30call into order the December 8th, 2025 uh meeting for the Lake Elmo PlanningCommission. Uh first and on the agenda is pledge ofallegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of theUnited States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nationunder God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.[clears throat] >> All right. Thank you. Uh, next item isto approve the minutes. I need a motion to approve the minutes.>> We need to make a change. >> We will. We'll have the motion. I have a motion to approve the minutesfrom 11:105.>> I make a motion to approve the minutes with one amendment to those minutes andthat would be I don't was it >> I was chair. Yeah, I would assume thatyou called the meeting. >> I haven't called the meeting>> with with one uh one amendment to the minutes is that um>> Commissioner Ray Camp uh called to order the meeting.>> We have a second. Second that. >> All right. [clears throat]>> All in favor? >> I>> I. >> The meeting minutes with set amendmentis approved. >> Next item. Uh public hearing. We don'thave any public hearings today. >> Mr. Chair, can we get a motion toapprove the agenda? >> Oh, correct. Thank you. We[clears throat] need a motion to approve the agenda. Ahead of myself.>> Motion to approve the agenda of Monday, December 8th, 2025. Lake Elmo PlanningCommission. >> Thank you. I'll second.in favor. >> I I the agenda is approved.>> Now moving on to uh new and finished businessuh when the first item is short-term rentals. All right. Good evening.Tonight we're going to talk about short-term rentals. And this format willbe a little bit different. It'll be similar like a council workshop to getinput. This is part of the work plan for 2025.[clears throat] So as you recall at the beginning we this planning commission asa housekeeping to include non winter occupied umuses and to move them into the bed and breakfast. This was pulled out and thenwe went ahead and had did a workshop on November 12th with the council and thecouncil gave us some feedback on how what they would like to see.So, just to take a step back, the city currently does not allow short-termrentals in any zoning districts. We do allow uh bed and breakfast in mostresidential mixeduse districts with the standards being owner occupied singlefamily homes not to exceed five rooms. Um there's parking requirements. Theyare required to have insurance and a permit for two years.So the issue before the commission is should the commission considershort-term rentals and if so should the zoning code be updated to allow them? Umwhere should they be located? doesn't really um certain zoning districts,would it be more appropriate? Lot sizes? Um should there be a conditional usepermit? Also, if you want to approve them, should there be a limit on howmany? And then, we'll talk about this a little bit um in the presentation, butum should they regulate as an R1 or R3 occupancy?So, currently Washington County requirements short-term rentals meet thedefinition of a hotel motel per state statute.The hotel motel um is basically any place where you haveoccupancy under a week. We'll talk about this more in detail [clears throat] withwhat's a hotel and what's a short-term rental um in terms of the days and thatsort of [snorts] thing. So, currently Washington County is licensingjurisdiction for food pools, lodging. They require licenses for short-termrentals and bed and breakfast in the county. The county performs theinspections for all lodging establishments that they license. Theyalso notify local fire inspectors uh during plan review for new lodgingestablishments. So the fire classification, this iswhere it's a little bit tricky. The state fire code um basically is the cutoff between a hotel when it comes to an R3 and R1 occupancy at uh less than sixguest rooms. So the state fire code is different than the building code.So the building type what [clears throat] is an R3 occupancy? Soan R3 occupancy is a classification under building code. It typicallyincludes residential structures where the occupants are primarily permanent[clears throat] in nature. It also includes certain care facilities,congregate living facilities and transient lodging with five or fewerguest rooms and 10 or fewer occupants. So that's basically your typical home.And then an R1 occupancy contains sleeping units where the occupants areprimarily transient in nature. It includes transient lodging with morethan 10 occupants, hotels and motel. R1 structures must meet fire code and ADAaccessibility requirements. So what that means is if you're converting a house toan R1 from an R3 to R1, high cost improvements would likely be necessaryfor an existing single family home to meet the requirements.Then what are neighboring cities doing? So, Stillwater um does permit short-termrentals. Um it app their short-term rental license applies to hotels, motel,bed and breakfast, state license, residential care facilities, and nursinghomes. It requires a city council approval. The license lasts three years.It's not transferable. Um the newly licensed rentals are inspected by bothfire and building. Uh short-term rentals are only permitted in specific zoningdistricts. Most of them are downtown in the historic district, but no more than50 licenses shall be approved outside the business district. Last time Ichecked, I don't believe there are any available licenses. If there are,there's only like one. So, they have performance standards. Youcannot host events u more than three unregistered guests. There's maintenancestandards. You have enhanced parking. There's also a nuisance standard. Thisis not uncommon where it's a three strikes you're out. So, uh, if after thethird substantiated, um, complaint violation within a 12-month period, youcan have the, um, your license revoked. So, just to be clear with Still Water,too, Still Water, the R3 occupancy is only for um, owner occupied properties,five or fewer guest rooms, and 10 or fewer total occupants, and it's a singlefamily home. An R1 category would have to be converted to an R1 ifit's in a home if there's no permanent resident or greater than five guestrooms or greater than 10 total occupants. Uh condos or mixedusebuildings are also have to be R1. They're typically R1 anyway. You'll seeshort-term rentals in multif family buildings. So when you see thesethroughout the country, um they meet those standards of R1.Sprinkler system doesn't kick in until they're greater than 4,500 feet, though. Oak Park Heights. They're permitted inall residential districts with a conditional use permit. Uh the rentalmust have a state license for lodging. Permits are not transferable, are notrequired to be owner occupied, must be a detached single family home, and may notbe closer located closer than 500 ft from another transient lodge. That couldbe a motel or an Airbnb. They have performance standards withfire building code, limit of three transient guests per bedroom or limit ofthree bedrooms for transient lodging. Um, dining shall not be open to thepublic and then you have to have additional off- streetet parking. So,two off- streetet parking spaces shall be provided plus one for each bedroomover two bedrooms. They also have a nuisance excessivenoise report to the city. In violation, you could lose your um license.Woodberry does not allow short-term rentals. So,>> how many go back I'm sorry. >> [clears throat]>> How many does Oakdale have? Do you have any idea>> the number of short-term rentals? >> Yeah,>> I don't know. >> All right.