for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Thank you. Uh we do have an item on the regular agenda that we will be pulling and continuing at a future um council meeting. We'll pull item number three of the regular agenda. So that will decrease it to two items on the reg regular agenda tonight. I'll uh request a motion for an amended agenda. >> Motion to approve the agenda as amended. >> We have a motion and a second for the amended agenda removing item number three of the regular agenda. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. >> I. >> Agenda is hereby approved. Um, don't believe we have any presentations this evening. Has anybody stepped up with any public comments or inquiries? No. Skipping right along. The consent agenda tonight is approved payments and dispersements. Accepting donated funds from Equity Lifestyle Properties and Simron Park. Accepting donated funds from the fields at New Perspective. Approve Lake Deontville and Olsen Lake Association grant requests. Approve Lake Jane Association grant request. Approve pay request number one final for the 2025 striping project. [snorts] Approve pay request number one for the 2025 mill and overlay project. Approve pay request number two for the 2025 crack seal project. Approve request number two for the I94 lift station and force main improvements. Approve pay request number two for the Reed Park parking lot improvements. Approve pay request number three for the Stillwater Area School District utility improvements. Approve pay request number five for the 2025 street and utility improvements. Approve release of warranty security for legacy at Northstar fourth edition. Approved to hire administrative assistant public works for public works and fire department. Approval to hire building instructor. Approve 2026 pay scale. Approve 2026 paid on call pay rates and approve east metro training facility amendment joint powers agreement. I'll entertain a motion. Motion to approve the consent agenda. [snorts] >> Support. >> We have a motion and a second. All those in favor of approving the consent agenda as read, please signify by saying I. >> I. >> All right. Moving into the regular agenda. I'm happy to ask uh the local um the U group from ULI that came and worked with the city of Lake Elmo on [snorts] uh give our tap presentation. It should be all queued up for you there. Just go ahead. Just wanted a quick intro. This project something we worked on for several months getting it set up and then obviously here for two and a half days with some really uh important questions that we asked of the group and we're really uh excited to to present this to to the group uh council and everyone watching today. Also want to add that this is a first step of developing the 180 acres and this will continue to come back um to planning commission EDA and obviously the council. So, uh, just really excited to share this with everybody today. >> Thank you, director. >> Uh, good evening, mayor and members of the city council. Uh, I'm John Slack, uh, representing, uh, Urban Land Institute this evening. >> Mayor, members of the council, I'm Mark Hogi, also co-chairing with John for the T panel. >> Great. Um just uh for ease of getting through the presentation and getting to the recommendations, I'm [snorts] going to uh skip ahead a little bit here in the slideshow. So, sorry about that. Don't mind me. Here we go. All right. Um a lot of the information that I passed through uh is just really information about Urban Land Institute, our process, uh you know, what led up to uh being here in Lake Elmo, and then subsequently some of our analysis. A lot of that information you'll find in the final document uh that should be sent to you here shortly uh for your review. So I'm going to start uh with the guiding principles. Uh the guiding principles were developed uh on the second day of the tap after a lot of the stakeholder interviews were concluded. Uh these guiding principles represent uh some of the key uh findings uh that really drove some of the recommendations that the ULITAP group came up with. So I'm going to quickly just read through these. Uh the first is really maximize community benefit. So the opportunities uh to add jobs uh potential services uh housing options as well as uh improve fiscal strength within the community was something that we really thought about. Uh maintain overall image and character. This is definitely something that we heard a lot uh as part of our interviews uh with community residents um and stakeholders. Uh people really highlighted the natural beauty >> [snorts] >> uh the welcoming gateway along the corridor. they they really love the sort of the rural character and so something that uh really informed a lot of our thinking. Uh next was established design and performance standards. And I think a lot of this uh rather than being really restrictive was more about uh reinforcing that that rural character that natural beauty uh the landscape within Lake Elmo. Uh preserve uh future flexibility uh with any type of development project especially uh with a large amount of land that you um are looking at here. uh being flexible [snorts] uh during development cycles um you know um responding uh responding to developers and finding sort of the right fit the right type of project uh that fits uh within the site uh advance sustainability and resilience. Again this I think is something that really reinforces uh the idea of the natural beauty the native landscaping uh ready and responsive to the market. Uh this is really about being [snorts] uh proactive and being adaptable to market cycles and market changes. uh build internal capacity. This one was really focused in on city staff uh and potentially the need long term uh as development starts to happen on the site to uh think about bringing in additional people to help support um [snorts] all that potential work uh integrate open space and trails. This was another key finding that we heard from a lot of the uh the community residents. Uh it's really about connecting um this 180 acres to adjacent areas. Uh and then lastly was effectively manage transitions. Uh and this mostly had to do with uh a lot of adjacent land uses. Um some of the land uses that are going to be proposed as part of our planning effort uh necessarily aren't compatible with adjacent land uses i.e. indust industrial land uses directly adjacent to single family. So just being mindful of how we uh create some separation, some setbacks and some buffering. Uh one of the things that we talked a lot about is how this site uh can contribute uh to the overall city and to the village itself. Uh from uh the standpoint of contributions to the city, uh again fiscal and economic benefits. Uh this is increasing tax base. Uh think about increasing population, more activation, um attractors and services. So again, jobs, retail, services, destinations, uh bringing more of that uh into the community, uh uh providing additional housing options. Uh we heard from some stakeholders about life cycle choices. A lot of people uh based on the conversations we have uh grew up in the city uh they still live in the city uh maybe they moved away but they want to come back to the city and so providing those different type of housing options is is really a good thing and then also uh price points uh providing a range of price points uh thinking about uh this site as a gateway uh it's it's really prominent as you transition from Oakdale into the city and so uh really reinforcing that gateway presence uh and then again really about green space network it's about this bigger broader connectivity and then some of the benefits and contributions to the village itself. Um from an economic standpoint it's uh just providing you know essentially more residents more opportunities for for people to come into the village uh and then that physical connection via trails and roads. Um Jason started to mention uh you know some of the study questions uh we really um lumped these study questions into bigger broader themes. So the first one was about market feasibility. So, uh, what are the development trends, um, that you're seeing on comparable properties? What economic incentives would be most beneficial for use of the site to have tax abatement? Mark will talk a little bit about that. Uh, the local benefit, so what land uses will generate the most property taxes and are there current conditions