[Music] good evening it's 701 we'll call the meeting to order Ken would you do the rooll please absolutely commissioner LaRon present commissioner Wagner not present commissioner Steeler present chair dard here commissioner young here commissioner sender here commissioner Miller not here thank you we ask you aable please join us stand and join us to the Pledge of Allegiance Al to FL United States of America stands na indivisible andice for all chair is looking for a motion to approve the agenda as presented or with changes commissioner young Mr chair um down in in um number six and number seven uh pardon me number six we have a two public hearings but we do not have on the agenda um any provision for us to make a recommendation city council so I would um move that agenda item six be revised to have a 6 A1 which is consideration of the comprehensive plan Amendment and zoning map Amendment etc etc and that there be a 6b1 consideration of the variances for signage the Forest Lake Ford Etc I have a motion do I have a second I'll second that I have a motion and a second it's a non-debatable motion all those in favor signify by saying I I I I opposed abstentions motion carries chair is looking for a motion to approve the consent agenda as presented or with changes chair would like to pull item a the Planning Commission meeting minutes from May 88 2024 so that would um so that's my motion I have a second second all those in favor I I opposed motion carries the issue with the meeting minutes is when we adjourn uh on that me um at that meeting the vote was an 80 vote it should have been a 70 vote so just a small minor change that's the only change I have any other changes to the minutes hearing none all those in favor signif by by saying I I I I opposed extensions motion carries we have our first regular agenda item which is a public hearing for the comprehensive comprehensive plan Amendment and zoning map Amendment for donelly 9322 Street Northwest says a public hearing the way this will work this evening as the city staff will present the application as they understand it the Commissioners will then ask any clarification questions that they need from staff we will then ask the applicant if they would like to add anything um upon that being complet complete we will then hold a public hearing um when everyone has spoken to that and I'll give a few more rules for that uh when that time comes then we will close the public hearing and then we will uh bring it back for in this case a recommendation uh to City counil so with that I believe Ken you're presenting yeah that would be me thank you uh good evening Mr chair members of the commission audience the first item on the agenda is as roduced a proposed comprehensive plan Amendment and zoning ordinance map Amendment for property at 932 2 Street Northwest that's one of the maps here we go the property in question is this long funky shaped property here uh again 932 2 Street Northwest just North of Highway 8 and just west of Forest Road and Highway 61 the here's a enlarged look at the front part of the site I go back to this one I'm going to jump around a little bit okay property is also has a large amount of white lands on it so they are requesting two changes to the designations for the site versus to the comprehensive plan designation our land use plan currently shows for Rural residential use second change there requesting is for the zoning of the property which also shows rural residential use is this piece here currently it has or has had a daycare center on the property that operated for about 40 years the owners of the dayer property are proposing to sell the property and the buyer wants to use it go back to this map again here's the front part of the property that's not in the Wetland uh for an office space and storage space for his exterior exterior contracting business it's currently based out of his home in Hugo but to run a business off out of this property the both the comprehensive plan and Zoning need to be changed because Commercial Business Office use is not permitted in those designated uh designations again residential so first we'll look at the comprehensive plan Amendment and how that fits or doesn't fit with this request uh again currently planned residential rural residential which is for large lot single family homes of maybe one unit every five or 10 acres uh we can't discern or I couldn't discern how how this property was planned rural residential and Zone rural rural residential probably historically goes back 30 or 40 years but that's not real important now other than the change that's in front of the commission this evening looking at the comprehensive plan change specifically I'll go back to this one again to change this to the commercial designation which is the same as the property to the norm and this property to the east we look to see if there's any standards or goals or policies that the city should follow when considering such a change there aren't specific criteria in our city code or in the comprehensive plan for considering a change however I outlined in the report some of the goals in the comprehensive plan that that are most relevant to this request first one I outlin it's on page 12 of the packet page two of the report is protecting the natural resources again the proposed plan with going back here they are not proposing any changes to the front of the property the applicants want to use the building primarily as it is again for office space and storage and use the parking lot as is and with the large Wetland area in the rear to the West that would not impacted and I don't think any development could ever impact that because of the Watershed District regulations in place now the second thing we I looked at was our guidance for land and managing growth and that talks about needing specific land uses for needing all sorts of housing types and needs and provide increased areas for commercial industrial and job growth and again this proposal would meet that the loss of the 8 Acres or 8.9 Acres of residential designation yes that's an impact but in reality again there's not going to be much residential development there if any and I would argue it's not a good place for it with the highways in the location right adjacent to those highways we also look I also looked at the goals and objectives for economic development and the comp a plan and again this proposal fits that in that it it's a re U acknowledging the importance of attracting and encouraging new light industrial office industrial and Professional Services to the city soliciting small or businesses that would fill voids and current range of retail or business services in the city and providing an adequate amount of land for commercial IND uses again I think this proposal checks all those boxes if the city changes the zoning map then at the same or excuse me the comprehensive plan the city should also change the zoning map again that's this map again shown rural residential the zoning map change again would be to the B3 District which is consistent with the area to the north and east and there are 13 standards in the city code for considering a zoning map amendment I outlined those in the report a couple of the highlights I won't read them all are that the existing and proposed use of the zoning and excuse me the existing use and Zoning of nearby properties again the proposal is to be consistent with the B3 there is rural residential here but that is for homes that are coming in off to the north and west that we or to consider the context of the development and land uses in the area I think that zoning map change fits that as well that there be adequate buffer or transition between potentially incompatible districts again with the large Wetland complex here there there will be plenty of buffer and that the proposed action will not adversely affect property Val values that all said again I think this proposal meets those criteria and uh I'll leave it at that I touched on in the report a couple other items more just for background and information uh outlined a little bit about parking it looks like there's maybe room for 20 or 22 spaces or Vehicles here uh my best count and at most the applicant is saying they might need 10 12 spaces so it should be playing a parking on site without needing any changes if there were to be changes then they would have to go through a design review process uh they uh receive some traffic information and student Counts from uh the seller the applicant co-applicant of the property