the Thursday, May 8th, planning commission meeting at 6 o'clock. Please rise for the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thanks for everyone for coming tonight. Um, so there were some agendas over on the side if anybody needs an agenda. We got a couple things to talk about tonight. Um, first thing on our agenda tonight is approval of the agenda. Are there any additions or subtractions to the agenda tonight? I move to approve the agenda as written. Second. Uh, hearing none. I have an approval and a second. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. I. I. Uh, agenda is approved. Uh, we have some meeting minutes from the March 13th, 2025 planning commission meeting. Uh, I think there were some copies over there if anybody wanted to review them. Did anybody see any amendments or adjustments needed on those? If not, I'd approve a I'd entertain a motion. I And I think we should uh do a shout out to Julie. She did a heck of a job of getting all the ins and outs of a relatively complicated meeting. Oh, Julie. Good job, Julie. Hear that, Julie? We're giving you a shout out. Thank you for everything you do. Bring cookies next time. I'd entertain a motion. So moved. I have a motion, a second. Second. All right. I have a motion second. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. All those opposed, same sign. Motion carries. All right. I know Mr. Jacob's out today, but Scott, do we have anything from the commission? I see no one from the um city council either. Right. Um no, I do not really have anything for you. Uh, you know, there's a few things that are possibly uh popping for um uh for the June meeting. Uh we may be considering the quarter Jamie John said again, you know, we wait uh we wait for plans on that, but uh um otherwise it's been fairly quiet. All right, I appreciate it. So, seeing no more department or city council here tonight, we'll move on to our next section on the agenda tonight. So, seeing there's some people in the public, I want to make this very clear. So, this is the time for visitor and public comment. Uh, as opportunity for the public to address the commission with questions or comments on issues that are not part of the regular agenda tonight. So, if you're on the regular agenda coming on the public hearings, this isn't the right time. We'll ask you to come later. Uh, please limit your comments to three minutes. There's anybody that has anything to talk about tonight that's not on the agenda. All right. Hearing none, let's move on over to the pokings. Uh Scott, you want to start us off with uh I'm going to mess this name up, so I apologize. The Naguan short-term rental. Am I close? Um the applicant has made a there's an application that's been made for a conditional use permit allows for uh transit and uh uh short-term rental um at 5702 Penrose Avenue North. Um, uh, Trunk has purchased the home and remodeled it as his principal residence and wants to make the house available for short-term rentals. Uh, this, uh, property is zone R1 single family residential. Um, the applicant has provided, um, uh, some narrative and some explanation of, uh, what their intent is. Um mainly uh it appears though as a short-term rental uh primarily on weekends when uh uh when he's not uh not present at at the at the house. Uh the uh zoning ordinance allows uh for the transit lodging short-term rental at C as I said, but it's also home occupation. So requires a home occupation uh license. I'm going through the criteria just hitting on a few points. uh owner needs to maintain all the required licensing. Um that's primarily the home occupation permit. There's also tax consequences for the visitor task uh and lodging tax, etc. Uh the rental unit has two uh bedrooms and 1.5 baths. Um uh he would rent the entire unit when he's not there. Um, and you don't have to be physically uh present at the site uh when you're renting it, but it has to be your primary residence. And he has homesteaded the property. It is uh all the bedrooms are within the principal structure. Um it's more than 500 ft from the nearest um uh from the uh nearest other uh rental property, and that's Covert Park Manor. Um and the distance is about 681 uh ft. adequate space in the driveway, adequate lighting. You can see that there's lights uh both on the structure on the principal structure as well as the the garage structure. And then just our standard uh conditions. Uh the uh if the planning commission is is so inclined to recommend this, uh there is a a list of conditions uh and these are conditions that we've used for other uh uh actually we've had one not too long ago uh for a another rental. This is very similar to what uh what required of that uh that other applicant. Uh in your packet there is some uh uh some comments. We should make note of that as part of the public hearing. Um and then there's also one actually I think Julie has made copies uh for you of u uh within your packet of the of the comments. And with that any questions? Uh, I got a couple. Um, not that it changes anything, but for item four, um, yeah, for the distance, why wasn't it again doesn't change anything, but why wasn't the distance measured from the southeast corner of DHY's place and the northeast corner of the applicant? Uh, I believe that's what was done. I should look at that again. When you go to the um I don't know if I have that. I mean, just to keep the conversation going, when you go to exhibit five where they have the aerial map with all the addresses, it shows the corner to corner that it did. Um, yeah, you measured the wrong corner, but southwest instead of northwest. It he'll still fall without the radius. I'm just pointing out that Yeah, it is. You know, that was changed. It seems to me that u um that it was at the north uh northwest corner, but he's still well within that. So with that 60ome foot uh wide lot. So again, we're still within that. It's one of two that are with outside the 500 range in the city. So I think it's in No, it doesn't matter. Just Good points. Yeah. Yeah. Um precedent. Is the is the uh is the ordinance from corner to corner or is it from residence to res? I don't believe it's that specific. I'd have to look at the uh the exact language. says 500 ft from other bed and breakfast facilities. I mean, if you have a giant lot like Blake does, then we did it for proud authorities. We did it for proud game. Yeah, I think it's pretty straightforward. Uh there is some pictures um up above here on the screens. That's just an aerial uh photograph. Uh some pictures of the interior of the structure or one picture of the interior. Uh there's the exterior. Interior again. There's the uh the garage. I move we open the public hearing. All right. Um, I have a motion to open the public hearing at 607. Second. I have a motion, a second. All those in favor say I. I. Motion carried. So, at this time, if there's anyone in the room that would like to comment on this um topic at please come up to the stand, uh, state your name and your address and keep your, uh, comments short. If there's no one to talk about, if the applicant would like to say anything, this would be your opportunity as well to speak on behalf of the um proposal before us before we close the public hearing. Um, thank you, Scott. That was a