that could affect this? Uh, from a community role standpoint, what kind of requirement strategies could help uh, the city put in place and encourage community participation? We have a little uh, segment on that. And then phasing and timing. Uh pros and cons to dividing the site or selling as what property. [clears throat] Uh should the site be offered in phases? What would a phase development strategy look like? Uh is now a good time to sell the property? Does timing affect how we how it should be sold? Uh and what is the fer preferred uh disposition method? Uh these are all things that we will highlight as part of our presentation. Uh so starting with um really the site um you all know the site well. We had lots of conversations during our tap uh with you and stakeholders about the site. This is uh an illustrative image uh sort of representing the overall uh recommendations uh that we came out of our process with. Uh I'll note that uh a lot of these recommendations especially for land uses um were uh driven by not only the expertise on the on the TAP panel but then also uh many of the conversations that we had with uh with the stakeholders which included uh brokers uh and real estate agents uh who had uh a lot of really great information about market conditions, what uh companies are looking for uh from the availability of of sites within uh the region. uh and then that really affected and informed sort of our approach to uh developing uh this overall concept. So I'll just start from the right and go to the left. Uh the most southerntherly parcel um is a parcel that we really identified as uh a parcel that could support a variety of different land uses. Uh what you're seeing here uh on the screen represents uh an industrial use. Uh so we think that industrial is is definitely a land use that would work well on the site. Uh but residential were also working. I I'll highlight that a little bit. Uh as we move into the center parcel uh just essentially just south of 34th. Um this was a parcel that was identified by many of the brokers and real estate agents as a a really really good industrial parcel. Uh and so after sort of going through uh alternatives and having discussions, uh we are showing industrial uh andor uh office showroom as the primary use on this site. And so, uh, fairly large site, so you're seeing that there's quite a bit of square footage of industrial or office warehouse, uh, uses that can happen on the site. Uh, but it's it's a really good site that supports those potential types of uses. Um, I think from a from a phasing standpoint, and not to get too far into it, but, uh, parcel one is the the furthest parcel of the south is the parcel that's most ready to go. Uh, it's the parcel that has utilities in place. Uh, and, uh, you just have to work on access. Uh parcel two, the middle parcel, um uh most likely would be the next parcel to go. Uh but it's all dependent on getting utilities uh into that site underneath the railroad. Um parcel three uh the most northerly parcel uh was a parcel that um brokers uh real estate agents really identified as having an opportunity especially along uh 34th to have some commercial. Uh you can see that we've connected a road uh through par the middle parcel and the and the most northerly parcel. um that intersection that's being created there, whether it's a roundabout or a traffic controlled intersection, uh is a is a really valuable uh commercial parcel because it literally sits at the intersection. I'll also note that um a lot of the brokers mentioned that uh your current public works uh site parcel uh is is a is a really valuable commercial site as well. And so, uh, one of the thoughts that went through our minds, uh, during our, uh, time on on campus here was what what if that, uh, Lake Elmo, uh, public works site actually moved to that first parcel in the south. Um, so we have commercial along 34th. Uh, as we transition through the middle of the site, that most northerly site, there is a natural sort of land break. There is a depression in the landscape. Uh, water looks like it would move through that space. There is a wetland uh, basically on on the west side. Uh and so what we looked at doing was actually transitioning from a commercial use to a residential use. And so what you're seeing in the graphic here is a little bit higher density residential potentially four-story apartments uh at the edge of uh that break. So uh facing towards the south uh and then transitioning into lower density which would include town homes. So those are the smaller sort of brown uh colored um buildings and then transitioning into single family. Uh we have a variety of different single family uh the single family uh closest uh to the south are smaller lot single family and then the single family that's uh most northerly on the northern boundary uh would be essentially pretty standard lots a little bit wider lots. Here's the plan. Uh it's probably a little bit small on your screen. Uh but again just really representing uh the most southerntherly parcel uh the middle parcel and the north parcel. Um, another thing to highlight uh is uh the trail system. So, you can probably see a set of black lines uh that potentially move from east to west or west to east. Uh look at creating sort of an integrated trail system that connects east and west and and north and south to adjacent areas. Um we heard from uh the uh direct uh the neighborhood directly uh to the east uh that um you know around the time around Halloween um it's really challenging for the children in the neighborhood because they really can't go anywhere outside of the neighborhood. And so uh they were really looking for opportunities to create some connectivity. They were also looking for an opportunity to set back any development uh on the most easterly edge of our site. And so you can see that that's been accommodated. Uh and then there's a integrated uh greenway system. So we have the greenway that flows through the most northerly uh site and then starts to move north and south along the eastern edge of the site um into the lower parcels. Um for that very first parcel, the most southerntherly parcel, uh as I mentioned, we looked at a couple different alternatives. Um this is showing heavy industrial. And when we say heavy industrial, the way it was explained to us is is literally just outdoor storage. Um, and so this was [snorts] uh mentioned as part of our conversation with the brokers that if you had an available heavy industrial site, uh, that would be really marketable in this current market. They also mentioned if you were to create a spur off of the railroad, uh, you you'd have one of of maybe two, uh, sites in the metro. Um, and so, uh, the opportunity to think about heavy industrial on a site like this because it's buffered, you know, it's set back, um, and it's large enough to accommodate, uh, a use like this is is something that should be considered. And then just another option, uh, was housing. Uh, you know, maybe it's the opportunity for workforce housing. I think the site's large enough uh with all the setbacks from from uh the uh the creek uh and and the adjacent areas, you could probably get anywhere from 80 to 120 units on the site uh with with parking. And so just another opportunity to potentially bring in another style of housing at a at a different price point. Uh last couple slides here for me. Um, you know, we just included some different images uh of character of the different types of building types uh that potentially you could see on site. Um, obviously the building on image is probably pretty recognizable to all of you. Uh, you know, it has that farm-like character, peaked roof, um, the, you know, the white sighting. Um, it has a a very unique style that feels of this place and, uh, it would be nice if, uh, some of the retail components that we identified, uh, were aligned with sort of this character. Uh the images below just really show what the inside of those um those retail establishments look like. Uh second set of images really focuses on industrial uh you know industrial large scale uh comes in many different shapes and forms. Um I think the images the two images on the bottom especially the one in the lower lefthand corner uh feels maybe a little bit more appropriate more earthy tones uh a little bit of articulation in the mass. you know, these tend to have really long facades. Um, and I I don't know. I