[Music] 7 o' we'll call the meeting to order Ken would you take the rooll please yes Mr chair commissioner Wagner here commissioner Steeler here commissioner young here commissioner stender here chair Gerard here thank you ask if you're able to please stand and join us for the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for it stands one nation God indivisible withy andice for all before I ask for approval of the agenda I'd like to introduce our new city administrator Mark stats I believe he's going to say a couple words to the commission and then we'll move on thank you Mr chair I just wanted to um appear tonight and and kind of get a lay of the land I want to make sure I uh attend each of our boards and commissions um at least once here in the first few months so I don't go you know three years and someone ask me have you ever been to the Planning Commission I say well no I actually haven't so I want to make sure that um you know I get a chance to see you guys in action and see our staff in action and um just get a a feel for how we do things around here and um so that's my my goal tonight is just to be a fly on the wall and let our staff do their their wonderful work and um see a lot of you do the same so um please be uh be assured that I'm a resource if you ever have a a question or anything that you want to chat with me about I'm my door is open and I welcome you to give me a call or just stop on by right thank you and we'll asking if you's any more to add at the end if we have any questions for them so with that chair is looking for a motion to approve the agenda as presented or with changes Mr chair I would move to approve the agenda however pulling item 6B from the consent agenda please all right I have a motion to approve the agenda with 6B pulled do I have a second a second I have a motion and a second it's a non- debatable motion all those in favor signify by saying I I I opposed extensions motion carries we'll have our open form if anyone would wish to speak to any of the agenda items tonight or anything in general we welcome you to come up to the podium state your name and address for the record uh spend a couple minutes giving you your thoughts so as anyone wish to speak to at The Forum tonight and do we have anyone on line that's looking to speak we no longer provide online participation all right see no one come forward we'll close the open for form so the chair is looking for a motion to approve consent agenda item 6A approval of minut minutes from the regular meeting of February 26 2025 so moved I have a motion or I have a second second it I got any discussion I got a motion in a second any discussion on a motion hearing none all those in fig all those in favor signy by saying I I I opposed abstentions one abstention we'll move on to consent agenda item 6B site plan review Quick Trick parking lot expansion 4868 208 Street North resolution number 031 D12 D 25-01 case file number pz2 41269 uh Susan you ask us to pull this go ahead uh I've got a couple of questions one of them is on the landscape irrigation um even if one puts in natives or zeroscape for the first two years at least they need to be watered before that they will be sustainable so I would ask that in the resolution and I thought I had it marked um uh requirement 177e that it have a period after the word Will Survive and thde period deleting the new Landscaping plan to so that you can not have irrigation um I I think that if you look at some of the landscaping materials that are there there have been granted they're fairly old but there have been some that have not survived so that is that's my first question and my second question is um may I assume that quick trip owns both of the lots that that are now going to be part of of the Quick Trip um you know that the lot line comes down where the new parking will start so does Quick Trip own both those lots uh yes and they' have in fact combined the two into one parcel okay then my my question regarding that is um how will that affect the ability of the second piece of the the parcel to be used um our long range PL show a backage road along um along that street and I forget what the name of it is um 208 208 um that eventually there'll be a backage road along there and I'm not sure that the city's long range plan would have that half of a lot just be vacant and weed and open for dumping so i' I'd like to know what what the vision is for the other half of that lot please Mr chair members of the commission as my understanding from talking to the representative from Quick Trip who is here to answer questions as well as well as they have no plans for it right now they just want to leave it undisturbed their focus was to get the parking and the additional access in place staff thoughts about the irrigation please uh I understand the concern we can we can certainly tweak the resolution of the language I don't have major heartburn about it we are trying to emphasize less irrigation more natural but native but yes we got to make sure they grow also other questions no sir other Commissioners any questions no I take I take that back Ken will they be able to use a portion of the parking lot right now um there are some semis on 208 that are parked there um there folks that that have that use that on occasion for parking um how are they going to make sure that folks will be able to get in and out of this new entrance exit for the the the parking and are they and final question are they going to put an entrance toward the back of the building to be the the second part no okay it's strictly for allowing vehicles to go around the building uh I just want to make sure I understand there's people or drivers that leave their vehicles parked out here on 2008 M well one would hope if they see a new driveway that they won't block the driveway when they Park their vehicles that that would become a police enforcement matter if if they in fact do that thank you any other questions hearing none chair is looking for a motion to approve or deny this site plan review and if you're looking for a if we are making a recommendation here it would happen to be on page 14 if you'd like to know where it's at we need can you need two separate motions for the site plan and then the resolution no the the members of the commission the motion is to recommend approval of the resolution and so that it just be a change to condition 17 and in the in the conditions which are the same in the resolution Mr chair I would move approval of the staff recommendation um approving resolution 0-3 d03 -12- 25-01 for the approval of the site and design plans for the proposed revisions to the previously approved site plans for the quick trip um facility with a change to item 17 e um to stop at the word Thrive to to read Irrigation in the landscape areas will need irrigation to help ensure plantings Will Survive and Thrive period I have a motion do I have a second I'll second I have a motion in a second any discussion on a motion any k no I thought any discussion hearing none all those in favor signif saying I I I opposed abstentions motion carries unanimously whoever's here from Quick Trip congratulations on your project can I