great summary. So, I am um the owner of the property and I wanted to highlight that this uh I purchased this uh when I was in very dilapidated and and tough shape. And I uh I love the community and um I've gotten to know my neighbors very well. I I feel that um having this as a short-term rental um both either through VBO or Airbnb, I haven't looked too much into it. The idea is that we are able to bring people from outside the community into ours um to enjoy the beautiful city that we have and this way they can also frequent our restaurants and and uh enjoy our businesses. Um, if do do you guys have any questions for me? I have one. Yes. How often do you plan on renting it out? So, I'm thinking maximum maybe one or two weekends a month. Okay. That would be for how many days at a time? Um so I when I travel it's usually for the weekend and when I work is some sometimes um forces me to be gone during that time as well. Um I understand that for example um the winter months are going to be exclusive to me being there. Um and so mostly during the summer months. Yeah. And how sorry a weekend would be how long? A weekend for me would be anywhere from like Friday evening to Monday morning, but uh I I haven't been able to dictate um the availability just yet because I don't understand the demand at this point. Any other questions for the applicant? Do you plan on hiring a company to clean and do all those processes? No, I actually want to be within their community. Sure. Um, so there are a couple of people that um are want to be diplomatic about this where u financially could use the additional income. So I would be um paying the market rate and for people to come and clean up within the community to come and clean up um after someone has stayed there for a weekend or I myself would do it um if I'm available. Cool. Sure. Anything else? Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Do we have anyone else in the room that would like to talk or say anything about the short-term rental? Seeing no one, I would entertain a motion to close the public hearing. I make a motion we close the public hearing. Second. I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say I. I. I. Motion carries. Public hearing is closed at 6:11. All right. Who wants to go first? I think he's got support of his neighbors mapping out the the ones that are in the packet. It's every corner except to one at a greater distance. He's he's got the support. So my only question maybe for Scott is if he sells the property, the permit goes away with him. Correct. It wouldn't stay to the address. It's a conditional use permit. So the CP would continue, but he could, you know, maybe the next person does not want to do that. They just don't get the license. Yes. So there's a renewal and Yeah. How does it Let's say he sold it to me and I wanted to continue it. Would I have to do anything to Again, you just have to apply for the home occupation license and and comply with all the all the conditions. Conditional use from it runs with the land. So it transfers from person to person to person but uh there is a sundown on that. So if they don't utilize it that CP for a year it would go away. So it wouldn't stay on the books forever essentially. Yeah. But how would how would we track or know if he's using it or not? uh you know the the only way with these uh to track them is to actually go on the sites and to go on VBO and Airbnb to really track them. Um so that's and and actually I believe I don't know if Julie or someone else maybe some finance actually does do that because there's you know there's tax revenues and so forth out of it so that they do keep watch of that because that kind of ties into item six about permits may be reviewed including site inspections by the building official. How often does that happen with the ones that are currently in the city? Not very often. So, it's a random door knock. Hey, you might be home and we're going to do a random inspection. Exactly. Well, and that probably doesn't even happen. Generally, things like that are on a complaint basis. Let's say you had a renter uh that said, you know, I had concerns about this property that I stayed at. And they contact the city, then it would happen. Or the neighbors with no neighbors. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, cuz you look at the city and all of them are in the northeast corner and those must have been grandfathered into the ordinance cuz they're pretty tight. So, yeah, for the applicant, I don't have any questions or qualms. No, I think it makes sense. We need more of these in the community. And I think Scott, the city is planning to review some of that ordinance anyway. So, I think it's on the list to look at. that's on the list to look at and uh uh I'm bringing putting together uh some discussion elements on that for the city council um to see if they want to make some changes and if they decide that yes, we should make a few amendments, they'll send it on to the plan commission. So, I'd like to make a motion to approve. I second. I have a motion. I have a motion. Yeah. With the conditions. With the conditions. Yes. Amendment to my motion under the condition. So, I have a motion to approve and a second with the condition set forth uh by um Mr. Richards and I have a second. Is there any additional discussion? Hearing none, I would call for a vote. All those in favor say I. I. I. Motion carries. Um so I want to make this uh so you understand what happens now. So this will go before the city council because the planning commission heights only makes a recommendation. We don't make the final decision. So, this will be sent towards the city council meeting, which I am guessing. Will it go before them on the 13th or you going to It be May 27th. So, it's going to go on the May 27th one. So, um I would recommend you show up to the May 27th meeting. They'll make the final decision at that point in time. All right. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks. All right. Um moving on, we will move on to the Hatalia detached garage cop on 1517 65th Street North. Mr. Richards. Yes. Um, uh, the applicants have submitted an application. Let me switch this over. Thank you. Thank you guys. Thanks. Submit an application for a conditional use permit. Um, it is to uh allow for construction of garage at 15117 65th Street North. Uh, there's two conditional use permits. uh one for placement of the structure in the front yard and the second for a setback of 9 feet where 30 feet is required from 65th Avenue. A corner lot uh as you can see 65th and and Paris Avenue, both county uh roadways um the uh the way the ordinance reads is that both um both frontages would have a 30-foot uh setback and they would apply both to the principal and u uh and the accessory structure. They're proposing a garage of 28 by 40 ft uh total about 1120 square ft. U they have provided rather detailed uh um narrative on this. Uh I did not replicate that in the report. Um but uh again uh providing the reasons why uh they feel justification for the uh for the conditional use permits. Uh going into the zoning aspects of it. Uh the accessory building section has a lot of uh ins and outs. The first thing is we do not allow accessory buildings in the front yard and uh what's