[Music] good evening and welcome to the Planning Commission meeting today is October 16th 2024 we will I will call the meeting to order at 6: p.m. and we will start with the Pledge of Allegiance I of the States of America and to the for it stands Nation God indivisible andice for all the next item is the approval of the meeting agenda and I will make the motion to approve the meeting agenda with the exception that we are going to remove number seven and review that at a different date is there a second this Robin this Robin all second okay it's been seconded I'll call for the vote Scott I Robin I Bethany I and Lynn I next is uh the approval of the September 18th 2024 Planning Commission meeting minutes is there a motion all motion to approve Rob now second okay approve or motion and second I'll call for the vote Scott I Robin I Bethany I and Lynn I next is public open form is there anybody in the audience that wishes to address a Planning Commission or anybody online if not we will move on to number six a presentation and discussion on a non-binding concept review for Zoom Zone and I will ask Mark and William to come to the front table give your name address and make sure you speak into the microphone so everybody can hear you for your presentation it's all yours uh Madam chair I'm Mark gther with Fenway Land Company we're out of Hugo Minnesota so and and presentation up if you want to give that and then we'll move on to discussion and questions okay and if you could pull your microphone just a little bit closer so we all hear you is that a little better Perfect all right well we put together I appreciate uh you know everybody's time and our opportunity to present uh the concept plan for this parcel off of horn bursby we've uh taken some time with our client uh Zoom Zone and uh looked at multiple Parcels around the area and and and appreciate the help with staff as well as we've been going through and uh trying to find a location that's going to work well for all this and um I think what we found here is one that that we think uh is ideal for it I know that in your current zoning it doesn't there's no use for cart tracking so we for a cart track so we had to uh look at a site that we think is going to be the best for that um so with that we uh We've looked at the site right here on Horns and decided that we can do this with multiple uses um I also work with clients that are uh looking for warehouse property Office Buildings and such um and with zoom Zone they only needed that you know five acres or so plus or minus so dividing the site up worked very well in your general business area so how we laid it out was into three lots sorry if I can so the front half there's let me kind of step back on the property there is considerable Bond of wet lenss on this property that we had to work around in our concept design uh there is a small parcel up front right along the road that we feel we can do like an office SL Warehouse uh building for some other potential clients and then in the middle parcel we're looking at the opportunity to do a warehouse with outdoor storage uh that is something that uh currently have a couple other clients that have some interest in it and then Zoom Zone would be on the easterly portion of the property uh backing up to the wetlands and more of the uh race Creek uh Conservation Area yeah so as I mentioned you know the the front parcel lot a is is got only about a little under 3 acres buildable um and that would be designed for a future user for office uh garage condos or or some other potential commercial development and then Lot B would be for you know it's a larger parcel that we can end up uh we're looking at for a potential Warehouse with some additional outdoor storage and then Zoom Zone would be on the like I said the easterly portion so um in in our narrative we put together a little presentation in terms of we talked about the use of it carting is is becoming a sport uh that is growing now Across the Nation this is a uh a professional designed track system actually the company is out of Europe that actually does the designing for this uh for these tracks um it everything is done with electric carts now so you know the noise uh I'll address the noise and stuff here in a little bit but you don't have the noise that you used to have with the gas carts and so forth plus they can have consistent running time with uh the change in batteries and their charging systems and so forth so they they've created some really unique racetracks across the country and in Europe and um be looking to design this one for this site as well so the track that we have on the concept was not the final design it's just concept to get the planning commission's feedback in terms of the use and making sure that um you know from a text Amendment we can you know the use would be allowed and if that's the case then we can move forward with a professional design by cart 360 to design the final track design the building on here is also conceptual um let me see probably go to the next slide I talk a little bit about the carts here as well so they do purchase you know they don't build the carts they they buy the carts here from a professional blue shock company uh also operated under battery was as I mentioned as well go to the next slide um the facility on on the concept plan is is quite small it'll probably be larger than that in the end because of the uses indoor so they need to have have area to maintain the carts um and store the carts as well as a covered area to to start cars you know in a race formation and and release them out onto the track and then internally they're going to have other simulators uh going on in inside the building to practice on and and and use those simulators on a year round event year round time frame so those simulators are very close to what they're using on the carts as well and they're more of the professional simulators that you see uh we talked uh want to mention a little bit of ours of operation what they're proposing is more of an evening runtime uh during the summer this is seasonal obviously it's weather weather permitting um so they're looking at an evening runtime and then on weekends um and then there staffing needs um you know typically about three people and