>> Y >> Thank you. Sorry.>> Woodberry. So Woodberry um [clears throat] does that just doesn'tallow short-term rentals? I think under 30 days. And then same thing with Hugo. Hugo'sthe same way. It doesn't allow short-term rentals.So the city council workshop discussion we had the same questions essentially umregarding location zoning limits on how many but um just to kind of cover thatit was four of the city council members were there one was not in favor ofadding short-term rentals the three others were is interested in theconversation and and asking questions. Um, sobasically some of the comments were they wanted to adopt regulations to protectneighbors from nuisance such as noise and larger gatherings, limit the numberof lodging rooms, limit the number of guests, limit the number of total thetotal number of short-term rentals within the city. That was pretty muchthe discussion comments that they [clears throat] had. Other comment thatwas discussed was potentially if you live in a subdivision, your HOA wouldnot allow short-term rentals too. That's something that an HOA could coulddecide. So, we're here tonight because this ison the work plan. We have a pretty good idea of where the council stands. Um,you know, this could be a contentious issue, so we wanted to bring it to thecouncil first just to see um what their thoughts were. So, really opening up thediscussion on any of these items. um you know your thoughts on if they should beallowed if it matters the zoning district lot size would you like to seethem in rural areas not in rural areas in the village would you like to seethem in multif family apartments or not in multif family apartments that's uhthe big question and also a limit should they be limited in how many if anybodyhas any comments >> what's current demand I mean are wetrying to solve for a problem that doesn't existI think that if you look at Airbnb, I think there were 12 listings when I livewhen I search. So, you have about 12 listings. Uh we have about five bed andbreakfast permits. Um when we brought it forward a year ago, we haven't heardcomplaints. So, it was one way to kind of simplify the the permitting to saythat these could be allowed anywhere. Um obviously, there were some concerns. So,and we we continue now in terms of regulating. There are some concerns withwith doing that, but um I haven't seen much in terms of demand. Um peoplecalling us. >> We anecdotally, we hear that the demandis potentially from Still Water, right? There's events in Still Water. Peoplewant to stay here. [clears throat] >> I think in general, short-term rentalsare great if you have a larger house with multiple bedrooms, so people don'thave to purchase multiple hotel rooms. it seems to to be, you know, anadvantage of a short-term rental. Um, but no, it's just more of a a permittingbecause the permitting does not allow for um non-owner occupied bed andbreakfast. So, we were just seeing if we could permit this and this is whatstarted this process. >> Did you happen to look up Woodberry onAirbnb and see if there were any listed there?>> I'm sure there are. >> And that's what I'm thinking. Like, theydon't allow them, but I guarantee you could probably find 20 at least on onthere. So, it's it's going to happen, you know, whether it's permitted or not.And the enforcement of that is, I think, is what's difficult, especially forstaff >> to have to, you know, enforce it all.>> Um, I should we just start with number one, and we can all weigh in on shouldthey be allowed or not? >> I mean, in my opinion, I I think weshould allow short-term rentals. Anyone else is welcome to chime in.>> I I'd like to know where are they right now in the city. I have that information>> and you know specifically so >> and what kind of issues>> how many >> well I found between Airbnb website andVerbbo there are uh a total of 11 >> in the city and [clears throat]um three of them are owner occupied and I also looked up the bed andbreakfast permit application and it says the property at which the bed andbreakfast operates is a private owner occupied residence. Guests muststay not to exceed 30 days. They're signing something that says here thatI've read and understand the conditions under which I may use my property as abed and breakfast as set forth by this application and city code section154310A. Um I agree to abide by these conditions.Failure to abide by these conditions will result in cancellation of thepermit. So, if they've signed that and they and they're not really an owneroccupant, uh it's non homesteaded, they've already fraudulently[clears throat] signed this these this document. But>> I mean, there's a good chance that those 11 didn't sign that document.>> Yeah. Well, there's I have uh I have um of the 11, there are seven that areregistered, four of them that are not registered,and five of the seven are non-h homesteaded,and three of the four that are that are not registered are non- homesteaded.>> Irregard, it comes down to enforcement capability.I feel [clears throat] like we're not able to enforce the bed and breakfast.So, I'm not sure we can take on >> something on a level of>> I I can't imagine that requiring licensing and the fee for licensingwould be enough to employ staff to follow up in compliance. I mean,>> it's easy enough. I mean, when you when they I think one thing that you couldadd to I mean, I'm just speaking of the bed and breakfast here because I'm opento those. I think people that own their home, it's a primary residence in theirhomestead, they should be able to have these.>> That's current code. And so I'm not I'm not against thatpiece of it. And but if when when they come in for the application, they canbring along their their proposed tax record and it says right on there thatit's you know residential homestead. That would be one way for the city toverify it at least. >> But that's that's bed and breakfastconversation. >> Yeah. You know, I know where you'regoing. But >> do we do we want to allow for short-termrentals? >> Well, and and the problem with a littlebit I think is At least I would think you'd want to limit what what zoningdistrict you're in. Right. >> Right.