potentially would probably avoid bright colors. Uh, and so something that feels more earthy and more tonal. Uh, just some precedent images of multif family. This is really of the scale that we were thinking. Uh, you know, three to four stories max. Again, the architecture is very simple. Uh, some articulation. uh the facades, even though the building on the right's pretty long, doesn't feel like it's one massive building, uh and the colors are pretty simple and earthy tones. Uh and then some examples of single family and multifamily town homes. So, the two images on the right represent town homes. Again, peaked roofs, you know, colors that I think are reminiscent of some of the character of of a lot of the homes that you potentially would see in Lake Elmo. And then the images on the right, single family homes. Um these likely represent maybe some of the smaller lots uh that we had identified. Uh and then my last uh slide here um as as part of our conversations uh we talked about bigger [snorts] and broader connectivity. And so, uh, this is a really simple diagram, but it just really starts to identify how, uh, the 180 acre site, which is on the far left, potentially could start to, uh, make some connections to, uh, your new, uh, athletic complex site, um, which is, uh, under, uh, discussion or design at this point, which is that blue, uh, box in the middle. Uh so the opportunity to connect along, you know, 34th or potentially an opportunity that's a little bit north there, uh through some parcels that you don't have control over, but potentially long term, uh might be a nicer way for um kids and and families to be able to avoid riding on the highway or walking on the highway and go through the community to get to that uh new athletic complex and subsequently uh the connection to the downtown village. And you know from the from the uh primary intersection of the 18 acre site to downtown village I think was like less than three miles. So it's a pretty pretty close proximity. With that I'm going to hand it over. >> Sure. Again my name is Mark Hogy and I am a couple of others on the panel are developers and so we kind of viewed our job as making sure that we could ground the designs into reality and look at market feasibility and make sure that what presenting can actually be built and to give you some good solid numbers that you can use to kind of base your decisions on. So this slide attempts to gather all of the components that was shown in the earlier slide. So the first line there is the southerntherly building assuming there's 230,000 square feet of industrial space and we identified what the land value would be in that case since you already have utilities there. uh we estimate the value if you were to put on the market immediately at about 3.4 million. And then what we tried to do is extrapolate if somebody were to buy that and build a building or two buildings equating to about 230,000 square feet, what would be the property value used for assessing and determining the taxes and what the revenue would come back to the city? And I've got a slide that talks about the city's revenue coming up later. uh the central parcel or what we're calling parcel two. Uh we looked at that um with the idea that most developers today if you're developing industrial start with kind of a nominal 100,000 square foot building. It's the most flexible and I think developers if they were going to look at this would want to approach this with the idea that they have flexibility. So in that design we show the five buildings but what would actually happen is they would probably try to control that entire site and then once the first user shows up for the first building and let's say that's 100,000 square foot build a suit then that would kind of set the ground rules for what the subsequent buildings would end up being. And it's important to consider the fact that any of these internal roads should be left for the developer, whether it's the central parcel or the north parcel, to try to figure out where the market is at the time when they start building uh the project. So, I wouldn't recommend the city running in and building roads anytime too soon. Let that first project emerge and then you can go from there. But you'll see what that translates into ultimately potentially $67 million of property value if you apply a cap rate of about 6% based on rents that we're currently seeing. And effectively how we arrived at these values is we took the net operating income and capitalized it. And that would be a good way to determine what the value of the property is when the buildings are complete. And then we compare that to other comps, you know, like what the county assessor would see as the property value based on uh their own assessments. And then lastly, we built up a spreadsheet with uh the components that John talked about earlier. So we have each of the various product types, the quantities, and then applied values to those. So at the end of the day, the uh land value we think is worth about $12 million, assuming that there are utilities at each of the major three parcels. So not necessarily distributing the utilities within the parcel, but at least there'd be sewer, water, gas, and electric to the edge of those parcels. And then ultimately uh if they were fully built out, it's a value of about $94 million of uh estimated market value or what the assessor would apply. Um and then the next slide is kind of a uh an a bridge version of what you saw in your packet earlier, but this basically [clears throat] uh identifies what the city's tax revenue would be. So I'll draw your attention to the fifth line from the bottom where it says city taxes. And what we did was we we compared uh what the taxes would be coming back to the city if it were as [cough and clears throat] designed in the scenarios that we showed you earlier versus all industrial. And because of the fiscal disparities, they're about equal. So, uh sometimes there's this misunderstanding that industrial is going to drive higher property taxes to the city. It may increase the value of the properties, but the monies that come back to the city are very similar to what you know you would see if you had a mixeduse development. And you know, rather than get into all the details of that tonight, I would recommend that uh uh Clarissa or somebody in the city staff work with Tammy Amdal from Northland Securities, who I believe does work for the city, and we can dive into great detail. We can answer questions later if if you want to get into that detail, but this does a good job of kind of illustrating what the tax revenue back to the city would be for the built out uh finished development based on the images that John showed you earlier. Uh you have certain financial tools that are available to you to try to induce somebody to come in and and do development. And I'm sure you're familiar with those. Um the other thing we heard kind of loud and clear was that uh you know the community wants to be involved. They want to know why the city would decide to go in a certain direction. So we would encourage you to have uh you know a pretty structured approach to involving the community. Um and you know to the extent that you have staff time available to walk through the process that's great but if not maybe uh engage consultant to help with those communications because communications are key [clears throat] and u one of the things that John kind of touched on is when the developers come to you with interest uh they're going to want to know specifically what are the game what's the game plan what are the rules how fast can we Well, and you'll have a large advantage as a city if you can demonstrate to somebody who's interested in locating on this site that they can move quickly and that it's predictable. That's kind of the key thing. Um, we touch on a few other things, but basically uh you want to make it easier for the developers assuming that you want to monetize this asset for the city. We touched later on, you know, some approaches. Um, you know, some of the big policy questions are, um, you know, what how much does the city want to invest upfront in, uh, in setting up infrastructure. And again, I would discourage you from going too far ahead of, you know, [clears throat] development as it occurs to hold back and see what uh might transpire uh because it could take, you know, three to five years to develop this