and in summary the number of vehicle trips when this facility was operating at its peak were probably 120 to 30 trips per day in and out with drop off pickup buses Etc and with the business use it might be 10 or 20 trips so certainly a lot less impact on traffic uh in the area access they are not proposing any changes that again no proposed changes to the parking at this point uh and just as a way of information there is no public infrastructure sewer and water I should say uh near this site the closest is down to the South about 1200 ft South of Highway 8 they are proposing to use the existing well and septic on site uh we had the neighborhood meeting back on May 29th we had the uh buyers the sellers here one of the Realtors was in attendance one of the neighbors actually two of the neighbors uh that are the closest neighbor to the north one of the Commissioners and myself are in the meeting a chance for some questions and answers and discussion about the history of the property and what's being proposed on that kind of thing I thought it was a productive meaning we did advertise this meeting as a public hearing as you introduced Mr chair so that will be coming up we have not received any comments via email or phone call ahead of the meeting uh as of even this afternoon so in summary uh it's St st's opinion that this proposal both the change of the Landes plan and the zoning map meet our findings goals and standards for such changes so in your report page 16 of the packet page six there's two recommendations uh one is to recommend approval of the proposed comprehensive plan Amendment and then the second recommendation is to recommend approval of the proposed zoning map zoning ordinance map Amendment again for this property here at 932 second Street Northwest and with that I will take questions and there are applicants and applicants Representatives here as well Commissioners Ken you're going to need two separate motions on this correct yes thank you another question Ken what is uh out you know whenever we got a contractor which I like I'm always concerned on outdoor storage what is the rules for outdoor storage stage in the B3 I meant to look that what they have told us so far is there's a garage here they will be using for storage and part of the building they will be using for storage they also explain that they're primarily residential exterior work exciting Roofing and most materials get taken to the job site and not brought to the office this will serve more of an office and meeting function than a delivery drop off point for materials but what is the requirement in3 oh if if they wanted to have outdoor storage then we're into a a site plan review possibly screening requirements Landscaping all those kind of things okay none proposed at the moment like the winning property I'm sorry like the win property yeah any other questions for staff I understand the applicant is here uh would you wish to add anything no my said I did all that want pleas come up to I came from my GRS in the soccer game so I you state your name and address for the record please Doug amonson precise exteriors so what Ken said is correct and nothing will be stored there the only when I say storage we have extra material from job sites I'm not going to throw away so I'm not going to fill landfill so we'll keep that and reuse it for the next job down the road but we don't have materials dropped at or would not have them dropped at the office office they all go directly to the job site when I say storage that's very minimal on what would be put in the garage okay so just wanted to clarify that as long as you're up there any questions from staff or from I'm sorry from Commissioners drew the chair how how big a company do you have how many staff would be officing out of this location at full capacity if you want to say that five five people so it's my son and I who are partners and my daughter-in-law which probably would not be the there we have an office manager and then we have a production manager and a sales manager so all any other questions thank you we may have some questions later for you no problem app thank you this is a public hearing what we'll do is we'll open the public hearing we wish anyone who wishes to speak to this application please step up to the lectum state your name and address for the record spend a couple minutes giving your your thoughts on the application once we have heard from from everyone interested in speaking we will close the public hearing and we will bring it back up here then for um recommendations to the city council excuse me so we'll open the public hearing at 7:18 p.m. does anyone wish to speak to this application can do we have anyone online who wishes to speak to this application mind my shift I don't see any okay this is where everyone gets to hum the Jeopardy theme for a minute or so I'll ask again does anyone wish to speak to this application seeing no one come forward we'll close the public hearing at 7:19 p.m. bring it back to the Commissioners what would you like to do I'd make a motion to recommend to the city council approval of the proposed comprehensive plan amendment I have a motion do I have a second second I have a motion and a second any discussion hearing none all those in F all those in favor Signum by saying I I opposed extensions motion carries I'll make a second motion to recommend the city council approval of the proposed zoning ordinance matter amendment I have a motion do I have a second I'll second it duel huh yeah I have a motion in multiple seconds uh any discussion on the motion hearing none all those in favor signify by saying I I I opposed extensions motion carries unanimously so the way this will work now this will move on to city council and they will take it up at the June 24th June 24th meeting so we make a recommendation to them and then the council will uh make the final decision but on behalf of the Planning Commission welcome to Forest Lake we wish you great success and I greatly appreciated um your openness to my questions at the neighborhood meeting I it took care of a lot of my concerns I appreciate that you're welcome you can stay if you want to go there's more riveting stuff coming thank you riveting me riveting riveting nothing clears a room faster revision I will discuss next item hand I want to get it in front of you before okay thank you sir the Chang not even going to look at you where we at here page from two to three all right I'm back Mr chair all right so item 6B is a public hearing for variance for signage for Forest Lake Ford 508 15 Street Southwest Ken you're presenting I am sir thank you Forest Lake Ford this site here on the east side of I35 long 15 Street Southwest excuse me has made application to the city for variances for a pylon sign to go up and be visible from Interstate 35 all right got to switch around here okay this is a little bit of a dated aerial map but I included it because there's an important element here this was this was the site before they started their construction there are two Billboards on the property one here in the red circle and here in the southern Circle Ford or Ford is requiring the developers Builders of forley Ford to install a pylon sign out along the interstate and when the original planning and site work was going on they were originally intending to put it I think in about this area here the and their narrative explains this through the process of figuring out if that sign would work or not and then understanding the requirements of the Billboards which are here and here this cross-hatched area is a what I call a site visibility triangle or an area where because of the contractual require requirements of the Billboards the Ford development cannot put up anything that would obstruct the view of those Billboards which falls in those areas which would include the probably would have been the best site for their Pyon sign uh in fact the gentleman from Ford have told me that even their lights on this part of the parking lot which are were 12 or 16 ft tall four or 5 in in diameter the billboard owners were concerned that those might be blocking the view of the billboard they may have to change those lights that's how uh restrictive they are so then they've they figured out well that's not going to work what can we do so they've made application to for variances for it was originally two things and it turns out was three and I'll get there get to that in a minute so code allows get this work here code allows uh or and requires actually