>> And and if you do that, are you really solving the issue because you're goingto say, "Hey, you can do it along the 94 corridor or the suburban edge, let'scall it, in 36." >> Well, then at some point you got to yougot to manage somebody that wants to do it, you know, across>> Lake Humble Drive there, right? So either way, you're going to have to havesome way to enforce it unless you open it up completely, which I don't think Iwould like to see. if you're going to go the R3 route.>> In my opinion, I don't I don't think I personally don't think there needs to bea zoning district. Um, and and reasons behind that are if you allow a certainnumber of rentals, then you're not getting concentrated areas of them,you know. So, you know, if someone wants to stay downtown Lake Elmo or if someonewants to stay on 36 closer to Still Water or wherever or they want to stayon a farm, you know, that's got a pool or something like that, right?>> So, you know, to me, >> I don't know that a zoning district isappropriate. Um, as long as there are requirements in place. I like the theparking spaces. I like that if it's over 4,500 feet, they need to have some kindof fire suppression system. Um, but that's just my opinion. So, so thatwould include a neighborhood um such as >> correct>> across the street or any next door to a >> let's say Tom gets sent uh you know andhis family are gone for two years in business and they want to have theirhome as a short-term rental rather >> they get sucked back in the military.>> Yeah, there you go. >> Does Still Water primary residence? AndI think we need to distinguish that one is [clears throat] a is a homestead andthe other one is not. One is is a primary residence. He owns that home.Even if he's gone for six months or two years, it's still his primary residence.He's homesteading it, >> but he's also treating it as ashort-term rental. >> Well, or Airbnb registered as Airbnbowner occup. >> I thought R3 said the owner had to bewould generally be living there at the same time, renting out a room. B&B isdifferent. >> B&B they have to they have to be owneroccupied. >> Short-term rental does not. Is thatright? >> Is that right? For short-term I thoughtthe R3 by definition was just >> It really just depends. I mean, so thebed and breakfast requires [clears throat] owner occupied. So youwould just have that. Yeah, >> as the permit for owner occupied, whichwe currently have. >> If you wanted to have a permit forsomeone who wasn't owner occupied, >> you would basically create theshort-term rental, I think, is the easiest way, right,>> to do that. >> And R1 versus R3 just depends on thesize of the space. >> So, if guest rooms and guests were someof the stipulations between R1 and >> I personally don't like the R1 and R3designations. I don't know that the short-term rental fits well into eitherone of them, but it it's a good way to have>> a guideline for what it needs to be. >> Did you say Still Water has restricts itto a zoning zone like down you said downtown where most of them are? Is thatby definition? Is that by an ordinance or is that just where they fall?>> That's that's in the code. So, they allow>> 50 outside of that district and I believe that they're all have licensesexcept for like there's maybe one available. Yeah.>> Right. And in order to have those, do they have to do a cup?>> I [clears throat] would have to check. I think the CUP is outside. I think Ithink it may be by right if they meet all the standards.>> I do think the CP is a good idea. I think if you want to have a short-termrental, you need your neighbor chance to say no way, no how. I I mean I So frommy perspective, short-term rentals are one of the Well, this is just this is astat, but the short-term rentals are one of the fastest growing segments at over9% of the transactions nationally right now. investors are buying theseproperties. Private equity real estate firms um compete with wannabehomeowners. Um they can easily outbid consumers with cash offers. This drivesup the affordability index and and liquidates housing inventory. Um assetmanagement companies. Um we don't really want those. Uh we want residents owninghomes, single family homes, and being our neighbors. I do not recommendallowing single um short-term rentals that are nonhomesteaded, non-owneroccupied. in a single family home inventory. Um then breakfast homesteads,those are fine. You know, I'm totally fine with those. But the the short-termrentals um they're going to alter our neighborhoods. Um they're they have anegative impact on our citizens safety, comfort, and expectations forpredictability and um will transform the quality oflife and the character of our community. My biggest concern is, you know, we'rein a housing shortage right now and so an investor is always going to be ableto outbid a homeowner and so they're going to eat up our inventory and ifcity staff isn't able to handle [clears throat] the or coordinate withthe bed and breakfast at this point, how will we manage short-term rentals?>> I I I think Jane that we've got you're think it's a bigger problem than it is.Again, there's 11 out of how many how many homes are in like rough5,6 >> 5,01right now. There's not other than Stillwater or maybe some family, youknow, there's not a a draw for people to come here. We're not a vacation.>> We're not Lucen, but there's 11 and it's no and that's outside of code. And whenwe say it's okay, we would expect that number to grow. Agree. So you got to becareful and I I tend to agree. You got to be careful too that is that what likethe community is asking for. Some investors might be asking for it. But isthe community of which we represent housing a quiet little neighborhood>> next door >> all of a sudden now every four or fivedays every week every month there's so I don't know if>> what I get what I'm getting at is the problem there is going that's fine.Somebody's going to spend 7 $600,000 on a house. They're not going to be able torent that 300 days of the year. >> Yeah. If we were a vacation destination,I could see how investors buying up homes that, you know, or occupantscouldn't, you know, get into the example of the last two homes thathave sold um that that are now registered as a as a Airbnb. One of themsold for 300,000. That's a starter home. That means that that family, a familycouldn't buy that home, build equity, and then move up in our neighbor in ourcommunity. The other one sold for 328. Both of those people have haveregistered their property, but neither one of them are homesteaded. So, they'vesaid, "I'm an owner occupant. One of them lives in Colorado." I mean, they'refilling out the paperwork and they're fraudulently signing it. And so, I mean,there's an example right there. Those are starter homes. And so we don't havesomebody that's a family that's living in those homes now. They were bought byby a basically an investor who fraudulently filled out the paperwork.