We'll call the meeting to order. Michael, are you taking a role? >> Yes, I am. Commissioner Aowski. Uh, >> Commissioner Goodwin >> here. >> Commissioner Steeler here. Commissioner Wagner >> here. Uh, Commissioner Young >> here. >> Vice Chair Stender. >> Chair Gerard here. Thank you. All right. We will ask if you're able, please stand and join us for the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Chair is looking for a motion to approve the agenda as presented or with changes. >> Mr. Chair, I would make the motion to approve the agenda as presented. >> I have a motion to approve. Do I have a second? I'll second it. >> I have a motion and a second. It's a non-debatable motion. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. I. >> Opposed, abstensions. Motion carries. >> We're at the open forum part of the meeting. If anyone wishes to address the planning commission, we ask you come up to the podium, state your name and address for the record. It's been a couple minutes giving your thoughts. Once we have heard from everyone, we will close the open forum and move on to our next item. So does anyone wish to address the at the open forum today? Seeing no one come forth. Actually there's no one in the room besides us. Um we'll close the open form and we'll move on to item six, the consent agenda considerations. There's one item to approve the minutes from the regular meeting of February 25, 2026. The chair is looking for a motion. >> Mr. Chair, I move to approve the consent agenda as is. >> I have a motion. Do I have a second? >> I'll second it. >> I got a motion and a second. Any discussion? I have I have one correction I would like to see in the minutes. The um Tim Stender is the vice chair and that's Susan Young. And all of our minutes always come out with Susan still being the vice chair. So if we could get that changed for the next set of minutes, that would be great. Other than that, I don't know why it took me this long to see it. Only he's been the vice >> I've always been confused, you know. >> Yeah. He's been the vice chair for a year, right? So yeah. So you know, >> I escaped. >> So based on any other comments hearing none, all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed. abstensions. Motion carries unanimous. We'll move on on to our regular agenda item. This would be a public hearing for Hidden Creek South. We tabled it on our uh 225 planning commission. This is for two items and a preliminary platinary plan. In your packet, uh it sounds like the developer is looking for another table. >> Yeah. >> So, who's handling this? >> Absolutely. So uh I think you uh just mentioned our last meeting uh we held the public here at Hidden Creek South Preliminary PUD and Preliminary Plat. The developer has requested uh the commission table the item at tonight's meeting while they work through a few remaining issues. Uh since then the applicant has asked uh the commission specifically not to consider the application this evening. So they continue working through all those things. Uh they have requested additionally have requested a 60-day extension uh for their application. So that will now expire June 20th, 2026. So uh we would like to support a motion to table the uh consideration of Hidden Creek South preliminary plat preliminary PUD >> to a TBD date >> to TBD date, sir. >> And that fits with all of our legal requirements and extensions and all of that. Keeps everyone happy in the city? >> Yep, >> it does. And the TBD date is pretty specific because when we uh table to a specific date, we have to come back such as tonight. We tabled specifically to tonight. And that is um why we just want um open motion to table. >> We tabled for two weeks per the developer. Just as a reminder. >> Yeah, we do. >> All right, >> Mr. Chair, I would move to table the public hearing for Hidden Creek South and consideration of the preliminary plan and the PUD preliminary plan until a date to be determined in the future. >> I have a motion and I do I have a second. >> Second. >> I have a motion and a second. It's a non-debatable motion. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> I. >> Opposed? Abstensions. Motion carries unanimous. Brings us to item eight, which is a discussion, which is always a little bit more freewheeling. I really think that the staff probably push the developer out here so that they got the whole time for the comprehensive plan. >> Thank you for that introduction, Chair Gerard. I really appreciate that vote of confidence from you. Um, no, uh, we do. We've got time tonight and we knew we needed to take some time to um talk with the planning commission about the upcoming comprehensive plan amendment or uh update process that the city is going to be engaged in. So included in your packet was a little brief on the 10-year metropolitan uh council's planning cycle. Um that essentially is the kickoff for then the region's planning processes. These as a reminder I've shared with everybody in your onboarding um we plan for uh 30 years but we update every 10 years. So by December 31st of 2028 we will need to have our 2050 comprehensive plan completed um and not just completed but approved by the Met Council. So, we have some time to do that and as staff is working through the kind of scoping of uh the project itself. So, two-year project, a little over two-year project of updating that comprehensive plan, helping or going out to try to find consulting help for us to update that plan, which is really common with these documents. Um, some of the things that we wanted to chat with the planning commission were um having to do with the 2040 plan. So, our existing comprehensive plan um for those that were here, the you know, opportunities, constraints, lessons learned through that process. Included in your packet was a memo from the city's engineering firm who we do use for consultant planning services and who did update our existing comp plan. Um a memo that they provided on just a process recap. We also want to just uh high level talk through some of those 2040 plan goals and objectives. Um the idea uh being what still exists in the plan that you see that we didn't accomplish or what are some of the areas where the planning commission might not think are as relevant. Again, these are very big public processes that we're going to be going through, but I think it's here hitting the high notes or the low notes um to help us as we're scoping out this project. and then also just opportunities the commission would like to see for early public engagement. This is a very public process. We engage with the community in a variety of different ways uh throughout the entirety of the plan update. So early engagement, midstream, different opportunities for interaction with the community and then also when we're considering the final plan document. I don't have a ton presy that the hope is all of you took a look at your packets >> and read the materials in your packet and we can probably just start with that first subject topic subject of the 2040 plan update. I know that most of the commission members weren't here, but there was a summary memo included in your packet, and I'm kind of curious um thoughts on how that the existing comp plan development process, what the commission um thought or what they read in the packet that they want to at least talk about. >> Commissioners. >> Oh, yeah. All right, Susan. >> Um, community engagement is is a beast in this community. It absolutely is. Um, and it's really difficult to one get citizens thinking about the community um of the future when they're they're sweating out things that they hate about the community today or things that they love about the community today. Um, community engagement is expensive. Um, I'm thinking that one of the things that um we did not do um is is is try and and focus on some of the groups in the city that would be in that would I don't want to say susceptible but might have an interest. for instance. Yes, we all were at Arts in the Park and handing stuff out and there was a lot of it. We saw it in the parking lot on the ground. Um we have more homeowner associations in the city now that we than we had before. Um putting into the planning process going to those homeowner associations at their annual meetings at least or asking them for uh an additional special meeting. so that we could talk about the comprehensive plan. Some of the e even to engage them in some of the things like parks, like trails, like transportation. Um and and and and go out and actively try and grab them to start thinking and talking about that. um figuring out is there a way that we can start to um cool kids do YouTube or or whatever whatever they do. I don't know. I don't do that stuff. >> Online social opportunities for public engagement, >> right? Um, what if we were to start doing some sort of tutorial or um talk to some of the kids at the high school about um doing a a video? We've got huge, smart, talented, innovative kids over there. um doing something to start doing, you know, what is a comprehensive plan and um and and start to getting that on the city's page and starting to promote that. Um but we we need to think differently and do a much better job of community engagement um the next time. So I I when I was a boss, I said, 'You don't get to come to me with a problem until you got two solutions. I gave you two I gave you two ideas. Um but I'm I'm willing to work hard on that piece. I really am. Um >> yeah, I will say um you know even before I read uh our consultants feedback memo um just how I think there were opportunities for community engagement but maybe those opportunities were lost or maybe not utilized to their fullest. Um it's a it's a common thing I think through these plan large planning processes we'll never reach everyone in the community but how do you design and tailor engagement opportunities that you are trying to get out and meet people where they are but also doing it in a different way. It's easy to show up at Arts in the Park, right? That one's kind of an easy check off for us. um part of this process, the uh EDA has also expressed an interest in being involved in kind of the community visioning, public engagement aspect of this and so how we not only reach our