I'll go back my apologies the way the code is written it says they can because they are adjacent to the freeway they can have two pylon signs they're going to have one out front code allows the second one it has to have a 20ft setback from the RightWay and can be no taller than 30 ft and a size limit of 100 square ft you got to kind of check all three boxes to have that but because of these site triangles and the limits on that they can't meet those criteria so they have proposed couple well I apologize I'm going to jump around here couple Alternatives one is shown here is option one for a sign and the other one is option two down here both those locations would keep the pylon sign out of the side triangles but to do so they have to have an increase setback from the RightWay of anywhere from 90 to 110 ft depending on which location and to ensure that the sign would be visible they would have to have it 47 feet tall so it could be seen above the building as say if you're going northbound you could see it this way and so it isn't blocking the site visibility of the other billboard the existing Billboards unfortunately we discovered uh after I wrote the report and deep into this the code had that limit of 100 square feet for the sign phase Ford is requiring them and that's this sign here that that sign face be 13 30 ft so the revised resolution if it is so adopted includes Provisions for a setback variance the height variance and the signf face variance we can talk through each of those if you wish or when you wish so the big thing with variances as probably most of the Commissioners know is we do have standards whether we should or could approve those uh for any type of requests in the city the biggest and probably the most important one is that uh because of particular physical surroundings shape or topographic conditions unique to the specific parcel involved a practical difficulty to the owner would result as distinguished from a mere inconvenience if the strict strict letter of regulations were to be carried out the applicants have identified the Triangular sign site easement areas as the Practical difficulty of the property uh they and to back up again when when they were designing the site laying it out they proposed a sign here that met the criteria after they started doing the Deep dive and trying to negotiate with the billboard folks that they weren't going to budge they couldn't work out a deal so now again that's part of the reason for the various requests the code uh as far as the setbacks and I when included that language I frankly think it's written kind of poorly it says the secondary sign shall be located between the principal building and I35 again in here and shall be set back 20t from the I35 RightWay it doesn't say be set back at least 20 ft from I35 when I read that it says it's got to be 20 ft can't be 19 can't be 18 can't be 25 it's got to be 20 that's I can't imagine that was the intent I would think the intent would have been to be at least 20 feet but it doesn't say that so that's I would argue not the best written code that's one of those many things we'll hopefully get to clean up at some point so that that 20 foot surely uh certainly limits their options uh the height I'm going to jump back to the images the height proposal now um so okay so this is looking Northbound on the freeway this shows the sign here with 30 ft tall the next thing image then shows it up at 47 ft tall and then this is the southern for uh location 30 foot tall sign is hidden be behind the existing billboard the 47t tall just Peaks its head above the billboard and then this is then looking southbound again 30ft billboard here 30t tall 47t tall that helps ensure it's visible as you're going northbound clearly more visible going Southbound and then for the option two site way down here it's lost not seeing where because again the part of the reason for the height is to get above the building itself which is about 30 feet tall so that's the images showing the four different views or images north south Northbound southbound and the two different sign locations uh so back to the other criteria I talked about the setbacks talked about the height is a 40 foot or 47 foot tall signal on the freeway uh ideal probably not is it going to be distracting or harmful or any of that to the neighbors or to the general public I sure don't think so uh are there signs across the freeway that might be that high I I wasn't able to determine if there are some that are 40 or more feet tall there may be I I just don't know the the trickiest criteria uh item C which is 20 Page 29 and in your packet talks about Flight of the land owners due to circumstances unique to the property not created by the landowner and that gets back to the site plan if everyone would have known a year ago 18 months ago that the sign placement was potentially going to be a problem could the building and been redesigned and laid out differently potentially but we still struggle I still struggle with that 20 foot setback requirement that that locks it in kind of right here and then that almost puts it into those side triangles so yeah so but better planning maybe something better could have been figured out that wouldn't have needed all the variances or some of the variances don't know so I'm not going to say that's 100% meeting that criteria lastly would the granting of the variance variances I should say alter the essential character of the locality again I don't think so with all the commercial businesses and being along the freeway uh I don't see that as an issue so to wrap it up my recommendation is for the commission to discuss the variances and again added a third one in that resolution that you have the 100 feet to 130 ft sign pH size if the commission so inclined to uh approve those and again variances are approved by the council or excuse me by the commission there is a motion with the resolution that I handed out we're all three the resol original resolution was just for the height variance and the location variance the amended one includes the sign face variance request for 130 square fet that's it in the summary the applicants are here to answer questions I will answer those as well Commissioners questions Miss Young can we granted variances earlier on this project did we not no they Madam chair or Mr chair members of the commission they had asked for variances on I don't remember what it was but that got denied and they they had to tweak their site plan to it may have been with setbacks for the parking lot I I believe along the fence line buing the freeway I think they wanted to get closer Ken as as we look at see we have frequently had variance requests I bought a piece of property it's going to be our family home we wanted a five-bedroom property whoops this one will only fit a two-bedroom Cottage uh I bought the property to me that's not the the the property is a problem it is I bought a piece of property and I knew stuff was here and I knew what the size were and so I have a real struggle with number c um it would be hard to purchase that property without knowing that the Billboards were there um I know that when I purchased property I looked at what the covenants and restrictions were on my property and made sure I could do the things I wanted to do and I think that these are pretty smart business folks and that they would do the same um so could you help me understand um how this this particular request meets item C especially the um the request for the larger signed face and the additional height uh not easily and that's why my last sentence in that my explanation says however one could say the circumstances now in place that limit the placement of the sign were created by the applicant landowner by how they designed and constructed the building I I'm sure they'll be they'll be able to answer that question better than I but I that's the one of the of all the criteria that I struggle with the most the building is designed and as you showed us has a very large face um toward the expressway right there yep um driving by it on the expressway today from both directions um why would was it not considered to put a lighted sign on that face which quite frankly would be more visible than what they're proposing um especially considering the two billboard signs that Brack at this property Miss Young Mr chair I believe they've applied for a signed permit for that wall I just haven't I I remember reviewing one that I think it'll just say Ford I don't remember for sure but there there