ask a question Nick you come up to the mic can you give your name and uh my name is Nick new I work for quit trip lross Wisconsin 1606 Oak Street um just so I understand you guys are now asking for irrigation when the original request is to put in Native plannings so I paid for a designer to design this for native plantings and to avoid irrigation and now you're telling me I have to go back and do it at different I I'm just making sure I understand what you're saying yes sir and since it's it's mine may I respond in order for those plantings to exist um even if you do Native plantings they need to be watered in at least the first two years in addition because of the the salt and the conditions next to Pavement where it gets really hot even native plants in in hot summers if we have a dry summer will die and if you take a look at some of the plantings that have been in place and granted for several years um they have not survived well so yes for us to make sure that your plantings Will Survive we do need irrigation can I make a suggestion then you shouldn't ask me to pay a landscape designer to design something that you asked for and then tell me at the end that I can't use it may I yeah sure sir you you would have needed a landscape designer in any case um whether there is irrigation or not correct but now I have to pay for it again no sir your your native plants will Thrive better if you have irrigation there and once the native plants are fully established you may not have to use that irrigation after the first two years but unless there is a commitment to have somebody water them every other day for their first two years so is there a limit or I have to do I have to irrigate the entire lot where do you have planting sir um pretty much the entire lot and then there'll be grass and the rest of it so the grass seed you don't want watered Mr chair if I may yeah I think Nick and I can work out where irrigation will need to be I don't foresee it on the far East part just where the new plantings are okay but you and I can work that out all right anything else anything else sir no I just no I'm good thank you we'll move to item seven concept plan review for Hidden Creek South case File number pz25 d133 Ken are you or Abby which I'll I'll take this thank you Mr chair before you this evening is a concept plan for future phases of the Hidden Creek subdivision development uh we're calling it Hidden Creek South it's phases 4 through eight the map on the screen is the area these two Parcels are the primary area the Hidden Creek development phases one two and three are up to the north here Headwaters Parkway running through the middle of the area The Proposal then the concept plan would create lots for 173 single family homes on a mix of 50 foot wide and 65 foot wide Lots the applicant design team also included what we call ghost plats for the adjoining three Parcels to the East and to the South to show how there could be interconnection between what's being talked about this evening and future planting in those areas the ghost plants are really not part of the discussion but it's good to know that hopefully things will line up and you don't have streets Dead ending that don't go and connect to each other but again the focus is this plan primarily this evening uh again it's the same development team that's done the Hidden Creek project so far same proposed Builder Capstone homes would be building the homes in here at least at this point for review of the commission concept plan review is as quoted at the bottom of the report and from the code is to really provide comments and feedback to the applicant and the development team uh to the extent to which the proposed subdivision generally conforms to City standards or not and concept review does not convey any legal development rights to the applicant it's really a chance to give preliminary feedback to the applicant from the commission and then eventually the city council so this site is within the headwaters Masters Headwater Headwaters Master PUD again another phase of that the entire PUD was over 620 Acres this is getting out towards the west and south end of that area page 35 a report which is page two of this report outlines the lot sizes that were approved in Headwaters PUD with a lot area of 7,000 square fet lot widths of 65 ft this proposal has lots the the blue lots are the smaller proposed Lots here 50 foot wide ranging from 6,300 square feet to maybe 8,000 square feet again that was somewhat of an estimate the uh red Lots with the red structures are the 65t wide Lots consistent with the rest of Hidden Creek and they would range in size from 7500 to over 15,000 square feet depending on the particular lot so the one key difference in this phase as proposed is the introduction or proposal to have these smaller Lots smaller widths smaller lot areas so that's something that staff thinks as important for the commission to comment on uh because they are proposing or will be proposing if this moves forward lots that are smaller than what was approved in the Pud uh the app will need to apply for a Amendment to the Pud plan that was approved for Headwaters the overall Master PUD plan to request an uh approval of the smaller Lots again the 50 foot wide and the smaller lot area and that application would be run concurrently with any prelim preliminary plat application page 36 which is page three of my report outlines our City's UD ordinance and things for the commission and Council to think about is really when the city is looking at puds we are in part supposed to be looking at having creative designs that in my opinion maybe resolve a problem or work around a problem or provide some unique alternative design features that may not work using standard zoning and subdivision regul regulations and the intent uh as noted in the code is to provide a greater degree of creating creativity and flexibility and promote health safety order and convenience and general welfare of the city as part of that there are supposed to be uh benefits garnered from the PE with these various opportunities uh maybe it's more efficient effective use of land maybe it's to Reserve or enhance desirable site characteristics say if there's a large wood lot you want to work around that and not take down trees or clearly preserving Wetlands that's a good thing although that's required if you're doing a PUD or not uh to encourage a variety of organization and site elements and densities there's some some of that in this project but overall the city needs should be shown that there's some type of public benefit to allowing in this case it's smaller lots and the smaller lot WIS so again another thing for the commission to comment on the density in this project if I did my math correctly comes out to about 3.07 units per acre so just above the three units per acre that we strive for in our urban areas uh that in part is accomplished by having a smaller lot so that is one thing thing that would it certainly make the Met Council happy doesn't necessarily mean the city would be happy but they they have a minimum floor of three units per net acre that we are striving to meet with all our residential