residents but also our business owners and those that are visiting our community because they are also factoring into the future of our our current and future of the community. So, I think those are really great um suggestions, Susan, of you know, there are a lot of HOAs. Uh we might not be able to get to every HOA meeting, but those online opportunities and engagement with resources we have such as the school, I think are good good suggestions. We've got a couple of big ones and maybe maybe if we just made an effort to hit those or if we had planning commission members who um are in or near those communities if you know or if we could get some sort of like a PowerPoint presentation. We could email out or show up like Susan was saying if one of us would show up and present the PowerPoint to kind of just hit on the high points. I think one of the on demand if we can video even a presentation at this and take that and pull it out put it on YouTube so people can watch it on their own time frame because most people they don't have time to unplug from their life and go sit at a meeting for two hours that they don't really care about in the first place. But if we can give them the opportunity after the kids are in bed, they can pull it up on their phone. That would be a way to at least present the information and then you could break it up into the parts of well the Met Council is going to say this and we have no choice and explain that upfront and otherwise we are the bad guys. Um, but I think there's a way to kind of break that up into small packets that will get to more at least make available to more people and then end each one where if you want feedback, here's a way for you to do that. Whether it be online or in person, that would be kind of a way to really nail that type of thing. >> That's um just that interesting the idea of educational video and then feedback loop. Um, I know that with our current uh our parks and recreation commissioner is updating the parks and trails plan right now, parks, trails open place plan right now. Um, they did use a community survey tool that we have through our website, but definitely we're kind of putting it out in different social ways and I think got more response than I've maybe seen in some of the other opportunities for engagement. Um, but that idea of here's a small video or here's a one component, here's a quick feed link to we want your feedback on it is a is a nice opportunity for us to explore. >> I think we've got several community organizations. I know that the um the Rotary would would welcome a couple of presentations. I'm sure that Lions there lots of folks there that would, you know, are really community oriented. Um, you've got Masons, you've got um, you know, you've got a variety of organizations. Um, even a really brief presentation to the school district. Those those meetings are heavily watched. Um, you know, just any way that we can get out even a a 10-minute is what we're thinking about doing. Please be aware. Um I I I really want to do a better job this time around. >> Yeah, I think we do too. I mean, I think it's the how do we engage, right? And at what opportunities it is the the most costly component of a of a plan of this nature. And so this is all really great feedback as we start to think about how we scope this out, how we secure consulting services and how you know we do this within a reasonable budget over the next few years is going to be that tricky part I think. But any other ideas out there on community engagement? >> You know I don't I I don't have any ideas for engagement. I think one of the difficulties with the comprehensive plan, it's fairly abstract and it's out 25 years from now or 22 years from now. We we have trouble getting the community involved when something's coming to the planning commission in two weeks that is going to affect them tomorrow. Um so just you tell them this is going to happen in 2050 or a vision for 2050. They're like, "Well, I'll probably be pushing daisies, but you know, it's it's just I think it's really hard with such an abstract concept to get a lot of buy in." >> And I I think it's really challenging, especially with that abstract con concept to keep it from not grinding the axes of the problems today wrapped around the axle with my trash didn't get picked up last week. What the heck? And then that becomes a 30 minute tangent. How do you focus it? But one I wanted to go back to kind of a an a mixture of what Commissioner Young and Commissioner Appalowski said is um imagine a jar public engagement is a jar and you fill it with giant rocks. It jar looks full those giant rocks being these big organizations. So that let's focus on what the big organizations are now and then we can whittle it down to the the minute outreach the sand that'll fill in the gaps like a a YouTube video may be to to look at that. And so one thing I wanted to mention with the Rotary is you mentioned the high school um potentially there's an Interact program there. >> Our our high school interact is a little slow right now, but we're working on a couple of the other schools. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think that that becomes like a a good place to one maybe get some uh uh soldiers to kind of like help kind of like facilitate some of these things for some of those community service hours that we could sign off on. But it's also getting that kind of input from that generation for because I think YouTube's cool, but they're all talking about things that I don't even know exist anymore. Like I I don't do the Tik Tok. At least I know what that is. But um it's but it's like being able to understand hey what what are the what are the languages being used now to be able to do this broad outreach and help influence feedback. Um so Rotary Lions, Masons, the school district that what are there any other civic organizations that will allow us to reach out to a large group um with a a regularly planned meeting? Not like a special meeting coming in, but be able to go there. And I think you mentioned HOA annual meetings, but that's really would be a great opportunity to put the big rocks. >> We just met with one of them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I I have put them down >> and they've got what uh 50% of the lake 450 members I think they have >> and their meeting will come in I'm looking over at Jeff is that April where they do their annual usually >> the lake association. >> Yeah. At the high school where they talk about the AI >> the president was upstairs in the meeting up there tonight. I should probably >> we can work with them >> but they got an annual meeting and >> well attended 300 plus people. Yeah, >> Clear Lake has a similar but we don't have as many people but it's it's well attended >> actually. You have a higher participation. >> Yeah, we've got over 80% I want to say it's 90% participation now but something like that. >> Yeah, we're very envious >> and and when I was on the council I I used to use Clear Lake as an example of a lake that should have city support as opposed to a lake that has very little lake association support. you guys that clearly do a great job. >> I can't take any credit for that. >> One one suggestion I just want to mention um uh council member Larson just mentioned just like the chambers business expo in the spring next year, the following year. Opportunities for engagement as well. Those are those kind of out of the box ideas that we do want to figure out how we engage with the public >> because you'll have both of them, right? You'll have the expo up in uh Marinatha and then you got the senior expo that comes >> that's coming up too over at the Y. >> It's towards seniors, but they vote too. >> And and they're passionate about the community. >> Absolutely passionate about the community. right? >> The the Y forever well group. There's a there's a ton of folks in that. And you've got the senior center and they've not only do do the folks at the senior center, they live here, but a lot of their kids live here. Forest Lake is one of those communities where a relatively high percentage of folks that grew up here come back here. >> Great. These are all awesome kind of ideas, I think, for those opportunities that uh for public engagement that we can start exploring. You know, I can't promise we're going to hit every civic group. I can't, you know, I don't know what that plan looks like right now, but these are, I think, all really good factors for us to consider as we develop those public engagement strategies. Um, did folks take a look at the memo produced by Bolton Mink in 2025? Was there anything standing out in that document in relationship to the last comp plan update? And any lessons learned for the few people that were a part of this process the last go round? One of the things that came up in that fairly frequently was the massive last minute changes on the southern boundary of the city and all the MXR stuff that was put in at the last minute. Um, unfortunately the potential for that is coming up again because what happened was a change in the council. you that a change in the council majority. Um and that new council and that new mayor um did a 180 on significant pieces of the comp plan that the previous mayor and council had had put together. Um >> so even though we it is an election year and we do have our council our mayor and two counselors um up those two those if they change those people would be seated throughout the remain the remainder of the portion through 27 and 28. >> Right. But what happened last time was that they needed to um because of the timeline, the new mayor and council were seated before the final document was given to the Met Council and the final document was voted on and they made significant changes which made us which made the city and the consultants do a lot of rework. Um it would be really nice if we could keep to the timeline so that um that as that that the the mayor and council were very involved and and had the good support so that it could be completed. But that and I saw it over and over again and I I remember it and it was very painful to me but because we'd done a lot of work that was 180. >> Yeah, that is something that I've heard from the minute I