and the market changes and if you put the road in the wrong place, it might not accommodate, you know, the building that wants to be built three years from now. Um the uh guidelines are key, you know, making sure that it's clear to the developer what it is your expectations are and then um making sure that you can move quickly when somebody arrives and and uh wants to locate in in Lake Elmo. Um you know, there was a question relative to the public works building. you know, that is located on a key corner and uh if it weren't there, that would be a highly sought after location by most people, particularly if they have an interest in a commercial or retail development. So, you might ask yourself, you know, what do we want to do long term with that facility? Do we want to leave it there and expand it or do you want to relocate [clears throat] it? You know, those are some questions that you might want to grapple with and decide before you go too much further. Uh we had a chance to talk to Jack Griffith and uh checked that the sewer capacity exists for what we proposed. So that's good news. Uh so as I understand it uh once the lines are extended, you should have water and sewer capacity. Uh and then the storm water systems would be designed as we move along. But that's basically an on-site uh design question. So uh you're in good good shape in terms of utilities. Uh and then I guess kind of the last major issue is how to move forward with this. What would be the way to implement uh getting something going on that site and what [clears throat] we're recommending is kind of the second scenario just get the basic infrastructure to the site. For instance, as John said, make sure you can get the sewer extended underneath the railroad to the central site and then u probably install the sewer and water [clears throat] through that central site across 34th into the north site so that it's ready to go. U you can look at all these other scenarios and be happy to brainstorm with you if you have one in mind that you thought might be your preferred approach. Uh but in the interest of time, we didn't want to go into too much detail there. Um so you know in terms of actual next steps um the rail crossing is key. Uh figure out how you want to do the public engagement. You know uh are you going to engage a consultant to assist with that or staff have time to manage all of that. Um, and then working with the county uh on that intersection that was alluded to east of Ideal Avenue because that could be a real gamecher and we understand Washington County is supportive of putting that intersection there and we would strongly recommend that you pursue that and uh I think the sooner you get [clears throat] after that the [cough] better and then just make a determination on u uh how you're going to represent this in your comp plan going forward. for the 2050 plan and uh work through uh your budget in terms of how much you want to invest in infrastructure before the first development occurs. And with that um we'll kind of stand for questions. Thank you Mark and uh John. So, um I know that Council Member Holtz and I sat in on the kind of the Well, no, I sat in on the preliminary presentation. So, a lot of this is what we went over before. So, I'm going to open the table to my other council members to for questions that they may have regarding your report or study. So yeah, I'll I'll I'll just ask a little bit about um it was actually the slide you skipped over with uh some of the the financial tools. Uh so I guess maybe just my first question is as you guys were going through this process, do you even feel like some of those financial tools are necessary for this development or is that something we don't really even have to consider in the first place after running the numbers coming up with that design? So um being a developer uh we struggle with this uh as we look at each project uh there are many developments that are occurring without financial assistance from the city. So for instance moving forward without tiff um and it will depend on [clears throat] the uh attributes of the site and what you're expecting the developer to do. So for instance, if if it's your preference to not invest city dollars in building streets, that would be turned over to the city as public streets, then that might be something the developer would come back to you and say, I would like you to consider providing tiff to cover some of those costs which might otherwise be covered by the city. So it's going to depend on a case by cases basis. Um the other thing that occurs on the housing side is often times tiff is utilized if there's affordable housing components. uh just because by definition the developer cannot charge the rents they would otherwise if it were market rate but if the community wants to [clears throat] provide more affordable apartment dwellings uh you know at somewhere between 60 to 80% of the area mean income it might require some tiff to enable the developer to build it at the quality you want and still charge the lower rents so I think that's the best way to think of Council member Dragoich. >> So this study looks only at the property tax comparison between different alternatives. Doesn't look at other revenue or expense that will be incurred. For instance, you know, residential development creates a greater demand for city services than commercial. Um, and if we go beyond the city, we have the school district and the county and >> and so, you know, I think it's a good comparison on the tax side, but I think if you could take a holistic approach, you have to think about what's the total impact of the development. Um, and then you can make a the best decision. >> Yeah. And what I would add to what you said is there is another slide that I believe is in uh the package that you will receive that kind of compares, you know, if it were different types of uh properties, you know, based on investing $100 million to make it all industrial versus housing versus uh commercial. And uh and that would give you some sense of what the alternatives look like. And then you would have to apply your own historical data on what it costs for services to support the various property types whether it's residential or industrial. But yeah, that's definitely a factor. >> Thank you, Council Member Holtz. >> That was actually a [clears throat] question I was going to ask about the the incurred cost. curious because this I mean the mayor and I mean we we were on this the first two times when we tried to go through it when we changed the land use the f the first time around and something that we never had discussed at all was if there's a way to utilize the railroad in a positive way we know there's a cost with getting the infrastructure underneath but then you mentioned having a spur on parcel one I'm just wondering can you go into I am not a subject matter expert on ways that that would help and what type of businesses that would be. So, I'm just curious what what type of uses would that help and what would be the impact to that parcel and to neighboring parcels. >> I'll let John comment, but I'll first say al we had a client when I was representing corporations looking for sites that uh needed to uh receive large coils of steel and the most economical way to transport is by rail. And so, they were basically limited to finding a site that >> [clears throat] >> had rail. So, it's typically industries that bring their raw materials in for processing on rail. U there's [clears throat] a group in Hugo that does panelized construction of wall systems and they bring all their lumber in on rail. So, it's typically, you know, some kind of uh manufacturing that has to get their products by rail or it's preferred. it saves them a considerable amount of money versus bringing it in by trucks. What you would add to that? >> Yeah, I I think that's um I mean that's that's the right answer. Uh but I think for clarification um you know this information was really relayed to us by uh brokers uh who are dealing with those industrial companies that are looking for sites right now in the metro area. And uh I I think potentially it's parcel one andor parcel two. Um, so >> that was my next question was is that with parcel two because it does start to slope upward as you go north. Is that one limited >> in that regard for a spur or is it just the spur would have to be very short? >> Uh, likely, you know, grade's