is one in the works to be clear I think the big push here the pylon sign along the freeway is being driven by Ford motor out of Detroit not the applicants and they're trying to meet their contractual obligations to Ford but they can address that much better than I okay because I you know I drive around the nation and not every Sign Ford sign is 47 feet high and um I have not measured all of them but we are not the only city that has sign requirements agreed others questions last one Ken if you look on the graphic that you up here have up here as you on the I'll call it the North as you approach the north end of the building you end up where the two lines meet and looks like you got give or take 30 feet there maybe between right where you're right there in the building what is the reason that the sign can't go into that area between the building and that Magic Triangle of the Billboards I'm I'm speculating again they'll be able to answer this better this is a drive AIS to get around the building and that may cut into where Vehicles could get through especially trucks and fire trucks and that kind of thing is it we're in a pinch Point kind of right there I don't I don't have the dimensions of what that is but the base of the sign probably needs to be three or 4 fet to support a 30 or 40 foot tall sign and and we know if Ford has a requirement that the middle of the Ford sign has to be on a pylon or can it be off to the side or is that a question for the applicant yes could the pylon be on top of the roof no so that the maximum is still 30 ft rooftop signs aren't allowed okay or put it the pylon right against the building so that it's then not anyway yeah all right uh other questions of staff I believe the applicant is here if you could uh step up we have a couple questions for you we ask that you state your name and address for the record please Steve McDaniels and I'm at 37 cat bird Lane in St Paul uh Brian OKO I'm at 17720 hide Park Avenue anything you'd like to add to begin with sure we're excited to be in Forest Lake so uh we understand this is a a problem of our own making uh to uh commissioner Young's comments we we did buy the four parcels and combine it into one we were moving relatively quick for a multitude of reasons uh we've never had a sight line easement before in our properties with billboard and we we dealt with uh the owner of the billboard company who is in Florida now and transferred it to her grandson and the sight line easement that we negotiated said you know reasonable and we've this is our my deal with our attorneys so we fully thought you know a 4-in light pole uh there's light poles everywhere on the highways and billboards you would never notice that those light Poes are there but we had such a difficult time with that word and they have the right that the contractual right so we have we do have to cut those Northern five light poles down to 11 feet and that was hard with them to negotiate that so you are right that it's it's on us I have no uh problems stating that we just we we missed it and we thought during that whole time we could negotiate to get that allowed in that spot uh we would much prefer a 30 foot sign in the middle of the building on the highway rather than go 80 feet back from the from the road I mean that's a much better spot where we had it and we pulled the wires to it uh we pulled the wires for the sign and put up the light poles so you know we're not asking for sympathy by any means we're just telling you what happened uh we still thought even up to a month ago that we could find some way to get this done but we uh we can't we failed on it so we have to put a sign somewhere uh somebody made the comment of whether it's Ford or whether it's us the auto manufacturers which we have dealt with many we represent others uh in the Twin Cities they all are very protective of their sign image program in the whole nation so uh when you do drive and see other signs the when you get a a new Point like this is for Forest Lake from Ford they do have strict requirements and you don't don't get to wiggle so and we pay for those monthly for Life they're not we can't buy them we don't own them that is Fords one of the things that they get to impose on us as as business partners with them and we accepted that uh we're doing everything we can to honor that with them by being here with you uh that is that is their proga even the image sign on the building those signs are regulated the exterior of the building is regulated by them so we wanted a bigger Ford oval on the the east side and they came out and said absolutely not because their proportions are what they want so I hope that answers some of those questions of of of what you were asking uh the facts are we would much prefer to be where we were we don't want to be here asking you for this we're very excited to be in Forest Lake we do need a sign that can be seen uh from the highway I think um the for uh to correct Ken a a little bit on the the Ford the 47 they have increment sub signs that how many feet they have and they're they have them built it's not like I can say I want a 32 foot sign with a 80 to get above the building that's the only sign and that sign top is 13 square fet and they say that's what it has to be when you're going back 80 ft that's why they design them that way or they would look too small at that height so that's where we're at with the sign from Ford and and uh uh we're doing everything we can to adapt to that we are getting close we're excited to be in town we we uh this is kind of our last our last spot where before we can get open you know and first first glad you're coming to Forest Lake we are very excited think it'll be a good addition it's been a long time since we've had a Ford dealer yeah thank you um so we welcome you to Forest Lake but as if you haven't heard it before signs are always I know a dismal topic for the Planning Commission it's never favorable for either party so we we know and so that's why we thought that the setback to get back off off the highway would would help you know we're we're back we're not trying to get back into a you know most businesses would try to keep that sign closest to the highway as you could so we're back on our option one 80 feet which is a big setback to get away from the cars and option two is 110 ft in an island I mean we we so we want to answer any questions you have and and uh uh we think it fits the criteria but we're not you and we and understand you have your your issues to deal with just just to clarify Ford is requiring the 130q foot sign and the height no to to clarify Ford has different increments of heights of signs that they that we can take from them you know the taller sign costs more and the it's frustrating I've been on National Automotive dealer councils and we this is a this is a very intense topic with dealers and the M because the higher the sign the more money they charge per month and it's forever plus the maintenance and that's fine so we we did we wanted the 30 foot where it was it's 2third the price it's closer to the road they're saying the sign they offer at that 47 ft which is what it takes to get over that building to see it that's the top that's what they have for that sign yes sir are there any signs in between 30 and 47 I mean can you I think there is a is there a 40 foot they make I think it's a 41 foot 41 foot and how big is that sign pardon me how big is that that might does that get to the 110 or something that's the 30 where where Ken is right now right yeah so that's so that would clear that billboard and it would clear it significantly it would clear but it wouldn't it what what I'm sorry commissioner which sign the 41 one foot yes would clear the billboard and would clear it significantly I would agree just from looking at if that came down 6 feet it would still clear the billboard my second question which which location do you prefer would you prefer the north of the South sign loc the perspective uh we did those for you because we wanted you to see those like that so we had our architect do it when you're driving so the 40 two foot we'd be fine with that also that sign though as you're coming it will clear the it will clear the billboard but it won't it won't clear some of the buildings when you're coming south so you which if we have to live with that we have to live with that it the Billboard's about it's four it's 14 to the base plus 12 right so that's 26 so then the 30 foot the 42 foot sign will clear the billboard but some of those building