came in of the changes that occurred with the comp plan. I you know this is the document I walked into and the hope that the document that we create in the future is one that everybody in this room whether it's you any other appointed body or the council and the community all support the day it's adopted and into the future. So >> Andy, >> um I think just one thing that I think will really help the crafting of this is to find out what the guard rails and the hard mandates from the Met Council are. Um cuz I know you know where I stand on this. And I think if if we have a realistic expectation and if it is something that is going to be so painful, it's a very good way for us to rile up our voters and our land land owners if what they're going to make us do is going to hurt our city. >> Sure. So included in your packet was the system statement. I think I attached that. >> When did we get that? Please, I don't mean to interrupt, but when did we get that? >> The system statement. We got the system statement in uh >> I want to say it was October, November. >> Yeah, October. Um so the system statement um the city council has appealed the system statement. Um we have a hearing scheduled with I thought I had let the commission know this and I apologize that I hadn't. Um the city council has appealed uh the system statement on three factors. The first is our land use designation. So, our land use designation has changed um because they eliminated our land use or our community classification, excuse me. Our community classifications minimum density requirement citywide is 3.5 uh units per acre. So, it will go up in this next round from the 3 to six to 3.5 to seven if or eight. I don't remember exactly what that top threshold is. if it was six. Um, but that's a citywide density on all the future development areas and I think that that's going to be a big part of the ongoing conversation that our community is going to have is how to achieve those requirements. But the city uh council has indicated um objection to that. They have indicated objection to the population for and household forecasts because we do believe that they are low for a variety of reasons. and then also the allocation of affordable housing. Um with those uh the Met Council staff has already rejected a an off um a counter we made on our uh projections. So we are going to move forward with an appeal or this appeal hearing to the land use advisory committee that's scheduled for next month. Um as part of that um hearing, one of the things that we've objected with that 3.5 units per acre is the how they calculate density and the exemptions that we allow uh the city to take out of the developable land area. Since the city and multiple other cities have made these objections, the Met Council has come out with new Met Council staff have come out with new 2026, so applicable right now. um density, how would you say that? Uh density exemp uh land developable land exemptions and are now letting us net out storm water ponds into our developable land area. So if you have 100 acres, you can take out wetlands and sleep slopes and wetland buffers, all those natural features that are all protected and let's say we're down to 50 acres, but we need 10 acres of that for a storm pond. they're going to let us know that storm pond. Now, um you're going to start to see in the developments that come before you, um how that uh calculates out, um and you're going to start to see that in a lot of those, um future developments that'll end up coming before you that they're easier to achieve the what is right now minimum baseline of three units per acre, but then also that future 3.5 units per acre. Yes, Susan. >> Okay. So it says under community designation that we are both diversified rural and suburban edge >> split. Correct. >> And so um why then is it citywide? >> I should I'll rephrase that. Um it is citywide in the suburban uh classification in the >> suburban edge >> in the urban service area. No, because it says that urbanized levels of residential development are disouraged in diversified rural and they do not expect that kind of in the suburban that kind of density in the suburban edge. >> I don't I don't know exactly what you're looking at, but the urban density requirement of the 3.5 units per acre, I believe, is not citywide. I believe it just I am on page >> um of the introduction >> um the two the 2025 system statement on the introduction page four. >> It has climate policy on the top of it. >> Right. And then it says that the the suburban edge communities um should be guided for um for low to medium residential densities along with some areas guided for industrial and commercial uses. And I don't consider low to medium that 3 whatever. >> Yep. But yeah, I'm really glad that the council is is talking about the um AMI cuz I I I looked at at those numbers for um for housing, the 600 dwelling units and and looked up what our medium house median household income is right now. It is $92,944. If you had a 10% down and you were making $92,944 a year, you could qualify for about a $300,000 to $370,000 house. Nothing that we have seen in front of the planning commission recently the developers are telling us are in that price range. So, we really are not developing housing at the AMI, much less at 30% of AMI, which would qualify for a $75,000 to $100,000 house. I >> I have a a question along that line. I've heard you make this before and I um I've never owned a new home and I've owned different homes over the years, but I they've always been I don't know 10 years old or more. >> And normally in where I grew up when new housing developments were developed, they were bigger, larger houses. Uh maybe the lots got a little bit smaller, but they're bigger homes and people would move up into those homes and then the the homes that those people would move out of would come on the market at the lower rate. So, I mean, you you seem to make the contention that we should be getting developers to to build brand new homes for the lowest end of the of the economic spectrum in our city. That I mean, that's that's what I >> That's not what I want. That's not what I want. What I'm saying is if we are to do what the M council says that we have to do, >> Yeah. We got to figure out how we're going to get 600 homes. Uh, not all of them at the 30% AMI, but quite frankly, we're not even building homes right now that folks can purchase at 150% AMI. So, so for the Met Council to say that we need to make these numbers, I mean, I I like a good fantasy story. I grew up on, you know, Andre Norton and Marian and Zimmer Bradley. Um, great fantasy stories, but I I don't see how how Forest Lake could ever do this. And and if as as you've told us before that if we don't meet the Met Council requirements on a variety of things, there are penalties involved. we would be in a no-win situation. >> That is correct. Um so the I I want to just at least acknowledge uh Commissioner Applic's first statement in um the understanding the requirements of the Met Council. The system statement is kind of that guide book and it's not just about housing and land use which there's a lot and I know that that's probably some of the most you know impactful I think to the community in a lot of ways. That's the thing we see right right now because we're a growing community and we're developing a lot of homes on littleer lots and that's maybe not that's maybe not quite the character we always envisioned for forest lake. Um but there's lots of other things in that system statement on transportation on climate on all these other different sections. And so that is kind of our our playbook of what we need to incorporate into our um document. It does go so far for some of those requirements um to give us prescriptions for how to achieve them. So Susan's bringing up the um affordable housing allocation and that is directly tied to our growth our numbers, right? So our growth projections, it's a it's a formula. It's like plug in this number, plug in their their uh the delineator, what do you would you call that? You know, their their little formula and then outfit spits how many units you need in each of those AMI categories. What the Met Council goes so far as to say is in order to achieve those you say it was 300 units, 600 units, you need to guide X amount of land area at this density, X amount of land area at this density. And so it's a it's a numbers game that we'll end up having to play as we talk through these land use opportunities and constraints in that next round of future land use planning. >> And to your point about existing homes that are that are for sale, I'm a newspaper reader. I get the Pioneer Press every Sunday and every Sunday they list the homes that have been sold or the properties that have been sold in Forest Lake and very seldom do you see anything below 270 even on older existing properties. Um, so even even we couldn't even make an argument that some of our older homes in the city would be able to be considered affordable under their >> under their guidelines >> at or below 30, 31 to 50, 51 to 60. >> I mean, I think um I don't 100% I think they can be rental. Um, one of the factors just as we are we are a growing community and as you develop it inflates your valuations. Um, I saw this in another Washington County community that coincidentally our assistant community development director now lives in because he could not afford to find a place in Forest Lake which is ironic in some ways because this other Washington County community had historically been known for much higher land valuations but they're now almost completely developed out. So, I think that is part of our cycle that we're in right now, unfortunately. >> Now, do apartment buildings count towards these? >> Yes. >> Affordable. Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, I I played that game, too. All right. And I said, "Okay, well, maybe we just do squat." So, basically, if you're at 30% AMI, you're making about call it 23 20 2,300 a month. If you were to try and say, "Okay, even half of your income could be devoted to your rent payment." We still don't have there are very few and they're the really really old apartment buildings that are below 1,900 a month even for a studio apartment. We're just not there. So, but the I will say um in terms of housing affordability uh for housing that gets um in the price points of people making 50% or less at least in the in this industry in public service in development. Those are subsidized housing. That is housing that is going to end up being subsidized in some way by the city, county or state or federal government. Um and so I think there's different strategies for how to obtain your affordable housing. What I am want to reiterate at least in our affordable housing numbers is that there is no mandate that we have to put in 600 units. The mandate is we need to guide land sufficient to create the climate for the creation of 600 units >> which is what when we saw we created that climate then when we the two common bond apartments were built down by the library by FCA. Yeah, we Yes, but we also created that climate by guiding land for that higher density development. And I don't read this that way. This is the the region's future need for low-income housing is 600 new units of affordable housing. of these new in forest lake of these the need is for 700 or 327 affordable to households earning at or below 30% 240 available to households get that and 33 51 60 it's not create the climate is the future need for low-income housing is this number of dwelling units >> yes that is correct but it's not a mandate that we have to create those it is saying that is a need in our community. That is what they're projecting our need is to be. We need to create the climate so that those could potentially be developed. But if at the end of this process we did not reach 600 units, it isn't a penalty a penalty situation. >> So then three dwelling units per acre wouldn't be a penalty situation either. Well, no, that is different because that does that is directly tied to the um their actual capacity for the services that they're trying to manage as well. >> The sewer, >> right? >> They they want us to push more sewage to them in order to make us build more lots. >> Okay. But that's not what they say in in the sewer section. Okay. Yeah, I went down there too. >> Let's stick to the density for a second. So, what's what's your feel for, you know, we're cut our lots in half when we went from 15,000 to 7500 and we're really struggling to hold 7500 and the 65 ft width as and I'm sure that I haven't seen the end of those much to my chagrin, but what's your feel that with what they're netting out now that we can get closer to that number or do we have to look at this again and say, you know what, we're going to have to cut this down to X? >> No, I don't think that we'll have to cut this down to X. It's a great question. We just got their determination of their 2026 implementation changes last week or the end of the week before. So, we haven't had a chance to compare that yet to some of our existing developments that are coming in and how they would compare to the three to the three and a half. Um, simply put, the city has too much land guided for low to medium density residential development. That's what's created in this environment. We're going to need to look at where we put in more me medium and higher density to help offset that lower density which overall then balances out not communitywide but in your emerging suburban or emergency emerging suburban or Musa areas and that balances out to the 3.5 units per acre. So if you have 100 acres of 12 and you have 100 acres of three, the two of them together then is eight. >> Quick math. Seven and a half. >> It's not it's not a math quiz today. >> Um so that's that's the that's going to be a lot of those land use based conversations we're going to have to have is do we want if we want larger lots that's not going to be a problem. It's just you have to offset them somehow else. I I I get that. But when when the developer is sitting there going, I'm going to hit this three because that's the number I have to hit and that's why I need these smaller lots. We don't give any push back. Say overall we have to hit three. We're okay you hit 2.8 or 2.7 in order to meet our lot sizes so we don't have to do do a PUD. >> Right? But that's because we guided that specific land area for a minimum of three. So we need to change that then >> in the comp plan >> or one of the things that we can do is go back to the original 20 40 comp plan that didn't have as much MXR because that's the MXR that is guided with a with the higher density. So this is what I would say is I I I don't want to have the the conversations right now because the comp plan we have right now is not getting changed right now. Right. >> Right. We have the MXR and we have that whole area gtted for MXR and we're we're hit the Musa line. So at this moment anything that we've really seen they have some entitlements with that minimum of three lots per acre. it's outside of those areas or when people want to expand the mucus line that that or and may need a comp plan amendment that's when we need to re-evaluate or at the time that we're updating the comp plan is this the appropriate density for those specific parcels. >> Yeah. I'm just trying to get a flavor for with the push back the city's currently giving. Are we getting where we and I'll speak for the whole commission, which is probably bad, but where we want to get more to what our vision was of 7,500 square foot lots. I do think we might be getting closer to get us to the to that three without having to go to these 50 foot, but I haven't done a a land use across land use. >> We're starting to get close. You know, we I'm done with the density. Then moving on. Any other comments on density? Otherwise, we're going to move on to some other topic. I I just have one comment in this discussion and I know other cities are are appealing things to the Met Council on this on the subject of density. I mean, I was you and I exchanged an email. I think I was looking at densities in downtown and trying to figure out what their density was and how how we could possibly get there with our sideyard setbacks and front and back. Anyway, um and then in all this, you know, we're we're I drew a straight line from the capitol to this building here and it's like 24 miles or something like that. Yet I can go to Hudson, Wisconsin, it's only 16 miles and the Met Council doesn't have a say in Hudson, Wisconsin. And yet we've got to compete for developers and development and to to so I don't know if that's part of the discussion when we appeal. I mean, we're kind of unique in that aspect. I mean, Delano can't say, you know, Hudson, Wisconsin is is clo Well, you know, whatever. Um, >> you Wyoming. >> Yeah. So, I'm So, my my point is there's areas closer to the city that they have absolutely no control over and yet they're they're putting these really tight restrictions on us. So, anyway, I just thought I'd mention that. Um, but anyway, you guys are >> Andy. >> Yeah, I I'll just state it again. And I think the Met Council is out of control. I think they're social engineers. And the service statement is a great example of all of the political social diversity stuff that we're seeing across the country baked into a document and forcing a city to do this or else. They were designed as a regional planning for trains, lanes, and sewers. And they've gotten out of control. And I encourage the city council to keep fighting. Um, I encourage anyone listening to this to get inol get involved in the governor's race because there is a chance if we see a seed change at the top, the Met Council can be dismantled. >> I worry about sewer systems after that because that's a public, right? Right. >> The technology in the world has changed where you don't need centrally planned people to do this. Yep. >> Computers can figure this out on their own by this point, but it's all of the it's all of the tales, all this other coloring outside the lines, cross climate change. Come on. I mean, and here what the the ramifications are. We are forced to put in these tiny lots and build these unaffordable houses and and we're the bad guys. I that's where I'm just Please keep up the fight. One thing I'd like to add real quick um especially as as Abby mentioned earlier about the uh storm water ponds not being included in in net acreage that really impacts the acceptance of those those smaller lots of smaller size lots. Uh the argument for them really kind of gets watered down after that. So there may be uh opportunities in the future to be more hold tight on those the the lot sizes that you're all comfortable with uh because not including those storm water ponds into the net will still allow some developers to hit those marks that are required especially in the MXR1 district uh to be able to hit those densities without having to sacrifice with a lot. Uh so there's still there's good news coming out of the Met. There's good news coming out of the fights that we're having with them. Uh so uh uh more to come but we're definitely seeing less hey no it's our way or the highway. So uh there's a lot of progress there. >> What what topic do you want to move to? >> Um well I think you we talked some about public engagement and we talked about that previous plan development process. So I'm wondering, you know, just high level, we started to kind of go through some of the topics and the plan goals. Seems like we hit some onto land use there. We talked about um some of the community's objectives and goals. We didn't maybe talk about um actually don't really go into density. We could talk about uh local economy, economic competitiveness, talked a little bit about housing. We're updating our parks and trails plan right now. Transportation we've talked about recently here. Um so those things are kind of carried through. More than anything, it's what's in the existing plan that sticks out to anybody that you might want to talk about. And I can pull out my packet. Do you know what page that started? They they want us to incorporate stuff about the regional transit system and their 2050 regional transit plan exes Forest Lake out of any kind of transit opportunities. Um, and transit oriented development that they talk about in you really need to do this thing online because you need to be able to get to their links. I tend to be a