considered the front yard here is where the house or where the backyard is is where the house is at. Um so the house is firmly within the rear yard. Um again these uh you know in this uh older neighborhood uh before zoning um that uh uh doesn't necessarily conform with what we have out there for current zoning rags. The uh Paris is the front yard uh because it uh is the shortest point um or the shortest distance uh uh uh on the on the rightway. So this whole area, the whole area where I'm pointing out that is all the front yard and this if the house was here um this would be the uh uh would be the rear yard of that. So a conditional use permit is is required for the front yard. Um uh because it the the structure is there. Also the uh structure is proposed at 30 ft uh from um Paris which meets that frontier setback. Um but uh 9 ft uh from from 65th Street uh up here. Uh again, that matches what the house is is currently at at 9 ft. Um the u uh again 30 ft would would put it, you know, quite a ways down. Uh really creating some difficulties uh for actually putting a garage or a smaller garage uh there. Maybe a garage this size is not uh is not warranted. That's something for you to discuss. But also, you have to consider there's a shared uh driveway here with the two houses, and you have to have a certain amount of swing uh to get into uh into the garage door. So, you have to be able to get to your vehicles uh within that within that garage. I did mention the size of the um um of the detached garage. It's within the allowance. There's also this small shed down here that counts to the overall and they have uh proposed exactly 1,200 square ft 11uh20 square ft uh for the uh for the garage. The what this one thing I think the planning commission should discuss a bit in that you know there will be another 21 ft required if they're going to m meet uh the 30-foot setback. Uh footprint to the house is 1,64 square ft. uh this structure will be uh larger than that. Um just for frame of reference, standard two stall garage is 24 by 24 560 or 576 ft. Three stall garage is 24 x 36 864 ft. So I think that's something to consider. Typically, when you're looking at a variance or conditional use permit for in this case for sideear setbacks, you look at the a reasonable um a reasonable amount of variance and you know, is someone entitled to a garage that much larger than a standard garage um uh that will encroach in the setback. Something for for you to consider. The last one we had was Dodie up on the hill. I don't know the address off the top of my head. That garage was about 980 square ft is what was appro proposed and that was a double frontage and that was in the front yard starting to become common. We have all these giant massive garages and these tiny houses. Uh there's three or four of them I can think of Scott that have been built in the last couple years. A couple of them that were built with conditions that they would adjust afterwards and finish peaks and adjust the houses and then they came back and begged for forgiveness and never did it if you recall those. Right. Right. So I'm I agree. I'm a little leerary of building a garage at the as the size of the house. It definitely isn't necessarily positive to the community and the neighborhood that we live in. So, this is the um generally the the general uh uh plan for what they're looking at. And you can see also a uh a footprint of it with the the garage door that again that would face towards that neighborh to that joint uh driveway. Uh another garage door here and then uh windows um uh around again to give the uh uh the structure some character. Uh some pictures of the site. Um and there tiny little house to me. When you we're talking about uh somebody's building these great garages because of these tiny houses. Well, this does not look to me like a tiny house where there going to be a huge garage that the footprint's still larger. Let's let's let Scott get through this and then we can discuss. Yeah. So, um there's a disc discussion of those points and then uh really staff did not really have any issues with the proposing. Uh they originally uh proposed the front yard setback to be 10 ft. They did uh um staff discuss that with them saying if you can pull it and and meet that uh 30 foot uh requirement for 30 ft um that would be uh helpful for your case. So the the discussion again the point that staff makes up is is it reasonable to have a a garage of this size. Uh the garage meets all the other other requirements. Uh there are some basic design standards uh for for garages and meets that. Um, so if you're so inclined to uh to move forward with this, u there is a list of u of conditions for you to consider. Any questions at this point? I have a question. Is there anything in the city comprehensive plan above 50% imperous surface? We're getting close to 46%. That could cause, you know, drainage issues, water issues, puddling, pooling. You're losing, you know, you're losing your turf. So yeah, interestingly, this city has never had a impervious surface coverage uh requirement. You know, I I stand corrected in the area uh to the to to the west uh of uh Stillwater Boulevard. Uh there is a some percentages on uh total impervious that's the industrial area that we adopted or or annexed from the uh uh from the township. So there is there, but we haven't traditionally had that in in residential areas. Can you stay on the site plan? So, if I understand the ordinance or the zoning Yeah. the ordinance requirements, they would not need a conditional use permit for setbacks if they rotated it and put it in this plan southwest corner. Correct. Because if you had a 6ft standoff from any structure, that's plan east of the house and then you have 5T off the lot line and then they would meet both setbacks and Yeah. So, what you're saying is just tilt the garage the other way toward the house. Yeah. You're still going to have a conditional use. If they're within 6 ft of the house and 5 ft of the lot line, they wouldn't have a conditional use permit because then they meet the size of the structure, the spacing, yeah, it's possible that the setback could be met, but again, no matter what they do, they have to have the conditional use permit because it's in the front yard, right? And I don't have a problem with that because that lot is such a challenge. There's no other way. No, no other place you can put it. Any more any more questions for Mr. Richards? How tall is the garage? Uh, it's a standard garage size. I believe the um Let me take a look at that. I believe that's in some of the information that we didn't send to you and the applicants may be able to answer that, too. All right. Um, I would entertain a motion to open the public hearing at this point in time. I have a motion. Motion is second. Um, all those in favor say I. I. All right. So, the motion is approved to open the public hearing at 6:25. Uh, so at this point in time, if there's anyone that would like to come and address the planning commission um either do we have to this letter? Yeah, I'll I'll bring that up. So, I do have I guess I can do that now. I do have one letter from a Miss Holman that is um for it. She lives at 15117 or Michael Roa. Sorry, I mis I misread that. I apologize. Thank you for correcting me. Yeah. Uh so, uh it's here. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but overall, um she does not have an objection against this garage. So, um it's she says she it'll reduce visibility. Yeah, I can read that. I do I do think we're talking about her letter that it raises a good point about uh about a stop sign and I think that's something that the city should it's not our road but I understand that but the city still can take a look at it and talk to the proper people. Yeah. Can we actually So it's a it's a state highway both county highway as a recommended board though. Can we do that? Can we propose? You can always put it in as a condition. Um but that the city looks at So when we make our motion, we can approve it based on a condition that a four-way stop gets put in. Right. And that then it goes to council. That's what I wanted to hear. Nice. I I would loosely word it to say the planning commission recommends that the uh city work with the county on be warranted and so forth. And for the most part, most times stop signs are not warranted, but you know, they can always always ask the county. Okay. Is anyone from the public that would like to address the commission about this project tonight, including? Yep. Uh, please come up and state your name and address, please. And then, uh, keep your comments under five minutes. My name is Mimi Hasselback. I live at 6460 Paris. I am the house that shares the driveway with the Hatalas. Um I have filed a deed. Um but the owner is Warren Landro, but they haven't transferred ownership yet. So I think he got the letter to come tonight. Anyway, um I live there at the house and I don't have any objections to the garage, but I would comment that we discussed that perhaps the garage going up may take traffic that is coming east and force them to look more closely when they're turning south or right because that stop sign it they run it constant. Everybody, they slow down and they look to the left and then they just go and they don't stop and and they never look right. So, I've almost been rearended pulling out of my driveway a few times because they're not looking when they're coming around that corner. So, we thought maybe the garage would cause them to stop and look a little more closely because it could be, you know, it's just it it does obstruct view. But then I think now saying that out loud that perhaps it wouldn't because they just never stop for that stop sign. They just roll through it. They look left and then they just go. So, but um anyway, I'm next door and I don't have any objection to the garage. You're saying that it might be a safety uh something that would help safety. I was hoping it might like because it's there and obstructing visual some visuality. It's because now it's just wide open and it's really easy to just kind of glance and go without even trying to look and you don't have you don't have a problem with it obstructing a view out of your house out of that. You know, it to be honest, I kind of did and then I thought, well, on the other hand, it provides some privacy to me on for the north side of the house because now it feels it feels more visible and open, but I think that the garage provide privacy. And um the other thing I thought was it just doesn't seem fair to the hotel because when you go around the neighborhood just about everybody has a garage and in Still Water they have the mansion garages with the houses I've noticed. Yeah. So and this isn't a mansion garage so I don't really have any objection to it. Okay. That's why I was asking how tall it was because I was thinking of I didn't know who owned the house next to it and I thought well their view is going to get obstructed. So if you don't have a problem with it, then I don't have a problem. It blocks out southbound headlights. So that'll be good at night. Cuts back on that. Cuts back on lights. Cuts back on noise from traffic. Definitely. So it's almost a benefit in a way to me being next door. Thank you. Thank you. Is there anyone else that would have any comments? Otherwise, if the applicant would like to uh come forward, that'd be great. Any comments from the applicant? and then I'll give the commission a chance to ask any questions to you before we close the public hearing. I do have several comments as Scott. Can you Can you state your name for Julie? Yeah, thank you. And give her your address, too, so she gets the notes. 15117 65th Street North, Oak Park Heights, Minnesota. Thank you. As Scott said, I did write a lengthy narrative um or why we want a garage and our rationale for it. Um I don't know if it's a benefit to read the entire thing or if I should just skip through and we've all seen it. We all have a copy of it. We've all been provided a copy of it for over a week. We got it last week. And just to make sure, Julie did include because I know we had several other neighbors email support. Was that included as well, not just Mike Roas? Okay, perfect. All right. Um, let's see here. So, my name is Megan. I'm here representing myself and my husband Douglas in our request for a conditional use permit. We moved to Oak Park Heights in February 2021 from St. Paul where we live for 10 years. My husband's always been pushing to move back here. He graduated from Still Water. Um, both of his parents graduated from Still Water. I think his grandparents graduated from Still Water. So, it's a very embedded sort of um sense for him. Our daughter will be attending kindergarten this fall in the school district. Um she's a Daisy Scout. I'm on the board for River Market Co-op. Um and I give you this background just to illustrate that we are we're all in on being active members in this community um until I don't know our health allows, I guess. Um, and a part of that is making the property that we purchased usable for our needs into the future. So, let's see. Um, the highlights focusing on kind of the I don't know the tentacles, the columns, whatever metaphor strikes you, um, rest on four different things. So, the need for storage, protecting our property and vehicles, enhancing the neighborhood aesthetic, and safety, which Mimi touched on. So, the most obvious storage. So, when we moved to Oak Park Heights, um, and as Scott noted, there is a shed in the corner of the property, which is literally over full with our all the things that you need in Minnesota to take care of a property, right? A snowblower, lawn mower. My husband is a milright and a welder, so he has, I don't know, a wall full of tools and things like that. Um, our bikes are lashed to the top of it. you can basically walk into the structure and turn and that's about it. So, um obviously having a garage gives us a little bit more room there and also takes away any of the clutter that just naturally kind of happens outside. Um if you guys have children or have had children, you know that um yeah, they they collect things and those things don't always get put away in a timely manner. Um so there's that part. Uh garage gives us that breathing room to be able to store our things. We can store a recycling garbage bin, land use bin as well. Protection of property. Uh garage allows us to park our vehicles inside a structure. Um right now they're just parked in the gravel driveway, which creates