it'll still get blocked a little bit that's what our guy told coming south there's no buildings to I think he's coming from the south going coming from the south going north okay because we're putting that we're putting that back 80 feet on our pref the preferred one which is in a parking lot spot uh the other one coming so I'm sorry you know I spoke poorly the coming south if we put it in the option two because the road the highway is lower by quite a bit than the building that would probably not be able to be seen and that you know that's what would happen we could have him uh draw that but that that's why I think that he said you'd have to get to get a fully visible sign you'd have to go to that one we like I said we we can do that we don't we'd prefer it if we could see it we prefer it Mr chair yes sir Steve is it some of these buildings here if you're coming south bound is a concern to see you mean the South the South spot the second option no I if if you're driving South and wondering if the taller billboard was or 47 foot height was needed because way back well to be way back there yeah that's a little bit those building are the reality is the building is you know tilted a tiny bit so uh on the highway so coming north you can see the building as you get up to it mhm uh it's the it's the southbound and where we have to put it to get out of that sight line easement that we poorly negotiated that's our that's our issue so I I looked at that too and thought well maybe a little smaller sign would work right right there right and so uh that bride you remember the the head size of that sign 120 120 we are also in a bind because we have told locally owned smaller businesses residents no for what you are requesting and they had to modify their signs and and did not get what they wanted for for their visibility um Car Wash is a good example the car wash is a good example the the truck people was was another one and um and as we know and Ken knows um signs are are a hugely Hot Topic and the first one that goes to um 47 then oh my gosh the billboard people are going to be coming back and say oh we we have to go at least to 55 and you know it it it escalates until um until it's a problem a a really big problem um this this is we're reasonably confident that the auto dealers across the highway are over 40 I not sure about that that's why I said reasonably I think so but I drove by those today and I didn't get my trigonometry out I I know I but you know we are not difficult people we're just trying to get some sign there that will work for us in Ford I think that you know we we did it uh we have to figure out a solution for for Ford when you say Ford requires this Ford does require a pylon sign as part of their deal okay but what if you go back to Ford and say the city says no on 47 feet and what is it 32 30 face 130 is the 130 face yes we can have 41 with a smaller face I'll do it I don't have any problem saying that to them I don't I'll say anything to them but and I'll try it and I I need to understand the consequences there there's the consequences are they're going to say can we see can can the people on the highway see the sign as we agreed when we these are long processes to get these businesses approved from the manufacturer it's it's it's it's just they they have that authority to do a lot of things when it's a new point when you buy another Ford store or something then it's different because it's already there there this one is them so that's what they'll ask we'll do renderings uh if if we could fall back to the 40 did is it 41 you said it's 41 and I think it's a 120 head if we can fall back to that I I will definitely you know we don't have an option if you say that's what we have to do then I'm just going to say that's what the city said and we'll find a place to to put it we'll still have to set it way back we have to get out of the sight line easement and we will be happy that you are offering that if I could ask um a question the yes sir I I don't think the setback for us is an issue that's that's a nonissue um they really beat into our heads from the city attorney this whole sign thing and the Heights I'm I'm curious um you you have an option one and option two and I know in um you have option one up in front of us Ken and and and that location or let's go down to option two and show the the view from the road um now the shorter one the shorter sign and go from this go from Northbound looking at it my question is could you do a two signs one from the one end one from the other so you're Vis you can't have two signs that's absolutely forbidden because then we could stay within the the height limits right yeah I'm sure they that bill every night every well I'm not worried about their bill I'm worried about getting sign I I appreciate that I'm trying to get them the sign they need I'm sure Ford would like would be happy with two signs would be another a different variance so that so that would be a different more problematic for us because there'd be two signs we'd have more square footage than is allowed on the site and the code says you get one because they're adjacent to the freeway they get one additional pylon sign if they weren't adjacent to the freeway they'd only have one and they've got that out front on 15th because they're adjacent to the freeway they get get the the opportunity to put the second one up with with all those parameters along the freeway the 20 foot blah blah blah and here we are but not a third and you can't they can't can't put it on the side of the building itself it has to be I don't know if that's a provision of us because I'm looking at this option two right here and a big old Ford sign could go on the side of that building on the in the white space there and would be free of everything I would think and would be close to the highway so from that direction I think you'd meet it but maybe Ford doesn't like it or maybe well they they are they want they are contractually we have to put a pylon sign somewhere and and rent it lease it from them forever so that's just maybe you could put the one on this side and then put the 30 foot pile on I I'm just trying to find an option that works without there's no way in heck that I can sit here tonight and approve the taller sign no way uh just from about the 40 I I won't even go over the what's our limit the 30 that's I'm stuck there cuz you can always appeal it to the city council right if they if we reject it they can and you can take it to the higher-ups and and maybe they're willing to to bend on that but from what we've been told over and over again that's just not something we can budge on or at least not something I feel I can budge on here well I'm well I'm the newest member and I see this as a great opportunity for the city um I don't I don't like the fact that I I understand that it was last minute and you didn't realize the easement for the billboard but I have a hard time with a Bill's board a billboard that doesn't employ anybody or bring business to the city blocking a business from having a sign visible uh I asked a question about a smaller sign with the 41 uh trying to find a a median somewhere we can work together and maybe move forward I have seen dealerships with large signs this is right on the highway um I guess as a new member and not had battles before on signs I don't see a huge issue with the sign if it I don't know I guess I'm I'm less less opposed to it I guess than most of the or maybe less jaded less jaded too probably you yell at less frequently but we do want to be clear that we did negotiate that easement yeah but we did not understand how they would force that I mean so you know the light poles are amazing to me that we're we have to saw them off so to give you a perspective of we're just in a difficult spot with the person it's not your fault at all it's not the city's fault it's our fault but we still would have tried to buy the land and Cobble together the land because there was no other place to go with Ford store would have gone to another city yeah so uh that's how we ended up there there was four Parcels we made them into one the billboard person had two of the parcels to be really honest you would have better visibility unique vi v visibility if you maximized that long wall you really would because we get Forest Lake folks as you're driving that get really jaded on the Billboards over and over which is why we work so hard on the the billboard the the changeable billboard and he has a I don't know if you've noticed but he