development uh another element in this plan I'm going to enlarge a little bit here this is up in the Hidden Creek third and fourth editions they're showing a park dedication area here they're also showing this area for Park dedication as part of this phase of the development hold this down a little bits off there uh and so here's Headwaters Parkway coming through the site this also is showing having storm water ponds within the park and the city code specifically says that ponding storm water ponding areas cannot be counted for Park dedication requirements so that is something that I'm sure the developers well aware of and will need some further discussion uh they did submit a concept plan for the park itself again preliminary great to have something to react to uh couple of things have been pointed out again showing ponding area and what's also being proposed for Park showing drive and parking coming in off a Headwaters Parkway our city Engineers recommending that that not occur because Headwaters Parkway is going to be designed and will function as a collector Street and the fewer driveways and access points going on to that is uh his recommendation so the park itself will need some vetting out and redesign uh access to the park certainly Trail access or Trail connections are great we'll have a trail on both sides of Headwaters Parkway so that feature is excellent uh and this park park design excuse me will be looked at by the new Parks Commission probably in one of the upcoming months not this month and they'll I'm sure have more comments about the exact features in it but there's still some work to be done in it but again it's a it's a starting point for the conversation uh what else I got I touched on the street layout a little bit in the report touched on the concept plans and the ghost plans uh there's some connectivity we have to make sure it happens uh we're not as a staff real enthused about this dead end culdesac here now they I'm sure the developers don't necessarily have this under contract or under control but uh having an internal Ro connection from site to site versus having all the traffic having to go out to Headwaters Park Parkway is a good thing for traffic and vehicle movement similar to what would be happening over on this side to the east um let's see uh C standard is to have sidewalks on one side of all the streets uh with Headwaters Parkway again extending around here and eventually to the South uh one thing we are recommending is that the the binus trail on the North north and west side be continued and that that same trail design be incorporated on the south and east sides so that it's good pedestrian walkway all along there uh there are some storm water and drainage and ponding things again the engineers talked about uh again we're they are showing ponding areas which may work they're showing some ponding area here again things that all will need to be further analyzed uh and making sure that where the water flows will flow correctly and the uh judicial dish system is running in the area and that has to be taken into account we did receive some preliminary comments from the Watershed District they especially as in these phases all the wetlands will need delineations if they haven't been delineated delineated in the last five years and uh there are some BL lands shown to be impacted and those will have to be the uh impacts and uh mitigation for those Wetlands will have to be addressed in their designs the staging we don't have any concrete information yet uh as what phase they want to do when and that'll be something again we'll want to know as the project moves forward so for tonight we're looking for again feedback from the commission for the benefit of the developer and staff about the Conformity with City standards Conformity with the existing PUD standards and any other elements of the project you like or don't like so the developer can have that information and make decisions as they move forward with that I will stop and take questions there are Representatives here for the developer as well question to staff one quick one before the the white areas are those areas where that are tiled all these all the little white jobbies uh I think those are elevation numbers on Contours okay they just don't show up very well so my my question would be you know I welcome development here in the city um when we did this plat which I think is going on 20 years now I it was pre-recession I know that um We Shrunk our Lots considerably in in this plat the entire PUD um since then we have reduced our lot sizes in half in the mxr1 which just sits in and was to a 65 foot wide lot 7500 square feet I believe and now we're looking to right out of the gate one of the reasons we did that was to reduce puds in general so we wouldn't have this mess back and forth now I understand with the Master P we have this I also understand that the city may be more in favor to 50 foot Lots because it appeases the Met counsel but I think in this case we don't need to appease to met Council um I'm I'm not a a fan of these 50 foot Lots I lived in one in St Paul I'm not a PO to that size lot the problem I have is that in St Paul when you have a 50 foot wide lot you have your story and a half house they made about a billion of them after World War II and then there was an alley with a garage on the back and here I'm going to have 50 foot wide Lots with two if you really press it together you could put a three-car garage on with a doorway it will fit but it's tight and what I don't want is a garage door streetcape you know so I'm not a huge fan of these smaller Lots my last comment on that has got to do with the streets if we have narrower streets do we have any street parking left no when you have these 50 foot Lots no not much as you have lot of Drive boys especially in the CX that that's my comments at the 65 ft the overall layout the ghosting that they've done to help us out I'm sure the park board will do their J due diligence on the park but I'm not a fan of these 50 Footers on other on the same line what what we don't see here are the driveways when they go in and what we'll see later and all of a sudden there's going to be this little 4ot strip of grass between driveways and um and then you just look at it and go wow it's really not what we what we want but and then where do you put the snow Yeah well snow removal is a is another issue as well little tiny lots that the Met Council wanted had at least some argument when the Met Council was talking that Forest Lake would be part of the their Transit District It Ain't So no more they have told us that there shall never be Transit up here again um Leela is very close to this area and when Leela has done surveys of their folks that are moving to Forest Lake they're moving for Leela it is a Regional attraction um this is this would be an amazing place for those families or folks that are planning to have families be very close to their school being close to a great school is a wonderful selling selling point um but a 50 foot lot with no playground no yard space and quite frankly a very very tiny Park for what I calculated to be about 500 people just in these two