[Music] 7 o'clock. We'll call the meeting to order. Abby, would you take the role, please? Yes. Commissioner Humeman H. Close. Hyman. Hyman. Thank you. Commissioner Wagner here. Commissioner Steeler here. Commissioner Y Young here. Commissioner Stender here. Chair Gerard here. We're ask if you're able please stand and join us for the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Chair is looking for a motion to approve the agenda as presented or with changes. So moved. I have a motion. I have a second. I'll second it. I have a motion and a second. It's a non-debatable motion. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. I. Opposed? Abstensions? Motion carries. Chair is looking for a motion to approve the consent agenda considerations. There's one item on it. Approved the minutes from the regular meeting of June 11th, 2025. I'll move that we approve the meeting. I have a motion. Do I have a second? Second. Any discussion? I have one minor correction to the uh minutes on the adjournment. We have uh Commissioner Langnes seconding the motion. He's been off the commission for a while. I honestly don't know who seconded. I'm fairly certain it was Commissioner Young, right? I think so. Open for. All right, I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor signify saying I. I opposed. The abstensions. Motion carries unanimously. Since I can't read what's written in front of me. I missed the open form. We ask if anyone would like to speak to any issue tonight. Please come up to the microphone, state your name and address for the record, spend a couple minutes uh giving us your thoughts on whatever you would like to discuss. Once we have heard from everyone, we will uh move on to the next item. I will tell you that every regular agenda item um on seven, the septic, the solar array, and the uh cannabis products, they all have public hearings. You also have an opportunity at that time to um comment on that. So, would anyone wish to speak at this time at the open forum? Since we see no one moving forward, we'll close the the form open form and we will move on to item 7A the public hearing a variance to allow for a septic system at 102000223rd Street North Midwest Sewer Services and and Sean McFillips resolution number 06-25-25-01 uh I don't know what the PZ is but PZ25-1324 what is that D that is just a tracking number in our internal system. We started using them as a reference number for when we're sending out hearing notices. So that way when someone calls up, we kind of can track them with their case if they're with different staff. We probably don't need to include it on our uh uh agendas, but um that is at least just the kind of case file number in our offices. It's all yours. Excellent. Um well, as Chair Gerard um mentioned, thank you. Uh John and Nancy, I'm gonna probably butcher their last name, but Kuchi uh recently purchased property at 102000 223rd Street North. Um this is an unseeded area of the city. They at the time of inspection, Washington County or excuse me, at the time of sale, Washington County does require septic inspections and it was determined that their septic system did need to be replaced. This is a pretty common thing for commissioners that haven't been on the planning commission for a while. We have a lot of unsured area in Forest Lake and those excuse me, septic systems do need to be replaced in time. Um Sean Mcfillis of Midwest Sewer Services has applied for two variances to 75 foot wetland setbacks for the new septic system. Up on the screen in front of you um or up high or in front of the commission right now. Everything that's yellow on the aerial image is wetland. Those are national wetland uh data, not surveyed wetland data. And so just we always know as a staff when we see a wetland a yellow blob it's bigger than it actually shows up on here. The property was delineated and it was determined that a septic system can a replacement system can go onto the property but cannot go anywhere where it is not within a 75 ft wetland setback. So therefore two um variances are being requested. one from 11 feet from the wetland to the north and 10 feet from the wetland to the south. So be be put in the middle of those two min trying to minimize those wetland setback um encroachments as much as possible. So when we're looking at variances, we look to see if what they're looking to do is reasonable that there's some sort of uniqueness to the property. It's not created by the landowner. It's not just a a want. there's maybe a genuine need, there's no harm to the public, and just kind of overall does it fit with the spirit and the intent of the zoning code in the comprehensive plan. So, in taking a look at this one, and as noted in the staff report, the variances requested represent the smallest possible wetland setback encroachments that could could be achieved on the site while still being able to have a compliant septic system. The hardship arises from kind of those unique site specific conditions in the two wetlands that are there, the proximity of the home to those wetlands, and just that high dry land where a septic system is going to be um able to be achieved. And then um replacing the failing system with a better design, newer design, it's going to yield better environmental benefits, which is going to have a public benefit in the long run. So staff does note in the report that we do recommend you approve this variance on the basis that it does conform to city code requirements for the issuance of a variance. And if the planning commission is favorable, they can move to approve planning commission resolution 06252501. Any questions? Thank you. Any questions to staff? I just had one question. You made the comment at the very beginning that the national delineation that you always kind of assume that the actual is larger than what is shown there. That as a surprise to me. I know in other parts of the country it sometimes can be smaller than what is shown. Oh wet Forest Lakes wet. Yeah, I know that. Um, it's just we have found at least more frequently than not that the national wetland data is smaller than the actual on the ground conditions. It's good to know. Any other questions of staff? Harry? None. Uh, Abby, is is the applicant here? I don't believe that the applicant is here. They did reach out to us uh both Nathan and I this morning given the nature of the request, the limited impacts um the uniquenesses and meeting the conditions um we didn't necessarily feel they had to be here. We always tell applicants that's their right to come or not come. Um and so they chose to not come this evening. That's fine. You know, usually that's at this point if they want to say any additional there is is this is a public hearing. We ask if you wish to speak to this issue, come up to the microphone, state your name and address uh for the record and then spend a couple minutes giving us your thoughts on this application. Once we have heard from everyone who uh wishes to speak, we will close the public hearing. It will come back to the commission for a decision. So, with that, we'll open the public hearing at 7:09 p.m. Does anyone wish to speak to this application? I'll ask one more time. Does anyone wish to speak to this application on the septic system? Seeing no one come forward, we will close the public hearing at 7:10 p.m. Commissioners, what's your pleasure? Chair, I would make a motion that we follow the staff recommendation and approve resolution 06252501. I have a motion. Do I have a second? I'll second. I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? And the resolution includes all of the um staff recommendations. Correct. Correct. Correct. Thank you. Any other questions, comments? Hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed, abstensions? Motion carries. Planning commission is the final uh decision. Unless someone wishes to u contest our decision, they have seven days to contact the city and let them know. There is a fee associated with that, but if they wish to uh contest the decision, uh it will then be handled by the city council. So with that, we will move on to item 7B, public hearing, a variance and conditional you use permit to allow for solar array at 886 Northshore Drive, Faith Lutheran Church. And there's two different PZ numbers. Um we're going to have uh three things here. We have a variance for allow allowable area. That's resolution number 06-25-2502. Conditional use permit to allow for a ground mounted solar energy system. Resolution number 06-25-25-03. And a site plan review resolution number 07-14-25 and we don't have -xx at this time. Uh it's a recommendation only. So the planning commission uh we will be the final decision on steps one and two. They will be separate motions and then we will also need a third motion for the site plan review. So with that Abby it's yours. Thank you chair Jared members of the commission. Faith Lutheran Church uh owns property at 886 Northshore Drive. They've requested um a series of applications to install a groundbounted solar energy system in on their property in the single family residential zoning district. So for commissioners that might not be aware, the city doesn't have a zoning district for institutional uses. Those institutional uses just kind of live in our underlying zoning districts. So, our residential districts often um often by conditional use permit, which means, hey, yeah, you can have this non-residential use there, but we're going to want to put conditions on it. Faith Lutheran Church has an underlying conditional use permit, and then comes back before the city when they want to make amendments to that conditional use permit. So, the request tonight before you for that conditional use permit for that groundmounted solar energy system. We allow for groundmounted solar energy systems in our single family residential zoning district, but we cap them at 200 square feet. The intent for this was to kind of um encourage those uh solar systems to be roof mounted and that we weren't taking up land necessarily in our single family districts for larger kind of solar array systems. Faith Lutheran Church um is part of their older conditional use permit did have an area just to the west of the church. I'm going to zoom in a little bit on this overhead area uh that was is being used for some outdoor recreation area and then open space. Additionally, as part of past expansion plans, Faith Lucen Church had to show this portion of the area to be used for future parking needs. So should the pro should their past expansions ever necessitate more parking or create a parking problem in the neighborhood, they showed us that they could achieve additional parking in that western area. Those use permits and the expansion of the site had are long past. We've determined that that additional parking would not be needed. And so asking for this conditional use permit amendment for this array in this location would not be in conflict necessarily with that past need for possible future parking. Does that make sense so far to everyone? The tricky part, as I mentioned, is we only allow 200 square feet and they are looking at a solar array system that's over 30,000 square feet. So, this is a fairly large um system that would be able to help offset the church's energy needs on the site. As a result, they would they would need to have a variance approved by the planning commission. So, tonight before you again is that conditional use permit and that variance request. Um the in review of this from a staff perspective, looking at all of our commenters that we review, the only uh comment internally was that they were really kind of staying out of that rightway and easement area associated with uh the roadway that runs behind the church. Beyond that, there was no concerns from a city staff watershed district um viewpoints. The church did hold a neighborhood meeting regarding both of these applications on June 19, excuse me, June 12th. Seven members of the public were