>> And that's what we need to be, you know, concerned about.>> Yeah. I don't think the numbers are going to explode, right? I agree. We'renot a vacation area, but I think we have to be careful that we>> It doesn't matter, I guess, in my mind if if if it's going to explode or not.Is is it the right thing to do in the Lake community? And I think we got to becareful at least at least without restriction and guide rails, right?That's why I threw out the question, is there a way to district it and say>> maybe it's not fair to people live near there, but it's uh the suburban exter94 36 um commercial >> additional areas it could workpotentially. >> But to say if I think we we're going tobe a little risky if we say it's open anywhere you want to do it, no matterwhere. Um I think that's just a risk that I'm not sure there's a big demandto make us take that risk. Jason, you mentioned that whether it was Oakdale,someone required state licensing. >> One of the communities did>> I believe it's for like a lodging establishment, [clears throat] a state,>> I guess. What you What does that mean?>> What What's the state license? >> Uh that that has to do, I believe, withlike the hotel motel type license that you get. [clears throat]>> So the state's got to come out and spec, >> right? But we don't. So there's anotherquestion that we haven't mentioned is do we want a license or do we want thecounty? So typically it could be either. So right now bed and breakfast is both.So I think it'd be unusual to have this licensed by the state. We haven'tconsidered that. Okay. >> We've just considered the county and uhand local. And I think the issue comes in when you're looking at>> nuisance and people you know having parties and maybe they're a problemproperty. >> Then you know it'd be nice for us tojust you know, three, right? It'd be nice for us to just revoke it, right?The idea. So, if this moves forward, the next steps if if the planning commissionwants to move forward with this, we're going to work closer with the licensingbody at the county and just see what our options are in terms of, you know, maybethey license and we don't license, but we have the ability to send verified[clears throat] complaints to them and they agree to act on those, you know.So, I mean, there's different options of how to move forward with that.So, in the rural district, um there was uh last year, maybe a year and a halfago, there was a a property that somebody wanted to develop for acommercial use and they wanted to have transientlodging in there and and they weren't able to do their commercialuse. But if this would have been open to them, they would have had that set up astransient lodging in the middle of the rural district in the same area that wewere fighting to keep them from going into it would they just be able to getin there then just like that. And I mean >> that's why you need a conditional usepermit. >> Yeah, we we need to have some some guardrail. >> I think we can all agree that thereshould be a conditional use permit if it happens.>> Yeah, I agree 100% with that. Yep, for sure. And we should limit where they canbe. They shouldn't just be everywhere. and we should limit the quant qualityquantity of them. >> I always have a concern about startingsomething and then there's an issue and either it doesn't get resolved or you'reyou're creating a a problem for the homeowners or they're already there andthen all everybody has to jump through hoops and go to [clears throat] courtand all this happy garbage. I rather prevent a problem than create a problemand then have to go and fix it. That that's why I like that the three strikesyou're out. You know, if you get if you get three three complaints to screw up>> three complaints and if you know after the third one your license is revoked oryour conditional use permit is revoked. >> Any one of these properties that arecurrently not registered or not homestead, it could easily be along-term rental and it could have a family that's living there. I keepthinking about we we are have a shorting house housinga housing shortage right now and we're going to allow short-term rentals to bepurchased in our community. I just I I'm not very fort right now.>> I just don't believe that the short-term rentals that the value is there and thatwould be the underlying reason somebody would purchase a property.>> That's why these last >> I that you're but you're drawing anassumption you don't know either. You don't know the history of why theypurchase that and why that's there. They may be in a position where okay, I'vegot it. I'm I'm in a transition of my life or my family. I can make a littlebit of revenue to try to cover some of the mortgage or the cost of this house.So, I'm going to do this short term. I'm going to do this temporarily. But I Idon't think that you we don't know. So, I can't say I don't think we don't knowif they if these people purchase that home specifically for this reason.>> A few of them. I can tell you I I do know because I did the research.>> But but what do you So, tell me, how do you know, Jay?>> Because I looked it up and I know the person and they're a real estate agentand they and they own a house in Stillwater and they don't live in thishome and they're renting it out and and they filled this out.>> Are they But are they renting out short-term or they're renting outlong-term? They're doing short-term rentals. It's Airbnb and it's like five,five nights. It's on the website, >> but a B we're at B&B. We're not we'retalking BNBs again. We're not talking >> He's a nonowner occupant. He's nonhhomestead, >> right? But>> he's a real estate agent and he signed our paperwork that says>> Yep. I understand >> that you're you're owner occupiedresidence. So fraudulently filled this paperwork out knowing as a real estateagent that [clears throat] that wasn't true information. So I mean I don't wantto reward people like that. I just don't think that's I don't think that's fair.