areas is not something that is going to be attractive to a family um I have some concerns about um especially uh streets A and E how wide are those going to be because um especially I think it's Street uh Street a um and Street e are going to be through streets within that subdivision those are going to be the way that's a major north south street especially in the ghost platted areas and the East West Street yes you've got a lot of houses in there there's going to be on street parking and I have some real concerns unless those streets are significantly wide to intentionally allow parking that it's going to be just a nightmare um for emergency vehicles I have no idea where you're going to put the snow on on those streets or especially in the cesac it's cool we haven't had a whole lot of snow the last two years um I'm not willing to roll the dice that we're not going to have significant snow in the future I I have a a real problem with the 50 Foot Lots I was around when we did that original PUD we did for the sake of the Pud and the for the sake of developers being able to build with with with a significant profit We Shrunk our lots and to go below that um in an area that the developer knows well um um and knows what our previous [Music] PUD aspirations were um is is disappointing um Can when they do the areas that are ghost platted are they going to have access to those ghost platted areas from the south because wow um um I I I I sincerely hope that they're not planning on using the parkway as their main access Andor that those that nor that North South Street keep looking it's Street a as their main construction traffic that's just going to be a melah has for the residents that are on there again especially with those small Lots large construction vehicles with there will be significant on street parking I mean that just is what it is if two people live in a house we're going to have at least two vehicles plus their toys um I Ken you mentioned that that we do puds for creativity and I don't see a lot of creativity in this plan especially since quite frankly Mr bergman's properties that that have been done in Forest Lake showed a great deal and had really good amenities and and I have been very impressed with them in the past past I'm just not sure about about these this 50 foot lot areas I I I I I don't not something that I'm going to be able to to fly with Commissioners other comments I've been through some of the existing housing that's over there during the holidays and when people are parked on both sides of the street it is tough to get a car through there so I'd be more apt to have wider streets and larger Lots as well I would agree with everything the commission said I really appreciate Susan's comments on the school that's right up the street and it is a focal port in that neighborhood I think there's a lot of kids in that neighborhood and these smaller Lots don't work well with families it's one of the reasons I moved to Forest Lake and my kids go to that school and you're seeing a lot more young families over that side of town and to cut these lots and make smaller lot for families doesn't I can't agree can any comments back to us uh not that I'm aware of Abby do you think anything no the only comment that I just want to make uh commissioner young had noted about the ghost plats surrounding this what you see and a couple new Commissioners might just not be aware we do require developers to kind of show how could this interact with those adjacent properties so that might not be how they'll develop in the future it's just do these roads line up into the next properties to where those next properties could logically develop according to our you know our codes so just seting for the record and for new Commissioners out there you may see something else come along in the near future or later down the road that's much different than those ghost plats and that's okay this is just kind of an some ways an academic excise to say how can you how could this lead to those adjacent developments but I do want to um at least just acknowledge commissioner Young's concern we are finding in our you know we're we're a developing Community now and we haven't kind of seen this neighborhood after neighborhood after neighborhood for a while and how um as development kind of keeps moving on the impact that it can have to those existing neighborhoods and I think that's the concern that's being highlighted here is there could be pressure on the Hidden Creek South to the South and the east of the parkway when subsequent properties develop so something to keep in mind I would expect for efficiency that that street a would continue South um I expect it to be a fairly main thorough aair especially since the parkway will have a little bit more limited um you know and exits and Etc um that's that's a ton of vehicles that's just a ton of vehicles Mr chair yes sir with the goost by here we do expect whenever these Parcels develop and again we don't have a timeline don't have applications there will be at least one streak getting all the way out to Fenway to give an Al another alternative uh entrance exit if you will to the whole area and probably one down here to the South someplace but I agree Street a if it continues in this way will that'll it'll be parallel or close to parallel to Headwaters Parkway that will certainly take a lot of traffic we're hoping expecting if there's some kind of a road connection here or down here there will be Alternatives but these are all good great comments to he now so we can be aware of that going forward I yeah I I don't expect that that property to the south and east that is that is south of the Eastern ghost plat and um east of the Southern go I I don't expect those to to develop in in the near future to have a street out there and um this is a lot of homes I I am concerned about emergency access and being able to get more than one one way in and one way out um for large emergency vehicles especially in the winter time or even school buses even school buses oh my glory I understand a developer is here um would you like to add anything get any further clarification had some comments on what the plan is we ask that you do please state your name and address for the record and and welcome to the Planning Commission thank you my name is John dubs Hidden Creek Headwaters Land Group um yeah so several things um one of them is is that uh our last choice and our last desire is to do ghost plats on other people's property we were required by staff to do it I don't speak for anybody else's land and really don't like the idea of doing it however when the staff tells you you got to do it we do it um so please in no way shape or form do we speak for anyone outside of the plot that we put up first and foremost second thing is is that um and I understand I've been here for a while we've had conversations about density in the past uh some of the uh presentation that was done by staff um in my opinion anyway left out some fairly crucial parts inside the well let's start with when the Pud for Headwaters was done it was done 20 years ago as you look around the Twin Cities you'll notice that a significant