in in 2023, the council um elected to move forward with updating the parks master plan. That was last updated in 2009. And then in 2024 and August, that's when the parks master plan was presented, the new one. And then like Jennifer said, fall of 25, we had the discussion with parks commission as well as the joint workshop with parks commission and council. And then I figured it was more fitting to talk about um kind of bring up the council priorities again before we create our next budget and to see if your priorities are still the same and if you wish to move forward with um assigning additional resources to it. So that's where we are today. But we did invite um Annette Solomon with community ed. she's the executive director. Um because one of the priorities that I heard you guys talk about was kind of programming um not in the sense of like a true parks and wreck uh department but uh utilizing our facilities and highlighting what we have. And so in meeting with Annette on a different topic, I learned that there is an opportunity if the council wishes to partner where we can um partner with them. She can explain it more and have them use our facilities [clears throat] for programming. Um, and so we'll let Annette kind of explain that. She also wants to provide an update on middle school sports and the funding for that as well as committee ads taking that on. So go ahead. >> So I'm going to quick hand these out. Can I just pass it this way? So this is the uh I should use this, right? All right. So this what I'm passing out is the current community education catalog. I'm just sharing that with you. You may have seen it. Hopefully you received it in your home. But that just to put it in context what we're talking about today. So um community education uh the mission of community education is to provide uh lifelong learning right in their community to promote the health and well-being of our community through those programs and under that opus we have a pretty um broad opportunity to provide different types of programming. Certainly as a result of the funding that's provided by the state, uh we have been able we have been encouraged and been able to um design programs that are particularly intended for all ages. And that uh one of the things that some communities experience as as we uh you were discussing just moments ago is that they might have a recreation department. And a recreation department um in a in a city situation, generally speaking, would levy for rec recreation dollars and then those funds would be put to use so that programs could be designed for their community using their facilities um and uh typically engaging their community in athletics and sports types acti types of activities. I think mostly because there's a lot of uh park access through a city and that they have fields and they have opportunities to promote sports and ultimately um where uh community education exists but maybe a wreck a formal wreck program does not exist. It's not uncommon for community education to step in and provide that type of programming. And some of our surrounding school districts in fact are doing that. So, Madamea School District, White Bear School District, I I'm not 100% certain about uh district 622. Um they do not have a formal recreation program. And so, consequently, um and the Stillwater Area School District, our cities do not have a formal recreation program. And so, community ed has stepped in and designed a number of programs. And if you look in this catalog, it is heavily on the site. It's our summer catalog, so it's heavily on the side of our youth, but we do also, and you will see, we do also offer adult programming in the way of athletics. And so, we can do uh provide those types of programs in a variety of different facilities. And we do that. We don't just use our school buildings. We can go out and go to a yoga studio and and uh promote a class and have hold something like that there. we can um we talked to the courthouse, the old courthouse at one point in time. They were interested in having us offer some classes there. And so, as I was talking with Nicole, we we started to talk about, okay, well, what could community education do here if uh there was a desire um to expand recreation type programming through the in partnership with the community. And really what community education can provide is we can come in with we already have the structure, the registration system, the staff, all of the things that can pro uh design and deliver the programming. What we would need is an agreement so that we could use your facilities. So it would be a joint powers agreement, right? and that in order to keep that cost down for your community, we would uh ask that it would we would uh use those facilities at no additional cost, but that ultimately then um we would keep our costs down that way so that your community could get the best price for the programs that they're that we're delivering. So that's an option for you to think about. Are there questions about it? >> I'm sorry. Could you go over that model one more time? So how does it work with as far as like you know the community members will pay a fee to join one of these programs. That fee goes to >> community >> community education community education. >> It pays for everything from the marketing on up through the the staffing that design it, the staffing that delivers it. >> Okay. >> The um registration system, all of those things are included in it. So the city would have no um financial contribution to that part of it. Sure. Where the city would have their their financial experience would be by maintaining the parks and providing that access. >> Got it. And the city doesn't see any of the fees correct come back to the city. That's to pay for the marketing, for the material, for the advertising. But the idea is to get the facilities, the fields to be used >> more by doing it this way. >> Correct. >> Having >> Okay. Thank you. >> Makes sense. >> In these conversations, um, have there been thoughts or ideas for how to leverage specific assets? So, I'm thinking like Sunfish Lake Park. >> Yeah. or obviously with the new elementary using that as an access point to the park reserve how those can be utilized. >> We have not had specific conversations. We only met maybe what a month ago. So it's still early in in the conversation. And I will say we have used so um a few years ago we had a bird um birding class uh or or I can't think of the the correct term but that ultimately we held it at Sunfish Park and so this has happened in the past. We contacted the city. They gave us permission to go and use the facility. We organized it. We put it out to our community and then they participated in that particular location. So it's not unheard of already. >> Gotcha. And I mean my two cents is I not only am fully on board, but I know I know for a fact the community program is successful. I mean our kids use it throughout the year today for from 1 to 4 at the high school. But [laughter] it's also I mean you're aware the the conversation with the airport again it's not on it's not in Lake Elmo but it's Lake Elmo airport and the potential partnership uh that could happen with 834 is is amazing for residents in the area. So I again for purposes of workshop I fully endorse moving having this conversation and seeing what what ways the assets the city have can happen. We already have a JPA with the district as it is. We have one for the uh the northeast corner at the middle school. There's a joint powers agreement for that land and for the tennis courts. >> So I I I fully support it. I um have every confidence that we can go down that road and f and find some solution. Again, it might not be 22 classes. Maybe it start with two or three classes and it's things that are outdoors or it's uh what are those when you have kids and you have them do a scavenger hunt with a compass. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like geocache, >> like that type of thing. Or maybe it's camping skills. It >> not the same as Boy Scouts, but there are ways to utilize that asset that I I think could be greatly expanded in addition to the park reserve. Um whether it's things at the sports complex or certain parks, I think is is another story in terms of how can certain assets be used. It might be sledding at Tablin Park during the winter. Who knows? But we absolutely have assets that I think are worth utilizing in this conversation. So, I fully endorse it. >> So, with the with the joint powers agreement, how does that work for uh facilities that are currently being used by other organizations that we don't have a joint powers agreement? So, um the the St. Cry soccer club like if they're using the fields or if there's like an ultimate frisbee group that uses the field currently with the joint powers agreement would community education then kind of get priority over those other organizations and could potentially take over the field that the ultimate frisbee >> organization did. I and again I I'm on board with exploring this. I'm just trying to understand kind of how that trying to understand how it works to make it work for your business, >> but how it because I can absolutely see how it could get our parks to be used, which I love that idea of. I'm just trying to make sure to understand how that could impact sports organizations that are already using those facilities so they don't all of a sudden kind of get the boot and >> right >> now there's a new program taking over this field. >> Right. Well, and I will just say and and some of this, you know, certainly the city would have to decide how they want it would want to define >> that agreement. Um but um knowing the core purpose of the work that I do, I wouldn't want to supersede something that is already out there happening in the community that is successful because it doesn't make sense to uh come in and disrupt a positive program. And we're all in this together, right? We want these things for our youth and for our families, for our adults. And so let's find out what isn't happening right now and move towards that rather than trying to somehow supplant or shift or whatever. >> And it's not like you guys source these events. I mean somebody has to come to you and say, "Hey, I'm a yoga instructor." >> Yes, sir. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We do go out and look for people. >> So you Okay. >> Yep. As well as they come to us. >> Okay. So if you you hear that there's a need for something, you go search for that individual. >> Hey, there's a need at this location for this. Okay. Yeah. And a prime example would be the theater program during the summer. They partner with the Zephr Theater out Still Water as the resource. >> Got it. And did Zephr I wonder if Zephr more approached them saying, "Hey, this is something that >> we'd like or was it the opposite?" >> I can't speak to that, but it's a great someone here who knows. >> We did approach them. Okay. As a matter of fact, because we knew that about them and that they had some youth programming, and we were looking for a partner that would preferably be local, but also could um come in pretty easily and pretty quickly and start to provide that type of programming. It was seven seven years ago, eight years ago, something like that. So yeah, >> and then from our end where you know it's our responsibility then to maintain the field and or the the the infrastructure whatever it might be >> are there certain expectations that are set from that standpoint? >> We would have to be very specific about liabilities right that we would have to have written in the agreement where that um how that is uh accounted for would be the best way I guess that describe it. Um, beyond that then I would look to you to provide uh feedback on what are you looking for for your community. So if you have information I did get a chance to start looking through your parks um uh systems plan. I did not make it through all 179 pages of it, but that clearly I can see there's some things that are that uh were coming to the top that would be pretty easy for us to look at how could we provide that type of programming. So for instance, I saw that Frisbee golf is an option in at least one of your parks if I recall correctly and that you know we could advertise a Frisbee golf uh event or activity. we could um have a a group that would convene on Wednesday nights. I'm just throwing something out, right? And that they could participate, sign up, pay for and participate in that. >> Yeah. Thank you for helping me understand how the system works. Again, I'm [clears throat] fully on board. Just obviously I want to understand those details, but I think this would be a great way to get our facilities to be more used without having to invest in creating our own department to run this. So, yeah, I t I tend to agree with that. [snorts] Um, at this point in time, I'm not I'm not uh 100% supportive of adding another staff position for something there. There's a lot of things that happen in the valley related to whether it's baseball, soccer, you know, some of the sporting items that that are there, but getting people that, you know, um get their kids involved in having more places where that can happen. I can see the advantage to that. And um I don't know of any other communities in the area. I mean, does Water have a part? I mean, I'm sure Woodberry does. >> Woodbury does. Still Water does not. Bayport does not. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> and I would think they're more of our more of our contemporaries in in that regard as >> far as size and need to address community needs uh related to that. And there's there's, you know, VAA >> in the valley here. So, >> um, I guess I would be more inclined to have a JPA that says, "Yeah, and we we take care of our parks anyway. That's our standard, >> right? >> Our SOP for for maintenance." So, um, that's kind of where I'm at. I tend to agree with you, mayor. I think, um, we have so much going on with the with the parks. We talked about Lions Park plan and we got our 70 what seven 70 acre plan to do. And I think once we figure out what those plans are and how we're going to pay for them and what facilities we're going to have, then it would make sense to talk about a coordinator at that point. But we don't know really what we're coordinating yet except the assets that we have. And I don't think we're failing at doing that currently. You can always use them better, but I don't think we need a full-time position to do that right now. I think in the future that'll make sense, >> right? And and this is a creative way to partner with an asset that exists. Like I I know the quality of the program and I said it before, but I I yeah to the underlying question about a staff member, I would agree with you, Council Member Dragoich. I think partnerships such as this are the way to go for the short and medium term. So >> appreciate it. So, just so we're clear, this was just one of the priorities um that we wanted to discuss tonight about adding resources. So, Annette is just here for this portion of the conversation as well as she wanted to provide an update on middle school sports, but then we wanted to touch on all the other priorities that we heard you guys mention to see where we're at, too. >> Okay. >> So, I'll be brief about the middle school sports. Um, I'm sure that some of you have probably heard about the school district is going through some budget cuts. Uh, in fact, uh, $5 million worth of budget cuts this year. And that as a result of that, and we've, this is, uh, the third year and a total of $12 million after we finish this. Um, and that, um, unfortunately that means that we're digging deep as you can imagine. in that ultimately um one of the programs that the school district has run and has subsidized has been our middle school sports program. So right now for instance they uh this school year they were charging $95 a student to participate in a sport and that it's not uncommon for a school district and mo many of the districts around us have already done this. they have shifted those middle school sports programs over to their community education program when they can no longer afford to subsidize them. So that is exactly what is happening at this point in time. And that that program that middle school sports program is uh essentially a recreation program, right? You you engage middle schoolers in everything from volleyball to diving to basketball to all of the different sports. Um I shouldn't say all of them. There are some sports that some of our local organizations such as VAAA are very successfully running in that. We find that uh families are going uh there to get their their students engaged in those sports. But that ultimately um because middle school sports is sort of that first more formal experience for a student. Not I shouldn't say first because there are plenty of students that are starting in elementary and club sports where they are going into competitions and they are experiencing um uh uh sports at a deeper level. But for those who are just dabbling in it for the first time who are curious about uh the different sports we want them to we want to make sure it remains accessible to them. So, we did our research and what we were able to find out is that that if we were to maintain what we call free and reduced um programming for families who qualify, the families that are paying the full price would be paying $285 next year. That's to cover the full cost of the program that already exists. And so, um, I've been visiting I visited with, uh, Bayport City Council and Stillwater City Council. and I am here visiting with you about uh would there be a consideration for levying recreation dollars as we already spoke about tonight? Not nearly at the level of of adding a staff member to your organization by any means, but a small amount that could be used to supplement or bring down the cost of that program to make it more accessible to all families. So, I'm just putting it out there for your consideration. I don't expect you to to have any answers, but um I ask you to think about it. All right. >> Okay. >> Any questions for me about that? >> We um has uh any of the other councils responded to that? They >> have not >> as of yet. >> No, I have uh we have so I have also been visiting with uh uh service clubs in the area. So, the uh Afton Bayport Lions Afton Bay Port Lakeland Lions Club uh has provided us with $1,000 a year for the next five years. So, they're the first club to step up and say we're going to support this effort. I've um approached the both American Legions in Bayport and Stillwater um a variety of different organizations. Rotary, that type of thing is on our list to visit with as well to see what we can generate there. Now, this the superintendent at this point in time is trying to find ways to make sure that access is a priority. So he has found a small pocket of money to still cover the cost of transportation because you can imagine if it's right after school and those students are needing to go to a competition. Their parents are at work, they're not going to be able to drive them there. So we still will have transportation. All the sports that we currently offer, we intend to continue to offer as long as we get enrollment, sufficient enrollment to maintain them. >> What's considered sufficient enrollment? >> 20. We would you might squeeze in at an 18 but right generally speaking 20. >> Well, I would be in support of a contribution personally as one member of the city council. I think investing in our youth is always a good thing. Of course, you know, we have to turn how much in, you know, where we would find it, but I think um in in long-term use of our community, it would be a good investment personally. >> Yeah, I would agree with that. I think you can never I personally I think you can never go wrong with investing in our youth and having sports and organized events more accessible to our to our future. So I think that's cool. >> Thank you. [clears throat] >> I'm probably going to be the the lone on this. I love sports. I absolutely love the idea of this. I would personally be happy to contribute my own funds to something like this. I don't feel comfortable asking the city to pay for it. Um, I I just I've been pretty consistent with that across anything where it's kind of like funding for these types of situations. And like I said, I I personally would donate to something like this out of my own funds, but I don't feel comfortable asking um residents who maybe don't think that this is necessary. Um, but I do really appreciate it and I I love the idea and I want I I want to see these kids be able to play sports because I I know what an impact that can have. >> Um, so I hope we can figure out a way. I just I I'm just being upfront with kind of where I stand in that. >> Well, Matt, if you donated enough to say you wouldn't have >> Well, I guarantee you I'm not going to be able to do that. So, I can tell you that. Do we have an idea of how much >> that you said it was a small amount, but I mean do we know how much? >> That would be completely up to you. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> How much you guys are looking for in >> Oh, I see what you're saying. Um, you know, ultimately every dollar will buy down the cost. So, >> we're not really stating a particular amount. We would really just appreciate it helps. >> Yeah. Yeah. We had uh,00 students or registrations this last year. So you can imagine $1,000 is a dollar less. >> Sure. >> Right. And so you can do the equation. >> Okay. >> And personally, I I I kind of sit on the fence on this one because uh while I understand the school district, I grew up in a school district. I had to pay sports fees. >> They've got a budget to manage. Oftent times there are mandates that they're giving getting from the state that are unfunded. having uh family members that have worked in the education system. Um but every resident in Lake Elmo >> pays a school district levy >> cost. >> So it almost feels like for the school sports it's a double dipping from the families in each district. So for me it's [snorts] kind of like yeah well now I'm just going to take it from the city to handed over for a school thing. Well, that's not necessarily the city's responsibility that I think of. So, it's and I grew up playing, you know, all the sports I could, right? So, I get it and and it is important to youth and be part of a team or gain some confidence and do things of that nature. That's where I I struggle on that one. I'm not sold either way. >> We had the um Tony franchise fees to parks and maybe we could skim a small amount off of that to help these programs. My concern is, you know, children can't afford to participate because families just don't have the resource. I pick between eating or playing in the soccer league, you know, >> but there there are some organizations that do help out those families that don't have those. I mean I mean you recognize that within the community >> youth advantage. >> Yeah. >> Youth advantage things of that nature. >> Given that free and reduced lunch no longer exists as a data point. What data points being used? >> It actually still exists. It's called educational be benefit. Yes. And that we would still be so we will have to charge. So free. Right now we're estimating at $25. So they would pay $25 of the total fee. and then are reduced we're estimating $75. And then the where we're the part that we haven't decided on fully yet is that um full price and that we're trying to buy down that as much as possible. The the superintendent would like to see it no more than $200 per participant. And ultimately um so you had mentioned the funding. So part of why this is um a challenge for the school district uh and you mentioned the unfunded mandates that's absolutely a part of this and then there's been some other legislative actions that have reduced the funding that we're receiving. It's general fund dollars so it's dollars that otherwise are spent in the classroom. And so um whereas the district has been using those funds right now and directing it because they value the middle school sports they're at a point now where they can no longer afford to do that. um they are cutting 40 teachers for instance um this next year. So >> it's it's it's cutting deep. So but I I can appreciate everything you're saying. >> I'm just here to ask if there's a way that you could see using because it is related to recreation consider using some >> I wonder if there's ways that we could reduce again maybe it's not possible for middle schools but I always look at as like is there a way we can reduce their costs by making our facilities less expensive to use or getting out of the way essentially to make things cheaper. And I maybe there's no way here, but I I guess that's more where >> I feel like I is, >> you know, representing the residents. That's where I'd feel more comfortable saying, hey, like this is how we could try to bring the price down versus saying, "Hey, I'm going to take money from everybody to help subsidize this." Which again, I want these kids to play sports. Like I don't want to sound like the Grinch here. I >> I think it's a great thing. It's just how do we do that? Um how do we do that in a way where we're representing some people who maybe don't think that's >> the best use of the tax dollars. >> Right. So right now community education because we are a part of the school district school district we do not um we are not charged for the facilities that we use. There is no cost associated with that. Um so it's really the people and uh transportation. Those are the two costs associated with it right now. The coaches and the buses. >> The buses are a massive driver >> of the costs. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> True. And >> I do agree with you, Matt. I think that after listening to you and the mayor about where is this money coming from, we don't want to double dip on on those funds. I think there has to be some sort of solution where we're not making everybody pay for Maybe they don't want it. So, >> like you were saying, if we could reallocate some funds from like a different parks fund or something like that that could help, I would be in favor of that. I think, you know, every time I hear of a new levy and the school [clears throat] district's gotten their referendums pushed through for things because they've used it wisely for the most part in my opinion, but everybody cringes when they see that like, "Oh, what's what's that going to cost me?" And then so if you as a city standpoint and then you say, "Wow, I'm going to charge a levy to the residents." I think you see, well, then you're just taking it from there and I'm paying it over here, but I'm still paying that much to the school district levy. Um, it it really starts to add up for families. >> Yeah. If we take like Nick's saying, >> we can see that >> some of that franchise fee money that we dedicated to parks and say, well, it's already going to parks and we say, you know, that's recreation. So if we say let's just I'll pick a number of the 250,000 we'll take 10,000 and dedicate it to the community yet programs that provides programs in Lake Elmo for you know using our facilities to support our children >> and it'll help kids get to those parks too. >> Yeah. >> Would this be specifically this would be for middle school sports? would be funding students who are going to Still Water Middle School who potentially don't live in Lake >> or Lakeland Oakland >> and and and a lot of them are a lot of them are our residents and >> so but also some that aren't right potentially and so >> again I >> just trying to figure out how to balance that I guess from my perspective >> and my point I'm with you know with the mayor and Nick I mean we don't have to levy a new tax we could do some allocation Again, I'm both in the franchise because it's something new to us and you know, we we put it into parks as we'd be using it for recreation purposes. Same use just, you know, a different column that would go into or perhaps if we go ahead with our um broadband system and we get a fee out of the broadband. >> So, a little different target, >> little different, you know, >> I need to think about it more, I guess, from where >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, and I I think I've said this before. Well, you know, we are a city, city of Lake Elmo, but I also there have been things before this city that have impacted the greater community% >> and and and I think that to the part that the city can be a part of the larger community or help the larger community, um I think everybody benefits from that. our neighbors and our neighbors uh our our residents have, you know, cousins, brothers, uncles have that. I mean, it's it's I mean, we don't have a wall. We're not like Roenberg, Germany, right? I mean, >> roads come in and out. >> I just I think it's a little different if it's like an asset that is in in our city limits, right? I think potentially a little bit different. But again, I I wanna I guess if I'm the only one that's kind of that I want to keep on thinking about a little bit because I just wanna I think we do need to think about it. >> We can continue this discussion during our budget discussions. Yeah, >> I'll make a note >> and they asked for us to think about we have three school districts. >> Yeah, technically four, but one of them doesn't that's another story. But we have three traditional school districts in the city of Lake Elmo, >> right? Yeah, let's chew on it. >> Well, I appreciate your consideration. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Yes. >> All right. So, maybe maybe we can continue. Do you want to go through the priorities and we can see, you know, revisit the other priorities that we heard during that um joint workshop and see what the council's thinking about that? >> Sure. Um so parks commission uh those six categories were recreational program which we talked about uh increased community engagement, securing funding, long range strategic planning, coordinating, developing and implementing a city trail network and environmental stewardship. Um, after listening to that workshop two or three times, um, what I got from that, uh, what I heard staff say, uh, priorities would be secure funding, um, community engagements, offering more events [cough] in the [clears throat] city. um collaborate with community partners to utilize Lake Elmo parks for programming like the school district community ad and then to evaluate the park's master plan to determine implementation feasibility and priorities. Is that an accurate >> Yeah, I think for the most part we're [clears throat] you know I have a couple of those things on the docket. The one that uh uh I don't know that has really been addressed very much is funding development, grant administration, and maybe the environmental stewardship and sustainability. And I'm open to being told I'm absolutely wrong, but those are the two areas that kind of stick out to me. Other than we've dedicated some franchise fees if we're talking about funding development. >> Yeah. >> But I don't know that we've really explored money grant opportunities. I know that they're out there. >> Yeah. Currently, um we do have staff member in the planning department who um focuses on sustainability. um what we do do with the the green team. Ashley did provide an update to the council and commissions on on her role, but she has been focused more on sustainability grants um in that realm. So, um, you know, with that, um, I guess it's kind of a question, um, additional bandwidth to be, um, uh, aware of and planning for, uh, more recreation, outdoor, um, park stuff grants. um from what I know about them they uh some of them will have you know the application will be very lengthy you will have to have a plan in place you have to maybe do community engagement you know you're probably all familiar with grants right so currently we don't have anyone doing that um as you know Adam is our um parks leazison and so in talking to Adam his position is assistant uh public works director. And so just learning how how he became the parks leaison and then everything that falls under that um came to be back when we had a planning staff member leave and then we were hiring an assistant and then that's what that was going to be. Sounds like maybe temporarily. I'm not sure. Um but it's still with him. And so when talking to him um you know being that parks lays on he's researching you know this to provide staff reports um one thing he hasn't really talked about too much trail connections. Um he's not proactively planning trail connections is if one presents itself and it's tied to it would work well with a street project then okay we'll we'll move forward with that. um the long-term planning, the discussions that I've heard both at parks and city council about what are we going to do with our park amenities in the future just because it has a playground. Is that what we should plan on replacing in whatever is 25 years or not? Um that's kind of a a new new thing um for him to be planning. He hasn't, you know, that that's kind of a shift in in thinking right now. community engagement. He's been doing it. I think he can um with our planning department now in our new tool, Poco, we can um partner a little bit more on that. But also, just like Jennifer said, um the other item about the parks master plan and determining the implementation and feasibility and priorities, nobody's really managing that. And I'll say this because um right now what he is doing takes about 25% of his time. And so when we're looking at um developing him and the needs of a public works department and a true assistant is really um having him focus more on long-term planning for staffing along along with the director being part of budgeting outside of just parks and being not just so focused on parks. So, there's some other um ideas that he has for things that [clears throat] um are on his list, but he hasn't gotten to yet as well. But >> sometimes we won't get to those things given the size of our staff and the budget that we have. And >> I'm okay with that if it takes a little bit longer. I'm not trying to put the >> cart in front of the horse or anything. I understand that you can't do everything all at once. Um, >> we we had talked back in March or so about this about the safe streets and roads grant to connect some of our trails up. That would be a grant we could be, you know, looking into. >> Yeah. So, we um specifically for your question about the trails um it was tied to um around the new school area. that one actually the county is um looking into um doing trail projects a county le one and so they were looking into some grants for that as well but um currently where it's at I have engineering working with the county on that and um right now the county is leading that project and then they just they missed uh this year they were going to apply for a grant um they also have to come back to the city they just weren't ready yet for that so so the county is doing it That was just one that happened to pop up and and I know, mayor, you pointed out the safe routes to school has the school has to be open. That's another potential. >> So weird. >> It's so dumb. >> I mean, but [snorts] as as you walk by, we get all these trails that come to an end. >> Yeah. You know, >> well, you know, I think that's that's one thing that I kind of agree with at the time. Uh again, I'll say that with additional business comes additional uh dollars that can be spent on additional amenities. Any additional amenities at this point that get put on are basically raising residential taxes on on rooftops. So as we have development goes, the practice has been try