>> Yeah. >> And he's in on a large piece of acorage.So, I mean, and it might not be as you might not think that that's an impact,but I can hear my neighbors. They have little girls. And when they scream, it'sstartling, you know, and so now all of a sudden you're going to have you don'tknow who's over there screaming and why they're screaming. They were screamingbecause they were playing. But if somebody's screaming because they'replaying and it's a different voice, I mean, it's I don't know. I justI'm concerned about our housing stock and I the disruption to our community byhaving short-term rentals. I don't like them. [clears throat]>> Sorry. >> No, you're fine. [clears throat]>> That's it's a tough one. I I have to admit I've been using short-term rentalsa lot lately. A lot. And they're very convenient. And it's not because it's adestination. >> It's as I'm traveling through. We stop.We spend the night, we go on. So, I'm using them a lot. [clears throat]Um, but in my neighborhood, I don't want to see it.>> Your HOA is not going to lie. But I think that's another piece.>> We got to remove HOAs because I don't know if there's an HOA,>> but it doesn't matter where I'm living. It doesn't matter to everybody else, butit's not in an HOA. >> Yeah. I don't care where I'm living. Ijust don't I wouldn't want that as >> Yeah, I would want it as my neighbor.>> So, I guess the and I think you started off with the question actually. Are wesolving a problem? Other than the council is asking us,>> right, >> saying that they'd like to do thisapparently, you know, with the 3 to1 vote. So, if we're not solving aproblem, then I guess I'm not sure. There's 11 people. Is there a line ofpeople waiting to do it? I don't think so.>> Right. >> But I mean, you know, I mean, I I>> You might not be solving a problem, but you're putting those [clears throat]guide rails in that you mentioned before is that it's going to happen. So, shouldwe regulate it? >> Well, so so yeah. So, I'm okay withcertain guide rules rails. It says in certain areas. I'm I'm I have a littlechallenge is we just say it's open to anybody that that fills out thepaperwork. >> And I I think Jane's [clears throat]perspective is there are guardrails already in place that aren't being dealtwith. >> Correct.>> Yep. >> Primord enforcement issue there.>> Those are the guards. >> It goes back to compliance like theother [clears throat] things. City staff doesn't have the resources to enforcethe compliance. >> Right.>> So here we go again. >> So should we more>> cost? Yeah. It says right in here, you know,enforce regulations would be difficult and costly. All right. Neighborhoodnuisances such as noise and gatherings. I'm in a neighborhood. You know, I Iknow what a nuisance is. >> I never used to be in a neighborhood.Now I'm in a neighborhood. >> Can I ask a question? I'm sorry. Did Iinterrupt you? I'm sorry. >> If No, I just left. Um,[clears throat] when you have those guardrails in place, I'm a I'm a rulefollower, so this is probably a bad person to be coming from, but if youhave rules in place and somebody's considering doing that, would knowingthat it's written down, make that person stop and think, I know some don't stopand think, oo, I have to get permission to do this. with no guard rails, aperson says, "Oh, there's no rule against it, so why can't I have it?" So,do you think it makes a difference to have the guardrails or not have theguardrails? >> It does because I don't think peopleknow that they're not allowed. >> Yeah, I'm sure they don't.>> Yeah. So, that's kind of what I'm thinking. Like, if you have an HOA, it[clears throat] says in the HOA, a lot of them say you cannot have short-termrentals. So, people can see in black and white. But to counter that point,people aren't going to know whether they're not supposed to or not eitherway. >> Well, so the code is just>> the code is silent on the issue, right? So you have to understand the code, readthe code, >> understand [clears throat] licensing. So>> if you just thought this was a good idea, I want to short-term rental. Then>> if you read it, it's doesn't say anywhere that these are not allowed. ButI guess part of it is other than the group of us here that are involved inlocal government, if I'm living wherever and I'm know I'm going to be gone for 6months and I'm going to put my house on VBR, I'm 90% not going to check cityordinance determine whether or not I can do this.>> You are going to >> we wouldsay I'm a rule follower. I would check >> and but that's goes with anything. heallows the neighbors to [clears throat] say something and go to the city and thecity can say we don't have a permit for that and so we're going to have to[clears throat] shut it down or tell them they have to you know revoke it orcancel or whatever it is. Now you could do a more than 30 days if you want tofind a way to get around it. It's got to be 30 or more days and then they justthey don't need anything then. >> So>> I'd be interested to know what this what the city of Woodbury does forcompliance. So if they don't allow them at all,>> right? I like their >> are they enforcing anything? Well, Iwould say it's a lot easier to enforce you can't do it than it is to enforce umyou can do it with restrictions. So, if we're trying to make it easy onenforcement, then you say no, none of it >> because that that makes it easy. Thenyou go to Airbnb and say you're out of compliance. So, if we're worried aboutresources on how to enforce it, well, then to me that makes it very simple.you were allowed zero because once you start so it's eitherzero or everything is allowed if you're worried about because I don't think youbuild a policy around whether people will follow the rules or not right youdo it for is it the right thing for the communityso that's my two cents is I would not be for just carb blanc anybody can do it umif we put some very specific guide rails in itsure um with areas but um you really want to simplify, you just still sayzero. And >> well, I pulled up Woodbury and they Isee [clears throat] um four, five, maybe six,less than a dozen, less than a dozen, but they're popping up.>> They're there. >> They're all town homes. And I guess arethere any single family homes? >> Well, 799. Let's see. Oh, let's see.That might be that might be Maplewood. That's Maplewood. [snorts]>> How many town homes do we have now? I mean that would be a guide bill if yousaid town homes only, you know, multi- family only.>> Well, let me ask the question of the group. What's what's the other side ofthis? Why would why why the need for to allow them?>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Why would they prohibit it before?>> But why is there a mark? I mean, what's the value providing other than I'm aproperty owner, [clears throat] >> I've got rights. This is my house. Ishould be able to do what I want with it.>> You should as [clears throat] a homeowner. Well, that and that's so Ithink we need to look at the other side of that the coin and understand thatperspective as well. >> But I can tell you I mean just lookingat looking this up these last two people bought it as a as a Airbnb.