amount of attached product does not exist anymore very little of it goes up now when the Pud was done and um back when Pratt and other people were building town houses was very common and there is a 6.23 acre parcel in the Pud that exists right up at the top of the cuac where the blue lines are that was guided for multif family but because of building code insurance and a variety of other things this product being detached is actually almost the same density and is a little bit more affordable than an actual attached product is the Builder is the one that put this forward uh I'm a land developer uh Capstone knows what they do and they do it very well um so what in my experience is is you can have attach product which is guided in the Pud or you can have detach product more traditional in essence of a single family but at the end of the day um I I think and I understand and I respect everything that's been said the bigger part of the story at least in my opinion is how do people live in cities how do people pay for houses these days I mean I don't know about you guys but my first house was 75,000 bucks I've been doing this for a while I've been doing this since the early 90s a the most affordable single family house that will go in the third phase this year is probably going to be 465,000 buck on a 65t wide lot that means you have to make 100 Grand a year no debt to be able to qualify for it at current interest rates which none of us can control interest rates have gone up 400% 300% in the last whatever years I mean they're currently hovering around seven um the single family product in blue 70 to $80,000 cheaper $75,000 a year job you can afford to live in Forest Lake and buy a new house so it's not and I I've known the owner of Capstone for 25 years I've known his development partner for 30 um I've been doing this for longer than that it's not like we don't want to do affordable stuff and make things functional but 465,000 bucks how is that affordable it you know it just isn't and so we're trying to provide lifestyle housing we're trying to provide a place where people who live and work in Forest Lake can actually move in a new construction house for a lot of issues that are out of our control this is what it is um the road widths are the same as they are uh in the current Headwaters HD Creek development so from Road width we just extend that further south um the park land and park uh plan I guess you know this is a concept that's been around for a while um I don't know how long ago I was at Park commission but I was there several times four years ago three four years ago in the original Hidden Creek um when we first started and what I got clearly from the park commission back then and what Paul bergerman got before I came to work with him was that we needed to do a Central Park we need to try to provide a home and a place a neighborhood heart and that we would try to put it in the ground and that is exactly what we're trying to do the idea of storm water ponds in the design that's there the intent isn't to get Parkland credit I didn't do the calculations in the first plat that came up with this being Parkland and and the pond being there that wasn't my calculation the pond had to be there for hydrologic purposes there will be another pond in there however the Parkland credit gets worked out we'll work that out but it's nice to have a water feature if you got to put a water pond in there anyway it's nice to at least make it look aesthetically attractive that's the only reason that it's kind of Incorporated in the design itself uh in terms of the park program and park use uh we've talked about volleyball courts talked about sleding hills we look forward to meeting with the park commission working our way through that but our intent is actually to build the park all of it uh and also and just use it as credit going forward um and put it in the ground so there's actually a park that gets built for all the residents that are moving in um so that'll be a dialogue we'll have with uh um the uh uh Park commission when we get there and um and just again just to kind of follow back up to the original um the Pud the master plan PUD for Headwaters uh 20 years ago um you know the lot square footage and overall density of this project the way it's designed is actually 3.02 not 3.07 we're barely over the minimum that's in the guided use of land use down here if we go back to just single family it'll fall under three so we're not even meeting the intent now I understand and I do understand the small lot size thing I get it I've lived in St Paul as well um I live in Roseville now and my lot's pretty small um at the same time I'd love to do things that were not so expensive but for a variety of reasons including building roads and other things it cost what it cost and so yeah um there are a variety of reasons why a PUD makes sense here not only the original PUD uh contemplated higher densities in this general area and our overall density doesn't even barely meets the minimum that was contemplated 20 years ago and we're way at the bottom of that 20 years later um cost is always an issue lifestyle housing is an issue um I don't like met Council dictating terms to people any more than you guys do that being said I don't see it that way I see it as trying to provide affordable housing and I think Capstone does a really good job of that you can go look at these product in Cottage Grove and in Ramsey it's already built um we did did submit some stuff unfortunately we submitted it late Capstone did a great narrative on why this neighborhood would work perhaps we could forward that around to uh the Planning Commission so they could see it as well as the architecture that they submitted maybe that would have been helpful as well so um but yeah know in general um we want to try to figure it out we're very excited by how this has gone this has been a long haul this project I mean seems like I've gotten to know Susan really well over the years um and uh and the Tor and we've all been at this for a while and it's really exciting to see the neighborhood I uh when I drive through the neighborhood I I see a little bit of what you see I also see families I drove through this evening there's people out playing ball with their three-year-old kid and I mean they're just it's it's awesome and then the traction the capstone's getting I I'm really excited by how it's going and I I think it's gone really well so I would like to end it on a positive note and uh and talk about how awesome it is to to be up here and how successful it's been capstone's very excited as well we've had a horrific year last year with the water every developer did it was a nightmare the year before we had a drought that was pretty bad so for those of you that are climate change people um we've seen a couple really weird years we're hoping it's a normal year this year and we can keep going and keep moving with the enthusiasm so I'm happy to answer any questions anybody has do you um is Capstone is built in this development before c don't built the first phase they're working their way through the second and they'll be doing the third and they'll be doing the rest of