there. Um they did discuss that with our interim planning staff, members of Faith Lutheran Church. Um it doesn't sound like there were concerns necessarily that were um were asked to be represented in this meeting. And additionally, we did not receive any public comment prior to this meeting. So again, with variances, we look to see that what they're doing is reasonable. there's some sort of uniqueness to the property and there's not going to hurt the public um be harmful to the public in any sort of way. Um this is where it's somewhat gets a little tricky because um the question of whether or not a 30,000 square foot ground mounted system when we would only allow for 200 is reasonable and whether or not there were other reasonable alternatives. So early on in the process, we did talk with Faith Lutheran about why not roof mounted in this area. Um as you look at the roof system for and the complex as a whole for um Faith Lutheran Church, you can see that the church has been designed with a lot of different roof peaks and angles. Now, those roof peaks and angles do because of just sunlight moving overhead do at different times limit the actual absorption of those panels on a roof line where a ground mounted system that's unobstructed by buildings, trees, those sorts of things have full day all sun access. Um, so they did look at other reasonable alternatives. They also determined that the investment that they would make for the smaller sized rooftop array wasn't necessarily going to help offset those energy uses the same way that the groundmounted system can. Now that being said, additionally, um what we also learned is uh Faith Lutheran Church has a geothermal system underneath the solar mounted uh array that they're proposing. So the land area that had been determined for potential future parking should we need it actually has another energy system below it. This would only help complement and offset their energy systems even more. Uh when we so that kind of touches on the uniqueness of the property. The other factor too is that this area isn't necessarily being used for any sort of land use for the church. they don't have adjacent neighbors through there um necessarily that the could you know share a land use. This isn't on a developed roadway where this is land that could ever be developed for another type of land use complimentary to the church itself. And then lastly, um we did look at things like um landscaping, lighting, security signage. Some of those things as part of the use permit aren't really relevant here, but the church is proposing landscaping associated with this to help kind of block some of the visual nature of the array to the properties to the south. So overall, uh staff's assessment is that this isn't going to be any sort of public detriment. Uh it would actually probably help the church and then also just the local energy needs if they don't use all of the energy in the future. Generally speaking, um, it conforms to kind of the spirit intent of the code. Now I can see uh Commissioner Young looking at me and I think one of the reasons that the city has very strong solar groundmounted solar restrictions was that we did not want to see land uses land areas kind of being I wanted to use the word gobbled up but gobbled up by lesser productive land uses. We're an urban community and we see that, you know, solar farms all around us. This was one of the ways that I think the city wanted to limit that. We also didn't necessarily want to see every single one of our residential properties just being filled with solar panels. This is definitely a unique site which warrants kind of that conversation about the uniqueness and how reasonable this is in this area. Uh there are two resolutions in front of you tonight. you have act to take action on the conditional use permit and the variance request. Every conditional use permit needs a site plan approval. Unfortunately, our code is a little tricky in that when there is an amended site plan, those go to the council. So, tonight before you is consideration of resolution 06252502 approving a variance and then 06252503 approving a conditional use permit. Then also that council resolution for recommendation. SAS recommendation is that the the project does con generally conform to the city code standards and we would recommend approval of those two resolutions as well as recommendation of the site plan approval to the council. Representatives of the church are here tonight. You have questions for them. Do you have questions for me? Questions to staff. I have two, but I always like try to let everybody go first. Um, in Fates, uh, narrative, um, they talk about having a 7 foot fence. Uh, I believe in a residential we're only allowed six. We are, we do allow for a greater than six by conditional use permit. if I missed our analysis in of that in this um that can be added to the conditional use permit of your consideration tonight. My my other one on the cup is when this goes needs to be removed when it's defunct um they need to be responsible to remove it. There's nothing in the cup that states st it's wholly on their property. So are you whether they remove it or not, we don't care. Well, there was when it's outlived its useful life. Yeah. Sure. I guess um I do think that that is something that could be considered substantially proportionate to the request. However, we wouldn't necessarily do that for any other type of man-made improvement that's outlived its useful life. I think that that's definitely something that this the commission can consider. It's just not something that we would condition. It's it's a it's a newer condition that I would say we h I don't recall us ever imposing. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions of staff hearing? None. Is the applicant is here today. Would they like to add anything to uh what the city staff has presented? I do have a couple of questions for y'all if with your permission sir. Well, uh is there someone speaking for faith tonight this evening? We don't bite. I can my name is Jennifer Tolsman and I live at 756 Northshore Drive which and part of our house is right on um 8th Avenue Northeast. So it faces for 41 years I've walked through the alley to church every morning or on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights and everything else. So I'm right there. I'm a neighbor. Um, I was serving as the council president at the time that we began our first exploration about solar and what can we do. I've been a member through the G geothermal stuff. Um, I've been involved with talking with the other neighbors who um all of them specifically who are on uh northeast 8 that butt up right against the area where that would be. So, and at church we've done um we've done church meetings. We've done we've I walked and talked with all of those neighbors personally with the pastor and everything. So, it's we've been upfront about everything since our first discussion about all of that. And we're trying to be good stewards of um our finances for um our energy use, but also for the earth. And that's why the geothermal um project went in some years ago. So um I don't know if we can answer if I can answer your specific questions, but if I can't, Daniel or Kell can. So all right, commissioners questions for the applicant. Yeah. Um, you you stated in here what your typical yearly use, 341,000 kilowatt hours is your yearly use. And I looked and looked and looked to see how many kilowatt hours this particular system is going to generate per year. Uh, an estimate. Um, and I couldn't find that. I I did find some estimates online, but they they vary so much by manufacturer. Usually we try and have our variances be as small a variance as possible. This one is 132 times what our our our limits are. That's a lot. And um what I one of my questions is since you know this when we look at our variances um they have to be not just for an economic gain um and so making sure that that this is the smallest system that would meet your solar needs. Um, and this is a very large system and why it needs to be that large. And I'm going to is there Daniel? You want to address that? Daniel can come up and it he is our finance guy and at church. So, um, I'll let him tell you and he also lives here in town, too. So, my name is Daniel Demer. live at 8588 2115th Street North and I'm the finance manager at Faith and I've been a member there for 18 years or so. Um so we started looking into this um maybe 10 years ago, Roof Mount was the only option at the time and it was not feasible. So with the the law the way it is uh I think a year and a half ago uh it became acceptable for nonprofits to get a direct tax incentive from the federal government rather than as a tax credit. So you just get a check as a nonprofit. So that's when we really started looking at this as an option. Um we spend $4,000 a month on electricity. Uh the size of the system is roughly 300,000 kilowatt hours annually. Uh, so we we really can't put enough solar panels on our property to fully offset our use unless it's a particularly sunny year. Um, we use about twice as much gas uh natural gas in a year as an average home and about 30 times as much electricity. The geothermal system uses a lot of electricity. So, um, from an environmental perspective, it's it's been great. Uh we we have not burned tons of natural gas over the last 20 years that the geothermal system has been in, but um electric rates have gone up a lot since then. We've done a lot of work over the last 10 years reducing our energy use. Um I think it was 2012 or 13, we used 520,000 kilowatt hours. Um our our staff has done a great job throughout the years of doing any and every project we can to limit our use and we're kind of at the limit of what we can do which is why we really started looking at this. Um and just the fence thing I am pretty sure it's a six-foot fence in the application as well. So I don't know how a seven got in there. I believe it will be a sixoot fence. That's the intent. Yeah. Otherwise, you'd be back here for another var. There's no reason for the extra foot. We're just trying to keep out deer. Other questions, Susan? That'll that'll do it for now. Other commissioners, can I just ask one quick question of the treasur? Did you say that right now you're using 3,000 kilowatts? Uh uh 320 24,000. your high end in your in your letter was 341,000 kilowatt hours per year and then the system was going to be 300,000 300,000 okay so if it's a particularly sunny year we might hit 100% of our annual electric usage but we tried to size it you know to offset that to to balance the intent is to balance not to produce anything more than we need but yeah it's it's much much bigger than the 200 square foot. So, um, unrelated to that that you have proof of parking, 60ome spots are being eliminated that you may be required for later and and I'm fine with that. We all know that churches for the most part are not growing in size or it's very modest at best. Uh my question has to do with a couple years back and I don't know if it's three four you were here uh with trying to put some housing for veterans and tiny houses on this northeast corner of your property which would have taken some of the parking. Uh where does that sit? Um it it's not happening. Um there's not enough support. That's a solid answer. I I mean I'm fine wherever it sits, but I just I'm more concerned about the parking. Yeah. Um than where that project sits. But if that's dead in the water, as they say, I'm happier. Even with the recent legislative change. Yeah, there's there's no push at faith for Okay. tiny houses at our property. We have um several members of our church that were part of that group that are pushing hard to help other churches to to be able to host a sacred settlement if they would like one, but we're not pursuing one. Other questions of the applicant here? Thank you very much. We may have questions after the public hearing, although it doesn't look like a rousing