an opportunity for I don't know, anybody to come by and check our door handles or, you know, if our bikes are laying outside, they can grab any of those sorts of things. Um, it also protects our vehicles, uh, the batteries from the wear of winter weather, um, the potential for damage from hail, extreme weather events, all those types of things, enhancing neighborhood aesthetic. Um, so in our four years in Oak Park Heights, we've demonstrated a dedication to building a little space in our corner. And I did bring I don't know if the included, but that's what it looked like previously. So, this is the shopping. You can find it on Google Maps. So that's what it looks like now. Yeah, it's so um suffice to say, we've done a lot of work. We continue to do a lot of work battling the buckthorn, the invasive honeysuckle, um giant tree that was about to fall over when we moved in. And as Mimi said, it opened up the yard, which is great and gives us room for um gardening and projects and things like that. And also with the intention of being able to add the structure of the garage there as well. Um, and with the garage, as you've said, my chat GPT generated image um, of what we think it would look like with gardens. My daughter wants to do wherever she went. She requested a food forest on that side. So, we'll get all that nice Easter sunlight. Um, so we're excited for those aspects of it. And then finally, safety. Um, we don't think our garage will hamper visibility for vehicles arriving at the corner. Um, we think it's going to make it safer. Actually, Mimi talked a little bit about it. Um, and it's been a source of uh, unhappiness, consternation, lots of synonyms I can throw in about how we feel about the corner. When we initially moved in and notice that um, no one stops, people roll right through it in their turn. They come up, they can see, especially since we removed everything. So, they can see nothing's coming this way. they're looking this way, they're looking on their phone, and then they turn regardless of kids learning how to ride their bikes or it's a very popular route for pedestrians and walking dogs around that corner. Um, so having the garage there doesn't impede visibility, but it would force you to slow down, right, and stop and like peek around before you continue moving forward. Um, and we did reach out, um, to the county, I think, when we first moved in in 2021, and, you know, about the possibility of four-way stop, of a flashing light, of a children at play sign, anything like that. Um, and we're basically shot down. So, I'm not sure who has the poll to maybe make something like that happen, but we would 100% appreciate and love that there are over 10 kids, I think, in the neighborhood under the age of five. Um, so there's a lot of kids who are running around from yard to yard and playing and yeah, trying to have fun. So, I have a question. So, I see on these photos that there was a lot of shrubbery here. Did you notice once you took that out that people glance and go or did they stop before because I see like lots of trees there. Did do you know did you what did you notice about that? Um I don't remember that's I mean you couldn't see through the shrubs. I was going to say I was I was going to say if if if it's going to block the view and people can't stop you know like kind of do the California stop and go kind of a thing if it deters that. It's It's not going to be any more blockage. It's going to block less than the shrubs did. The shrubs provided more blockage. So, this isn't a safety thing. The shrubs were I'm just curious. I'm just speculating. You know, you can't ever be 100%. So, in my opinion, the shadow will not do anything for traffic. Okay. People are going to do what they're going to do. No, the shrubs are or were, thank God, leaving five feet from the curb. So, you plan on hooking a hard right into your garage off your driveway essentially? Yeah. So, we'll keep um like the gravel up to where it is. So, we will be able to Yeah. either take a hard ride or pull forward and then back. Does that make sense? And as for the I just see you using the other person's driveway frequently with trailers or boats or whatever is in your future of you're a 90 a hard 90° turn is really hard to do when you're swinging equipment and swinging. 100% if we are ever that's why you're pushing so hard to the 9 foot on the street to give you the most amount of swing room that you can. Yeah. And I mean, if we are ever in a position to have those things, that would be a nice property. It might be a while with the cost of the shed, right? Or the garage. Yeah. It's not cheap. Exactly. Um concerns about the size of the garage. So, I did include just like a brief kind of mockup of how we intend to use it um beyond the AI rendering. Um that just gives an idea. Like I mentioned, my husband is a milright. He's a fabricator. So him being able to have like his own workbench is great, right? And one of the things that we really loved about the property when we first moved into it is just that potential that it has, right? So as I stated, we're like we're here, right? We're planning on being here for a long time and we really want to make this property like kind of our I don't know, dream home. Sounds schmaltzy, I think, but a dream garage maybe. Um, when you guys were looking at this, my only question would be the placement like I was kind of posing to Scott. Did you guys look at other spots like along the driveway side versus the roadside? We did. Um, in our earliest conversations, it sounded like that was just not feasible and so we pivoted to the other way due to like the swing factor and um having to be a certain distance from Mimi. Scott, could you pull up while we have the applicant up before we close public hearing? Could you pull up the blueprint map for us, please? Now, they're lenient with the shared driveway. Yeah. Also could buy a semi. I mean, exactly. You know, I mean, I I don't think it's our job to think about what the future possibilities can possibly be, you know. I think it's I disagree. I think it is our job to think of what the future possibilities could be. Well, I'm looking at the way that we're already we're looking at conditional with the setback on the front yard. If we turned it 90°, we're maybe looking at a little less than 30 uh would be pretty comparable. And you could do the six foot off the lot line. Correct, Mr. Richards. It's 6 foot off the lot line. 6 foot from the house. Six foot from the house. What's the lot line set back? It's 30 and 30. 30 said it was in your earlier paragraph. It was five, right? But that's again those are the standards, but it's uh different situation in that you've got two front edges. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking turn it away from the front edge, turn it 90 degrees and come straight from the, you know, the uh the lower front. Yeah. I was looking at the south lot line. Yeah. So, if you turned it 90°, so your garage door faced east and you'd be within shorten it because you're at 77 at 30 ft. You're probably going to have to shorten it to make sure you maintain this setback, but not by much because if it's 778, you're at a 40 foot garage, you shorten it 3 ft and you're within the ordinance. Yeah, I would be more immunable to looking at something like that than this uh sitting apart. What is the problem with this? Besides the fact that if they buy a semi, they can't back it in. No, it's not a semi. No, that Okay. If they get a camper, they camp back. I mean, isn't that something? Well, you got ownership issues. You got a f or you got a monument there that's talking about shared driveway. So, a land surveyor went out and found dimensioned it off. So, that is someone else's property that's being used as well. So, any person that goes over that line, you're now encroaching and you're using someone else's land and that can become a legal dispute. So if someone does that, which hypotheticals suck. I understand that they do. Facts are better, but it is a situation. Is there a shared easement with that? I mean, exactly. That's what I was going to ask. There's a shared easement between the two properties. No, there's there's no just been a handshake situation. But after a certain amount of years, any prescriptive rights. Any other questions for the applicant at this point? Um I mean everybody seems we're going to close the public hearing and we'll talk amongst ourselves. Any any other questions for you? No, I don't. No. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Is there anyone else that would like to speak on behalf of this tonight? Yep. Feel free. Just remember to state your name and address, please. Okay. Um my name is Wendy Dick and I'm Megan's mother. We live in Wisconsin. So 606 150th Street, Wisconsin. Thank you. Wisconsin. It's for the records for Julie. So thank you. No problem. Um my question is so you're talking about turning it so they would pull directly into the garage from Paris Street. Either a 90 or a 45. 45 would be at an angle. Correct. To give more access to the garage door. I'm 100%. Yeah. So, imagine imagine your rectangle here. Your 40 foot dimension gets turned 90°. So, now it's east west instead of north south. Your long side would be east west. Your short side. I drew it out before I came. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's kind of So, driving straight in off the off of Paris, right into the door. Oh, wait. Right into the door. So, you'd come in off of Paris, right into your door. So, it'd be putting your door from the south side to the Paris side. One thing about that though is the county the county may have some issues with pushing the driveway further up on Paris. You may want if you are No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not messing with driveway. We're not touching curb and then you're going directly off of Paris directly into it. But you always same driveway. Okay. You just be kind of shifting it down. And so you could do that with garage doors. What you're envisioning would be on this side. You turned it. You would have to stay 5t away from this lot line and 6 ft off your house. This would be 30 and this would be closer and then six feet off your house. Your house. So then you could have a door in the back. It would preserve more of the yard. You just won't be going through your gated area where you have your shed, where you have your gate. You would be blocking that with your shed or your garage. And is this okay? Like we can be that close to Mimi. Six feet is the city ordinances. Yeah, you could be closer side setback. Okay. So, this would get approved is what you're saying. We would potentially explore that instead of setting it up the way you have it today or even a 45° angle. So, not going 100% 90, but go 45. Keep the six feet off the house. Keep the one corner um angle it essentially. I think is what we're getting at. Or he's talking at 45. So it would go like that. Yeah. No, cuz that puts Harper on the other side and I don't want that. I don't think angling makes it would preserve more of your yard for future usage of the kids potentially fencing like we've you've seen in a lot of the neighborhood houses if you look right across the street. Can I see your diagram? Yeah. Angling it would work because then they would keep I thought about that but didn't draw it out. 90°. Yeah, I thought we had discussed that and because then it would only be the current neighbor or future neighbors having the broad side of the garage. Tyler Tyler, this has to maintain six feet. When you say angling it won't benefit anybody. It kind of will. Then they can still use their gate and get back to their shed with what you're proposing blocks that whole deal. Yeah, you can just push it off and then you got to shorten the length of the of the garage to maintain the 30 ft, right? But angling it, you can make all of that happen easier to pull in and they can still get through to their gate. Yeah. And their shed. It would be closer to setting back to the city ordinances because you're supposed to have a 30 foot on both sides. Mhm. So if you turned it 90° like we're talking about and we're having a conversation um plus or minus cuz none of us have measured it with a ruler based on the drawings you'd be like 29 from the one side based on 65th and you'd be like 27 28 potentially from Paris which is more in line with what the city has set forth for trying to keep patterns within the city limits right so that it keeps consistency amongst the houses within the city versus what you've brought before us today. She's not supposed to have a garage in that sideyard at all. Well, it's just cuz we call it the sideyard, but that would make it more consistent with the way houses are being constructed and renovated within the city limits. Does that make sense? And it would still have It's not perfect, but you can you're never perfect, but it's a lot closer than this. And it would still be the cup with the fact that it's the sideyard, not the rear. So that inevitably stays. Yep. It's probably going to need a CUP still because it's going to be 29 27 or something like that. It's not quite be 30, but it's be real close. Unless you mitigate that with reducing the length. Yeah. Unless you reduce the garage by 2 feet and a foot or something. Yeah. And if it's that close, I would highly recommend that they make it consistent. Mhm. If possible. And Cornerstone Land Surveying can very easily manipulate all of that. You give them the dimensions that say as the city wants. They can shrink, twist, rotate. They'll very easy. They're very expensive, though. They are. Yeah. So, we would redo this process again. Uh, we're going to we're going to close the public queuing at this point. We're going to talk amongst ourselves and we'll make a recommendation. Um, we may potentially make that re recommendation. The planning commission still only makes recommendations, right? We don't make the final decision. It goes to the city council. Um, but we could make that recommendation tonight. Um, if that's immunable to you as the homeowner and then that could move forward to the city council and they could potentially just approve it at that point minus we'd probably have to do some stuff. Scott, I don't know. We do some stuff. I have a question. Yeah. As far as if we if we if we mean this 90° turn and fix the setbacks, could we do that tonight? Recommendation. The applicants may not agree to that. I was just going to say but we can make that recommendation and if the applicants agree to that, it would move forward. Then uh I would say if if then the applicants are uh you know reasonable or feel that that is reasonable. Uh I would suggest that they do a quick diagram um showing that and then that goes then before the city council. Does that answer your question, ma'am? Yes. Okay. And if Cornerstone bills you more than an hour, that's too much. So, one hour 170 an hour, they just send us a plateau. All right. Do you have any other questions for us? I don't think so. I do. We're going to Are you opposed to 90° turns? Is that a hard no for you or are you open to I am open. And my husband is quite passionate about where it's at. I think he might be open to this. It's just it's a conversation, right? Yeah. Cuz one thing about it, 90° puts your landscaping in gravel. Landscaping needs dirt. Yeah. So now you're doing driveway work and dirt work and you're not just plopping it right in dirt. So more landscaping or yard. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I move we close the public hearing. Okay. I would I have a motion to close the public hearing in a second. Uh all those in favor say I. I. I. Public hearing is closed. All right. Who wants to go first? That's a challenging lot. Yeah. I So I I think that I think I I'll bring up a few things. I've lived there long long to see the buckthornne very thick and I've seen the buckthorn removed and the traffic problems always been in existence. Right. I've been there since 2018. I live just on 64th um for full disclosure and it's always an issue on that road. Paris is very high traffic. People don't stop on 65th. I don't know what you're going to do with a building or buckorn to cause any traffic mitigation from a safety perspective. Right. So, I think tonight that shouldn't really apply to this conversation because I don't see this being a safety factor either way, positive or negative. I think that's a conversation that we could definitely put in one of the conditions that we would request the city um request the county to explore stop signs. I don't see any harm in that. I think it would potentially be a good thing. I don't know if the county will do anything about it or not because it's beyond our control because they're both county roads, but Harris is county, too. Mhm. So, I think it's something we could explore saying, "Hey, send a letter to the county and ask. I see no harm in that." Um, as far as the building itself, um, it's another large garage in the community. We've had some very large garages built. A 28x40 is although everyone's dream size, it's a it's a big garage. I think it would make more sense from that lot um the flow of the property to turn it like we talked about that 90 degrees to keep that property flowing more in um conformance with the way houses are constructed and the garages are being added on to houses and the neighborhoods um versus having another major large floating island detached garage sitting out there um alone. That's my two cents. So, I have personal experience with this situation. My father owned a house when I was young and built a garage a little bigger than the house and it ended up being hard to sell. It was known as the garage house. It was an eyes sore. Um, having a garage that's bigger than the home and not attached to the home is something that is very tough. And so being that I have personal experience with that, um, I'm reluctant on how it sits today. I I would agree. We've had three of them in my time in the planning commission that people have come and built garages that in one especially that they were supposed to renovate the property and then they came back a year later and said, "Oh, we're not going to do that anymore cuz we ran out of money." So, you have a giant garage with a small house. So, two within half a mile in each direction. Yeah. I'm not And to spend thousands of dollars and get no money back on your your investment is I'm just not a proponent of giant garages bigger than houses. Correct. I'm okay with the garage. I think everybody needs a two-car garage. We live in Minnesota. I think we need space. Um I think it's it that property definitely will behoove having a two-car garage on it. I just don't think the footprint of the garage should be larger than the footprint of the main home. It seems to me we are not in the business of psychological or whatever advice or financial advice saying, "Oh my god, you could lose money." I mean, that's not our job. Yeah, our job is to look at this. These people obviously have spent Yep. I agree with standpoint shitloads of time thinking about this, wondering what's the best for them and the way to use it. And do they understand uh that 20 years, 10 years, 5 years down the road, they could lose money. I suspect that they do. And if they do, that's that's not our issue to decide to protect you from yourselves and silly ass decisions that you make. It's our job, I think, to see if this is so fits in not fits in, but this is So, I think you're correct, Mr. Kramer. I think we should look at our zoning policies and what we have within the regularizations of Oak Park Heights, which is what we're really here to do, right? Which I agree what you're saying right there. Um, this proposal doesn't fit those. It's too large. This, uh, set back off of 65th is nine feet where it should be 30. Um, so it's a much it's a it's a miser. I mean, you know, I Well, just goes to the conditions one through nine. Things to think about that we have no input on depreciation that's subject to market. Like I don't think it would. We're recommending board though and we're in open discussion so it's okay to have our comments. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I agree. Yeah. I move that we uh we approve the request with the conditions uh outlined and that we suggest well we can separately suggest to the county or to the city that it ask for county look at stop sign but I I move that we approve the request with the conditions outlined I'm not I'm not ready to I mean we can take the motion. Do we have a second? A second. So, I have a motion and a second. More discussion. I I wasn't I didn't call for a motion yet, so thank you, Mr. Kramer, for jumping the gun. I thought there was more discussion, but I think we should continue the discussion at this point. Um, no, just just vote. Yeah, I mean, I I we we can call for a vote. Uh, let's call a roll call vote at this point. I don't think we're done with discussion. You wish to discuss. Well, I mean, let's continue the discussion. Yeah. So, I mean, we have a motion to approve as presented. um as presented. I think there's some recommendations that I would like to make still based on the presentation before us. Can you make another motion after? Can we? Yeah, we can. Yep. Um Mr. Husby, do you have any more discussion? I would like to hear what other people have to say. I got no dog in this fight. I don't live in that neighborhood. I don't get all these big garages. My husband was complaining about a garage. I I I don't I mean it sounds like she's got to discuss this with her husband. It sounds like he wants it. Not if we approve it. Mr. Kramer's motion and a second as it lies. I I mean it makes sense what you guys were saying, but this isn't my garage. This isn't my property. So, and I approve that. We