has a very significant Community um um pres presents I mean he he advertises our local sports teams and our clubs and and and a lot of of our local nonprofits and so you know that that really has work but and that's down right here I think Susan right is that 11 I'm 11th I'm 11th um but for me we said no to some local folks and it's very difficult for me to turn around and say just because you're a big company and you want this and you've done this in other places sort of like Walmart CH cities you will have this building and you will like it well that's that's a little bit unfair we're not we have not done this we've never had billboard e mins that's what happened we've never done this we don't have one sign in any place that's higher than the ordinance because we've never had to and and I'm I'm not saying that I'm I'm trying to explain history I'm you are making a very very honest and very difficult um situation and trying to manage it um and and I understand that I think can you give me some history on the 30 foot ordinance on the sign I mean there's got to be buildings along the freeway Corridor that are higher than three stories high just thinking 30 feet is not that high how long is it been an ordinance that because he's not that you're right but I know there are some sizable signs on the other side of the highway for the dealerships too not to say that they're they're higher than just wondering where that that came from how long it's been I know the it's been in place a while the last sign ordinance we did was what four or five years ago anyway last sign ordinance was four or five years ago yeah and I doubt we touch the height of the signs on the freeway even that's been there that's been there longer you know that the the freeway has not been an issue you know it's uh Broadway Avenue and Lake Street with the flashing signs and everything else right um it's really nice that we're getting a new business on the freeway a nice looking business thought it might work I do I am pretty confident though that we're not at 30 they're probably grandfathered in across the highway because it's probably before you change to sign ordinance but they're they're taller than their buildings Mr chair if I could just add a little insight you asked or mentioned the truck places up here where that they in this property where they they had asked for the variant in 2021 yes the difference is is they're not on the freeway right so they're under more restrictive Lang code language where they're they wanted us for the applicants they want to have a freestanding sign along here 25 ft tall so in theory it could be seen from the freeway but the code says it could only be as tall as the building which was about 9 fo2 one story yeah and the commission recommended deny or denied it it got appealed to the council Council also denied it same but different different because it it was they're trying to claim that it could be seen from the freeway even though it would be parallel to the building you'd be zooming by at 60 or 70 miles hour you might look over and see it and then I think in this case it is different because these tall enough you'll you'll see these well maybe not a quarter mile down the road either way and and it's on the freeway does that make it right not necessarily but that was a casee where a signed variance was denied I I I think at this point we do have to have a public hearing I'd like to move forward with that part of the meeting and then we'll all come back and regroup as needed certainly so you're excusing us yes for now moment this is a public hearing it's will work just like the last one uh we ask anyone who wishes to speak to this application please come forward and do so spend a couple minutes giving your thoughts once we have heard from everyone we will uh close the public hearing so at that I'll call open the public hearing at 8:03 p.m. so anyone wish to speak to this application the crowded place tonight Ken is there anyone online no one online Mr chair is there anything to be I don't believe did you tell us that there's nothing to be read in 10 a minutes you have no correspondence there there is none no emails or comments or any thank you any pros or conss okay I'll ask again does anyone wish to speak to this application see no one come forward and no one online to speak we will close the public hearing at 8:04 p.m. so Commissioners we have some options here we can have further discussion with the applicant on signs um we can make motions we can table it whatever we would like to do um I leave it in your trusty hands if I may ask so when when are you hoping to openly that's pretty exact we get open if we say yes tonight I'm not sure what if we were to say yes to everything Happy Joy tonight and the council were to act on the 24th do you actually get a sign up in a week M chair oron me Susan remember if the commission approves the variances this is the last St okay U it's only if it's appealed that would go to the council and if I may Mr chair I thought I heard some maybe some support for this sign at the 41 or 42t height at 120 square ft instead of the 130 and 47t unless there's any consensus well first of all it seemed like the north site was better than the South site if one had to pick a location I don't want to put words in your mouth I'm just trying to guide the discussion and you guys go from here so North Side option one would you guys agree that would be the better option prer that perfect so they prefer option one I have no problem with the 41 foot sign if you come down a little and we meet in the middle with 120 by 41 I would make that motion I think they've made every reasonable effort purchase multiple sites in our city to put a dealership on the highway that will bring jobs to our city uh I believe they had issues with sign variances understandably for the billboard I think that Ford sign looks a lot better than that billboard to be honest myself uh right there it'll be somewhere in the middle I would like to see this get taken care of tonight I guess uh and I would make a motion that we approve site location one with a 41 foot billboard freestanding sign freestanding sign it's not a billboard sorry I apologize thank you freestanding um Monument sign it's not a monument sign free standing free standing and size 41 by 120 I have a motion do I have a second do I have a second heing none the motion dies which doesn't mean it's a bad motion it just means that we may not be ready for that quite yet sure you know so if if I can bring this back you know they they want they would prefer the north what do they have all the signs they can put on the building did this IDE I think that Don had brought up a yes fact on the east side they wanted to have three and I I was said they could only have two that's the the 15th Street side and that worried about 15 and there's there is one proposed not on there for the west side but on the sign on the building side that's a different visibility than the tall pylons or freestanding as you're that are Ang or facing the road versus parallel to the road and again they're back to for ising well I'm wondering can can they put one more big sign on that it would be the north side and then put a smaller pylon what was that option two then option two be a smaller pylon you know what I'm saying down here yeah put it closer to the fo 30 foot there and then on that north wall yeah this site so there's option two with the 30 foot all right so that's the side I need to see but if you look at option two the location if you scroll down on your plan here they could they could adjust that to the right a little further so it wouldn't be hidden behind that P behind that billboard if you go back to your view Ken and you can see well yeah so if they were to move it over to the other planter box or adjust the planter box to the right it could be over there that would that would potentially solve their southbound or their Northbound traffic visibility and then if they can put a forward sign on the north side of the building that solves their southbound traffic visibility in my mind so I I you know that's other thoughts am I hearing that there's more appetite here for variances to signs on the building faces than there is for the very high signs is that what I'm hear that would be my opinion yes yeah I I think if you're not exceeding the building height it would seem like you can justify that with with you know from a visibility um I I would have an easier time justifying that than than the pylon sign uh issue but you know