paper person, so I've been playing between the paper and doing diving into their links. Um, but they're they're pushing a lot of the transit oriented development, which then goes to the smaller lots, goes to folks being able to walk from their home 10 minutes to a transit corridor. For them to require us to do planning and density using that 10 minutes to a transit opportunity. I'm I I'm back to the fantasy reading. And and when you when you go into their transit plan and you follow the link, the goal is for folks to be a 10-minute walk from a transit opportunity. >> Ask the city of Ramsey how that worked out. >> Well, >> no. I'm just It's another example of these people don't know what they're doing. So, I guess I need some more clarity on what is expected of the city for our regional transit system pieces. Um and and quite frankly, I'm hoping that the city will um will start to say we need out of the transit taxing transit taxing district tax. The the pro the the promises were made, the promises were kept for a while and then the promises were broken. And so the the dollars that we are putting in, we are not getting the value of those dollars back even with the new things that they're trying. >> Not just with new, we have had continued service. It's just maybe not as as convenient or frequent as what the community has seen. But there are transit services here. And I don't want to, you know, change a narrative that we don't have those and that our money has been just going to other cities completely, right? Um but those are conversations that our council has, um been engaged in. So um I I will say specifically, um so page 23 in the packet talks about system plan considerations affecting your community. This has specifically with the transit plan. It does talk about the regional highway system, regional transit system. Um those are those transit market areas that we just need to address which does talk about those nonregular route services or dollar services. And then um aviation and bicycle planning. And so those are some of the things that they're looking to see. Even though their transportation plan does talk about things like transit oriented development, there are aspects of our system statement that acknowledges those sorts of things aren't as applicable to us as some of those other area uh areas within the metro area. on page 23 of our packet but page 12 of their under regional transit system. I would challenge us being part of transit market area three which they say transit service in this market includes suburban local routes express and commuter service. We do have non-regular route transit services like dialeride but we we do not have we do not have the characteristics of TMA3 that they state that our community has. under the bicycle planning. The um the regional Hardwood Creek is the one that they're basically talking about in terms of the regional bicycle planning. Correct. >> Correct. there will um I don't know if once the it probably wouldn't happen but once the um Swedish Immigrant Trails extension comes down eight I don't know if they'll consider that ex small extension in Forest Lake that connects to the Hardwood Creek they'll connect together whether or not they'll reclassify that I don't know if that'll be done before this plan is updated but yes it is the Hardwood Creek trail at this time. >> Um, if Washington County completes the the bicycle access along Highway along County Road 4, that would give us access to Browns Creek and the Gateway Trail. >> Uh, yes, outside of our jurisdiction. We do continue to also advocate for another county trail along County Road 50 that would lead then as well. So there's a more of a northern connecting route as well. Commissioners comments on any of these commuting whether it's bikes, planes, buses feel like >> um on their page 18, our page 29, could you talk to me a little bit about the majority of the city being in what looks like TMA3, which you know I just referred to as they call that having some bus routes and we don't the little green stippled map thingy. >> Mhm. I can't Susan I can't necessarily comment on >> okay >> your I would say disagreement with their >> their determination there. I would say that when looking at their TMA uh TN3 there are some characteristics. It's our commercial urban development area that is a little bit more suburban in nature that does have access to the as they're saying non-regular route usually dialeride service. Now does the dialer ride service include like Uber andyft and stuff like that? No, this would be the the Metro Transits services which are available in the in the city. >> Yep. >> Is it reliable? I know I've had people that are closer to the metro who say they call and it never comes. So, is the services actually being provided or are we just on the map that they provide it? >> Um, nope. They are provided. We did get a breakdown and I can't I believe it was 2024 numbers and um I could get specifics and I can send them out to you. It was out of the 300ish rides that were requested that prior year it was something like 17 were unable to be fulfilled. >> Okay. I believe the numbers are getting up. So I think that would be something that that's it's a tool for us to push back on. >> Yeah. Um I also uh their newer service the Tuesday Thursday 10 to two that I've kind of been helping at least convey to different bodies in different ways. That one is not seeing large wrership but that really comes down to the marketing isn't there. There there's been absolutely no uh public education from the Met Council from the Met Transit on that one. And that concerns me because then they're going to say, "See, we tried it and and it Forest Lake just doesn't want that." Well, it's not that that we don't want it. It's just that it's only on, you know, the it's Tuesdays and Thursdays, right? >> Uh that is good. Yeah. Tuesdays and Thursdays between 10 and two. >> Two. Yeah. >> Um and so it it is really restrictive, but um folks have got to know about it. Um, I know it would be helpful if it ever were able to expand to those town houses off of FEMA. Um, I know as as that's where several of my Thrive Ride customers are is in that area because it's one level housing, the towns and HOA that were geared toward um downsizing elders. >> And that's a Thrive is that's door to door, right? >> Yes. This other one is uh it's a loop, right? >> So, there's um there's four different public transportation options in the city of Forest Lake. One is Thrive, which is operated by Community Thread, which is a door-todoor um pay as you go, pay per ride, and that's volunteer-based. So, um the ride you get is if there is a driver that's available, that is a call in advance system. They do ask for a few days in advance to see if they can ride parry you. Um the next one uh that the city has is the Forest Lake Loop which is a Wednesday senior low-income se circulator. They're not checking IDs at the door. They're not checking incomes at the door, but that is predominantly going to um multif family housing, senior housing, and then bringing them to commercial establishments. uh has right now been limited hours in the mornings on Wednesdays, but that also is looking to expand into a larger segment of time on Wednesdays. That will also be more of a loop that you might be able to do multiple stops on Wednesdays. Then you have, and forgive me, I'm never going to remember the difference at the moment, but one is a Met Transit um program that is a door-todoor uh service. Um but th this is uh transit link. Um so these are handicap accessible. Is that transit link? Thank you Susan. Um these are handicap accessible um small bus type circumstances that you a few days in advance you give a call and they'll take you anywhere in the metro area. And then there is our internal MET transit Thursday 10 to 2 that's brand new system um that is also a doortodoor but within a limited area within the city and they're only going within the city. So it's the idea of if you you know need to get to the library or something like that. The challenge is it's concentrated in the kind of the heart of the old town or the old city. Sorry for even using the word town in this room. It's um the heart of the city. Um and so you know if you live in like Susan was just saying the singlestory homes off Fenway it might not be in that area right now. The one thing they are doing or at least said they're doing is they are using the same software that Met Transits Valeride service uses. And so if you lived outside of that area and you did want service, you can request it and you can be denied, but that logs it in their system to see that there's demand outside of the service area. They are willing to explore expanding that service area, but they also did want to see what the wrership was like initially. >> We So we don't have any like bus stops is what I'm kind of getting. >> Stop when she's um No, >> don't quit your day job. Um, >> I was going to say she's doing all right. >> Look at that. >> So, that's what I always think of of transit is, you know, you know, I was raised in Chicago. I went to the corner and >> within 10-minute walk. >> Well, oh, yeah. But, you know, you would know here's the hours of service and you know what the bus line was 43, you know, and so you were good. So, that's why I asked, you know, because it does a set loop. So, I would think that, you know, maybe you could stand on the corner at 1:00 and 2:00 and 3:00 and take a bus, but No. >> No. >> Thank you. >> Um, and I didn't print the page out, but when they look at our developable area, they take out our surface waters, but they don't take out that bog, our in our 36 square miles. and and x number of um >> cory swamp, >> right? And and and they map it pretty well in here, but we probably need to make sure that that partic I didn't print that page out. We definitely um I have noticed since coming in in just some of the uh work that we've done in since I've been here that there's much greater opportunity to redefine the developable land area in Forest Lake. um things that were never probably mapped before, you know. So, yes, our surface waters, but wetlands, wetland buffers, steep slopes, those sorts of things should be netted out and we should be reflecting that in our updated plan because I think that that does um really address some of the challenges that Forest Lake has is that if you look at the plan, is this the actual packet on page 41 in your packet? You kind of see the just pockmark of the community. Um, but if you took every one of those kind of what I would say is maybe a light yellow and the kind of maroon color. What page is it? >> 43. >> 43. My Yeah, old eyes are bad. If you took those light yellow and those maroon colors, um, city staff knows that those are just really kind of guesstimates. They're not delineated. And likely those land areas are much larger than they actually really are. All you got to do is pull up, superimpose a road map on there, and you know where all the streets end because I live on the north side and that whole area up there. I don't there's hardly a road that goes through. >> Mhm. >> Yep. >> You know, but it's there's some wetland that prevents it. >> Yeah. This one. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is all really great. Are there any other comments that anyone has from these kind of early conversations as we're moving forward? >> Do we want to talk about the where we on the 2040 comp plan goals and objectives starting on 51? Um um I guess I'm wondering the one that intrigues me as is is as as under the objectives. Um the first one promoting a variety of transportation options in developing areas, transit, bicycle, pedestrian and and and and life cycle housing. Are there ways that we can can be doing this better? Or are there things that that we as a planning commission should be should be thinking about how we how we can how we can actually promote this cuz um that that's not something that this community has been geared toward in the past and I'm not sure how how we could do this. So if if we're going to keep it as an objective, then I'd like to better understand tactics. >> Sure. I I will um I will say I wasn't prepared tonight to go line item by line and all objectives and that's fine. We certain that's okay. No. Um I frankly think um uh I would hope for our next comp plan that we better uh tie these to some sort of actual kind of measurable results. Can we check a box? Um because I would say we're doing a lot of this stuff, but it's really hard to to measure any of what we're doing exactly as you're saying. So Susan, you bring up the promoting a variety of transportation options. Um, okay. Well, we've talked about transit. You know, we try to get transit here, but when we look at things like bicycle and pedestrian, well, we're putting more trails in and we're putting sidewalks into every development, which we weren't doing before, right? So, we are, but there isn't necessarily anything saying we're going to require A, B, C, and D. and complaints don't always get so prescriptive. But I think what we can get prescriptive is is say um we're going to encourage in development concepts by updating the code to require ABC and D right so we can start to look at how are we actually achieving some of these goals because frankly I do think our existing comp plan is really ethil there's a lot of really great ideas in here but none of them really there's very very few things in here that I think we could actually say yes we could have checked this box if we did this or no we did not do this this still out is outstanding and to that point I was really tickled by the encourage innovative development concepts being the overarching bullet there because what does that mean >> I want you guys to look at innovative development concepts done I encouraged it that's what I think she's saying is we have to have specifics and measurable things in those objectives and That's what the comp plan needs to be is a thing that is black and white. What are we looking for? Not the nebulous language that's presented here, which is crazy that that's what's that's what's the objective in a comprehensive plan for a city. >> So, let's go back to Bolton and Mink for a second. They did an analysis what went well and not so well in the last comp plan. Did they give any examples of communities where it went well? you know that they this is how they felt it was successful or to be blunt are we all muddling through this together? I mean, yes. Frankly, I think, you know, this this system um you know, pigging backing on some of the con comments that Commissioner Applic made is this is um a really big unfunded mandate of regional planning that everybody has to do at the exact same time. There is only so many resources. There's only so many consultants that can help us. And earlier today in talking with Bolton and Mink just about some of the communities that they're providing proposals for, they've already probably provided proposals for 20 cities and updating their comp plans. So while they're updating theirs, they're up, you know, ours there, you know, everybody's. Um, I think that yes, many communities are just muddling through, but I also think that it it really starts with the foundation documents of what are we asking for in our plan? What do we hope to achieve? And those are some of the things that I think this conversation is helping us form is what are the expectations that we have for public engagement and how do we want to see us get to a better maybe check the box system so that we're actually seeing some some true progress as we go forward the next three 5 10 20 years. One one thing real quick that I could share from experience, especially with what's successful comprehensive plan and what isn't. Successive or successful comprehensive plan is one that everybody's bought into. And that's not just nebulous language. That's like that goes back to that public outreach, the the groups listening to them, them seeing the value of the the time that they've given, the words that they've given in the product. Uh but also super important that everybody here understands that we're doing this for us, not to answer some marching orders from somebody else. Well, like staff can deal with anything that comes from outside, but this is an opportunity for this growing city with so much promise in front of them to help like develop that in the right way, fix the the sins of the past, the things that maybe got short changed. The last comprehensive plan, and be able to address it. The whole world changed in 2020, six years ago, today actually. Um uh with with COVID, we're in a a crazy world that people are still working from home. Nobody would have thought that there you didn't have to pack a lunchbox and go somewhere else six years ago when this was being finalized. U it's being able to address those things and be able to submit a future for this city that everybody kind of buys into at least a little and doesn't just throw barbs at and just thinks it's such a bad idea. is being able to find that compromise and that path forward so that we have our marching orders to be able to implement it because this city deserves something good and comprehensive plan is that roadmap that allows us to understand and strategically look at the growth of the city in a way that benefits the future rather than you know balancing out all those needs uh of what what comes out of things and we talked about Susan like that seniors are really involved with this I think it's really that's a a critical component of any public outreach just making sure those people who want to be involved are involved. But it also is critical that we're involving the people that will inherit this entire plan 25 years from now. And I think uh the the chair made a sad joke about where we were going to be in where he was going to be in 2050. But in the end that we have to make sure that we're addressing the youth. What will attract the next generation here? What are they looking for to be able to meet those needs? Because as demographics change, we want to make sure that we are meeting those needs so that all the promise that exists here is coming out in this comprehensive plan and we have a roadmap to to accomplish that. Not what the MET says and all that stuff, but focusing on the goals for the city, focusing on the density that we need for the city and all the good things we need for the city. That's really how we scope this going forward. And it's less about who's making us do it and what why they're making us do it and what they're getting out of it. It's focusing on the goals that support the future of the city. So that's what I would say as we're at the as we're talking about goals in the in the back of your mind all the things you guys have all lived here for a a long time. Maybe not Cy because you know he's 22 years old but uh I'm kidding. Uh but uh but I mean like you all have perspectives of what you've seen work and not work and that's what we want to pull on as we talk with you as we work through with you with this work through with our civic groups. What are the experiences of the past that we don't want to repeat? And what are the promises that they see that we need to maximize going forward? >> One of the things I'd like to see as we start to to build what we would like to see in the future is building back the concept of of of a community. One of the nice things about that Somefield development is that they've got common areas where lots of folks from the community see each other at or are or are arranged to to meet at one of their gazeos and and and do a a neighborhood cookout. Um, Forest Lake does a a pretty good job of of our nights to reunite, but but we need some spaces in our new developments that are a going back to the medieval commons. All right? where a place where where folks come together because in this community either you leave in the morning and you come back and you drive in the in the garage and you close down the garage door and you're in your house for the night or you don't leave in the morning and you're in your house and you stay in your house all day. And and we're not building community. We're not building the the helping each other out. We're not we're we're we're trying to do a few things like like Thrive or like trying to get get folks to um be part of of community theater or or things like that. But in terms of opportunities to build community on neighborhood basises, wider walking