maybe a couple part-time people and the um they also want to do some events from time to time so one of the things is is they'll have race days they'll have some tournaments of Etc and they'll probably in those tournaments some competitors may bring their own carts some of those are gas powered so there will be some days typically on weekends that they may have a uh some of the gas powered carts running on the track as well and then the the safety features as well that they put in here for barriers and so forth these carts can only I don't remember what the speed exactly is but it it's like 25 or something like that I don't there is a top speed on the carts um and they do go through just kind of a um you know a lesson ahead of time in terms of operation and safety protocol and so forth in terms of how they're supposed to be operating the carts and then watching on the course so that if somebody is a little out of control they can pull them so um but overall they they do have a they have a very good safety Rector safety record with their professional design and then noise and light pollution you know one of the things that we were considering too is didn't want to get close to neighborhoods want to be careful in terms with the evening operations on light so I think the general business district really allows for that uh being backing up to the conservation and being around any other General business uses is a good location for you know the zoom Zone activities so it's pretty straightforward and you know hopefully I got you got some questions that you want to ask any questions I have a few but I'll let you guys go first go ahead okay and I'm Sue Wagman I'm on the city council I'm just the liais on and that's why I'm not voting with them tonight um so what is the difference between an indoor carting track and outdoor I mean besides the [Music] obvious I mean can they go I'm I've raced on an door one but not well I guess I've raced on an outdoor one too um but you can't it's supposed to be bigger the outdoor ones are typically bigger and I thought you could go faster but you say is the top speed 25 mil hour yeah I just have to confirm that but there is a top speed on them and I believe that's what they mentioned to me was around 25 so but yeah the track Outdoors typically can be longer because you don't have to put it inside a contained building so uh they they can get longer runs um and then regarding the noise thing cuz I did look around the area and there isn't any Like Houses except on the other side so behind that um area where the on the East there's like a wetland area but then there's a neighborhood and that's Forest Lake it's not Columbus cuz that's I think the Border um but is that a concern for us do we have to take into consideration our neighboring Community for noise do we have to notify them or get their input or anything they close enough you know it would probably be the neighborly thing to do but we're not required to do that on this we are required to do it if there's land use changes or comp plan changes but that's the only time we're required to seek their comments okay um and then why um I'm just trying to think if your is there other outdoor ones around this area I mean I just don't know the only ones I know of are like in I think there might be one in Blaine and you know there there there might have been years ago but uh there isn't anything in this area that we're aware of other than a few uh you know smaller scale you know kind of kid tracks you got the Big Kahuna in Spicer I I think the closest one is out in Coco West West okay of the Cities okay um I I was just wondering if we could go like I'd like to go to one just to kind of listen and see how loud they are I don't mind I'm from a racing family so we like racing and noise is a good thing but not for everybody not if I'm not racing I don't like it yeah and and when they're electric obviously they're not making the noise that the gas wantes do so um I believe that they quoted us around 65 DB Max uh which is low and then obviously when you move away further distance wise those decibels drop do you know Eleanor do you know what our limit is for decb um so we can't regulate noise outside of the mpca regulations um it's those are the state regulations and believe they put it on their their decb which is 65 um wait yeah I've got the electric at 65 and the gas at 108 DB yes both are below for that General District okay so it would just get to the Limit MH and there is a park in Lake oakair outside of oakair and it's not that noisy really okay wait what's the limit I do not know off the top of my head but I do remember checking that both of them are below especially with the um they measure also with ambient noise and with the proximity to other Trucking areas and the freeway that limit goes up um and they are well below that mm okay and then I think my last question at least for now that I can think of is where is the um truck wash that we were looking at is that just like north of it it's not the direct Northern a lot but one above one above okay all right thank you so then I'm going to bring up my famous uh traffic study I mean just a foresight of do we need to widen Hornsby but I can now now we're adding more traffic on the Hornsby on top of the truck car wash and I'm just just afraid that turn lane onto uh 9723 is not going to be long enough it's going to have to be extended backwards cuz now you're going to have a lot more traffic on Hornsby so I don't know if we need to have a traffic study done cuz the one from loves was before loves and loves even had to take out parking spots to get traffic in so I think we've added a business since then so I think it might be time to do another traffic study on Hornsby comments on traffic nothing we can definitely consider that you know that that can be looked into it might be helpful too to get some projections on what your traffic patterns are I'm assuming during the week it's going to be late evening and on the weekends I don't know it's how may be spread out a little bit more it'll be interesting to see what that pattern is too so we can see if what's there has the potential to handle it but if it's going to be like everything's released all at once then there could be a few