going to impact uh the overall length of the spur and and uh the connectivity of the train to whatever building it's connecting to. Um and in our conversations with the brokers um I they I mean they were they were really excited about those two those two sites specifically um uh for the use but more specifically because of the spur and then and then the concept around this this idea of heavy indu uh industrial which uh was explained to us as just actually having outdoor storage yards. So, a common concern we've had when we did a a light industrial park in the southeast part of the city is the impact to neighboring properties. >> And so, we all have a certain uh something comes up in our mind when we hear the word industrial, heavy industrial, light industrial. What I'm hearing from you is it's not necessarily a heavy industrial type activity where it's [clears throat] necessarily a high noise or a high, you know, vibrations occurring. It it's it's high in terms of materials that are collected. >> Yep. >> That's the way it was explained to us. So outdoor storage that literally could be fenced in uh in any number of ways that could be creating fencing that's you know not so transparent usually you see [clears throat] through. So that's why you know I think conceptually we were showing that maybe more on on the first parcel just because of its proximity to adjacent residential and that it's a little bit tucked back in. and it's surrounded by woods, a little bit lower than parcel 2. So, but uh sounds like both parcels actually would work from from a [snorts] broker standpoint. >> And then another concern that I and I raised this during the listening sessions and I guess it is something that in talking with several constituents has come up again as you are more informed on the market demand and in speaking with the brokers as well in terms of some of the light industrial uses. Is are you still projecting that that type of use being put in now is still flexible enough to be in demand 20, 30, 40 years from now >> because one thing we none of us want to obviously see is vacancy >> or something that's not flexible enough to adapt to the future economy >> so developers um struggle with this all the time. You know, they everybody looks out on their crystal ball to try to understand what is going to happen 20 years from now. And the best way to address that is to build a building that affords you the most flexibility. And so what they look at are bay sizes. You know, so it's 50 by 50 grid for columns, building height, you know, uh like we have a project right now. We're building the buildings with 32 foot clear height, which enables a lot of different users with a lot of different types of uh businesses to utilize the building. Uh and then uh you know parking making sure that if the first owner doesn't have a lot of employees requiring much parking that there's ample parking available on the site should the next tenant come along and say you know I'm going to convert this warehouse into a manufacturing and I'm going from having 10 employees to 100 employees that you've got the space for parking. So it's it's a combination of site design and building design to try to make it as flexible as possible. >> And then the last question I'll defer then to others. I mean you this situation called for roughly 340 350 units of housing. Um was there thought to any additional park space within there? Uh obviously these are very high level sketch ideas nowhere near any land use designation but was there a thought that that would create a demand for a specific additional park amenity within this area? >> Yeah, that's a really good question. Uh you know we had some conversations uh with staff uh specifically talking about uh park proximity and adjacency and and the the parks and and who they support from a from a youth standpoint. Uh and uh my memory serves me right it was determined that um that this site really didn't need a a sort of a design park a park that included amenities like um playgrounds and things like that just because of uh the proximity of some of the adjacent parks. Uh and so the thought here was that um not that it couldn't because there there is there's ample room I think uh especially on that most northerly parcel but the thought here was that um and from the conversations we heard that the connectivity piece was really important um and the environmental piece and and when I say environmental maybe it's more so from the standpoint of uh creating greenway connectors creating spaces for storm water management uh things like that that that was probably [clears throat] something that would provide a little bit more value especially because in that third parcel, the most northerly parcel, there is a natural depression that flows through almost through the center of that site. So, it creates really a natural break uh between potential land uses. Uh and to really maximize that space, what we were showing conceptually was that the lower part would would be designed uh for areas to catch storm water and then the upper parts would be designed as places where we put trails to connect basically east and west and then subsequently uh uh we would be buffering. So creating, you know, a minimum setback of a buffer around the parcel around the edges of the parcel that directly abut to adjacent residential areas. Uh and then most uh I think the most dramatic buffer is really on that eastern edge uh just because of the relationship with uh that residential development there. >> Yeah, I do see substantial uh buffers over there. >> Yeah, what I would add is there's a significant amount of green space on the north parcel. So, you know, it's over 30% of that parcel is dedicated to green space, either for storm water management or [clears throat] just the way that it lays out. So, I think it would end up feeling like a a very um park-like setting. Yeah. >> As opposed to a real dense development or urban development. I mean, the flip side is if you go south of 34th, the industrial, those tenants, those owners of businesses are probably going to want two things. They're going to want, well, three things. They're their priority is going to be, am I in a location where I can attract and and retain employees? That's number one. And number two, are there amenities that [snorts] are close by that would kind of go to the first point, which you have the retail across the street in Oakdale. And then they just want park uh connections, trails, so that if somebody wants to go for a walk uh at lunch, you know, they can get out into the fresh air and do that. But they're really not looking for large park-like features. >> Thank you. >> Anything else come to mind? >> Yeah, a couple more questions here. I guess just the first one. What happens with the power lines that that run through there? Do they just stay? What's the process? I think the last picture you were just on I can't remember and I know there's little the red line that's drawn down the middle of I can't remember if that was trying to signify the power line or >> uh yeah the red line is another utility easement >> underground easement uh and then the power line easement is represented in the drawing. Uh it's a little bit hard to see, but if you look at um the where the retail is, the the most easterly retail building is set pretty far back from that new street connection. That's because uh that's sort of uh that's where the power line actually turns just to the north of that and then you have that red easement that cuts through there. So it's basically land that we we can't build on. Um, and then the power line, a little bit challenging to see, but, uh, if you look on parcel two, where those two blue ponds are, uh, basically on the east side of those four industrial buildings, that's the power line easement that runs north and south. So, you can see that runs north, crosses over 34th, uh, passes that one long linear uh, retail building, and then hangs right before it gets to that really small retail building. And so, uh, both those easements have been accommodated. [snorts] uh it you know it makes the designs just a little bit awkward from the standpoint of building placement uh but it does inform uh we we we took that into consideration in in development of the plan to make sure that uh there wasn't a lot of conflict. Now ultimately uh you can have conversations with the utility companies. um there's going to