crowd for the public hearing, but we'll see. Thank you. Uh this is a public hearing. We ask if you'd like to speak to this application uh on any of the three items, the variance, the conditional use permit, or the site plan, please come up and state your name and address for the record. Spend a couple minutes giving your thoughts on this application. Uh once we have heard from all parties, we will close the public hearing and bring it back to the commission for further discussion and decisions. So, with that, we'll open the public hearing at 7:31 p.m. Does anyone wish to speak to this application? And I believe Abby, you said beginning there was nothing to read in on this one either. Nope. You know, we really should play the Jeopardy tune here. I'll ask one more time. And does anyone wish to speak to this application? Seeing no one come forth, we will close the public hearing at 7:32 p.m. Commissioners, further discussion before we do any motions. I remind you we'll be doing three motions. One for the variance, one for the CUP, and one for the site plan review. The planning commission has the final say on the first two and the third one will be a recommendation to city council. So discussion concerns philosoph I've got some philosophical concerns about this um and it it's more about the variance um as we look at how we decide on variances um one thing is this a landowner created issue And this and and if it's just a landowner created issue and and it's not like the septic system we looked at earlier, there's just you got to have a septic system and there's nowhere else to go. This is entirely ownored. It they're they're making their own problem in a way. So the hardship Yeah. Yeah. There's there's there's no hardship here. Um we say that you know a straight economic condition is is not grounds for a variance. We work really hard with applicants to say what is the smallest variance. You know the one before us it was okay 10 feet um on on either side. This is 132 times 163 times what our what we would normally be allowed. And I'm a fan of of solar generation. I am a fan, those of you that know me know I work hard on environmental issues. Um and it is just the fact that as other folks look at how we are evaluating this variance. I can see folks making very strong arguments that well, you know, you let them have this large variance and it was something of their own making and it was not something that was unique to the property and it um was a strictly economic decision. Um, and so that's that's where I'm really hung up is is on the variant side. Um I think that they're doing on the principle of and and how it will affect us when people come in the future looking for variances um and looking for some sort of um similar or congruent permission that's way beyond our boundaries. Different mechanism we can use other than a variance in something like this. Um the only other opportunity and we did discuss through this with the church was changing the code to allow for something like an institutional use exception essentially. Um with that there are you know there's pros and cons to every application. There's ways that the application can be perfect for this site, but you look at the next institutional use and you say, "Oh man, we didn't mean for that." Right? Look at other institutional properties within the city, other churches that have excess land. Would you still want that size of this thing in those locations? Um, uh, that's the only other option available. Um, and I will say it's we talked through this with the church and staff directed them in this way because of the potential negative implications of a wholesale code amendment. I can understand um Commissioner Young's concerns completely and the only thing that I would say is that each case is reviewed in their own uniquenesses which sometimes I understand is a harder case to make later when someone says yeah but what about them? Um the uniqueness here is yes it is a large sized array feature tucked back in a residential neighborhood along a you know onramp to a highway. That was about the only reason that I would say staff could argue that this could not fit with the neighborhood fit wasn't a detriment in some way to the public. over time. Paul and I have been here a long time and precedent has a way of coming up to bite you sometimes and has bitten us hard in the past and and that's that's my only concern with this project is um you know I I would be in support of of the conditional use um I'd be the site plan I have I have no issues with that. I like the fat fact that you're doing an underplanting with natives um and pollinators and um take a look at some of the state grant programs for your plantings um blue thumb and and things like that. and you have an active Washington County master gardener group that is um specifically tasked with pollinators and butterflies and things that would be of great assistance to you and might even provide find ways to help with your planting as well as the watershed district and Washington County Conservation District if you hadn't reached out to both of them. Um, I will just note that the the conditional use permit and site plan amendment are only needed for the ground mountain array system. So, should the commission move to deny the variance request but approve the conditional use permit, you are in essence authorizing that use. And so, um, it's kind of they they run hand in hand. It's an all or nothing. I don't mean to say it like that, but, uh, you know what I mean? You can't necessarily approve one and then deny the other. Um because I think inadvertently it could be argued that if you approved the use permit, you are thereby approving the use of that size of a solar system on that property inadvertently approving the variance. I don't know if that makes sense. Our newest commissioner over there is looking at me thinking, man, this is you talking talking in circles. But commissioners, any other comments? Yeah, I have one. Um, this isn't going to bankrupt the church, is it? I mean, is there a separate fund set aside just for this or has this come out of the general fund for the church? Yeah. So, uh, if all, uh, rebates and credits and whatnot are, uh, approved, this would save the church about $2,000 a month. If none of the, um, federal or state programs are approved, it's pretty much a wash. Just the the regular $4,000 a month electric payment instead goes to the loan for this project. Good. Thank you. And Abby, to make sure I get this correct, the only reason we're seeing this for variance is because it's in the res single family residential. Yes. Most of our um urban residential districts wouldn't allow that size of a a groundmounted solar, right? So if again even if if this was 30,000 feet uh square feet on their rooftops you wouldn't have seen it. It's the ground mounted nature in excess of 200 square feet. That size I believe if I remember correctly increases based on the size of the property. So even at 200, that's a still like one of the largest sizes you could have in our residential districts because these are laws designed for residential properties, not necessarily for a church property, which is why we didn't need a variance out at the hockey arena when school district put they had a rate that's in the industrial they rooftop. No, didn't they do ground also? I'd have to look. I bet it's who asked uh her hockey coach here. I thought it was is not on the ground. I don't think that there is. I didn't think there was a ground mounted system out there, but that being said, it could be because that yes, that is an industrial district and we maybe allow for a greater allowance of those um groundmounted systems in our more in our non-residential districts. any way around it. I wasn't here uh when we adopted our solar um regulations. I'm not going to presume there's anyone up there right now that was here, but I do I can look at them and say that our solar ordinances really were designed to reduce groundmounted systems within the community. Um, I think we did not want to see land getting I think my words earlier were gobbled up with this type of land use. You're going to define that technical term. Sorry. So unpro and the 200 that was pretty much at the time would handle the needs of one house. That's 200 square feet typically for a house. A 10 by 20 space in your backyard. You could have put it in your back setback area. Probably wouldn't have impeded on your neighbors. Those sorts of things, comments, discussion. My personal opinion, although I'm with Commissioner Young, that this is a large amount. Doing the quick math, this also, if the church wasn't here and they were developing it, they would have um at least 22 homes on this area without a cup. So, they'd have at least 4,400 square feet. So, now it's only eight times. So, we're getting right now. It's not near as bad anymore, you know. Um I personally, you could pick 22 homes. It's they have it's almost 400,000 square feet. You could have gotten more than it's like eight acres. Yeah. I mean, you could, if you look at up on the screen here, here's what eight homes here, there's eight. You probably could have gotten 32 homes on there. So, eight homes. So, by two 28 by 200. What's your good math there, Susan? I'm sorry, it's late. All right. So my point being that, you know, if there were houses here, we'd be able to allow more. They already have a limited amount they can do with this. The other option is for them to have a parking lot there. So do we want more ground covered with parking or solar array? And solar array, at least it goes into the ground. So you know, it's a lot, but but I don't I personally don't have a problem with it. and um probably get bit someday. But that's my opinion. So, one person's other comments, concerns, opinions. Could they as an option put the solar arrays above the parking lot? I don't think that changes the variance though, right? Yeah, your variance would still be there. still have the open green space though. And essentially they will have a significant amount of of permeable area because the the ground mount doesn't take up a lot of ground square footage. They'll maintain the permeable area and and if they are if they follow through with the plantings there'll there'll be a um a green environmental benefit there. I I I get all those things. But that's that's not where my issue lies. Other comments? It just we're not meeting what we say are our rules on when to grant or not grant a variance. And so that's that's kind of where I'm at. But I'm not going to throw myself in front of the bulldozer either. I'll make a motion to u approve resolution 06-25-25-02 for the approval of variance request to allow ground mounted solar panels in the front yard of the property located at 866 Northshore Drive. And there's more with that along with the three conditions that staff or four conditions that the staff recommends. I have a motion. Do I have a second? Second. Have a motion and a second. Discussion on the motion. Hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. I. Opposed. Abstain. Please. Abstensions. Abstain. We have one, two, three, four. 402. Yes. So motion passes. Motion passes. Jerry is looking for a motion for the conditional use permit request. I'm on a roll. I'll recommend approval of the amended conditional use permit. Resolution 06-25-25-03 allows for the approval of the conditional U permit for Faith Lutheran Evangel Evangelical Church uh subject to the following conditions and there are 12 conditions. I have a motion. Do I have a second? Second. I have a motion to second. Any discussion on the motion? Hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. Abstensions. I feel like I have to abstain because I did before, but it's kind of a different issue. I I'll still abstain because it won't matter. All right. So, we have a 501. Motion carries. Mr. Chair, I would move that we recommend to the city of council approval of the site plan resolution number 