could make a recommendation to turn it and city council could approve it like this. It doesn't Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So, you want to vote? You say approve. I approve. Yeah. Okay. I say no. I'm I don't think we're done discussing Hold on. You can't jump the V gun. I am the chair. I call for the votes. I call for the motions. Sounds good. Mr. Kramer, jump the gun on a motion. So, we have a motion and a second on the table. Do we have more discussion? Hearing none, I will call for a vote. Mr. Kramer. Yes. Mr. Husby. nay. And I'll explain why later. Miss Van Dyke or Miss Van Dyke, sorry, I apologize. I approve. I approve. No. Thank you. I vote nay. All right. So, the motion that Mr. Kramer put forward was three to two fails. I'd like to put a motion to rotate 90 degrees. A recommendation. A recommendation to rotate 90° with a recommendation to add a four-way stop. I would ask for a friendly amendment to explore if the building could be adjusted in size to meet the setbacks at that point in time. with an amendment to adjust the size to conform to setbacks at that time. Do I have a second? I would second that. So I have a motion and a second with the amendment. I call for discussion. That is what we should have talked about until we jump the gun. Thank you. All right. So let's hear some discussion on this. Are you talking about rotating at 90 degrees clockwise or counterclockwise? Clockwise. We're going to put the garage fa doors facing west. Mr. Kramer, no. Shouldn't that be in your motion? No. We're making a recommendation to them. So, they can rotate it either way 90°. I think it takes an intelligent person to know which way we're talking about, but sure, we should probably specify rotate it because the garage is facing west. So, the garage doors are facing west, east, east, guys. That's how ridiculous. That's how that's how ridiculous that is. Uh, let's put the gradulars at the house. I don't know if you need to be that specific. We don't need to be that specific. That specific. I appreciate it. But so, that is not a friendly amendment. No, that's not a friendly amendment. No, I'm not interrupting that. It's a challenging lot. I think it's a great idea. They need the space. They've done a lot of upkeep. I commend you guys. I live two blocks away on another busy corner. Everybody rolls all those stop signs between you and I and the government building. So, the stop signs are horrible. God bless you for keeping your child safe. It I walk by your house all the time with my dogs. It's your garage isn't going to change this the stop sign aspect of it given the lot or the west side of your garage right now would be in line with the stop sign as it's marked out today. If you guys look at rotating it, I think it's going to be smooth sailing. You'll get more yard. I I also would like to second what Mr. Husby is saying. I mean, I look at your house. You can see my house from your your backyard. I guess technically speaking, I have the maroon garage doors on 64th, right? Um I think that this is a great this will be a great addition to the community. I think um exploring um rotating it and tucking it in that corner a little bit allows you to have more space for your young children to play and we see them out playing already, right? Um and I agree it's a busy road. Um and I I I think it's behooves the city to explore a stop sign. Um not that we can control it. It's not our road, but we can always ask and maybe we have a bigger hammer than someone else does. Um, so I I I appreciate the willingness to explore um adjusting and finagling it a little bit to conform a little closer with the city uh rules. They're in place, right? That's why we have them. So, um yeah, I think it's a I think it's a solid motion. I think it's a solid compromise. Um and then today neighbors are great, but you never know since it is just a handshake driveway. Um it kind of futureproofs the property, right? So you don't have to worry about those in case you do have someone buy that property in 25 years that causes a problem with that shared driveway future proofs the property. Yes. Can I clarify the motion? Yes, please. M. So uh number one, well first of all we'd incorporate the the conditions uh of the staff recommend recommended uh turn the building 90° adjust the size. Does that also intend to say that both 30-foot setbacks would be met uh by by adjusting that size? That's the you could achieve easily the by turning it. You're still going to have six feet from the principal structure. That's not a problem. Um but it may have to it's going to be real close on the Paris side. That would be the goal. The goal. Let's say that's the goal. Let's say that's the goal. Mr. So the both 30 foot. So all you're really looking for with this recommendation is a uh approve the conditional use permit for the fact that it's in the frontier. Yes. Okay. Yep. And then uh number three uh uh recommend uh the county work with the city on a a potentialway stop. Correct. Yes, sir. Okay. Any more comments? A roll call vote. Yeah. Any more comments from the commission? I would call for a vote again. Uh, Miss Richards, could you help us with that? Um, uh, uh, Husby. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Kramer. Yep. Yes. Nelson. Yes. Um, yes. Uh, everyone's yes on this and the chair. I'll abstain since I live within view. And you're okay. Abstain. So, we have a we have a unanimous Yeah, but you didn't abstain on the last one. So, I vote because it was a tie. I needed to then. So, it's fine. I vote yes if I need a vote. You wouldn't need to. I don't need a vote. I can vote yes. Okay. That's fine. I don't have any. You're fine. Okay. So, just for the applicant to clarify like I do every time. So, this will go before the city council with our recommendation that we just put forth, right? which would be to explore turning the property um fitting it within those setbacks, right? And then that you would only need the conditional to put it in technically your front uh backyard front yard. Front yard if I said that right. Yeah. Which is Yeah, it's confusing because it's the way that house is um set. So that will be um the May 27th city council meeting. Um that'll be at six o'clock here. So you should have the survey. Yes, if you could in advance, probably a week in advance. But, uh, Julie will be in contact with you. So, and then they make the final decision. We just send forth recommendations and they make the final call. Um, that's our but that'll be our recommendation to the city council and then um, one of us will make sure we're there. So, I appreciate your time tonight. Yeah. So, we're going to move on. We have no more public hearings. Do we have any new business? Hearing none. Do we have any old business? hearing none. Uhformational. You guys got a piece of paper here um talking about some upcoming meetings. Um I know we've got a couple applicants for the position opening up on the planning commission. So there'll be some news coming on that here in the near future. Um but I think that's all I have for informationational. Great. Um I would entertain a motion to adjurnn. So move a motion. I need a second. Second motion is second. All those in favor say I. I. Motion carries. Uh, planning commissions closed at 7:07.