>> But you know that's private property that's America. That's what[clears throat] very p our property rights are important to us that you getto be able to deal with what you own. >> They might be renting out for a year andturning around selling it. You know I mean that's how real estate works,right? You sell for profit. >> Yeah. So>> they just put a full one year or six month rental in there. Why do they haveto do short-term rentals? >> Maybe [clears throat] they're waiting.It's >> hard to find a longerterm rental tospeculate on. >> Yeah. Right. Exactly.>> But I just, you know, I think the Airbnbs are fine. We just need to getthese people that we have in town either in compliance or cancel theircancel their permit because they are not truly>> the only thing that's permitted right now is a bed and breakfast. So, ifthey're not going to treat it as a bed and breakfast, then they're notpermitted. >> Right.>> Because we don't have short-term rentals.>> Correct. So, I think I think we need to focus on getting getting thesestraightened out before we even take on something bigger that's going to be morecomplicated because once you open up that can of worms, you cannot get theworms back in there. >> I mean, I shared the story about whathappened up in uh Marine on St. Croy. They [clears throat] had to they had togo to court with that person. They couldn't get him to stop the um the bedand breakfast there. And he he bought it with the idea of doing it. He already heknew that they weren't allowed and he fought it. And [clears throat] theneighbors had to fight with him. neighbors had to he shut off the streetso that the neighbors couldn't even get to their home and so then the neighborshad to sue him. So I read that whole story on that person.So once you once you bring them in, it's going to be really hard to get them outand and they weren't even allowing it and they were having a difficulty getthem out getting him out. [cough] >> So number one, should the zoning code beupdated to allow short-term rentals? I say no.>> You say no. I say yes. >> I say no.>> Say no. >> No. >> Tom, did you have an opinion?>> I never have an opinion. >> He's thinking[laughter] >> pull it out of it. [clears throat]>> You know, I >> I think we I think we should in thesense of private property rights. >> Agreed.or you know, here's my thought too that you say that and and like I said, I'veused them. I [clears throat] don't know if now's the time. I I agree with that.>> I feel like more research maybeuh more talking with the staff and seeing what they they think, what kindwhat can we put into place. I I'm not totally totally against it, but I don't[clears throat] know if just right now saying yay or nay is the way to go. Ibut I don't want this to turn into 38th in Chicago because this has come arounda lot and I'm referencing Minneapolis and George Floyd Square where they'vespent millions of dollars on research and surveys and come back and keep onkicking the candle. >> I don't think there need we have theinformation that we need to know. Woodbury doesn't allow them. Hugodoesn't allow them. They're they're growing communities. We're a growingcommunity. I we're not a destination like the St. Croy River. [clears throat] >> We have a housing shortage. I mean,these two last ones that recently sold were starter homes that a family couldbe living in. And I just I just that's gut-wrenching to me. I think that'sreally sad. >> Doesn't have them.>> I'm bed and breakfast. I'm sure. [clears throat] But like I said, it's II don't see the need for something like that right now. And I'm I mean, there'sno more I'm for, you know, people to be able to do what they want to do. But Ithink we have to also consider the other people in the neighborhood and what'sreally needed and what's just thrown up here. It's it's been prohibited beforeand u there there isn't a big demand.There are problems with it. So I don't think short-term rentals are aren'tneeded at this point in time. >> What about a paradigm shift? What aboutthe property rights of the of people that live in town that are our citizens>> that are already here? They have way more important than some investor andthat lives in California or Colorado or wherever the hell they are coming in andbuying our inventory. >> Just change zoning districts and make itthis and that and it's >> we already have lodging. We haveresorts. That's that's transient. I mean, isn't that enough?>> I just like to speak too because I I've used the B&B thing [clears throat] ontolike a graduation or something like that and usually it's a townhouse and what doI have right beside me? a big townhouse with Reynolds in it. So, [clears throat]I can imagine what I'd get. >> Got a whole bunch of them right overhere that just got built right next to my house.>> Yeah. I mean, all of a sudden there you're going to have a whole communityright there that's going to Oh, we now we can do short-term rentals with alittle signature. >> Even some of the we go to Palm Springsmost years for a good month or so. >> Must be nice.>> Yeah. Just that's all I have to say. No. Um [laughter]um but no but but even those communities many of them because that's a big that'sa short that's everywhere you get >> they're pulling back and many of themare saying 30 days is the minimum for example because of the issues that uhshort-term is causing uh there there was a communitywide vote in Cathedral Hillswhich is one of the communities and they voted I think Palm Desert's the samething. I couldn't rent mine for less than 30 days. Now I could still rent it.>> Yeah. Um, but my point is they're even starting to pull back because of theimpact to some of the neighborhoods. Now, that's different because everystreet has, you know, 30% of them are rentals. So, I I get I totally get thatand we would never be there. But there's just a downside is what I'm saying.[clears throat and cough] >> We have a housing shortage.We have a big housing shortage. People [clears throat] want to own homesand build equity and have their families.>> Okay. Are there more questions for us?[laughter] >> Come on.>> We're only on number one. Actually, >> so you know, the consensus of thecommission is that no [clears throat] >> majority. I mean, it's not it's not it'snot majority. >> It's not, you know,>> it's almost a majority. >> I mean, it's not the not unanimous>> two to four. I'm sorry, Matt. It's not unanimous.>> Yeah. >> Um,>> but >> I think if if it is allowed, I[clears throat] don't think there needs to be a zoning district or a lot size. Ithink there does need to be a conditional use permit.>> Um, [clears throat] I think there should be a limit.