07-14-25, etc. along with the 12 attachments with the attachments and conditions. I have a motion. Do I have a second? Second. I have a motion and a second. Any discussion on the motion? Hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. I. Opposed abstensions abstain and one abstension. So 501 motion carries. So tonight planning commission approved your variance and your conditional use permit that will go into effect in seven days unless someone uh go comes forth and wants to uh disagree with the condition uh disagree with the planning commission's decision. um if they they need to inform the city within 7 days regarding the site plan review that is the final will come to the city council and they will approve it and that will be on July 14th July 14th's agenda. Thank you all for coming this evening. Best wishes with your project. Thank you. We'll move to item 7 C, a public hearing for an interim use permit to allow for the sale of cannabis products at 508 Lake Street Street South Lake View Leaf LLC. Resolution number 07-14-25-XX. It's a recommendation only for us. So Abby, are you presenting? I am. Thank you. So, um, some of the members of the commission may remember that within the last year, the city adopted new provisions for, uh, ret or adult cannabis use within the city of Forest Lake to align with the state statutes that followed thereafter. Essentially, the city's um, ordinances allow for different types of cannabis uh, businesses within the city, but not all types of businesses in all types of districts. And generally speaking, many of them are only allowed by interimuse permit. So an interim use permit is very similar to a conditional use permit. You just saw a conditional use permit amendment before you tonight. The interim use permit is it's a use that's allowed. We have rights to put conditions on it, but we're going to put a time frame on it. And the reason that we did that with our cannabis-based businesses is we have a hunch the state might want to change their laws within the next few years just looking at uh law trends of cannabis based businesses in other states and then this state. So um our ordinance allows for retail sales of cannabis by interim use permit in the MU2 zoning district. So that's our mixeduse two zoning district kind of that highway 61 corridor and an application has been made for beeswax dispensary to be located at a portion of 50 lake 508 Lake Street South. And so um a couple of things that we first look at when we get an inquiry for a cannabis based business and I will let you know that we have had dozens of inquiries for cannabis based businesses within the city. not just retail use but everything from growing, manufacturing, processing, the whole gamut. So um but this is our first uh application of this nature. The first thing that we look at is to see if they were are within or um any of our buffer distance requirements. So, as a reminder, the city has imposed buffers from other types of cannabis-based businesses because we did not want to see a high concentration of these businesses or kind of a a row of businesses necessarily or any neighborhood that would be concentrated with these businesses. Also, uh buffers from schools, parks, daycarees, and treatment facilities, residential treatment residential treatment facilities. um this property is not located with any of the buffer areas. Then the next thing that we look to uh is that that use is allowed is a the retail cannabis in an area that allows for retail and allows for that retail cannabis only about 3,200 square feet of the property is being proposed of of the existing building and that would be located kind of in the southern portion of the building. from the exterior of the building on Highway 61, you wouldn't even notice any changes to the building. Be separate entrance um that's existing coming into the south of the building completely because this is being located in an existing structure. There's no setback changes, no changes to parking because we're just swapping one type of retail for another type of retail. There's no changes to the landscaping. The applicants did propose uh security plan, lighting plan, and odor mitigation plans. So, our police chief has taken a look at security plans, found them to be sufficient. Odor mitigation is they're just going to put in a new rooftop unit specifically for that retail um space. It actually if I remember correctly and forgive me it's been a little while since they've kind of started the application process but that isn't even a requirement of the state because everything that they will have in this facility will be prepackaged items and in theory you just don't have that odor issues like you do where you are growing processing manufacturing cannabis space. So generally with our use permits um you know we're really looking to see does it conform with the comp plan the zoning code for all does it fit right that's what we're looking you just kind of went through one yes it had a variance attached to it this does not but generally you look to see if does it fit where it's being proposed um we're just swapping out one type of flower for another didn't mean to actually kind of say it But it's retail sales and other than it being adult use cannabis there and which it's meeting all of our uh city code requirements for staff does not find this to be any sort of an issue. With interim use permits, you actually don't have outright authority to approve them like you do with conditional use permits because of our interim nature and because we want just that extra little security on them. You make recommendation to the council. tonight um for your consideration is recommendation to the council which staff would recommend you recommend. How many times could I say recommend? Um that you recommend approval to the city council. There is a draft resolution in your packet that will be forwarded to the city council if the planning commission so makes that recommendation. July 4th uh 2025 that it does have 12 July 14th 2025 does I was gonna be impressed 12 conditions I there's a lot of dates there's a lot of stuff up in here I don't know how I just thought replacing flower for flower but they probably thought of that long before now anyways there's 12 conditions in that resol draft resolution any questions applicants are here if you guys have any questions it is public hearing commissioners questions for staff. Yeah, I got a question. Um, do they have to take it off site to use the cannabis? I mean, is there do they have like a little cafe inside there where they can light up inside the store or Yep. It is only retail sales. And so if um maybe now that we're getting applications, I could also on one of our upcoming meetings just kind of go through what were the uses we determined where, but this is not an on-site consumption facility. Um I believe, if I remember right, the only places we had indicated we would allow for on-site potential consumption would be in our downtown area and then potentially in our egg areas as accessory uses. But I will bring all that back before the commission or follow up with a separate email for folks. Uh does that include the parking lots too? Yes. And the state of Minnesota does also have some standards regarding uh adult use cannabis in public places. Um generally speaking, your your home, your property is allowed, but once you start to get outdoors in ways, it gets kind of defined differently. Um, the city also does have a law that does prohibit the use of cannabis in public parks. So, um, just know that there are some other local and state level regulations in place that all that would be allowed to be used here is the sale or excuse me, used is not the only land use allowed for your consideration tonight is the actual just pointto-oint point sale of a product to a patron consumer. Abby, do you know what meeting that um Amanda presented the ordinance? Because that would be online, right? Yeah. And the reason I say that um is that there was like we were there and there was probably 10 or 12 different classifications for what we're allowing and it tells you what's allowed in each one. And I would say out of the five of us that were there, three of us were still confused at the end of that meeting. So, I mean, there's a lot of splitting hairs on this. So, if we can find that date for you, it's it's worth watching it because Amanda's a city law attorney and she presented the whole here's what the state's requiring the whole nine yards. I will follow up. I've got a note here, too. Um, I should have I should have done a little bit more refresher, and I apologize. You know, it's easy for me to be like, "Hey guys, it's allowed. Click the check box. Let's move on. Um, but to just do do a little bit of a much more education, I'll follow up at least with an email with some resources of here is your zoning map, here are the uses that are allowed in which zoning districts, and then find those links to past discussions. Susan, um, I I think you're entirely right that the rules are going to change like crazy. Um, and talking with a couple of other cities, they they're seeing that, too. I'm wondering why, Abby, you want to go with a fiveyear instead of the one-year. Um because I would really hate to have them sort of caught between a rock and a hard place if with state rules changing and then they say, "But our city permit." Um so I I we've always talked about one year and and that seems reasonable to me. It would allow for things to happen with state changes. So the one the thing that I would say about one year is one year sometimes just is not enough. By the time they finalize their permitting requirements with the state, they get in with building code requirements. It could be that this business is not actually operational for another 3 to six months. So there we've just eaten half of the IUP. Um, additionally, uh, the review of use permits, especially in a short staffed environment, just cannot be guaranteed in one year. I would say if the commission is not favorable to the five-year, I would and pulling it back maybe three, but I would rather sit with a legal nonconformity for a little bit longer than have to run through this process unnecessarily in another year. We've got several other interim use areas that that I can think of and and essentially unless there's a reason to go in and look at it, um we've either had complaints or the the folks are coming to us and asking for some changes because of of something that happened. We've just pretty much set it aside, but the ability to review every year is there. I think you should you can always write that in as a condition of approval. The city has the right potentially to review each year. Um I don't think our code necessarily allows for that. I can double check. Um and forgive me, Commissioner Young, in some ways I'm still a young staff here. Young staff. I'm still a new staff here. three years in. I have not processed we have not processed an interimm use permit together. So if there has been a city history of one-year permits, you haven't done that in I don't think there is because pardon bco. Yeah, but that was really, you know, I'm thinking of the church where Mike's discount for those are fiveyear ones that we did there. So I don't have any problem with the fiveyear. Okay. Other questions? Not for staff. Other questions for staff. Abby, where do we sit from a state standpoint? They haven't awarded any lack of permits or they have. Yep. So the the um state had done their So the state has Forgive me, I will not get this right because I don't know that anybody can necessarily. The state has two different types of licenses. We have social equity applicants and then we have other non-social equity applicants. And you can only have as many non-social equity licenses as you have total social equity licenses if I remember correctly. And the social equity licenses were issued first and then there was a lottery for all other uh comparables. So if you had