that's a tough one too if if we're only allowing certain amount of signs and you're saying that's on each side of the building they're only allowed so many correct okay well that that'd be a whole new consideration and i' if by memory I didn't look at this in detail they I'm pretty sure maxed out all the wall signage they could oh there's some lightning that they they could put on well it's it's the degree of of variance and and I think that what I'm hearing is that there might be more appetite to Grant a significant variance for this the the wall sign facing the expressway than for the tall pylon signs um there there is room on the property to the north for leasing of space for a sign unfortunately it's not on your property but as you you travel the highway there but then M Susan thir then it's an offsite sign which becomes fits the definition of a billboard thought I hate signs does a pylon sign have to be a certain distance away from the building probably because like if looking at the north um corner and there's a a tree there marked G GD whatever that kind of tree that stands for in here uh yeah that's the tree there I mean you replace that tree with the 30 foot pylon sign then you're not on the building you're off the building you're a pylon yet if you look at your view channels and your Heights you're you're you're getting visib well you going have to look again see if you're getting visibility coming from the north look yeah you are you're seeing that side of the building we saw that you so you solve your your your southbound traffic view now go to your Northbound traffic View and again you you could do the same possibly with either of those two trees on that corner I don't know which probably the tree to the right because you've got a window up there maybe that you don't want to and and put a pylon so now you've got your Northbound but if you're saying two separate signs that would be yeah I'm sorry again that's two separate signs so we got a lot of sign rules yes we do um took you a while to get there well no i' i' you know and then maybe it's just one of them on the building and and one of them's a pylon next adjacent to the building like that and it seems like we have a lot of rules but when you you know travel around we've all seen cities that are sign sign sign sign sign and you don't see anything else oh yeah and we have never gone to [Music] the what a lot of quote Scenic or whatever cities no sides so we've always tried to split the middle and and be reasonable both from a a visibility for businesses and the Aesthetics for the community Mr chair yes sir we haven't heard anything from Mr LaRon I don't know if he had any thoughts or comments he's going to drop the bombshell soon but I think he's still formulating his plan the side that faces the highway of the building I know they're only allowed to have one side you know one sign or whatever but why they couldn't put that like you say we we're kind of fighting between that having that Ford sign on the side of the building you're going to see it as your Northbound and you'll see it from your southbound too but it won't be like a straight shot when you're North and South but the sign is lit as well correct at night or in the evening so I'm I'm a little mixed up so I first I want to say I think the city has been very reasonable with us so we have no complaints about it we don't have any particular complaints about your sign ordinances either so we're just in the spot when you're I like the idea of the of the two billboard signs but I knew that wasn't going past past that only because you could see from both sides are you talking about the the south facing north west facing throw up your Northbound well we have the signage on the west we have signs on the west so now if you look at it where it says Forest Lake on the building uhhuh you can't put anything of Ford nature on the side next to Forest Lake we well on the other corner like a like a for just even out here in the middle yeah on the somewhere along on the facing of the building out on the older facing of the building I think it's on the north end of the building right either is that is there another sign there or what is that way down on the other end so down here yeah that might be the Ford logo okay no we Ford does have we can ask them they have specific back to my beginning comments they are very very specific on their image it's a national sometimes it's a global program for them and so they they are you know you guys are the easiest people to deal with compared to the Ford sign people so if that helps you at all and I hope the Ford people areen watching we've never been told that I know that so I figured I'd at least give you something to remember as well so they prefer no signs no they want they want their pylon sign they want specific height depth everything on the building they measure it out they and you know we want a Ford Store and so uh we we don't really fight him on that let me how tall is your building 30 ft which is how tall the city allows now I was just look you know I'm I'm back to that little triangle that's about you got your four bays and then you go a little bit further north yeah and you got that area in here no come down and the and now you're too far south um go west where the parking lot lot ends on this West Side here go up go up go up go up go up right about there you know we get in this whole Zone where you got a lot can you put that Pyon up against the building we looked really hard at that so uh fire trucks know the drive aisle would be too small and we and we have a car wash on that corner you come in and that's where they exit so no that it won't we wanted to it won't go there we actually were trying to inch it out because we pulled all the material in there I mean we really thought we were putting the sign there and Sor you know you live and learn this one we're learning so uh it will not fit between the sight line easement and the building it won't fit up there in the corner we we desperately tried to figure that out I mean there are cities that have much stricter sign rules than us really bad and there are Ford dealerships and other dealerships and they get by with whatever Dig It by with there there's Maplewood where we're in is strict yeah Maplewood when you I mean Ken was there but the part my billboard sight line easement that got us it's not it's not Forest Lakes uh we and hopefully we never indicated that to you we've never thought you're unreasonable I'm I'm not suggesting that but just saying Ford Ford should be able to can I can I say one thing about Ford so Ford's great company they haven't had an open Point Ford that's not an old Ford building that came in from the way in the past for 30 years that's what we're dealing with here they all those Ford stores are that's the domestic Legacy brand so they're either remodeled rebuilt and they're Mo when that happens then they go in for sign variances most of the Ford stores that you're seeing are old buildings and they're under old sign ordinances and a lot of them have much bigger signs we get that this is they they for told us it's been 30 years since they've had an open what they call a open point where they are coming in with a brand new building which we build uh which we're happy to do it but that's that's kind of what we're dealing with here and so they have a lot of new people on this too saying this is what we want this is going to be our you know our us newest store from groundup they're all going to come out here that's part of what we're dealing with too you know they're all going to come to force Lake and have a they want to have a big grand opening and they want to stand in front of that pylon sign and get a picture and do one of these if they stand in front of it with you guys if they stand in front of it far and then the pictures taken from far enough way to get the whole freaking sign yeah we'll put them in a bucket truck put there in a bucket truck but being a a little bit tongue and cheek but that is really what they're very excited about it they've come already many multiple times and it's it's exciting for them you had a Ford Store here and the gentleman uh ended up having some legal trouble and they and they closed it and they for kind of forgot about Forest Lake and now now it's a Jeep dealer I believe it's a Jeep dealer well we're back and we're excited we think it would be a great great City to be a partner with so I mean we the 41 foot we would love that option I think the signs on the faces of the