issues yeah I just read the part where if they have a tournament or a race or whatever the parking lot can accommodate the trucks with the trailers and so now that's more yeah than just cars and I do I do expect this to be a busy place because I know a lot of people that are would look forward to having yeah the go-kart so I think further into this we will have to take a pretty good look at we don't have parking regulations for a go-kart track and so taking a pretty good look into what that parking situation is going to look like because this is a um preliminary idea and if we need to expand that parking we can do that yeah yeah and and that so I had a question about that parking that you alluded to um you know it says oh by the way it's 49 mph according to your literature that the go-karts top speed is not 25 so uh quite a bit more yeah well it's Racing for crying out loud you want 49 not 25 so yeah it's fun i''d be pretty boring at 25 to be honest with you wouldn't it so that's a but so we have these two-day events and and so maybe you can walk us through what a typical two-day event would be at a carting location people I'm assuming are bringing their own carts in especially the gas powered ones to participate in this event um if it's a two-day event are they keeping their um trucks and trailers and and and carts at the parking lot at that location or they typically pack it all up go home come back the next day are they looking for hotels just how does that work are they camping out in the parking lot of the track itself um council member yeah these are all good questions that not yet thank you me yeah not yet sorry plenty commissioner fine yeah good catch um but yeah I good questions I'd have to verify with my client and and have them really um give me some more detail according to that um I don't have exact answers on their events and how they would operate them but we can definitely get those uh questions answered as as we continue to move forward yeah cuz I would guess we'd be permitting some of that stuff as well so and I guess I mean traffic wise I'm looking at the people that are trying to come out of loves and turn left and if you've got more more traffic coming in you already sit there and wait and it could be really we might need to do something creative with that because that could really Jam things up so yeah just some things to look at because I know I I have to wait a lot longer to get out on to Lake Drive from my street since there's a lot of TR going up and down because of an asphalt plant so I wait longer than I used to and I can see people coming out of loves and they'll quit going to loves if they can't get out with all the traffic coming in that's you know it's traffic going out but to me it's a traffic that's going to turn and come down Hornsby and the people that are trying to get out of loves and take a left are going to be sitting there longer so just something to you know kind of think about any other discussion my only my only thing that I was concerned about and that is taking this parcel and breaking it into three yet trying to keep it as one uh so that you can meet the building requirements from what I was reading in here that you want to you want to do this as one whole unit yet you're going to make it three separate units so commissioner yeah these would be platted as three separate Lots okay so it is not one it's three separate Lots but as we're talking with staff a PUD would probably be recommended um cuz on each individual lot the biggest thing is the building size and and meeting um the um you know the city code of 7% % I believe yep so all of them meet that except for Zoom Zone at this point now once we get into the final design and and their exact building size we may meet that okay uh we just haven't fully determined that but we just wanted to run that by all of you to see if you're open to just you know if they're undersized if you know maybe they're 4% or 5% but the rest of the site makes up up for it okay would these individual Lots be able to be sold individually later that is correct okay so then that would then take and put if Zoom Zone doesn't reach 7% by itself if it were sold off it would not meet then the 7% requirement if they only had 5% and you were using some of the other two lots as coverage I think he's saying that the rest of the are you saying that like the track and stuff would no the entire all of all three lots we're going to be well above that 7% got it so that's how we're looking at it as a combined for the three lots to meet the you know above the 7% although the one individual lot Zoom Zone would not yeah and that and that's my that is my one concern is that if that gets sold off separately it now no longer conforms to the 7% you follow what I'm saying yes I do okay so here's what I'm going to I'm just going to remind you that we did a Housing Development down Kettle River where they broke off into lots and some of the Lots weren't 5 Acres but a coup you know a couple of them across the street were a little bit more so so all in all as one big development they had enough but each one of those lots is going to be sold to a homeowner and some of them are not going a couple of them are not going to meet the 5 acre minimum but we allowed that but we allowed it because the overall development did meet 5 Acres if you added it all together okay okay that makes sense to me I just want to clarify because I understand what you're saying and that's in our code or our ordinance that it's lot size averaging that we're allowed to do that but I don't know that it's in the code that we're allowed to lot size average or average the 7% so maybe that's something I don't know Elanor or Dean yeah Dean do you care to speak on this a little bit I think you understand pods a bit better than I do I think I'm unmuted um in a in a planned unit development we have Provisions that allow us to wave uh dimensional criteria in this case it would be like uh 7% I I think what the applicant is suggesting is that they're acquiring this entire site as land Developers phase one is the only thing that's spoken for they've given you some Concepts that illustrate how the other sites might be developed uh this particular use uh is phase one it will not meet that 7% standard