it as well do and you mentioned we have some stuff coming forward do you know what they plan for these 50 ft wide lits are they Villas like slab on graad they call it the Liberty product and um and after and they're really very detailed um oriented and they spend a lot of time going around the country trying to find Creative Solutions that they can use in the Minnesota culture they're very much from Minnesota their office is out of Ramsey um and after extensive research uh mostly related to the building code and and things that have changed over the last 15 to 20 years insurance and Association and Association law in particular it's very difficult to build aach product it's very expensive it's very driven by liability and so when this PUD was put together in 6.23 Acres was guided here as attached or mid density or ever they described it back then this product takes its place if they did tow houses here they would cost a little bit more than what they project these detached single families would actually sell for and I applaud them for being creative about it I mean if we're you know if we're in Florida or we're in one of these other places where the densities are huge that's one thing but we're in Minnesota and we don't we do detach that's kind of what the state does and so uh and and I've been in several of these products both in Ramsay and in Cottage Grove and it's pretty cute it's a it's a really nice house it works really well it's definitely not the 15,000 ft lot that used to be in rece Lake back in the day and I understand that completely and at the same time we're trying to work with the parameters we've got and with the interest rates starting to go where they are cost is a real issue affordability is a real issue so other question to the developer thank you Jan for CH jard I do have a question um John do you know if the Liberty series is the in Buffalo right now cuz we were're able to find a liberty Series in Buffalo in Buffalo mhm I don't know the answer to that they might be Tom sent over which I think I for I thought I forwarded to you you didn't get we didn't and that's but we can share I I apologize I thought I forwarded he did a narrative Tom bages who is their project manager did a narrative and also uh sent over some architecture and some other stuff so I'll resend that so that you guys have it as well and then they can forward it on I I could have sworn it did maybe got hung up in my out boox and I misspoke I apologize for that and we'll make sure to if you resend it to include it for the council perfect thank you um the previous two phases are the 65 foot Lots aren't they pardon me the previous two phases are the 65 foot Lots yes 65 y right all and all the red Lots well can't see yeah the red ones would be that oh thank you yeah there's the lities um everything in the original 125 lot uh approved Hidden Creek is 65t wide minimums that's correct and and we're already seeing as my compatriot down here issues with the streets and with parking in the streets on the 65 65 foot Lots when we go down to a 50 I am very concerned that it's going to be just not functional I'd rather learn from what we have done previously um then make it worse um and I get cost my first mortgage was 12.79% mortgages but that's right because I'm old um but I I I do have a serious problem with the 50s and I don't in any way mean to detract or disrespect anything that was said I'm just trying to point out that there is more to the story than what I had heard before I stood up there are real consequences to all the decisions we make all of us and uh and I just want to try to do my best to V them out I understand any other questions or concerns you have at a Planning Commission and the input we gave tonight we want to make sure when you leave tonight that you're fairly comfortable with what was discussed and I understand we want to move this forward so we just want to make sure it doesn't take 27 Renditions to get there we do too thank you very much for your time and yeah I it'll be a work in progress hopefully it won't take as long as the first time but we'll see thank you very much for coming tonight can you need any further information from us on this I don't is the commission said their piece Commissioners yes I've set my piece D you were like holding your breath here Gerard we will forward those comments on to the city council who is also required to review concept plans and provide that nonbinding feedback to the developer is scheduled to go March 24th to the city council um we're giving as uh kenon mentioned we're giving the Parks Commission their first meeting off but we will plan to bring that Park plan those concept plans to them hopefully in April to kind of keep them moving along and have that information through the planning process so all right very good thank you all we'll move to our discussion um so we'll we'll uh ask start with you can we have stuff for us well I I don't have anything besides the agenda item so if you want to all right have City administrator St speak I move I've never understand a difference between discussion and update so we'll just move to updates um and we have our distinguished council person Larson here tonight ex Planning Commission member do you have anything you'd like to say this evening thank you commissioner and chair for discussion topic here tonight um just a couple things uh at the council meeting that we had on Monday we had quite the discussion about the NorthShore Trail uh plans and stuff like that so uh after lots of information from Mr Goodman and uh other topics there we came uh to a decision for uh we had six options for our Paving project from 235th to Highway 97 we chose option two which is an 11t wide uh road with a 4ot uh shoulder and then there'll be another two foot of gravel so that'll be running from 235th to Highway 97 both size of the street correct as far as Northshore trail from good good view or good view Greenway to 235th uh there's a lot of discussion about the bike trail so that's a Hot Topic so we made the decision to uh postpone that part of the project until the future um we're also tying things in with the Highway 8 Redevelopment there bike trail along Highway 8 uh there was a lot of discussion also about the continuing the bike trail through the developments and and stuff like that and not existing developments currently so uh that was our decision for the norshore trail area the other thing I'd like to point out is yesterday from 4 to six we had our Highway 97 matter I don't know if any of you folks were able to make it to that but it I think it was uh very very well attended there's a lot of questions a lot of things answered from uh mot folks there's council members as well as the city administrator um police and fire department were there also to talk about things or share so uh I think that was very well received um other than that we're busy we uh yesterday we took a tour the council members as well as the city administrator some of the folks from Public Works we went to Hugo Public Works to look at uh a new Public Works facility for uh concept and thoughts we toured Hugo and we also toured the city of Ramsay so then we came back