five in one bucket, you can have five in the other. But in the five bucket of non-social equity, there are probably hundreds. And out of those, only those five get them would by lottery. After that lottery occurred just a few weeks ago, a month ago, I don't even know what time is right now. Um the um the state issued all of its uh licenses that it could issue to date. So, we do have um they have a license or they can they have the pre-authorization to obtain their city zoning l permissions and then once they're done with the city's zoning and licensing then they can go back and finalize their license with the state. So, it this with this new application we did also learn um just on some requirements that the city staff will be asking for upfront. Uh we want that pre-authorization just up front. We're just not even going to start monkeying around with the applications until we see that somebody's got legitimately gone through the state because if they've gone through their state processes to date, they're going to have everything that they just handed to us and then we process it through you folks. So, other questions to staff hearing none right now. The applicant wish to add anything? Do we have questions for the applicant? We have questions. So, who is speaking for the applicant this evening? Please come up. State your name and address for the record, please. My name is Michael Donley. I live in Bethl, 24133 Taylor Street. Susan, do you have questions? Yeah. Um, the the location is home to a couple of businesses and, you know, the flowers and the gifts and the and the the apparel, etc., etc., and the the coffee shop, the the bakery, um, how are you going to segregate and and right now it's very free flowing. Um, people come I'm part of the nine o'clock beautifification group thing. Yeah. So, I I I I tend to watch it. Um, how are you going to make sure that that you don't you you're segregating your cannabis sales and and it's not I understand. So where I'm going with that? Yeah, for sure. It's being partitioned off. So the the you won't have any access from any other part of the building except for So there's construction going to assuming everything goes through for the construction. It'll be its own piece on the side of the building. And the idea was to have it on the side of the building so that it would kind of this inlet is for these customers. And if even if you asked, we could mark the parking spaces as well that it's for that use. So it's kind of it's not on the main strip of the road as well. Okay. And your business hours for this are much different than for any of the rest of the facilities. So folks won't be able to say mess with your flowering and gift areas. No, it's totally separate. It will from the outside or even from the inside. You won't even know. It's a different uh compartment of the building al together. I didn't really get that from Sorry. There's going to be a partitioned wall that will split the floral shop. Um the main entrance that you have there right now is going to be part of the floral shop. The other entrance will only give you access to the dispensary itself. It's the only entrance and you can't uh it's getting a division wall put up. So you won't it won't be the same space at all. Okay. So Susan, for reference, this is their kind of cooler display and their counter. Everything kind of I kind of think of in the little bit more gift section than clothing and floral section will be um split off including the stairwells up to the mezzanine area. Great. Okay. Yeah. So, in your drawing, the area to the left of the green is where your sales are going to be, your cannabis sales. That's right. That's behind the counter. So, the green that you see there, that would be uh point of sale. Those are the countertops from an aerial view looking down on the floor map. Um, blue is along the wall where the floral shop is, but that will be where all of the products will be displayed. Okay. And uh there will be on there's a security desk as well right at the entrance ID and everybody. So no one's allowed in the space unless it uh goes through the state verification system which is also integrated into the POSOS system as well. Okay. Okay. That all right. I I was worried about the hours of the operation and segregating and then for sure the entrances um and and tra interior building traffic not comingling. Correct. That will never happen. All right. Thank you. Yep. Other questions? Yeah, I got one. So, in other words, that ID system so no one named Mcloven will be able to correct access. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Yep. when you come in. Um, so we're using two of the there's two big regulatory systems that are known throughout the United States. One of them is metrics, so you can track the product from seed to sale. So no matter when it was created, you'll know exactly where it is in the state and if it's been sold or what store it's sitting on and what shelves it on. Along with that is Duchy, which is a huge company that uh integrates with metric, which allows for ID reading and they integrate into the state database. So, it has to be a verified uh state ID that gets scanned and they won't even be allowed on the showroom floor until it gets verified and it'll put them into the system and then it'll also this that same system will show what the product actually uh what the consumer bought as well all the way from the seed. We can trace it back all the way to where it was created in Minnesota. Having been in dispensaries in Colorado and let's say some other state, um I'm used to a fortress to get in. You have just one single door. I'm used, you know, usually when you go in, you're stopped because there's another door. You see the security, the armed guard standing there. Y they badge you like you're going to do and then they and only then can they move into the space. Is there there a reason you don't have the fortress or? It wasn't a requirement by the state. I like that. One of the things for those doors, they will have mag locks on them. So, the security guide will actually have to hit a foot pedal or a buzz in order for the doors to be unlocked each for each consumer. And that was one of they're I think they're I want to say they're 1,200 pound mags. And so, the framing of the door will come off before the door actually gets busted through. That's one of the bigger requirements that we've been seeing and it's been kind of the standard I've seen across the board for everybody that's going through regulatory right now. Um I've came across one dead man door. I think that's what they call that where you have to scan into one room, get IDed, and then scanned into the next room. And I've seen that at one location so far and I've seen a lot of these for Minnesota already. This is I'm fine. If the police chief's fine with it, I'm fine with it. You know, I just, you know, since it's a cash operation, there's just a lot of action going on and you know, your employees need to be safe and I'm sure the police chief has worked this out, but that's my concern. Sure. The chair, are there any security measures between the new dispensary and the adjoining space? So, if you were to have a security issue inside of this tenant space, is there any carryover or crossover that could affect general public in the space next? There will be only one access door, I think, on the second floor that will even connect the two. So, they they would have to go through a wall on the lower level. It will be, you can't tell it from this drawing because of how it's laid out. I essentially made the the mezzanine area up top. This I tried to show you the actual floor. We only have the downstairs on that side and you have to go up the stairs to get to any of the other rooms and you're cut off from the rest of the room. You'd have to go through a wall to get into the other spaces. Is there any security features to the walls that are getting built? I mean, is this a concrete wall or is it just a standard three and five? It'll be a standard, I believe. Yeah. Framed, steel, drywall. Yeah, correct. Other questions ask there's a lot of um security the security portion on the state level is the the toughest and most rigorous portion of the regulations and all of those have to be met before we can get issued a license from the state as well at the final walkthrough. When are you hoping to open your doors? Depends on this. And then also um build out buildout could take up to 60 days. So um maybe in about three months here it would be really nice. That also is falling on the fact that uh we need to make sure the state is up to standards right now. They haven't uh they're not quite ready yet. They're having I know they still have to implement the metric system that I was telling you about from seed to sale. And then there's a whole portion of not only just getting the space ready and conditioned and put together for it, but then do we have products ready to go and so that's another obstacle we're dealing with. Thank you. We may have more questions for you later. Is that everything? Well, for now. Okay. Thank you. This is a public hearing. We ask that anyone who wishes to speak to this application, please step up to the microphone, state your name and address for the record, spend a couple minutes giving you your thoughts. Once everyone has been heard, we will close the public hearing and bring it back for further discussion and a decision from the planning commission. So, with that, we'll open the plan a public hearing at 8:12 p.m. Does anyone wish to speak to this application? Abby, is there anything to read be read into the record tonight? Nope. Thank you. I'll ask again. Does anyone wish to speak to this application? Seeing no one come forward and nothing to be read in, we'll close the public hearing at 8:13 p.m. Commissioners, discussion, motions, what would you like to do? So, what is it that we are specifically approving tonight with this? We're recommending or recommending the city council either approve or deny. Yeah. You make the recommendation on the approval or denial of the interim use permit for retail cannabis sales at 508 Lake Street South. Okay. So in the in the discussion I I I remember he saying that security is the most rigorous aspect from the state and there's a reason for that and I guess I what I want to understand is why we would want to move forward with this at at this point in time and be the guinea be a guinea pig out there when there's there's going to be I mean right now we know the state is still changing and changing and changing and you why would we want to go down this road right now? that that's just I want to put that out there to the others and see what their thoughts are. I'm gonna answer for Abby and with your permission that we have a business that wants to take advantage of being one of the first in the state. There's a competitive advantage there and you know they've requested that the city grant them a license. And so it's not so much that the city is putting itself out there as there is a business that is interested in um in starting that business here and gaining you know whatever competitive advantage there is to um being one of the first. I would just add to that that we have state local regulations and state regulations that allow for the use and so our job is just to make sure that there's reasonable conditions on that use and the appropriate time frame for that. Um but generally speaking um if a project conforms to the code the use is allowed in the district we have very little grounds for denial. Remember that triangle thing that you know our our levels of authority. Other discussion commissioners chair is looking for a motion. Are there thoughts on the commission about five years versus a a slightly shorter time? I would like to see a shorter time. What would you like to see? I'd like to see one year, but I apparently that doesn't work so well. So what what would you be in favor of, Susan? I can understand that