by itself so in the concept that Lynn mentioned about lot averaging um it the ordinance specifically describes that within the rural residential district we don't have a separate standard in the commercial area but through a a planned unit development review you would have the same opportunity to evaluate whether or not a particular standard on one lot versus on all three uh meets the intent of the ordinance you have a lot of latitude to do that um the one thing that we caution everyone that um does come in and look for uh plan unit development approach to the development we like to emphasize that we want to see some Community benefit uh in exchange for that action by the city to wave some of the rules and and so that's just something the developer needs to do and that can be compensation on the basis of extraordinary uh site preservation techniques that's referenced in the zoning or ordinance it can be extraordinary architectural features or design um and at this time they're not really capable of making commitments on all of the property it's all in relation to this initial development if you will there's no guarantee if the developer walked that this averaging concept would happen um but being in the land development business and acquiring the entire site I I think we all understand it would be certainly their intention uh to develop the other purses that's the business they're in and so you have to make that decision you have that discretion uh under the plan unit development procedure in the ordinance and sometimes there aren't any guarantees I I'll go back to a question maybe it was Robin maybe it was Scott that asked about um being capable of developing the others in in this instance because the uh racetrack is furthest away from Hornsby the entire public street is going to be built which then provides that access to the other two Parcels that's an investment against the entire site that again any developer is going to want to pursue so they they have the reason to uh initiate additional development and complete what they're asking for your consideration on this averaging of the 7% feature did that answer answer yes thank you thank you could could I also just reflect on one other uh question that came up earlier and that's noise and elanar U mentioned it's uh we follow State Standards the state implements uh Federal rules there is no jurisdiction for local units of government anywhere in this country uh to change those rules we have to enforce those that are in place we can't wave them and so on this particular use uh all noise standards are regulated in terms of daytime standards and nighttime standards and I didn't look them up but I'll I'll I'll just say generally I'm I'm thinking the daytime standard might be 75 DB and the nighttime is 65 and so if you start this project um from the start with vehicles that are exceeding any either of those levels that becomes a restriction that we have to look at and that might mean um fencing it might mean um additional Landscaping um a variety of things that soften uh the amount of noise that goes when they do a noise uh test in the beginning of projects they look at receptors that are going to have have that problem and so they go to the nearest house and if it's set back 1,000 ft the noise levels diminish dramatically with different uh distance and so we won't know any of that until we have the specifics but if you had electric vehicles that are running at 65 DB they probably would meet both daytime and nighttime but if you permit the gas powered uh and in particular this becomes an evening activity they may not be able to meet U Federal standards but uh if they've developed facilities in other areas they're going to know how to overcome those issues but that's that's a matter of uh requirements that we're going to have to impose if this goes on to full detailed review Thanks stean any other questions well I was just going to ask Dean if you've had any experience in any other cities um uh development like this with a go-kart outdoor go-kart pardon me I've got a second get rid of this animalg what did he say his dog's barking two kids and a dog okay my attention that's a TV show I I I have not I have been to facilities uh long ago when my children um love facilities like this um they were a a dying phenomenon for the most part and I'm not familiar with any new ones um I won't say I was surprised to see this but uh you know they used to have Gasoline Alley on 65 in Blain that's where I took my kids and um things have changed the fact that you are uh operating a facility uh out outside of special tournament features which maybe we can and maybe we can't approve um it's likely the noise is going to meet the standards if not uh nighttime standards begin at 7 o'clock it might be a situation where you say the gas powerered vehicles can only operate um in uh in the daytime hours uh we we don't know but a noise expert is going to come in they're going to locate the receptor um and Elanor was uh correct indicating that they take a look at background noise in terms of locations uh we're already competing for noise issues because of the freeway and in that regard it's it may be the best location to have something that might be a little bit noisy uh rather than up on Kett River Boulevard where you you don't have any other noise and people are going to be potentially impacted but at the same time they take all of this background noise uh in consideration and then they look at the receptors uh whether it's businesses or residents and what their distance is and and they make assumptions about what those noise levels will be if you're anticipating future development which we have no control of across the border in Forest Lake and you have concern about that then you may look at additional um noise barriers that are not uncommon with any facility um you know those of you that have been to automobile RAC tracks you know you know how noisy they can get uh and they operate within the factors that are controlled in a license uh and the noise standards that become in place and so we won't know those are details that just can't be determined at this stage of the development okay thank you okay if there's no other questions thank you for coming we appreciate you