and had some chats along with our architect crew and uh um kuss it's not K is it K Anderson I believe it is the Builder so sat down after our tour and kind of went over a couple of quick things about that so I'll be happy to answer any questions questions uh one question for you Northshore Trail are we you know there was a lot of Paving options whether it's just going to skin over it or dig it all out and which one do we land on as far as that goes are we taking it down to the I think they're going with a 3/4 inch overlay that was our I think that was the the best decision based upon uh Mr Goodman Goodman's recommendation otherwise we're going to find a lot of fractures and it's going to crack anyway after a few months just because of the movement and stress of the role M Mr chair if I could interrupt the the design that's being put forward for 235th to 97 will be a full depth Reclamation reshape claim reclaim and pave so that'll be a full pavement replacement from 235th back to Greenway right now the idea is to not do anything essentially except pothole patching um that could change as the spring thaw comes along and we may have a disaster on our hands or something you know we we certainly may uh we'll keep that topic open but for now the the plan is is to just pause on anything there but just to be clear that uh there was much discussion yeah there was a lot of discussion about an a thin overlay we have decided to move forward with bidding out uh the full depth Reclamation so all the pavement removing and putting back down um when bids come in you know we'll make a decision too right I mean if it comes in near estimate I I would assume the council would move forward if it's considerably over we'll have another conversation if it's considerably under you know so you know yet to be determined because right now I I bid the bidding climate is just so volatile it's hard to know there's a lot of moving Parts still going on you know and I have personally have a vested interest I live on Northshore they're not Paving that part of the area I know they're yeah cross from the lift station we're just leaving a little JT spot right there they're going to dig it up but they're not going to repave it that's kind of what it looks like [Laughter] now all right thank you sir thank you very kindly folks Mr chair yes sir uh another item the council approved Monday night was the ordinance Amendment for the multif family District remember we talked about the 15 to 20 units per that was approved so that'll be in effect uh tomorrow as it after it gets published in the paper on the Highway 97 it's my understanding too their project will start maybe in June and the West End will be under construction first going out by uh loves and that'll be done hopefully this year and then the East End gets done next year so it's it's a 25 project I thought it was a 26 27 25 26 it's starting 25 right and they're Clos was in 97 right yes that that western part of it yeah because they have so much soil remediation work to do oh I understand that yeah I just want to know how they're going to get from A to B but that's not my problem because I live on the other side um I I did appreciate and I I went and they they did a really nice job last last night so I I appreciated that but they are not going to start 97 until the county finishes substantially finishes Broad way so they won't be starting 97 until June it is Count starting Broadway in April right as they can get out there yeah um and so that we won't have both of our major East westers under destruction at the same time so I appreciated that sounds sounds like it all sounds like good plan well we'll Pat ourselves on the assuming that that mother nature yeah one other thing I want to add we are still down two Planning Commission members so again invite your neighbors and friends and contact city council about if they're interested we would like to have two more or your enemies either way friends or enemies we'll take them off uh Mark do you have anything you'd like to add this evening I think that's about it I thought it was excellent work tonight and thank you for being here and being a part of it any questions of Mark Abby Miss Whitman thank you I want to say thank you to the Commissioners that were able to attend our boards and Commissioners training uh late last month something that I think um our new administrator and our clerk Jolene cha want to you do annually just to keep everybody up to date and refresh and it's good refresher for us and I really really love when we can sit in meeting and say remember we're supposed to follow some rules um so thank you all of you um and thank you all for who didn't eat anything because I had lunch for two days um and then I also wanted to make you aware that the Eda has put on their 2425 work plan some analysis on Headwaters 123 um as many of you know some of you don't know um Headwaters 123 was originally a part of the headwaters plan unit development and was um slated to develop for residential uses half dozen years ago maybe um the city changed that for business guiding it for business park uses and we've been getting a lot more inquiries on the property um smaller users uh nobody that wants 123 Acres um a lot of residential including one of the concept plans that you recommended the council deny and the council did deny um at looking at some opportunity for residential through there so um in early April the Eda and the council are going to hold a joint work session uh the goals of that work session are to look at the eda's work plan for the rest of 25 look at the next 18 to 36 months but a large part of the focus will be on Headwaters 123 do we continue to maintain guiding it in this fashion um are we still really holding out hope for one single user pros and cons to different types of land use some development constraints that we've learned about I can certainly keep all of you informed of when that meeting is there'll be an open public meeting whatever we discuss there though we'll come back and consult definitely with the Planning Commission certainly if there would be future land use changes or contemplated but wanted you to at least be aware that we're really starting to look at um how can we be more proactive about that future development of that site as it is seeing a lot of development pressure pinch point right in that area Abby is is all of that in the Musa it is yep the Musa boundary um extends to the southern line of the Hidden Creek South property that you just saw tonight on your concept plan that's our the end of our 2030 Musa um anything beyond that's in our 2040 Musa um so kind of thinking a little bit further out in our development Horizon thank you because we have a staged Musa right I just come remember where the line was yeah and that's just a great question and probably something that we can probably start doing a little bit more educational filler in the tail end of some of these shorter meetings to help bring some of our new Commissioners up to speed on our comp plan um understanding the functions of it some of the content of it because um later this year we're going to probably start talking about um how we develop