>> And uh, I don't know that the R1 or R3 occupancy regulation fits a short-termrental description that well. >> Um, and in my opinion, it could be asingle family, it could be an apartment, it could be a townhouse. Um, as long asit's, you know, obviously the HOA needs to be approved if they're in an HOA and,uh, needs to have a conditional use permit.>> The CUP is going to cover that. >> Yeah.>> Is that good direction? >> It is. [clears throat]>> It clears. >> The minority would says says that shouldbe the restrictions. Says no. >> If if they go ahead with it, I agreewith what you just said. >> Yeah. And and and if I could just addone more thing on there, if if that is the case, could it not be everywhere?just find, you know, maybe in transitional areas where it's commercialon one side and we're coming into the residential or>> there's a buffer in there somewhere. >> There's conflicted whether there shouldbe a zone any there should be any zoning district confinement>> because you're saying yes and we're saying no.>> No to >> zoning that it should be able to beanywhere. >> See, I think if we do it, it should beby certain areas. >> Yeah. area. Yeah.>> Well, I I could see doing it in certain areas,>> outer edge, suburban against commercial. >> I don't know how you do thatnecessarily, but um multifamily units,[clears throat] >> things where there's already activity,where you got a lot of activity going on instead of in a quiet neighborhood.>> All right. >> All right. Thank you.>> Thanks. >> All [laughter] right. Moving on. Thatwas a lot of fun. >> We all still like each other. Next itemis the 2026 work plan. >> I hate it.>> So BM just kidding. >> My topic's not as fun. [laughter] [clears throat]>> All right. So tonight we're looking at the 2026 planning commission work plan.I wanted to first start off with talking about what the 2025 work plan had on itand what we accomplished this year. Um, so in February, the planning commissionreviewed the batch of housekeeping amendments.Uh, for the second item, we did not have any cannabis applications this year, sowe didn't need to do any refining or tweaks to our cannabis ordinance.Um, Jason provided an update in November on the old village study and thatgetting rolled into the 2050 comp plan process. Um, we talked about short-termrentals tonight. Um, so I didn't check that off the list yet, but we had thatdiscussion today. Uh the planning commission reviewed the CIP in November.We had our annual training in March. Um there is a city council workshoptomorrow regarding public hearing notices and city staff has updated themailing notice template to have more robust information.Um there was the joint planning commission city council workshop inFebruary. And then we received two gold leaves and step four and step five ofthe green steps program for promote promoting sustainability and sustainableactions in the city. Um we implemented an interactive city map that wasprovided to you in an update in October. And then throughout the year we'vereviewed a handful of land use applications um and hosted publichearings on those. So that's what we did this yearlooking at 2026. So I built it off of the same 2025 formatting. The items withthe blue circles are new for 2026. Um so I'll just go line item by line item andthen we can stop and discuss any changes or updates on the fly. Um first isprocessing the housekeeping amendments we identified this year. Again, theseare minor non-p policy related items, just cleaning up text [clears throat] orum corrections. Um I have on here short-term rental registration andregulation ordinance. Based on our conversation tonight, it sounds likemaybe planning commission is not interested in pursuing that. So, we cantake that off the list if if you all agree. Um reviewing the CIP, again,that's an annual item. Preparing for the 2050 comp plan process, that's a newitem. um providing training to the planningcommission. That's another annual item. And then the next three are processingland use applications for city property. First is the fireh hall and parksbuilding. Second is the city 76 acre park and [clears throat] third is forthe 180 acres. Um not guar guaranteeing that all three of these will comeforward in 2026, but we'll be doing community engagement [clears throat] andI assume maybe towards the end of 2026 or early 2027 we'd be looking at somesort of application. Um and then holding the planningcommission city council joint workshop that will be in January of this comingyear. Uh reviewing some AURS that are expiring soon. Um and then I left onthere's promoting sustainability that was bumped up to a level two based onplanning commission request. And then also based on planning commissionrequest I added language relating to promoting open space developments andwildlife habitat corridors. And then um leaving on there again isprocessing 90 use applications as they come up.>> I have a question for commission. Does anybody can anybody what is gold leaf B3and greenstep programs? >> Uh those are all sustainable programs ifI'm not mistaken. B3 is >> Do you know any details on them?[clears throat] >> I've read some of it.>> Some of it is the >> I can chime in if you guys if you guysneed it. Um the green steps program is a five-step program for cities to[clears throat] promote sustainable initiatives. So we got steps one and twoI think in 2012 and 2013. So it's it's long-standing program voluntary. Uh in2023 [clears throat] or 24 we got step three. Step four andfive we got in 25. Umsteps four and five are around collecting metrics aroundsustainability. There are I think 29 action items and then gold leaf has 44action items. So this is just to continue our work on on green steps andgold leaf. >> Okay. I would ask staff that they do aformal presentation to us on each of these so we understand what we'recommitting to as a number two. >> Sure. Uh just so you know there's um>> I think we're planning on having the green steps coordinator from MPCA comeout early next year to present to council. Okay. But>> did this used to be that Tree City stuff?>> Tree Cities is part of Green Steps, but it's just one small part.>> One small part of it. >> Yeah. I'm happy to send out a link ofIt's like pretty robust program. So, it's kind of difficult to explain allthe the steps and initiatives that are associated with it, but I'm happy tosend out a link so you guys can get familiar with it.>> Could you also share what those first five things were that we'veaccomplished? >> Sure. So step one, I can't speak to stepone through three is before my time so much.