be a cost, you know, for uh burying um utilities or essentially moving utilities like in in the case of the the redlinined one that would probably have to be relocated. Um I think contextually as part of our conversations, uh the overhead utility was still being shown as is. Uh we did we did uh look at that red um utility line that's diagonal through the site actually being shifted over a little bit uh when you get to that with to the single family residential area there. So that line probably would cut south uh and then cut over through the green space and then go diagonally through the site. So that would potentially be something that uh would have to be evaluated uh in the future as it relates to uh the residential component. And do you think it would raise the value of it a lot if the city would go about trying to do some of those easements get it moved buried so there was not having so we didn't have that running through is that you know from a developer standpoint you know does that raise the value um with the the cost of having to to bury those utilities be offset by the value of the property increasing as a result of that >> so the the overhead lines as they current exist today should not be an impediment to development Um, would it increase the value of the land if they were not there? Probably some, >> but given they're there, what it would cost to relocate, you'd never recoup in the increased value of of the real estate, you know, with their absence. Um, you know, this is going to be a timing issue. And so it would be good to be in touch with those utility companies and ask if there are plans they have to upgrade, you know, lines or if there's a major project happening in the area that might require them to adjust the alignment, you know, you could get lucky and they would work with you to uh relocate some of that at their expense. We just had a project where uh we were able to have XL Energy bury the overhead lines which they normally would have charged us for but because it was associated with the road improvement project where they would have had to move the overhead lines. They said the cost to bury them versus move them is about the same. So if you want us to bury them, we will bury them at no cost. >> Okay. So keep our eyes open for those opportunities. And then I guess just uh page number 38, the property tax generation. And I think you mentioned that, you know, maybe this is more conversation that we have with Tammy. I I guess Yeah. And I guess I'm seeing the one with all three of them, the pink, the green, the purple, uh green and blue, teal, whatever color that is. Um I guess just with all that information there, as you're looking at, what are your key takeaways? what would what do you think are most important for us to focus on? Um the key numbers from those charts I guess just a little clarity as far as like as you're looking at those what are the numbers that are uh there we go. >> I'm sorry. Can you repeat your last question? >> Yeah. So just as far as with all the numbers that are on there >> if you could just provide some clarity as far as like if there are certain things that you think we should be focusing on throughout all those numbers. >> [clears throat] >> So, at the risk of oversimplifying it, what this is saying is the tax revenue coming back to the city is going to be relatively the same if you do this mix of uses that we proposed versus if it were all industrial. Okay. >> Um, and with the fiscal disparities act, it kind of diminishes the return to the city to go with the high intensity uh housing. So if you look at the blue section uh in the center column of the blue section uh it is u basic or excuse me it's the third column over where it says residential rental high density. >> Yep. >> Uh between that and the medium density it creates the highest market value and uh roughly the highest total property tax. But when you go to the bottom line in terms of what the city benefits from it, it isn't any more than the other uses. So I think the takeaway here is that because of how the fiscal disparity act is set up, whether you do industrial or housing, it's going to net the same result back to the city in terms of property tax revenue. Then the question just becomes does it cost more to support residential versus industrial in terms of services fire police and and those kinds of things. >> So where on on the blue one where it talks about commercial industrial the the FV 15ear city taxes and PV it's showing around that four million for both of those. Then how come then in the pink graph where it's showing for the the ULI tap hypothetical for industrial only then it's showing that 10 10 million of property taxes. Mhm. >> I I guess what's the because it looks like in the blue one, right? They're saying if we did industrial only, it's showing that the property value tax would be or the the benefit to the city would be 3.95 million where under the the pink graph, it's showing that the uh benefit would be 10.3 million. >> Yeah. So if you're going to the very bottom line present value um it that [cough] is the [clears throat] comparing the the different types of uses assuming that it is uh you utilizing those different property types on 100 acres and that would be the number if you extend it out 15 years. >> Oh I see that's on a Honda. >> Yeah. So that's taking out years and trying to put a present value to it. >> Okay. >> All right. All right, that was all I had. >> All right, nothing else. I just wanted to thank you all for your time and coming to present this and and um just just so it's it's out there. We had how many uh panelists did we have that got interviewed that weren't city staff or council members? We had people from the planning commission. We have people from the parks commission. We had some residents. What do we have like another 15 people something like that that were in the town and had the opportunity to meet with uh the ULI staff and give some input and and I I thought that really went well. I it probably added some value to the thought process on this and uh we we thank those people for their time and their efforts and in being part of this this um this study. So thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> It's an exciting project. >> Yeah. >> I wish uh great success with it. >> And then director Stoopa just because there are people watching just for our transparency as well. What what are the next steps that staff sees in this process? >> Just bringing this to the planning commission also to the EDA and having a discussion about this. I think the next step that was talked about is what does the community engagement look like in putting a together to move forward but vetting these options and with the plan commission and also with probably coming back sometime early and doing another we'll do a council workshop. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. So item number two is to authorize engineering services for the 2026 crosswalk layouts. Mr. Stanley, city engineer. Oh, I got it this time. >> Look at you go. >> You said you can't teach an old dog new tricks, right, Mayor and Council? [clears throat] before you uh this evening with an item, pardon me, to discuss um uh authorizing engineering services to investigate um cons to to determine conceptual level layouts and planning level estimates for three crosswalks um for potential installation in 2026. >> [snorts] >> So, um, don't have a long presentation here. It's this is this is pretty much it. Um, so just to step through process here with crosswalks. Last year, council approved crosswalk policy right about a year ago in December 2024 um that the city uses to evaluate [clears throat] um whether or not a pedestrian crosswalk should go in. Um there was a request from a resident to investigate uh installation of crosswalks between um Keats and Inwood Avenue. Um at a staff level um we were able to determine that there's really only two eligible locations per policy. Those locations are highlighted here at um Fifth Street and Ivywood Circle and Fifth Street and Julia Avenue. Um there are three before us here. Um there's a third one that's that was staff was made aware of a little earlier this year. This has kind of been on the been on the on the board for us here and that is actually up at uh um off of Village Parkway and Lower 31st. Um so that's that's these are the three areas that we're looking at. Um so the