trails so that you could actually stand on a sidewalk and and and have more than two people on a sidewalk that that there's room for three or four people to walk together and have a conversation. um just common areas linking trails up so that that you could have a group that says, "Okay, we're going to do um a a community bike trip." I was in the Netherlands and 30 years ago, the whole community came out for these little little bike events. Um and it was grandparents and little kids and and the whole community. But it would be very difficult to do something like that in Forest Lake unless you stayed right around your own little tiny neighborhood and sort of blocked off the road. Um, so how do we how do we start putting together a comp plan that helps build community and build people talking to each other and and helping each other and and and being community >> and that's why I believe 5 years here we need a brewery and one to two dog parks to start hands down bring people together but I think on that and then going back to the very first convers conversation about reach and talking to the community. Um, social groups, going to the communities. Great that y'all are passionate about it. I'm very passionate about talking to businesses and getting businesses involved. Um, because not only do you when you have good businesses who love the city, that's going to attract people to want to come move here and stay here and not live here, go somewhere else and come back to their house and just stay in their house all the time. You're gonna get businesses who want to see the growth of the city exceed what we're even planning. They want to be part of it. They want to be encouraged by it. They want to tell their employees about it. They want to be part of every aspect of it. And maybe the short time I've lived here, the 5 years, uh I don't see that. There's a couple things here and there, couple people who are, you know, Forest Lake proud, but everybody else is kind of that tend of I have my own business. I do my own thing. I go to my own house. I live my own life. and there's really nothing that they're encouraged to do within the city. So, I think it's that's a huge opportunity we can take advantage of and trying to reach people and unify and show that the businesses are also invested into this plan and they're here for a long time as well and they're not going to leave after five, six, seven years when maybe kids are moved away and they're empty nesters or things like that. So, uh anything on that front I'm 100% for and willing to work on them and work with. I've seen some other areas of the country where businesses um want their employees to be happy in that community because you're you're you're close to work and on a really bad day you can actually get to work. Um and they invest in in a local park or they invest in um some community amenities that encourage people to live in that community. Yeah, I mean rabbit trail conversation, but I've thought for years why businesses and cities don't invest in better traffic light coordination so their employees can get to work faster and be happier when they get there because they don't have to run into traffic. But that's like an involvement of a business in a city that loves being there, >> right? >> Instead of letting somebody else do it. I I can tell you from experience, traffic control systems like that are crazy. Do I mean there's good times and really bad times like when Be careful what you wish for. The robot the robots are going to take over. >> Any other final comments for staff this evening regarding the comp plan or is there any information staff need from us? >> This is not this is really helpful. I think just this early preliminary feedback of you know what's what are some of the high points and use some of these high points sticking points maybe let's say um those opportunities for early engagement that I think um that creative dialogue that we're hearing now that we can build in and ask for on the onset. Um these are things that are going to go I think a long way in helping us set that foundation. Um, one of the big things that I really anticipate us focusing on still this year is that community visioning that setting that foundation for that community building that I'm hopeful that we're going to be touching multiple generations, residents, businesses, and visitors, right? Because they're all shaping our community right now. And I think they all have a vision for the future of Forest Lake. What is that collectively? I think it's going to be really important as then we really start deep diving in how do we get there because that's what the meat and the potatoes of our plan is is the how we get to that vision of the future. >> What just popped into my head head of a way to explain this to people that don't care or understand is complex. >> See what you mean Andy? People don't care about this. >> I I got news for you. Most people they just want to go home and be left alone. Um but >> because we don't have a community like >> well the comp plan is how much is your city going to change >> and what is that change going to look like? >> Yeah. >> That is the way that you're going to go get them to go whoa oh wait what change? >> Yeah. >> So just something to maybe use in some of their messaging and >> dialogue. >> That's a great because it's true. I mean >> a great you know as as you're building a camp you're going to have to have a campaign. You're gonna have to have an engagement campaign. >> Sorry, it sucks, but that's No, we know that. >> I think all of it's going to be really tough that I think the community engagement is going to be the one of challenges could summarize it and change with us. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, on the billboard, we've had um the EDA's had some ongoing rotational come grow with us and so maybe just kind of pivoting that some that the that we are we are changing. We are a community in transition and we're going to keep transitioning for a while. But what does that look like when you know 20 30 years from now when there isn't anymore an MXR where it just got neighborhoods and festivals and businesses and trails and all the things all the things >> all the things this is really helpful I don't have anything else I don't know you know I will say um I intentionally didn't have a lot of presentation intentionally didn't want to necessarily even throw specific questions because I wanted to get off-the- cuff feedback from you. Um, I know all of you are going to go home and stay up all night long, not fall asleep because you'll just be like thinking through these things or something will come to you next Tuesday while you're pulling the toast out of the toaster. Feel free to reach out to Michael, Stephen, or I. Um, you know, as we continue to kind of scope this document out of um, moving forward with a plan, we want to hear at least any other additional thoughts you might have. Um, there will be a time when we'll have to say thank you, but we're going to move forward now. Um, but reach out if you think of something. >> Susan, >> you said that the parks, lakes, and trails commission or or whatever is putting together their plan. Will we have an opportunity to see that and perhaps comment on how it works or doesn't work with the things that that we're faced with. >> Um I think that they'll be uh making recommendation to the council to adopt their plan. I think that we can probably provide some comment on that before it goes to the council. I think then what ends up happening is as we um go to update the comp plan um we kind of go back to the community and say, "Okay, here's our 10-year master plan for parks and trails. What's the most kind of what are the overarching principles that apply? You know, you take from that plan. We're not creating new. We're pulling from that plan and putting it into this one. We're not going to be creating a separate parks, lakes, trails chapter or a a parks and recreation chapter that isn't aligned with the parks plan >> commission. Right. But if if you're asking the community, what are the overarching goals or or or or concerns or hopes? >> Shouldn't that be done before? >> They are they are doing public engagement. I apologize. >> Yes, there is public engagement going right now. They had a survey. I think they had over 500 responses on their online survey. So, there's been some engagement out there. All right, move to item nine, updates. We'll start with our esteemed council person, Mr. Larson. >> Oh, I I would point, but you can. >> No, go ahead. You got it >> since we directed it to you. >> Good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. Um I don't really have any updates really uh tonight. I would just like to mention that this evening from 5 to 6 we had uh a public speaking uh engagement regarding the the marina Tim's marina about uh doing some other uh expansion on like docks and things like that. Um, I know that came before you some time ago and uh there was some discussion on it. Now there's more discussion on some things that they would like to do and the Forest Lake Association has been involved and they've been active on their uh website and Facebook with things and they drew a pretty good crowd tonight upstairs. So uh that'll be coming this direction here soon. So, two weeks. >> I anticipate a good size crowd and a lot of feedback. So, >> put your boots on for that. Get ready for that one to come. So, but other than that, I don't really have anything. If you have anything of me, I can do my best to circumvent. >> Questions for Jeff? >> When is pothole season gonna end here? >> Good luck, sir. Um, I just think the I know they're actively out doing stuff, but with so much different like right now we had the rain, then we had the freeze, and now we got the snow and everything else. So, um, I know I've in the area where I live on North Shore, I've seen them out driving by throwing uh some stuff in, but the road is like a terrible washboard. It's horrendous. It's hard to keep up, especially when they put it down and we get these little nuisance snowfalls and they go out and plow and they're tearing some of that stuff back up again. So, it's it's a vicious circle. But, I know Mr. Adams is uh and his company are trying to do the best they can, but it has been a horrendous season anywhere in the metro, I think, has really struggled with this. song >> and I don't know how we get it across to folks but 97 and 61 are not city streets and our public works folks one are not really allowed to work on those but boy do they get blamed for it. also Broadway Avenue and >> um and County Road 32 uh or 11th Avenue and County Road 33. So some of the major kind of arterial roads in the community or skeleton roads aren't aren't the cities, but we do try to work with those partners. >> Yeah. With the county and and stuff. I know that our public works in the county have uh tried to work hand inand especially on county 32 project especially that's forthcoming. So there's a lot of communication and things between each other on that. So >> any other questions council person's got hurricanes. We get potholes. >> I'll take potholes any day of the any day of the year twice on Sunday. >> You drive on Northshore Trail. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much, >> Abby. >> Uh yeah, I have a few updates. Some of them you might have seen if you I don't know if all people at the city email get our weekly updates. Um but last week we did learn that um certain city planning, zoning, and land use applicants are subject to a fraud scam that's going on right now. So this does include direct email address um emails to these applicants. Um unfortunately, Commissioner Applic who was an applicant was um one person that was affected recently. These emails look like um they are coming from at least um in this circumstance was from Michael. It's we had one other one that had looked like it came from Chair Gerard in the past um that essentially are asking for you to wire transfer money for an application approval fee. Um we've done some outreach public um education. Uh we're also going to be talking internally with administration and legal about how we you know what we do is public um but how we can take some measures to maybe reduce exposure for our applicants um by trying to um limit personal information where possible. We've already done quite a bit of that over the years by pulling application forms out and all of that sort of stuff, but we're going to keep on just trying to see if we can fight the AI bots that the bad guys are creating. Um, I did let you know about those MUSA implementation guidelines that have gone into effect. There's a few others. We haven't well vetted through what all of those are. Um, some of those do directly tie to their ability to better monitor the activities the city is having uh for those sewer connections that we talk about. Um, and then also just wanted to let you know that last week the EDA updated just a 2026 work plan. Normally they do a few year work plan, but given the fact that the city council had wanted to do some strategic planning, they had been waiting for that. Instead, we decided, let's just get a one-year work plan in place. Included in that is um some more planning on Headarters 123 as well as um an update to the Highway 61 corridor. So, we did a corridor assessment um in 2012. And so, getting that updated in advance of some activities that the uh MDOT will be doing in the next few years. Um, and then also something that might just be interesting to you all is a vacant land analysis. Looking at all the vacant land that the city owns and looking at opportunities of, you know, are there rightful uses? How did we acquire it? Are the ways we can put this back in the tax roles or, you know, help encourage additional development. So, you guys might be interested in some of that. >> Any questions for Abby? >> I would just say everyone out there be careful. I mean, it looked exactly like it was from the city and had >> so good >> a PDF with the city letter head and signatures and everything. So, I was like the next morning I got a bill for $3,500 for the city. I'm like I was so mad I didn't click the link to pay. But, um it's it's real, so be careful. >> Yes. Um and I will also say all of you have been issued a city email address. if you get those metro IT notifications, you know, try to do those securities because they really help just those quick little things we sometimes can spot. Um because I they're they're getting better and better and better. I will say other than um the the from email address, um everything in that looked like it could have come from Michael. Um >> it was planning at forestlake.gov gov was the email address that they had and the only thing it was was a wire transfer. That was the only thing that was like what that was the question. Thank god Commissioner Applowski got angry and reached out to to to help cuz uh yeah that really got the ball rolling and I was just I was just showing Michael that he was in the newspaper because he was a part of the press release for what to look for. So now he's famous. Tell all your friends in Florida. >> Well, that didn't take long. So then uh Well, we'll get to you soon, Mike. You have to hold on. And Abby, anything? Nothing else? >> No, no, thank you, >> Stephen. >> Oh, we had a uh speaking of uh u Tim's Marina, uh one part, one leg of the stool for that uh proposed project was the environmental assessment worksheet uh that was prescribed. If you remember last year, uh they originally came to provide this through the concept plan. Uh through that discussion, we uh instructed them that they had to do an environmental assessment worksheet. Uh, so they provided that, they went through that, they provided in December. We reviewed it. It was released for public comment for 30 days beginning in January, ending in the beginning of February. We went through all those comments and we worked with TIMS to re take a lot of the comments uh to have them readress. One thing about uh public participation of all the EAWs that have been published in foreseeable future, Forest Lakes had the very most public comments. um which says a lot about why I love this city that they were uh uh so involved. Uh it made it immensely more complicated to review with so many people uh uh that that had feelings for this project. So we presented it to the council. They were the uh decision authority really for uh a declaration if we needed an environmental impacts statement which would be about a two-year process and lots and lots of money uh to analyze. Through our analysis, we we found that the addition of these two docks wouldn't be uh a significant environmental impact to uh Forest Lake. Uh that's not saying that there isn't an impact. There is an impact. is just uh uh very difficult to say that it's significant and we couldn't get to that get to that point. That said, that document has now been released to the Environmental Quality Board, the EQB monitor. Um it will be published a week from Tuesday uh because of their publish cycle. And after that, there's a 30-day appeal period on the document that's there. But u I'll make sure that tomorrow morning when I get back in the office that I forward you all the link especially you commissioner Young so uh you can read it uh uh that has that determination with all of the public comments uh that were related and our response to each comment uh that was that was had. We painstakingly as a staff reviewed each comment and addressed each one way above and beyond the typical noted uh that comes with a lot of these. uh we wanted to make sure that we were encouraging that uh that that participation from the public. Um especially with something that's so near and dear as we saw um earlier. Uh this is a very uh this is an issue a lot of people care about. Um so um especially the lakes health uh that doesn't approve the project. As a matter of fact, in two weeks we'll be having a discussion about if this project goes forward uh based on what's presented and what you hear through the public hearing. So, be looking forward to that. That will be the uh uh the conditional use permit amendment to allow the uh two docks as well as a variance on the parking. And Michael will be presenting that to the this commission as well as supporting the public hearing. and and as someone who's done a bunch of assessments and and reviewed another bunch that you responded individually to each of the comments is is is enormous. I mean it's it it is enormously good. Um that does not happen typically. So yes, usually people just say now dead. >> No. >> No. But the the individual responses that's impressive. >> Um I I I hope in again encouraging that participation. We've been very transparent with a lot of the interest groups that are organizations that are interested in this project. Uh making sure that they understand that what you saw at that neighborhood meeting was a lot to do with us reaching out to these organizations and making sure they knew that this was happening so that they could have these discussions as well as the public hearing. So, I apologize in advance for if that meeting ends up being very long. Uh, but it has a lot to do with the work that we've done as a staff to make sure that the the the right people uh know that this is happening because the the the level of care is so high with especially this project. >> Any other questions? Just Stephen >> Michael? Just echoing everyone else. Um, I won't be asking anyone for a wire transfer. I do not want your money. So hopefully that won't happen again and we won't be defrauded anymore. That's all I got. >> Thank you, >> Andy. >> Nothing. We went over it. Sorry it was late. >> Susan. >> Yep. >> Oh, yes, I do. Um, next Wednesday at noon, Gail, I forget her last name, our Met Council representative will be doing a presentation to the Forest Lake Rotary. Um, and we encourage guests, just let me know. It's at noon at the Legion. If you are interested in attending, um, we cover your lunch and, um, it should be interesting. >> Susan, I'd like to attend. >> Don, nothing. Jesse, >> nothing at time. >> Nothing. >> Chair has nothing. So with that, chair's looking for a motion to adjurnn. >> So moved. >> I have a motion. Do I have a second? >> I'll second it. >> I have a motion, a second. It's a non-debatable motion. All those in favor signify by saying I. >> I. >> I. >> Opposed. Abstensions. Motion carries. Thank you for your time.