>> Um, but I I know it was a resolution to be a part of green steps. Uh, step twois some uh reaching those milestones or at least working towards some of thosemilestones. Step three is uh I think it's gettingworking towards the 29 action items, but within those 29 action items, there arelike 10 um steps that the city can take to hit those action items. Step four andfive again are our metrics. So, I know that a couple of things that weaccomplished, I think between 24 and 25, I think we had a storm water assessmentimprovement, uh, improved energy efficiency in city buildings, uh, mostlydue to LED lighting. Uh, >> just build a new building and you'remuch more energy efficient than your old one and ice.>> Easy points. >> Yes. Uh, average miles per gallon forthe city fleet decreased. Um, I think uh, new green space was added. Uh thereare a couple more but th those are some of the top line ones.>> The holding ponds maybe are one of the >> Yeah, maybe initiatives towards that.[clears throat] Gold leaf um is kind of a it's a program that comes after greensteps. So to to continue on your green steps work, you you join gold leaf to weonly got two leaves this year, but one of them is for forming a team uh that wedo internally and then the next was for being part of the tree stewards programwith Washington [clears throat] County. And then B3>> B3 is just a way it's part of green steps but it's uh a way for the city totrack energy efficiency in city operations>> more of a reporting thing. >> Okay. Do that in a number of buildings.[snorts] [clears throat]>> Um so are there any changes the commission would like to see addingitems changing priority levels of items? Just uh may if you go back one it's bythe way this is all looks good and I'm fine with this. It's more of a question.So I know the 2050 comprehensive plan process starts in 27 27 28.>> We're doing some initial work this year I would say. Yeah it's a long process.>> Yeah. And so yeah I know. And is that do we does that does it need to beconsidered as a three or four? I'm fine. And I just because uh if you're going todo some things on it anyways, I guess if if not much happened until 27, then arewe having to do a run on that? I just curious. It's nothing. I'm>> just wondering if that should be a three, but>> I imagine this item would be on the planning commission work plan probablyuntil 2029. And so I originally put it at a level four and then my goal wouldbe as we get closer to finalizing the plan, the priority level would increasebecause we're spending more, you guys are spending more time on the plan.>> I'm fine with that. I just >> get your feedback.[clears throat] >> Sorry. Any other changes or comments onthe 2026 draft? I did great on my first try. That's thefirst. >> You did [laughter] do well.>> All right. Um, so the other item I'd like to discuss with you guys tonight isthat joint workshop with city council that's happening in January. Um,typically I like to field if you guys have any questions or topics you'd likefor staff to prepare for this discussion with city council. Um, otherwisetypically all that we would review is the work plan together. I I'd like tolearn a little bit more about this $2 million they spent on this 70ome acresbetween the two uh passive parks, the regional park reserve and Sunfish Parkto put that big ball complex supposedly. That's one of the plans. And I was[clears throat] wondering that might be a little bit more appropriate over inthat 180 acres. they might want to consider a different site for that typeof [snorts] use. You know, that uh that kind of blindsided me. Ididn't know that was happening until the other day. All right. So, I'll just prepare thatthe work plan and then that one discussion item for the joint work.>> Yeah. Because I from from one of my council members, he said it's already adone deal and I don't know how it can be a done deal when it hasn't gone throughany process or even the residents knowing that this has been donesupposedly by taking a million dollars from the sewer fund that we have to payback. updates on paths and crosswalks,especially tied to the county. [clears throat]>> You know, >> Yep.>> I I will, you know, there's >> and>> the sidewalk over here on Wildflower that the city said they're going to takeresponsibility for. >> Uhhuh.>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Not yet.>> Another thing is is Still Water Way. That's kind of like a freeway downthere. It's the cut over by the gas station and past the cemetery.>> There's they did a real sharp curve there. It's it's not the safest place inthe world. >> And I think any other and you guys maydo the tonight. Any other updates? You know, Pioneer, we've got hear the reportthat the school is >> is up for sale to a community group.>> Heard it sold. >> I heard it sold.>> It sold for four and a half million. [clears throat]>> An update on that is the Valley Community Center has been looking atsites throughout the St. Croy Valley. We've been talking to them for over ayear now. Um they are in their due diligence process to see if theirproject is feasible. So they should know by the end of the month.>> All right. >> Are they locked in on that site or wouldthey consider the 180 acres? >> I think they really like that site>> and any update on I mean other properties for sale in the city and Furyis still >> phase two hasn't come back yet from thefire station. >> Has not come back yet. We have emailed.So we are in the process. We uh have we've uh ordered an appraisal for thesite. The survey is basically done. We had to survey the site.>> Okay. >> Um [clears throat] title work came backfor that. Um so hopefully the survey will be done and we can do a rightawaydedication that will come to the planning.>> We're kind of jumping outside of now we're kind of in staff updates. So letme go back to the questions [laughter] for the council.>> Okay. We'll need a recommendation from from you guys on the work plan.>> I move to recommend approval of the 2026 planning commission work plan aspresented by staff. >> I'll second that.>> All in favor? >> I. [clears throat]>> Thank you. Have your answer. >> Thanks, Sophia. >> And now we get the city council update.>> Okay. Um, so this agenda was drafted prior to the 122 city council meeting.So the RLS 132 has been pushed to a later meeting. They requested to betabled and then upcoming meetings >> RLS 132 give us is that>> that is the crearyy. >> Okay.>> Um applicant is John >> platting. Yeah. Okay.>> Upcoming meetings. Uh we won't meet again until next year, January 12th. Andthen the joint city council planning commission workshop is January 13thwhich is a Tuesday >> and at 6:30.>> It is the date>> um January 13th is the workshop. January 12th is the first planning commissionmeeting of the year. So you'll have a a double header there. All right. Anyone else have any othercomments or concerns? If not,7:25 I can do this. Uh we will adjourn the[laughter] the December 8th uh plan commissionmeeting for the city of Lake Elmo.