policy reads that um you know there there's there's several things that that have to fall in place for a crosswalk to exist. And um in in this case um the policy says that a um a key destination needs to exist um directly adjacent to the pedestrian way. So here we have um three parks. A park qualifies as a key destination. So in each of these three situations there's a park. There's um and um just to clarify that Northport Park is a private park. Um that doesn't matter in the in the spirit of the policy, a park is a park. So, um we've engaged with SRF consulting. Uh SRF actually helped the city uh develop the policy. And um so what we're what we're asking for here is is authorization for SRF's services to evaluate these three locations. Um I'm sorry here I'm getting a little lost here. SRF uh their their scope and fee for this work is 20 is just under $23,000. $22,832. Um and again this is just to investigate. It's almost [clears throat] kind of like the feasibility of putting in these crosswalks. What's it all take? Um, this uh the funding for this this work is to come from uh public works has like a professional services contracted services budget. This this um this work would be funded through that item. So with that [clears throat] we staff's recommendation is move to [clears throat] pardon me move to authorize preliminary engineering services for the 2026 crosswalk improvements the estimated amount of $22,832 for the intersections of Fifth Street and Ivywood Circle, Fifth Street and Julie Avenue and Village Parkway and lower 31st Street. questions, please. >> Once Jesus, >> so to come up with these three parts, was there like a city-wide study done and these are the three most important points or how did we pick these three? >> That's excellent question, Council Member Dragitch. This um the it's it's based on residential request. >> Okay. >> So, this is not an annual study that we're doing. This is just reacting to a resident request. >> Okay. I just I didn't you know I was confused as how we got to them. residence request is very valid. >> The the original request, it's my understanding, was actually fifth street at every intersection was their initial request and per the policy uh you know staff does an you know an overview of before we you know engage with with you know consultant and the only two eligible intersections per policy are um I or um Iwood circle and Julie Avenue. Thank you. All right. I think the uh I can't remember if this Were you here when the policy was put together? >> Yes. >> Okay. Yeah. >> I just thought that the North Point was so councelor Hol could get across the street. >> Actually, he lives north of there. >> So, >> I'm East. Thank you. No, but honestly on my end I I would say thank you for that and for the feedback being able to reach to this point. I guess the question I would have is um obviously there have been other requests that do not make it to this point. I mean and you'd mentioned multiples along fifth. Have there been other requests throughout the city as well where you know it has it's been filtered through and has not gotten to this point? Uh, mayor and council. Um, I so [snorts] I personally haven't fielded one of these requests yet. It generally has gone through directors, >> but it's my understanding that there have been maybe a couple other requests since the policy has been in place. The policy is obviously very new being only a year old, but there have been requests and the policy I think was in reaction to give um to be able to, you know, appropriately address these requests as they come up, you know. Um, but it's my understanding there have been other requests that have just kind of died on the vine because they don't qualify based on the policy. >> So, the filtering process is working in that regard by prioritizing >> Absolutely. >> Okay. Thank you. Mr. Stanley, in your professional opinion, does this um estimate provided by SRF pass the smell test? In my professional opinion, Mr. Mayer does um we are looking at three different locations and um three three three different situations. Um while a crosswalk might seem pretty simple these days, it can be they carry a lot of liability and they can um they can involve um varying varying levels of improvement. Um so in in looking at say um the fifth street area for instance um we have a road that's curve linear so we have sighteline issues we have a 40 mph speed limit and we have four lanes to get across so um that really takes it takes some work to look into that you know um the you know the the crosswalk over and uh at Village Parkway, you know, it probably a little less intensive. Um it's more of a neighbor residential neighborhood setting, but um you know, to to really get out there and look at it, you know, we I will share with you that uh the initial scope and fee that came back, there was a lot of negotiation um and discussion between staff and the consultants to determine the fee um an appropriate fee. So, >> thank you. >> Yeah. So, I mean, it sounds like this isn't just as simple as putting some stripes down on the street with these streets. This is going to be looking at possibly um some lights or uh additional aspects than just painting some lines down. >> Uh absolutely, Council Member Hearn, there could be a recommendation comes back for pedestrian actuated rapid flash beacons. Uh there could be curb work, ADA compliance work, adjustment to medians, things like that. It all has to be looked at and then it all has to be um put into a plan at some point. >> Any other questions for Mr. Stanley? Otherwise, I'll entertain a motion. Move to authorize Blumary Engineering Services for the 2026 crosswalk improvements in the estate amount of $22,832 for the intersections of Fifth Street and Inwood Circle, Fifth Street and Julia Avenue and Village Parkway and Lower 31st Street. [snorts] >> Second. >> Okay, we have a motion and second. Any discussion? Council member Hearn, >> I I think for the ones on Fifth Street that this is definitely necessary. I guess I I don't know if I really see the the necessity to have an engineering study for the Village Parkway, lower 31st. You know, again, just looking at that, that looks like that could be uh you you put I mean, very similar to the project that we did out here. >> Um it's not going to bring the price down that much. Maybe they don't change the price at all because they say, "Hey, to do this, it's going to cost that much." Anyways, um I guess that's just my my only thought is I don't know if that is a necessary intersection for the study if if we feel like from what we did out here on 39th Street um worked well enough um with how we went about making making that crosswalk happen. I do think that the ones on Fifth Street though, I mean, um there's going to be a lot to make. That's a more dangerous inter more dangerous crossing. Um more variables there, curves that are going to have to change. >> This is a price to not exceed, right? Oh, it's an it's an estimated amount. And to clarify um to that point, this would include doing the counts at all three intersections. Do we we don't have those tools to do that ourselves within the department? >> No. So this what this you know I'm I'm looking at the scope right now and to to council member Hearn's um initial question I guess is you know we need to follow the policy I guess is I'll say is that that's why we have that policy in place and um [clears throat] we've found that that intersection does apply and that this work needs to be done under it. You know what I mean? So, while I don't, you know, the numbers aren't broken down per intersection per, you know, situation here, um, I would, I would imagine that that intersection is kind of the lightest duty amount of work. You know what I mean? >> And so, would we be paying for the study of the traffic analysis? Is that that's what's being faced? Part of the policy, if you recall, indicates number of vehicles, number of pedestrians or bikes per hour or over a given time frame. So, >> hasn't been done for this site? >> No. >> Got it. >> Hasn't been done for any of the sites. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. [clears throat] >> And and we don't have that equipment. Correct. >> We do not. So if if the if the volume doesn't hit those thresholds, then it would basically say doesn't meet the thresholds for >> a crosswalk. >> When would they do their study as winter is coming? I don't think there's really any utility to study how many kids are going to the park in January. >> Uh Council Member Holtz, I I I actually don't have a schedule in front of me. I can circle back on in >> could we ask that this be scheduled in the spring? >> Absolutely. We can I I'll just make clear that you know um you have broad authority tonight to >> I think it would be appropriate to hold this off until May when things >> are probably a little more active. I don't know that we it would be appropriate to do it during the winter months. it would be a lot less uh it would not serve the purpose. I will say, you know, so obviously uh if you look at the um if we click back to the map here, you know, some of this is preemptive and we can, you know, you can use, you know, uh counts and you know, assumed, you know, counts too or you know, but at at Fifth and in Ivywood, for instance, we know that there's the Inwood Town Homes development going in out there right now. They're they're actively grading and so yeah, if if we want to if we want to um delay the item for a little bit. I I I stand for council's direction. >> Right. Right now, all we're doing is is we're doing that concept level um [snorts] study and cost estimate. >> Yep. >> Well, I don't I don't think there'd be I mean, the argument if I was a resident in Northport would be um My my speculation is that it's not going to meet certain counts to put in a crosswalk there. So, if I ever was a resident there, I would say, well, you did counts when there's nobody going outside and using the park. Um, Fifth Street's a little different in that it is uh a little more populated, probably a little more traffic pedestrian wise. Um but in the same manner um my my thought would be that you wait until till May to do that. Anybody else have feedback? >> Kind of laughing because I don't think we I don't think we discussed that at all during the when we were coming up with the policy [clears throat] thought about that kind of variable of seasonality. >> No. >> Um but I I think that's a good point. I mean, are we still good to go with this and just inform them don't do the counts until May? >> Well, we can we can um I mean, I would I would it sounds like we're we're going towards holding off on the project until this spring. >> Yeah, I think so. >> Am I okay? I mean, I think we got to do it per policy, but I think um just the timing of it doesn't fit >> with the usage and the intent. >> I would propose to amend my motion to add provided that the work is not done, say not done until May of 2026. I would accept that. >> You need a support on that. >> Need a second for that amendment. >> Second. >> All right. So So do I need to have a vote on the the amendment? So all those in favor of the the amendment that Council Member Dragitch put onto his motion, please signify by saying I. >> I. I. >> All right. the amendments on there. So, the amendment would read, "Move to authorize preliminary engineing services for the 2026 crosswalk improvements in the estimated amount of $22,832 for the intersections as indicated and not to commence until May of 2026. I'm just going to call the question. Everybody uh in favor of that motion, please signify by saying I." I I >> opposed. Same sign. Hearing none. That motion passes. Thank you, Mr. Stanley. >> Item number three was pulled from the agenda, so we can move into council reports. Council member Dragoich. >> No report this evening. >> Council member Holtz. Um, I saw on the district 834 schedule tonight they actually were having a closed session to discuss sale of the Lake Elmo Elementary. So, I'll be curious if something happens. We'll we'll find out when they make it if if they do something it'll become public, but I'll be curious to know what happens there. >> Sure. >> Well, last uh was that last Wednesday, Council Member Hearn and myself were able to uh or was that Thursday? Holts Is that Wednesday or Thursday? >> Oh, Thursday. Yes. >> Thursday we got to experience the new uh uh simulator golf simulators at Party Barn which is uh taking place as opposed to where the machine shed used to be. And it was uh it was really pretty cool and I would uh if you like to golf uh go check it out. They also have full restaurant and and bar. You go there and watch football games or whatever and full menu. So, it's pretty cool. Council member Hearn. >> Yeah. Would have loved to be there been there, but I was uh at the uh commission meeting last week. I didn't want to, you know, embarrass anybody too much. >> I'm not worried. >> But, um at the uh commission, so I'll just give a little bit of overview. We didn't really talk about this at the meeting, but it was a presentation that was given um earlier. I don't know if anyone's seen that by chance. Probably not. So, I'll just give a little summary on it because there's a probably a good chance that Mike Bradley is going to be coming and presenting for one of the workshops um about broadband franchises. Um so, just kind of like a quick overview of the hourlong video. 2025, there was a case um out of the FCC. They attempted to reclassify broadband as a telecommunication service. The FCC ruled it wasn't a telecommunication service, that it is something else. Um, this gave clarity uh on the court on what broadband actually is or maybe more so what it actually isn't. Um, why is this important? Um, caused cities to look at this closer because if you're a telecommunication service, state law prohibits cities from franchising a telecommunication provider. But now we know under federal law at least that it isn't. So arguably under state law it wouldn't be either. Um so if it's a cable communication system, which is what um Mike Bradley of Bradley Warner LLC and um the the Washington Southern Washington Kell Communication Commission believes that it is. They believe that broadband fits into the definition of a cable communication system. Um so they Woodberry specifically notified it all their broadband companies uh looking to come into Woodbury that they they need to get a franchise. Um as a result of that uh Woodbury delegated their franchising authority over to the cable communication systems their authority over their cable communication systems to the South Washington Telecommunications Commission um who then negotiated the franchise agreements with the broadband companies. Uh they had two franchise applications, Gateway and Intrepid. Uh both were very responsive. They said Intrepid was uh the most very responsive to negotiations. Um ultimately they went with them. Um they kind of made the point that you know because of this Woodbury kind of has this template of the negotiations that they utilized to to get this um franchise set up with them and it only took 59 days. Uh so it was a pretty quick process. Um Mike the attorney mentioned he does have concerns of legislation in the upcoming sessions um but didn't really elaborate on that at all during the the video. Um and then just like some specifics the franchise fee um that Woodbury is collecting as a 5% of revenues um from the city of all the the broadband services throughout the city. Um and then they just uh said to be well yeah that's kind of the majority of it. There was a little there's some question and answers at the end. But um that's the synopsis of the hourlong meeting. Again, if it's something that um interested in knowing more about probably worth watching that video, but I think um administrator Miller will probably talk a little bit more about it as far as if that might be something that we have for one of the future uh workshops. >> Yeah, that is that is correct. I am coordinating with the cable commission to find out when Michael Bradley can join us. So waiting on his availability. >> Thank you. We move in the staff reports. >> Sure. So with the approval of our three new hires tonight from council, we will be filling three of our current vacant positions. So we're excited to welcome three new members to our team as well as we are continuing to recruit for a public works director position. >> When will those positions start? Uh we have one building inspector starts Monday. Uh the PW fire admin is scheduled to start December 1st. And then the other inspector >> early December. >> Got it. Great. >> Yeah, that's it. >> No report for me. >> No report. >> No report. >> No report. >> Great. Thank you. With that, we'll adjourn this uh this meeting, the city council meeting.