the the staff concerns with with one year because this is new because we don't know how it's going to be working because the state's still working this out. I'd like to see two or three years review at at the at the at the longest and and if everything's cooking along, we don't even have to it doesn't have to be a formal administrative review. It's just that we retain the opportunity to review if if there are if there are issues that that come up. I mean, I would prefer to, but if if again, if I don't want to hold up the I don't want to hold things up. So, so I just want to clarify for the record, our interimm use permits actually have they expire on the date. Y um they have the right to come in and ask for those extensions. So it's not a we review them, it's a date certain it's done. And so um my only you know hesitation in one year is as I mentioned that doesn't give them much time if they still have maybe a month or so to work through things with the state and a few months of buildout. We're already getting halfway through their interim use permit. Um, additionally, we the code um does also indicate you can ask for those extensions, but it sounds like you really can only ask for those extensions for two additional time periods of one year. So, the way the code really reads is our IUPs really should only be allowed for three years. Forgive me for not kind of really fine tooththing through that right now. Um, I would say that the three years we definitely are going to see what's going to have happened with the state, but by then I think that we may have changed our regulations too that would require it to be a conditional use permit or even outright permitted by that point. You know, we've done an IUP and they've been up for review, but they've been for more than a year after the first term. I know the church was either five or 10 additional. So, That's just the first I've heard of a one year. So, we might want our research a little tighter. That may have been something they did specifically for the cannabis. I I I Yes, all those meetings, but I've slept since then. I mean, granted, I will fully admit I again have not been here going through our interimm use permit, but I can't necessarily say um with the greatest certainty that all prior staff followed all of our regulations to a black and white tea. Um, I'm just reading black and white law right now. And I think that we could even change that by the time their interim use permit. In our next meeting, we're going to talk about some of our application processes and procedures for just this sort of thing. There's some nuances that we really need to kind of fix in our code. I I have no problem bringing it down to three years. My personal opinion is it'll it'll take that long for the state to make another decision. I mean, one year the state won't even know it's approved it yet. I mean, they just move at snail's pace and then it's rapid fire and then we need to give the applicants time to respond to the changes. Then, Mr. share with with your permission. Um, I'm going to make a motion that we recommend to the city council um approval of re resolution number 7 07-14-25 um regarding pardon me the 071425 um regarding the permit to allow for sale of Canada's products with the change that it be for a three-year instead of fiveyear period as review period as originally drafted. I have a motion. Do I have a second? I'll second discussion on the motion. Susan, um, where is it that it's five years versus three? I'm reading it here and I'm looking to see which one we need to change or is this an addition? I saw where it was in there. See, I don't have a printer at home, so I can't do all the the cool yellow things. Um um it's condition number two that the IEP is valid upon approval by the council remain in effect until July 14th, 20230. So, well, I can note in just the staff memo and uh verbal presentation to the council that the recommendation is to pull that back a couple years. So, to 2028. 2028. Y. All right. So, it would read So, um, condition number two of the resolution is that the IUP be valid upon approval by the city of Forest Lake City Council and shall remain in effect until July 14, 2028, except um with with the continued exceptions. All right. Discussion on the motion session hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. Abstension. Motion carries unanimously. So this will go before the city council on July 14th. Correct. They will make the final decision on this. But good luck on your project. Hope you're successful. We'll move on to uh item eight, discussion of a con concept plan review for Bittersweet Division. They have the PIN number there and Jiren Johnson Development LLC. Um typically Abby, the applicant is here. Are we having this item? Um, so the uh this item is you yes I would say that we still can have this item. It just provides non-binding feedback. The developer is not here. I did not hear if there was any um reason to not be here. I will say the city planning commission did review a concept and provide con comments on this concept on a similar concept plan on this parcel prior to my time here. But within the last five years, so the developer had initially it didn't come before the planning commission. I don't believe so. But you know, there's been, you know, it's not far from my house here and it's that's fine. I just know that I don't recall this coming before us. Okay. Um, it may have been intended, but I think it might have been pulled, but yeah, that could be. Um, I know that staff has reviewed it within the last five plus years. Um, so the I mean there's no requirements in our code that developers have to be pres developers applicants have to be present. So I would say the idea to just get this in front of folks, see what we're thinking, provide some of those nonbinding feedback. Remember the last meeting you had two different concept plans. Concept plans just are high level. What are we thinking here? So I'll run through it fairly quickly. This um is a part of kind of a phase development of bittersweet. This would actually be Bittersweet potentially four. Um I couldn't find three in our past records, but we found it eventually. Um Bittersweet 4 by Jiren Johnson Development being proposed to be located in the single family zoning district. What is being proposed is 20 single family detach lots that each of them are about a half of an acre accessed off of Hilo Avenue. I'm going to flip back really quick from the actual site plan here just to get a little bit further out to kind of show folks that Hilo Avenue is coming up already from Henna. We've kind of got this long, yeah, deadend road, but this is pretty typical in kind of those areas on the fringe of development where development is hitting that urban rural interface. Um, this is one of those areas. What this actually is really is is between the the property that it's coming off of or the the Hilo Avenue that it's coming off of and this property really is the now gateway to some pretty large undeveloped agricultural parcels in the northeast corner of the city. These are the last remaining parcels then that would connect up to 235th Street North. So, um, we're looking at, um, urban development in a traditionally rural area and those are always a little tricky. And what also is a little tricky is we don't necessarily, we don't necessarily think about this kind of development in that kind of northeast area. We've always been kind of focused on that southern area of the city. So, looking at this, it is a just under 16 acres. There is some wetland, woodland, and steep slopes that would probably bring down some of that developable acreage. The land use plan does call for single family. So, it's consistent with the single family zoning district, but that minimum density is 1 required minimum density is 1.5 units per acre. Right now, they're at like 1.43. Once we take out some woodlands, some seed slopes, some wetlands, um potential areas for trails, those are if those uh land areas could get closer those uh developable acreage, minimum develop minimum dwelling units per acre. Thank you, Susan, for just nodding and knowing. Um 1.5 million. We could get there, but it's still pretty early. It's not an area that's uh in need of any parkland dedication. It is right next to Cooling Camp Park. Um I did already mention that kind of street length and the connections into the property just to the north. We they are showing an off streetet trail on the south side of the road that would connect to Cooling Camp Park from the north. What staff is proposing and is not outlined in your staff report is that we would change that from a trail to a sidewalk on the north side of the road. And that north sidewalk would come up each of the proposed street A and B for that pedestrian connectivity eventually to lead us all the way up to 235th. Again, we're looking at we're starting to lead into a more urbanized neighborhood further up there. Even though they're a little bit larger lot, that sidewalk that we'd like to see on the north side, we would carry all the way to the culde-sac. That isn't as common, but the reason is is we'd like still a trail connection to Cooling Camp, but we'd like it between lots 12 and 13 for connectivity not only to those properties to the north because we are going to want trail connectivity from 235th coming down into Cooling Camp, but also because the grades in this area um are really steep where they level out quite a bit in the north west corner of Cooling Camp. So, for reference, the proposal right now would be the trail would come in through this kind of woodland area, very steep woody area. We'd rather see it coming up through here. So, it's tying into this larger parcel and coming down on on less steep slopes into Cooling Camp. That was not outlined in the staff report, but that was disclosed to the developer before tonight's meeting. Um, there would be the consideration of a variance needed for that culde-sac length. Now, as a reminder, we're kind of adding a culde-sac on the end of an already long deadend road. Um, but this is an area that And these sorts of variances are more acceptable because we know that it's leading to greater connectivity in the future. This is the this isn't the end of the road even though it's the end of the road right now. There are other aspects of the development that we'll still have to work through during the plotting process, storm water, landscaping, tree preservation, but tonight the uh up for your discussion is just some preliminary nonbinding feedback on what you think of the bittersweet concept plan. Is it going to be water and sewer? Um, there is not water in this neighborhood. No, didn't think so. Yes, we would like it though. Oh, did they come out? Um there is I do believe sewer up there. Um I do also think that uh as we start to talk about um future land uses associated with the 2050 plan and our urban service areas, I do believe that in the next few years there will be conversation about water in these areas someday. What that looks like, I don't know. The problem is punching a lot of all those wells in that area and and those homeowners understanding the concept of wellhead have protection etc etc. When you're talking sidewalk, how wide a sidewalk are you talking? Because one of the things that a lot of folks have tried to push is a trail system across that northern side. Um and there have been several designs that have been submitted to the city. Um, and to me, if you've got a three-foot sidewalk that um, now that I have to walk sidewalks in another subdivision on a regular basis, you can't put two people side by side and a dog. Um, and and actually on on a standard sidewalk. I think our minimum I think our city standard for a sidewalk is 5T. I'd have to check our engineering standards. What they're showing is a a 10-ft trail. This is not an area we'd want to be putting in a trail because it does not lead. So, I'm gonna bounce back out. There is no pedestrian