presenting this to us and um I'm excited well thank my 73y old wife is looking forward to getting to R yes do we have to give direction or what do we do at this meeting would be a public hearing well they'll have to sit down and apply for their permits and the staff will have to get everything together for us yep so there would if we are okay with considering this as a text Amendment we can pursue those procedures and start getting some some more details yeah um as of now it seems like we're good to at least there's not a bunch of hard back don't spend another Cent we're not going to let it go through so we can we can begin some procedures to to figure out some of those questions move forward and move forward on that cool perfect if we're in agreement y yes Mr Mayor would you come up to the table please state your name and address and P the microphone right up this is Jesse prer 8220 Lake Drive so far we've heard about the RAC track which is probably a good use since that property is half Wetland but what about the other two businesses for proposed commercial building and whatever this whole thing is here what do you expect that to be and what can the city expect from that yeah Mr Mayor we um you know as as presented we don't have end users for those lots right now but that is how we're going to Market them for those uses okay uh this is a general business district that allows those uses um so no other Amendment would be required on those but that ideally as we envision this site that's how we see it being developed all right but when once we have an end user each one of those lots will actually submit another separate application and site plan for their use all right and what happens to the existing buildings we expect those to go away the existing buildings will be tore down and removed yep bless you so so we don't know what's going to happen exactly but you do have somebody interested in doing the the go-kart deal yeah we our client with zoom zone is ready to go and move forward based off of feedback from the Planning Commission here and and uh Council next week so once we have all the feedback then we can determine our next steps I'll put together something so any questions anybody regarding the rest of it that's as I saw this I thought well we're just talking about the track we're not talking about the rest of it but if they put up a nice building on two locations that would take care of that that whole piece of property and What's the total 30 Acres or 40 roughly I got to pull up the 20 acres I believe yeah around 20 around 20 and I can't remember how many wet it was five or six yeah so 20 acres a little over 10 is dedicated to the racetrack so just a little over half is dedicated to the racetrack and then the two that will have buildings on it to achieve our 7% would just be under 10 I think one's five something and three something y so you're proposing to buy the whole yeah whatever it is 2 correct we're we're planning to buy the whole thing we would own it develop it and then um look for the end users for those last two parcels and going back to the noise issue there's one house across Hornsby Street with the red barns M and the vegetable Growers and then there's that white squarehouse on the corner it's like 10 acres on West Side of horns but they are in a commercial District so unless the go-karts are 150 DB we should be all right with that I'm think so Mr Mayor the house that's across the street is that the one that's connected to the Truck Line no no that's farther to the north to the north okay and that's nearly gone I guess I heard yeah because I know that residence they're only going to be there for was it going to be a year and they're they're gone already oh they're gone already okay and they're ripping all the old doors and stuff off I heard so anyway so for a little bit of History everybody before the freeway was there Hornsby Street went over to Gander Mountain that was the main drag so we' bicycle from my mother's house and play baseball at the little house here and then we would pedal up Hornsby Street and buy cigarettes and smok them before we got home so we didn't and so I guess this is Improvement for prob all of that so anyway so anyway so these guys are ready to go possibly M and Y you can Market the rest of it and we could have some good development on that end that end Hornsby That's all I have thank you madam chair so thank you Mr Mayor Madam chair just one thing to add well you know I I've got your notes and from some of your questions uh we'll make sure we uh get answers and address that with the council as well next week so we get get those answers and we'll add some distances from the track to Horn be and and back to the other but I believe it was like it's over 800 ft from the road so from a decibel standpoint noise standpoint it's going to drop dramatically yeah just looking on the map like I just kind of zoomed in and looked at the distance from like you know and then put it on my neighborhood and it'd be like you know all the way down my street which is it's a pretty decent distance it seems like okay Mark unless I'm mistaken this would have to come back to the Planning Commission again to answer these questions before it goes to the city council yeah I I'll just await your direction in terms of what you you know the process that you want us to go through on the concept the idea of the concept was to get as much feedback from the Planning Commission its Council as possible so we can make a determination if we're going to able to move forward okay perfect but our our normal process would be this is just a non-binding concept hearing to give you that feedback so you can come back to the plan commission to address their questions get their blessings approval and recommendation and then it could go to city council okay thank you okay thank you for coming thank you thank you uh planning commissioner report does anybody have anything I do not City administrator and I have nothing to add zoning nothing at this time nothing well then I will look for a motion to adjuring the meeting this is Bethany so moved you did she was looking at me Scott I second okay call for the vote Scott ey Robin I Bethany I Lyn I meeting atted at 6:44 I didn't make any motions yet [Music]