a plan what kind of plans we want to do for updating that comprehensive plan over the next couple of years so I know it seems really early you're looking me like didn't we just do this um but it's essentially planning for the plan is what we'll be doing later this year so as long as we're doing so well on planning we might as well go back to zoning here on these short meetings we would have time to cover more zoning and I know Claire likes to come and join us and sit here and present so how we moving along on that I think we are Mr chair we are working through landscape ordinance options where that was a sticking point of plant units and coverage uh the City attorney reviewed the definitions the good news was all the definitions were proposing to change she had no comments on but she found some other things that we need to look at further so we are in fact Claire and I spent two hours on it yesterday and we're going to spend some more time on it Friday trying to get we they're not forgotten is I'll leave it at that and we're striving to get those two sections and the lighting uh through the process I don't we Abby had a good point earlier this week we don't want to rush it and miss something we want to do it right and the attorney review caught some good things and we're making sure we do it all correctly the first time um just to follow up on that chair D members of the commission I think when we started this process we talked about this overhauling the zoning code at one fall swoop there's some risks in it right you work on it over a long time and then you adopt it all at once and then when you adopt it so much of it can be kind of outdated and so we really wanted to kind of pece meal it really looking at some of those lwh hanging fruit I think one of the things that um both Claire Ken and myself kind of learned in that is lwh hanging fruit really should be like let's look at one ordinance at a time you know I don't want to say bang it out and move on type of thing but I think um even though lighting landscaping and definitions seem a little bit innocuous nothing about our code is innocuous we want to just make sure that whatever we're putting back in and and where we're altering is really works for the long run so we'll get those cleaned up they may end up coming back before you before going back to the council um but then I think what our hope would be is that you you'll just kind of see one subject matter at a time so that we're really honing in taking a deep dive cleaning it up moving on thank you Mr chair I did have two other things I keep thinking um Abby and I and our engineer we've had had probably the last month several meetings with developers looking at residential concept plans in this area and then over off a good view in that area we had one earlier today in fact uh we I I expect I'm going to speak for myself I bet we have four or five six preliminary plats come in in the next 60 days remember our discussion on lot wits yeah it would be nothing for you to the city to see 300 homes ploted yet this year um here's my question do we have water for we do um remembering we're still under the White Bear Lake lawsuit and and we're kind of on the edge of that um a lot of homes a lot of water and both for for pumping capacity and treatment capacity so far the engineers have not raised a red flag on that but they're in all the discussions early on because they rebuilt a lot of that stuff yeah I I I remember but the other thing I wanted to add besides that is we are now getting I at least I'm getting a lot of inquiries about canab abis about what cannabis the retail sales the micro and where they can grow what our ordinance say we haven't adopted ordinance we got adopted in November and now the state's getting closer to maybe actually having their act together so people are are interested in trying to a figure out if how receptive Forest like will be and be what are the rules where can they go and that kind of thing I I've again had several inquiries about it so I fully expect once the state has their rules in place however that'll flesh out that we will be seeing some interim use permit applications for either retail or for grow facilities could you help me remember where we were allowing growing I thought it was an egg egg and conservancy and the uh industrial all indoors by conditional use permit no I no or iup excuse me inter no outright permitted uses our zoning maps are pretty clear so look forward to that that's all I really I think that's all know as long as we making water comments you know as long as you're tearing up my whole Road how about dropping some water pipes down there now I realize our city engineer uh Ryan has pretty much emphatically stated I'll be dead before there'll be water back there but I do like to and I I'll do this for Mark's or edification when when we merged with the city or if you lived in the city or you were annexed if you lived in the township hos annexed we were uh assured that we would have all of the amenities and utilities at the current City had and I would say we're kind of batting 0 for three but I'm not going to get on my soap box but just just to bring it up I my neighbors ask that all the time because we got poor water back by us got a lot of tannin in it you can't keep your white porcelain white you got sanitary sewer yep y that's one of the three is it Mr chair if I if I could just um as my background as an engineer uh as Abby and Ryan are figuring out and then Ken um I do tend to stick my nose into things maybe a little bit more than I I probably should as as the administrator sometimes but um it was one of the questions I asked Ryan about right away um on that section of Northshore Trail hey you know why why wouldn't we extend water out there and we we had a little bit of the conversation there um I think Ryan might think the conversation's over but but I I do want to Circle back to that I think it's a fair question um at least put the pipes in the ground well yeah of course it's a bit more complicated than that but yeah yeah those soils are so lousy that you'd be break they'd break as fast as you'd try and use them the city the sewer survived well most of it anyway except for part that dropped in the middle of the lake all right well that's yeah that flow to no I think in in general sewer and water service um in the Northeast part of town is is a a very long range topic that should be discussed um with with some with some study I I'm certain there has been study of it before but um I I think it's not something at least In Pockets that may still be worthwhile of discussion thank you Abby anything else no sir we've gone all over the place here Tim anything no Susan no no Jesse I have nothing hearing that chair is looking for a motion to adjourn so move I have a motion and I have a second second I got a motion and a second it's a non- debatable motion all those in favor signify by saying I I I opposed extensions motion carries thank you all for your service this evening do we are we back in what are we have two weeks we're about 5050 on whether we're going to have meeting or not well we'll keep you in the loop all right perfect thank you [Music]