and make those connections as many as possible to the trails that are in place. >> I think when you just start trying to go by right away and things it gets very expensive to connect networks just to connect a network and um while it is important again I think it's something that takes time and you don't just >> yes >> snap your fingers and it's done. Well, you're the me or just snap. It'll happen. >> Yeah. Right. >> So, that's my opinion. >> That has been kind of a an interesting one. I feel like for me, too, of like with the trails, you know, you hear the conversation of like, we want growth to slow down. And then that same person will say, well, and we want trails. It's like, well, >> you know, which do you do you want? If you want the trails, then we're going to, like you said, either you're going to pay more for it or we need more development, right? So, it's finding that balance and I I I don't know. I think this is what you were saying of, you know, yeah, like all of this stuff is great and I want to work towards it. And I think maybe this is something that we have to do a better job of like when we're setting goals is saying, yeah, like these are things that would be nice, but some of this stuff if it doesn't happen in the next year or the next two years, that is okay. If we don't have the staff for it, if we don't have the resources for it, >> that's fine. Then we Is that what we did with pri prioritization in our goals meetings? Didn't we put priorities on these >> level one, two, three, whatever? >> Maybe another way to say >> this came up after. >> Yeah. >> So then when we had that joint workshop and council was saying there are some priorities. So that's why we brought back to say okay >> these are priorities. >> H how serious should we be about these priorities? Well, I guess that we need to rein ourselves in and stick to what we agreed to with the people that were in strategic, whether it was >> parks commission members and planning commission members and some community members there. how much I was under one of the reasons I was really wanting Bolton Mink to be our engineer was the the possibility that staff that they have are always looking for grants for their for their customers whether they are engineering grants, public work grants, park grants. [snorts] >> Yeah. So that that is actually something that I've been working with the engineer team on as well. um that they do they are engaging with their their grant um specialists to talk about and I I asked them to look at you're they know our projects and so then to focus on what type of grant opportunities would exist and so that is a new um kind of last few months a discussion and so that is um in the works and that is my expectation >> because I mean I think we're all aware like grants are great for one-time expenditures They're horrific for operations, >> right? >> You start doing things where now it's dependent upon grant dollars keep coming in and but yeah, for if there's a grant down the road that helps to pay for a shade structure, fantastic. But I >> or a trail connection >> or a trail connection, a one-time trail connection. But I I fully agree with both of you that the trail system absent of it being is it the greenway? >> Right. The central corridor I think. >> Yeah. which is a massive project with external funding which is a 20-year project. Absent of that, we are not in a position to suddenly start adding trails in places where it's miles apart. Well, and I I do believe if there are trails or amenities that are along a county roadway, the city is expected to pick up that tab for the trail section or, you know, we cost participate if there's curb and gutter and things like that. So there there's going to be a conversation when Manning does get to be four lane in that stretch that that will come up like that. I get that question very often. >> Just put the trail on the West Lakeland side because they don't have any cost participation. >> We we can push for that. >> Well, I think you know on the trails piece I think if we we get an opportunity to look at the trails we have and say what will be a strategic plan to start connecting some of them. We can't do all of them. Yes. But you know and what why would we pick this section like maybe you know in in your area connecting it to the downtown? Yes. Provide access to the downtown or like around the new school connecting that up to you know we have a trail that comes from the Royal up to Lake Elmo Avenue and you got a trail along the school about halfway down to Lake Alban Avenue and then there's nothing. Yes. >> And then you got the trail going to the east along County Road 10 and it just ends. >> Yes. And so we have a bunch of those kind of things, but picking out those segments that would make some sense but not be prohibitive to connect up and say we want to connect those because there's a defined benefit in doing that that we can identify. I think that when you look at these, we are doing a lot of these things already, not doing all of them, but you know, we have the community engagement. We just talked about pole code and we talked about what we're going to do with our 70 some acre park and getting that in there and um you know, >> our program, we just talked about programming tonight. >> So, we're kind of inching in on them, but we have so many things on our plate that we we do have to talk about, you know, what are our priorities as well. You also added the annual city celebration. So, community engagement opportunities. Another thing, another thing that we put in here just >> Oh, we did add that, didn't we? >> I know that. >> Just like a just keeps digging on that one. >> And we added that securing funding. When we did our uh franchise fee last year, we dedicate 250,000 to parks. >> Yeah. >> So, we have done a little bit of everything. you have one thing I want to talk about just quickly touch on and I added this into the packet just to gauge where you were at when you were talking about you know community engagement and providing opportunities for the community to come together whether it's programming or this annual event just an example of another city that has someone that plans all these little teeny events and so um I think I've mentioned to a couple of you before like the movie in the parks or the fire and ice at the ice game so because I just trying to see like where are you at? You know, where are we going? So that was >> I I could see I'm going to stop where I'm saying um to your point earlier, yes, the lowhanging fruit, maybe even the mediumhanging fruit of a couple each year, which has been the case so far, like public works the last couple years did a couple of connections here and there. um what are the ones that are identified that are easiest, less easy, medium, and hard, which then can drive legislative priorities. if there's one that's really helps the community in terms of driving people to a business area or is bringing them to well we already got the grant for it but if it was you know from county 14 into Sunfish Lake Park for that trail ones where it is expensive but there's a really big value gain then that drives our legislative priorities so it >> I don't see it as you know the highest priority in terms of identifying but that is something and I could see it being in the planning department too and because they have the GIS systems, they are the planners. They know the properties just as much as parks does, but what are some of those connections and to to let us know, hey, here's how many of these are really hard and so we're aware like these are the ones that just aren't going to happen unless a developer comes in and builds it, but here are the ones that, you know, we can have a conversation on. that delve into what you wanted to talk about. >> Got it. That that provides more clear direction. Good. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> I could see that >> done with that topic. Oh, >> okay. We're moving on to uh council pay, mayor and council members council salaries, but really it's a stipend, right? To be technically correct. >> I'll lead to HR. Uh are you >> Is it a stipen? I've always been told it's a stipen, >> Jennifer. >> That's a great question. Yeah, [laughter] >> whatever it is. >> You did have to submit I >> Yes, >> I know. >> Yes. So, >> where's my benefits? >> I guess depends on who's looking at it whether you're >> Can we include Para in this? >> All right. So basically we know that uh the basic information is nothing's happened since uh an approval of increase in 2012 that had uh went into effect one one of 2013. Um, it went from $3,900 roughly to 6,250 for mayor and 3130 to 4860 for council members. Um, I did ask to bring this uh forward uh and it has to be done in an election year because I think uh anybody that says they haven't had a an increase in stipen salary, whatever you want to call it, for 13 years would be out of their mind. And uh while I've been accused of that uh in the past, I choose not to go down that road anymore. So I'd like to hear thoughts on on on this item. >> You know the one um I did put together a histogram just to kind of get more visual thing of where we fit in. Um but also on the first set of cities I ran the medians on both and the because the average is a nice number but the median is you know half or higher half are lower. The median for the mayor of these in that first group of cities is 7200 and the median for city council is 6,000. If we go to the second set of cities the median for mayor is 9350 and the median for council is um 7100. So those, you know, are two other numbers you might want to >> look at because it puts us half are higher and half are lower in both situations. >> I I did do a little uh AI search using Claude just to be fully uh transparent on that. You know, it said basically uh the key factors to weigh in that there's no raise since 2012 13 years using the Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI, cumulative inflation from 2013 to 2026 is roughly 38 to 40%. Just keeping pace with inflation would put the mayor at 8650 and council at 6700. It talks about comparable city data. Uh what I did is I asked sometimes you can say well these cities are the same size but we all know that Lake Elmo goes through a rapid amount of development and work that's happening that's going on. So, it's not the same to say that a city that is built out has the same amount going on that the city of Lake Elmo has. And and so I asked it to take that into consideration. Um, you know, it does say Lake Elmo's growth context. Lake Elmo has been one of the fastest growing cities in the east metro with significant development pressure, infrastructure decisions, and increased council workload. I think I can attest to that. [clears throat] The context supports landing at or above the comparable city midpoint, not below it. Um, it also talks about setting salaries too low discourages participation and excuse representation toward those who can afford to serve without compensation. I mean, we we talk to that about our city [snorts] staff, too. We want to attract talent. We want to pay for that talent. I think you need to say the same thing. You know, you don't want somebody to say, "Boy, I'd really like to work on the city council, but geez, you know, that's not I've got to work overtime on my regular job just to make ends meet." So, um, that's just some of the information that was was in there. I That's glad you did that. I didn't think about the kind of the last point you made there of it can be prohibitive to somebody who, you know, can I spend three hours on a Tuesday night for very minimal amount or do I need to go get a second job and it does exclude them from that? You know, I guess I wasn't really think of of that um in this context. I think those are some interesting points. Not that this is going to make or break anybody's, you know, this is, it's not meant to. If you're if if we're here doing that for this then, >> yeah, that was kind of like me coming into this tonight. That was more of my thought is um I I don't think the financial side of it should be the reason you do this in the first place. But >> that can als you know the the amount of time that it takes to do this. So, I think that's a good point. I guess I just would I I also very much agree with the point of comparing um a city based just on population is not a very good comparison because what Lake Elmo's having to do right now is very different. Like then you said, a city that's fully developed. Um, again, not that they aren't having to do hard work and do work, but it's it's just >> there is uh probably I I'd have to imagine a little bit less um research, a little bit less groundwork that has to get done. I think that is a really good point. And then you bring into that, that's probably the time you really want uh the knowledgeable people, people who are really driven um to be in there and and doing the job as we're trying to to build out the city and to develop. So I think those are all good points. I guess honestly coming in I was kind of thinking I I don't really have a concern if this goes up or not simply because of right >> I don't think this should be something that you do for the financial side of it and I don't think anybody is because of you know where it's at obviously >> I'm always amazed at the number of people that say oh you're the mayor of Lake Elmo >> and then uh then they find out that that's not my only gig. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I'm like, "No, no, no. >> Nobody's doing this full time." You know, it's just and that's on purpose. >> To that question, to that point in the last what, six years now? >> Yeah. I have lost track of how many times people will literally laugh in disbelief at I think it's a stipen technically but at the the amount because they they know full well like you could have a council member who literally does the bare minimum does nothing right and you can have ones who are you know doing seven 10 hours a week you can have those that are doing more the mayor's job I I'm sorry it is a job I know for a fact the amount of work that our mayor does. It's more than I do. And I I appreciate that he gets the calls at midnight and I don't, but [snorts] that is a a an an additional piece that again I it's not that it's an embarrassment per se how low they are, but it's unacceptable. And I I appreciate that this is being discussed. I whether it's Monaceel or Rogers as very comparable ones. We know it's not Woodbury, we know it's not, you know, uh St. Paul where it those kind of those are full times. >> It's not Cajrove and we can have a we do this conversation all the time when we do we've had multiple labor studies for wage compensation for our positions and reclasses. Um, but I I do think a change has to happen and I don't there is no perfect number. Like there there's no way to say here's what shall be and that's a perfect number. I mean I wrote down Monaceel and Rogers and technically you average those two out it's 8,200 for mayor and 7,000 for council. It's defensible. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It's defensible. And I guess that's I'm in that area, but I I think the mayor should he be even higher than that because I I know the amount of work that he's putting in for it. But again, you could have a mayor down the road who does who doesn't answer those calls, who's not out on sites talking with residents, who's not speaking with businesses to help alleviate things before it gets to staff. I mean, essentially, you're acting as a fire suppressant. One question I I did have Nicole and maybe this is a question for um Sarah is um and I always thought like and and the legislature did it because sometimes it just becomes um a political pingpong ball with with gas tax, right? So they just indexed it to the inflation. Is there anything to just say why don't you just index that from this point to the CPI and then you don't have to bring it up again and it just rotates every two years. >> I'm not aware of that. But also this is in our city code. So it would be an ordinance change, >> right? But I mean if somebody it's just a thought. I don't know what other people then you don't you don't have to bring it up. Right. It's not it's it's like we all say, "Well, the Congress just gave themselves another raise." And I'm sure some people will say the same thing about council, right? But it's I mean, come on, it's been 2012. >> You may the index that we're commonly used in government is the American city and county runs a municipal cost index. Um I tracked that since it began like 1976. I have all the index numbers from the beginning. Um they changed the basis in 82. So you got to go 82 forward. But over the last 10 years the average annual average index has gone up 3.58%. >> Okay. >> Excuse me. 3.8 3.58 I got to collect it. And so you know if we were that that would be a better number to use than the CPI because it reflects the actual cost government has seen an increase in. And so if you if you run that out um based on our current the mayor's salary would be about 9873 and the council will be 7678. So say 10,7700. I mean, I could see it being we have it as either and you use the lower one ju just so that at least there's the emphasis because the CPA CPI is also a very good inflationary >> the CPI is context 40% of housing makes up the CPI costs. So, it's not really relevant to, you know, a lot of expenditures. That's that's the downfall of the CPIU. >> True. I'm I don't know that we want to put it. I guess when I threw out the 8650 and 6700, I think that's defensible. I think it falls it's not on the low side. It's not the high one. It's it's in the somewhere in the middle there. But the median of those larger group of cities is 9350 and 7100. >> Yeah. >> So we're on a few hundred dollars either way. Yeah. whether you use the American city and county, the CPI, you know, averages it or medians, it's it's all kind of falls in that couple hundred dollars one way or the other. >> And I would just hope that, you know, if if you can't index it to something, whether it's the American City C County Index or whatever, that future council member, it doesn't take 13 years for somebody to say something And I think the inflation index looking at that is a really good idea. But Lake Elmo 13 years ago is far cry from where we're at now. So 6700 is great for 13 years ago. >> But then like is it closer to that 7700 7200 and I feel so uncomfortable being like this is how much of a raise we should get you know. >> Right. Exactly. >> It's it's a >> there's no perfect. >> Oh yeah. Yep. There isn't. No. Like I say, what I what I like about the median is it falls in that large group of cities and says we're right in the middle. >> We're not the highest paid. We're not the lowest paid. We're right in the middle. >> Well, and this is why the legislature created a legislative salary commission because for literally years and years and years, the salaries didn't change. And then it got to a point because it's not a part-time job. It's not a full-time job either, but it's enough of a job where it truly hindered those who can be there because it's it's a half job. And so they essentially exported, I'm not advocating this, just reinforcing it is an awkward conversation. It absolutely is, which is probably one of the reasons why it hasn't changed, but they exported and said we want this commission to do it so it's away from us to create some distance, but yeah, I I appreciate that it's being discussed. It it needs to be discussed. >> I'd be fine with that. I mean, I don't Yeah, I guess mine was just where I was at. I'm okay with whatever people decide. >> Where is again, mayor? I I'm sorry. >> I think I had it at [sighs] 86.50, mayor, and council at 67. I think it's a few hundred. Well, $500 difference. What you got? >> Yeah. Not trying to split hairs. Let me just round numbers. 9,000 mayor, 7,000 city council. Easy. >> I like that. >> I like to round numbers. >> Yeah. Nine and seven. >> All right. >> Okay. >> You cool with that, man? I know it's not what your >> You know, >> he was hoping for 20, but >> yeah, you know, an extra zero on there. [laughter] >> Well, then I then I tell him it's my fulltime job, right? Drive Nicole nuts. I would do this for zero. >> Well, and honestly for those watching, every one of us for the amount of time we put in >> our hourly jobs, we get far more than what the hourly is then for this. Even with this change, I was doing the math. It's not even comparable. No, >> it's not even close. >> And I think if you go to go to the histograms, which really shows you where we line up, um, you know, it's a frequency diagram and tells you how many how many people are in different brackets. Like we go to the the fourth on the Lake Elmo city salary we're at 4860. You can see there's only two two cities that pay less than that and you know and there are 11 14 16 18 that pay more and so we're we're on the very low end. That was a purpose because that graphically shows where you sit relative to everybody else. >> Sure. >> Do you have what you need? >> Yep. >> Besides it sounds impressive when you say histogram, you know. I thought you were saying something else, but um I think that's all the business we had for this evening. Correct. >> That's it. >> So, I'll adjourn this meeting at 8:05. Thank you everybody. >> I did get to go to uh Patriotic Memorial on Saturday. This nice little sticker for my computer. >> Oh my goodness. Eat any