connectivity anywhere in this area. So, as there have been conversations about the potential of pedestrian improvements along Northshore, still hasn't been determined if that's going to be possible. The whole goal and a lot of the conversations have been at a minimum trying to see if we can get those pedestrian connect connections and off streetet pedestrian connections along 235th to come in down to get into cooling camp and then eventually potentially lead to the south and the east linking back up along the north side of the lake later down the road. Does the owner of Bittersweet have control over the properties to the north? No. Because to me, saying someday 20 or 30 years from now, there might be a subdivision up there, I I've Hilo is is a small road. It is a long road and then you're adding on another long road. It's the only way in. It's the only way out. and and I'm getting to the length that I'm concerned about public safety with uh Hilo being a long way and being a dead end with no way of getting there to the north and then we've got another culde-sac that's going to be a long culde-sac that maybe in 20 or 30 I mean it's not if they don't even have any any control or agreements on that property to the north. We can't say with any certainty that that will develop. No. Um, so I if we're commenting on concept that's getting to the length where I'm starting to get really uncomfortable for a from a a safety perspective. Other comments? I will comment as long as we have this one up here. Um, all of the housing call it southwest of there that's all sewer. But if you see where Imperial Avenue is there, that's all on septic. So that's where the dividing line is. And then all the Northshore is sewer because of the lake. So that I can tell you. So So Mike, now I lost. So Abby, my question for you or for the developers, he's got two streets, street A and street B, um going to the north, and it looks like street A is probably 3 400 ft from Hilo. Um why why are we looking for two a why is the developer possibly looking for two exits out here? So on the left here you've got Hilo, correct? And then you got street A. There's two there's one house on Hilo and then you got two more lots and then you got a street then you got two lots and you got another street. Just seems like a lot of exits out of um I think the uh one of the things that I'm going to try to get to the right property here that from a kind of an urban design and urban services. When you can create a more traditional grid pattern in your development, you can provide more efficient services and generally get more lots into a land area versus when you are kind of spreading your properties out a little bit more when you have right now the lot A. So you've got two houses, a lot A, two houses, a lot B. you're going to be able to have your kind of back to back. Yeah. You you have the postwar design, if that makes sense. Um and really when it comes down to it that from a municipal perspective, it's a lot more efficient when you're running your utilities, when you're plowing your streets, when you're kind of maintaining that infrastructure over time in those historically traditional grid pattern systems. Thank you. I had not thought of that angle. Other comments on this development? We will not see it again until it's a preliminary plant. So, if you have any concerns or any comments for the developer at all, now's the time because they're really unhappy if we tell them later that we really wanted this. Susan, so Abby, are you saying you're not you're not going for any park dedication? Pardon? be you're not going for any park dedication because if if this area is going to be also using cooling camp that's putting a big burden on cooling camp that is already that's that's pretty much volunteer maintained um for a for a lot of of the things that go on at cooling camp park. Um, and so are are you I'm not I'm not saying that the city wouldn't be seeking any park um dedication. It's just that we not be seeking land. Okay. Dedication. All right. So, a reminder or for new commissioners, our laws do require every new subdivision residential, every new subdivision provide land as dedication for parks. But we don't necessarily in here want to see a one and a half acre park. Um especially when it borders cooling camp. So we do have it written into law that we can accept fee in lie of land. Um and that may be the option that is pursued here. This will need to go to our new parks and recreation commission. We have a number of concept plans that we'll have to get in front of them soon. And so we will get their opinion. But staff's recommendation is we do not accept land. We do try to seek fee in l fee in lie of land dedication. And those fees just go into the general park for development, but they don't go towards the development of cooling camp. They go into the park fund and they are earmarked as dedication dollars. dedication dollars can only be used to improve and enhance upon systems. It can't go to maintain systems. So, we can't use the land dedication dollars for this to regrade and bring in a bunch of new sand for the ball fields out there. Sorry if you got a ball field kid in the room, you know, parent in the room. Um, but we could use them to do things like replace and upgrade the um the playground equipment out there or to add in additional amenities into the park that aren't currently there. They are not earmarked though for cooling camp. They go to the 10year capital plan which tries to disperse the funding through the community. Um, but it has been a very low fund and it has not been seated in for many years by general fund dollars. So, there are a lot of parkland needs in the community. Well, and that those ball fields always need some because this is the old water. I've heard I've heard those baseball fields just are always in need. And the city charges every kid that plays on a team. The city does not charge every kid that plays on a team. We The city has agreements with users um that goes to help offset the expenses in our parkland system, but generally those go for maintenance costs, not capital costs. Thank you for clarifying. generally charge the um parent organization which really in a lot of circumstances right now is the area the athletic association. Now if the athletic association charges every child I can't say that for sure. Other comments on the development I got a question. Are they going to get rid of any of the trees? I do imagine that there will be some tree removal. You can just see where it's lined out with things like the roadway um coming in. There will need to probably or there would probably be some proposed for grading and home uh removal along the eastern and southern portions of the site. Our code does allow for tree removal for land development up to certain thresholds. um if they propose to exceed the thresholds, then we do also have tree mitigation fees that need that can be paid. That then goes very similarly again into a line in our park capital fund that then goes to help reforest areas of the community. But to quickly answer your question, yes, there will be some tree loss. We don't know the extent at this time, but they're going to have to do an inventory, correct? Yep. So, what I'm hearing overall is um generally speaking, another 20 lot single family residential subdivision in Forest Lake is welcomed. But in this area where this Hilo is the only in and out, there is some concern for that public safety. And it may be that this property is not right for development if the properties to the north aren't also developing or there's a controlling interest. I don't um have I can I will share that with the developer. It would like as I mentioned, we mentioned in the staff report, it would require a variance from the city to be able to allow for this and I'm hearing at least that there might not be favorability from all commissioners uh for granting a variance. So, when we reviewed the one last week with the long culace, one of the reasons I was in favor of it is there's water there for the fire department about here. You have to truck everything in, right? And that that gets a little dicey back here. Yep, it does. So, that that is a concern that I would have is just getting trucks in and out, fire trucks. So, I would um like to make sure we have comment from the fire chief on that with this length and how, you know, because there was a fire not far from me long ago and we had about five departments over there and trying and it was on Northshore. So just trying to get the trucks in and out of there was something else. And and that area, I mean, it's it's farmland and it's it's brush fire prone. I mean, it just is. And getting to that with only one way in and the same way out, I realize it's a chicken and the egg thing that someday it will develop. But I would feel much more comfortable if even if they had where that road where one of those roads are, if they were to have at least a gravel access easement out to 135th. That's a great option. We can definitely share that with them. Something so that you could escape. Any further comments? How close is water to this? Uh, any water? They come back to town. Yeah, it's ironic. You know, we got a 2700 acre lake and we can't pump out of there. Wow. You know, so they come all the way. I don't know where they actually Oh, look. Um, so the hydro is probably off by the apartment building. I would think by the city water distribution right over by Malard would probably be where they'd have to go. We have hydrants out to apartment building. That's it. The apartment building, right? Yeah, we have sewer because we've piped under the lake. Um but water wasn't piped that way either. So, it would be a pretty significant infrastructure project um to be able to put water in. I know that the council had discussed that as part of the Northshore Trail project that those costs just exponentially increase um when we're installing a whole new utility essentially. It is correct that the apartment building um and where it leads up with that's 23 6 street circle north is where the water ends just about to greenway no one knows where 236 just about to greenway just the road north of Faith Lutheran and what you've got empty squad homes that have sunk $20,000 into a well, they're not going to support getting water lines in there and paying for water lines. I would tomorrow because the water back there on Northshore is full of tannin and the amount of salt I use and softeners is amazing. Mine doesn't have any tanning, but that that limestone is full of sulfur and the and iron. I don't I don't care what I put in that water softener of mine. I've got a yellow bathtub and it's not the way it was put in. All right. I assume we've had all comment on this project. I have enough comment to at least share with the developer. Very good. Thank you. And I'll share those comments also with the council. They'll review this as well. Uh we will start with the updates and we'll start with the um city calendar. In case you didn't make it all the way to your report, I assume that we're covering page 143. Next month, our meeting times change to 6 o'clock to 6 p.m. Thank you. We have some that start at 5:30, some that start at 6, and I just couldn't remember which we decided, but we're just hopping back an hour. It's not daylight savings. Just put it in really big bowls because some of us are a little slow. We will. And Don is pretty good at when she sends out her emails trying to um trying to put some of those things in there. But starting next month at your next meeting, July 9th, which we will have a meeting, will be at six o'clock. I do anticipate um that we will have our July 9th meeting. It could be possible. Our second meeting in July is canceled though. Uh our second our first meeting in July, we will be um there's at least one application if I remember correctly, but we'll be having some discussion uh bringing back that landscape ordinance for you folks that Ken and Claire had