building we would be wide open to that as well but I think you're going to keep running into sign maximum ordinances and and we'll run into a little bit of the the the Ford uh issue so but I I I think that there is more appetite here to approve a variance on that freeway facing side of the building then there is a big all right that's great direction for me and Brian so you're saying we could come back and say we propose a sign on that on the west facing Northern Corner okay can you pull that up and then a 30 foot sign uh as well so that would be blocked from one side so someplace in here Commissioners yeah can you where you cir okay I see that you got that Bri I'm I'm clear on that which look we're grateful for that OPP to one pylon North or South wherever they want to put it I would think they would want it visible from the northbound lane because that's where traffic is probably more likely to come from and then they know to exit at the next ramp or whatever but whatever that's there does that make sense it does and and we're very uh uh we'll be energetic to try and get back here with that option so heing that hearing that um Ken I was going to say if well if it's going to be a table or deny then that's one thing and then if you're giving them Direction and it involves another variance so we won't charge again but we're starting over with the 60 days and the whole review process I don't think think you'll make the grand opening no no we can we can deal with that with Fort okay they're not gonna so believe me they want to sell us a bunch of trucks so yeah they'll they'll give us some leeway for for that so just to make sure I'm clear and I guess the commission for the applicants look at wall signage here and that might be a variance and then the the one pylon here or the one pylon up here wherever the yeah we'll have to find a spot where a 30 foot pylon will be seen from the other direction and I don't know if we can but we're going to try and we'll work with but that option one certainly shows it from the other direction and you got to remove those light poles anyways probably well the 30 foot though the 30 foot from North coming south does not does not I thinking from South driving north the one he shows up on option one right now yeah that sou drive now you moved it now you go back but see this is 30t going south yeah but we know it's not going to be visible from well whatever I I we just have to look at it with I agree we give them 13 foot he gets 13 foot pylon sign and he gets the the sign on the west side of the building facing the highway bring it back and we'll consider that's what we'll consider has more chance of flying than yeah well so then we'd be asking for a variance for the an extra building building we wouldn't have to ask for a variance on the other well back to this one if I may this height would be okay but we're still on a setback variance setback I don't I don't see I don't think any of us have a setback issue no and and then the size of the sign face what is the 30 that 30 foot is the 30 it's a smaller sign yeah that's below the it's like 73 ft or something it's below the 100 so it meets the 100 so and heck we're saving you money in the long run oh listen you're not hearing me complaining about that if we can figure that out it is a it is a it's it's gum on your shoe with the so so looking at this view again it' be Sim signed similar to this and then additional wall signage right there right there is that what I'm hearing yes sir unless they chose the podium sign down on the south end of the building for some other Vis you know if it was for some reason better but one or it's a one or the other and we wouldn't seem to car either way on that yeah that's what they're saying so we're look we think that's great direction for us and uh we're going to we're going to go to work on it and we understand you didn't vote we're going to vote don't worry Mr chair I move that we table this until they come back with is it if I may is it table or do we have to deny the requests that are before you with direction to reconsider with other options if we deny according to previous City Rules they have to come back with a completely new permit right where as if we table they can come back with an amended request what she said and so my motion is table this request a second I have a motion a table I have a second a second I have a motion in a second it's a non abatable motion all those in favor sign by by saying I I I opposed extensions motion carries we look forward to seeing you thank you again again we appreciate it thank it out with the staff and we'll see you soon thank you thank you very much we appreciate thank you for your time welcome to Forest Lake thank you again happy to be here truck you know where to come my wife said no I just bought one sorry thanks guys and be safe and watch watch the weather please yeah it's coming good night night we will move on to uh item seven staff updates um get to get the next meeting off so is uh do we have um council person Roberts online tonight not I didn't see him no then Ken we'll start with you uh just quickly as the agenda says the next meeting is canceled uh three projects that are very close to getting started while the new apartment building down at Headwaters is underway the dental clinic on Centennial they just got their final thing wrapped up today with Engineers they're supposed to start working Monday they've already cleared that haven't they well they cleared but now we're doing the utilities and underground in grading and then the last thing Chase is still dinging around to figure out what they need to do to because they had to do plan revisions and get easement agreements because remember part of the parking lot was going on the neighbors are working on that there was another one we just recently where do we in the PGA Investments down by interstate they're well underway so those activities how do we sit with the uh uh new Environmental Center thank you I can see the building um they are the Environmental Center they are hopefully in the very very very final plan review comments approvals from mind to put in Headwaters Parkway they've been going back and forth of been that since about December on the plans how was our trees received uh okay uh well we got to look at the budget and yeah please do and I haven't gotten anything back from them saying yep here's what we can do or here's what we can't do and we're not going to bring that forward to the council until they have 100% agreement with mot on what they're going to build sure and they're at 98% or some and and as part of that then we'll bring the Landscaping plan to council at the same time and yeah so they keep we had a meeting with some of the county staff a week or two ago and they said yeah if we bid this by mid July we should be able to get it constructed in about three months we should have it done by October and we're not convinced that it's just going to go this smoothly because why would it CU and and they know they can't get a certificate occupancy to operate the building until they get Headwaters Park they they know we've told them any other questions for Ken or Ken you got any other comments no thank you all right Tim no good Su uh I have one request um would it be possible when you are sending out the notifications for the various neighborhood meetings to send the Planning Commission members notice of those meetings also I happen to be doing the planting of the gardens up on the up on the deck um and noticed the sign on the door that said neighborhood meeting and I'm asked what it was about um we don't typically know that those are happening and quite frankly I got a lot of information that night that helped me out so into a quorum problem yeah you might actually you're noticing those neighborhood meetings yeah that's notice all you got to do is say that they're may be a quum of pling maybe a quum AUM may just like the city does when they have some event like arts in the park or something there may be a quarm right okay yeah we could it's easy enough to do that would be very very helpful okay all right Mr LaRon no sir done no and nothing from me so on that note I look for a motion to adjourn so move I have a motion I have a second second it's an undebatable motion all those in favor signal by saying I I I opposed extensions motion carries thank you for your service have a wonderful summer and a great Fourth of July weekend and hopefully we see you all back here with all your fingers toes and eyes truth [Music]