been working on for some time. Um also want to have a discussion about our application procedures. As you just heard tonight, there are just some hiccups sometimes in interpretations of them. Um, also just some of our processes and procedures. Um, there's a lot of redundancy and so how can we make sure that we're doing quality review that's kind of consistent with industry trends and processes and procedures that aren't overly burdensome. And then um trying to schedule in an hour for league training your role as a your role in land use decisions. Um, I'm just working out with them if I have to pay individually for each of you when I air it in this room or if we can only pay for it once. So, I just plan to maybe sit and learn, sit and chat some more at our next meeting. We're starting earlier, but I hope to not keep you an hour later. So along those lines, currently we have a requirement we have to finish meetings by 11 p.m. We've only ran up to against it once and I didn't even know that until it was brought to my attention. They go, you know, okay. Um, so now does that back up to 10 p.m.? It has not been changed, but I can address that with uh Jolene and Mark and see if that's a code requirement or resolution or what, but I don't know, but I was just prompted that. We're gonna have to take some off to you. I can't remember the meeting, but it went on forever. Um, just a few other quick updates. Um, the city did do its uh or is in the process of reviewing position um applications for it position was changed from a planning manager to an assistant community development director. We did end up with 11 or 12 applicants. So, that was really great. A lot of things came in at kind of a later time period. We um if you've got a planning background, we know that we're notoriously at the 10th hour sometimes, but um we are moving a number of those forward for virtual interviews this week, next week, and then hopefully start to bring some folks in for inperson interviews. I still think though that we probably will be well into maybe August before you'll see another new face. Um, so you got me for a while. Any of them have any planning experience? Yes, I did. I was able we were able to secure applicants that not only have some with just a few years experience, but some that have quite a number almost a decade of experience. And so really excited to talk with all of the kind of those that are advancing on just about their interests and background and really hoping we can find a good good fit for um this person's really going to be working hand inand on a lot of that development review that is anticipated and really help all of you and our team internally um keep our plates up in the air because I can't keep spinning them all. So, but I'm doing fine if you're wondering. Um, and then also I wanted to let you know I'm in discussions with Washington County CDA, the community development agency. They are are our housing partner. Um, Washington County CDA has finalized a new repair repair and renovate loan program that will be eligible for Washington County residents that make up to 115% of the area median income. What makes this really unique is that many some of you were here last fall when we talked about our local affordable housing dollars and how we would use those, but how most housing programs really are capped for people who make 85% or less of the area median income. So, they've created this kind of a a gap program to help offset those that make just slightly higher income. But as we talked about last fall, even 115% of our area median income is still a relatively modest income. So, we'll be continuing to work through an agreement with them. Um, bringing that back before you, the EDA, and then ultimately the council will make a decision to finalize the use of our local affordable housing aid dollars um hopefully in partnership with the CDA through at least if not more um other programs. the this new loan program that they have. So, I'll keep you guys posted on that. And is that going to be only for single family homes or will it also be applicable to some of our older apartment buildings? So, um the 115% program is for the single family home ownership, but the county does have programs that are geared for more of the lower income rental. Um, and so, uh, I am going to meet with them to just really talk about how we take our big bag of money and make the most use out of it. I think, um, many of us can drive through the community and see that we do have aging rental housing. Um, so I do think that there is uh some need to put money into inject money into the community for uh improving our aging rental housing. But the biggest thing that we don't want to do is take our big bag of money and put it all in one project, right? We want to try to spread that out as much as possible. So I think I should have something back for your recommendation to the council in I'm hoping in August. Um because again I'm still hoping we're going to cancel our second meeting in July. Uh hopefully. Um but I'll keep you posted on that. Do you have any anyone have any questions for me on anything that's been coming through the pipeline or anything question? I have one for you, Abby. Um do you know you know the EDA's got a storefront kind of renovation type thing. is you know OSI's getting a new roof but it's also got some front on as well as rollth. Yep. Both of them and those were part of that. They were not. So um they so the city has the EDA has always had this program that would give 10% to a commercial storefront project predominantly downtown but they've the EDA expanded it once and we never saw any applications. So last year I went to the EDA and I said, "Hey, I think we should just open this program up to everybody non residential citywide. You know, there's does it really matter if somebody's plugging money into downtown or the or the Dollar Tree here? It's improving our tax values. It's improving our image." And the EDA agreed, but the EDA also said 10% isn't a lot. And I said, "I agree." So they changed their dollar thresholds. People that inquired in the last like three to six months, I said, "Hey, listen. Right now, if you apply, you're going to be given granted 10%. But if you wait a little bit longer, depending on how much they invest, they can get 25 to 50% up to $10,000, which is it's good money. Um, both of those projects started before we adopted the new program guidelines, but I am bringing that to the EDA at their next meeting to see if they want to accept those two applications knowing the original intent for the program was for downtown businesses. These two, I mean, it was just within a matter of like a week of their approval, they had started their projects. And so to grant these two in, I will say since they adopted the program, I have received those two inquiries and two other complete applications, we've almost hit our ED is $50,000 this year. So, um, it's a really good program that I think if you know folks that are even doing small jobs, they're painting, if they're changing, you know, a sophet or front windows, um, any sort of landscaping improvements, those are all things that we'll consider um, eligible for the program. So essentially the idea is um we want to honor and acknowledge and support people who are investing in their properties in the city. Thank you. In their non-residential properties in their commercial industrial properties should say caveat that Abby a year and a half maybe two years ago we had a project south of 202 somewhere sort of area. Oh, yes. Ingresol Ponds. The No, not not the not the the Ingresol Ponds one where they've got some really I don't know what the heck they built. It was a family that was they they were it was fairly controversial. Paul, you remember they the neighbors were like, "What are you putting in here? Is it a cult?" They were they were putting five homes on that egg land where 202 makes the Um I think it was right when I started. I think it was a Nathan project and I think it was a family, right? It was a a number of siblings. Yeah. And it was somehow some Wonka doodle minor subdivision if I remember right because we probably should have platted it but we allowed it in differently. Well, and we did require T's farm. Pardon? Tit's farm. That sounds about right. That's the one without the road, right? We're driveway. They had to have they're coming off of a dirt road, but they had to within the property have deeded access to all in case somebody sold. I thought that they had to do something within a certain number of years and there's nothing they've done. No, not um they never even came back with deeds and plats. Okay. So, and our there's a trailer out there, but I I that's a conversation for another day. Um I just didn't know if they were moving forward with that. Our code does require that you need to submit your deeds or your plots within a certain time frame for your approvals to be eligible. I'm pretty sure that one has exceeded its time frames. I I know it was just being approved when I started, so it's maybe three years old now. I'm sure it's gone past the statute of limitations. I remember that there was some sort of time limit and I just wasn't sure what. We we have our esteemed uh council leaison Larson here. Uh any tidbits or information you'd like to share with us this evening? Tidbits, sir. Commissioners, chairman, um just on Monday's council meeting, we saw the folks that you saw on the two concept plans and went over some of the same things that you folks made recommendations to and are in agreement with those. So, we passed on a couple of further things to the gentleman builder off of Clear Lake and also those condos there. So, I think they got some pretty good ideas and uh things will hopefully be moving along. But, um as you guys had mentioned, um the condo thing I think is will be a big deal. Um I think it'll be welcome to the community. They're kind of expensive, but I think it'll work out real well. Um, the other thing I have is myself and chairman Gerard are going to be interviewing a person tomorrow morning at 9ine for the position of planning commission. Also, we're interviewing another person on Friday morning at 10 for the planning commission. How many vacancies do we have? One, two people put in at the same time. So, we're gonna we're gonna interview them both and if we can't uh if one other person doesn't make it, maybe we can invite them maybe to another position within another board. I will say um one of the candidates did write in their application that they happened to be watching the um meeting and saw Martin swearing in and thought that it was a good time to serve the community. And so um just kind of those small little things that we're doing that people are watching that I think is encouraging. So, does does the council want to tell us anything about the plans for the fourth celebration here? We didn't really elaborate too much on that stuff. Most of the stuff is all through the Legion um the parade and stuff like that. Um one thing that did come to mind is tomorrow they are having a school board meeting. I guess it's quite a contentious uh deal. So, I know the mayor plans on attending as well as possibly the city administrator and or the assistant city administrator. So, uh that's something maybe you might want to take a look at as well. And tomorrow morning is the chamber. Yes. City leaders taking place over at the community the school district building. Questions for Jeff. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. All right, final comments. Tim, none tonight, sir. Susan D? No. Jesse? Nope. Martin? No, sir. Chair has no comment. So, with that, chair is looking for a motion to adjurnn. Motion to the chair. I have a motion. Do I have a second? I'll second it. I have a motion and a second. It's a non-debatable motion. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. Abstensions. Motion carries unanimously. Thank you all for your contributions this evening. [Music]