[Music] 7:01 will'll call the meeting to order uh Ken would you do the role please please oh please yes I will commissioner wager here commissioner young here commissioner sender here chair Gerard here thank you for attending all for if you're able please Jo join and stand and join us for the pledge of allegiance of Al States before I ask for approval of agenda if anyone is here tonight to speak to the Landscaping requirements during the public hearing uh we will be tabling that we are not ready to present that data tonight if you're here to present comments we will take them during the public hearing but we will not be having a discussion at the Landscaping we will leave it on the agenda because it was recognized as part of the public hearing so at that the uh chair is looking for a motion to approve the agenda as is or what changes I move that we approve the agenda second I have a motion in a second it's a non- debatable motion all those in favor signant by saying I I I opposed abstentions motion carries uh item five is election of officers this is an annual uh event and the Planning Commission um selects who they decide to be chair and vice chair so um it's a rotating and we can go any way you guys want so with that the chair is open to a motion for anyone to be chair I move that Paul Gerard be chair I'll second it I further move that Paul Gerard be be made chairman by acclamation would you explain what that is that means we all just say yes and close the rest of the nominations do I have a second for that I'll second it all those in all those in favor signif by by saying I I opposed abstentions I chair is looking for a motion to uh for the vice chair nominations are open who do we like to see sure yeah my name's Tim St thanks Susan I have a motion for Tim for being Vice chair do I have a second I'll second it any other nominees hearing none all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed abstentions motion carries very good what this means to next time you sit there they kick her out one and she'll just be a static all right so tonight oh just our open form we ask if anyone would like to speak to any issue uh coming for us tonight or in general uh please step up state your name and address for the microphone and then uh come on and give us your opinion so if anyone wishes to come forth please do so now again do we have anyone online that wishes to no sir all right see no one come forward we'll close the open form part item seven the chair is looking for a motion to approve the consent agenda which has one item a minutes from the regular meeting of January 22nd 2025 Mr chair I would move approval of the consent agenda I have a motion to approve do I have a second second I have a motion in a second any discussion on a motion carry none all those in favor signify by saying I I I opposed extensions motion carries we'll move to our regular agenda item number eight a is a public hearing for zoning or ordinance text Amendment regarding maximum density and multifam the MF zoning District ordinance number 749 case file number pz25 d1302 Ken are you presenting I am Mr chair thank you as you introduced we have received a application request to amend zoning code section 153 323a which is regarding or in the multiple family zoning district and the change as proposed would be changing the requested change was to change the maximum density as outlined or written in that section of the code from 15 units per net acre to 20 units per net acre the rationale for that change is to make that language consistent with our comy it's a plan as I noted in the report in our high density residential land use category we say that density is intended to be 15 to 20 units per acre thus these two are inconsistent and generally good planning practice is to have your zoning code and your comprehensive plan consistent with each other so the original request was to just change the 15 units to 20 units per net acre however upon further review uh specifically by our new city manager uh Mr stats he suggested a little different change and I will read the change it what we're trying what we want to do is have the have it as a range uh and so it would be in a where now it says a maximum of 15 years per net acre it would say uh multiple dwelling structures with a and this is the new language minimum density of 15 units per net acre and a maximum density of 20 units per net acre so we make it real clear that we're expecting a range of housing density and not necessarily just the top end because I guess in theory somebody could come in and propose six or eight units per acre and that wouldn't really be consistent either so we are recommending uh Planning Commission hold the public hearing discuss this and then uh we are recommending approval of the ordinance with the change I just uh read again it's or ordance number is it 748 or 749 749 ordinance in the packet say 748 it is 749 and and again with the change to say with a minimum density of 15 units per net acre and a maximum density of 20 units per net acre and with that I will take questions questions to staff Susan it was published with a single number do we need to republish no because I think our hearing notices say uh we're discussing this part of the zoning code and I think we're smart enough to put in that this is what's proposed but other changes may occur some of the things that we've been looking at in terms of high density multi-use were not on the net acreage but they were on the full acreage as we were doing our calculations can on a couple of the very we don't have a whole lot of parcels in the city that are are high density residential that are vacant that are vacant of those what are we looking at in terms of height of these buildings the for a net working on net developable acreage and 20 units per acre well this Madam chair or mam chair Miss Young and the members of the commission uh the zoning code allows multiple family buildings to be four stories or up to 45 fet in height probably the closest example most recent example in my time here is the new apartment building going up down in headwaters that's an example of that's a high density for story building I'm I'm thinking of the potential for the Shadow Creek having a for because of the amount of wetlands and and the roads etc etc or a fivestory building there and and the look of that as as compared to the surrounding area um it's just outside the airport restricted area I mean like best outside out of the cone yeah just just barely um if I may Susan the the only way they could have five stories is they had a lower level that was below ground safer parking you could have potentially four stories above ground grade but you could not have five stories above grade okay I like the range I don't think that any developer is ever going to consider anything less than 20 unlikely but but um I like the range because it does give us some flexibility with specific locations and can you help me remember if the Southeast corner of lake and Broadway as it's being redeveloped what that would look like as a high density it's in the Broadway District some reason I thought on the map when I was looking I believe I believe that's in well that that's in our downtown mixed use District but I don't know of any zoning district and I'm going by memory that allows anything more than four stories okay thank you thank you very much the only developable parcel here is the one off 202nd is 61 that's left right when you look that's no there there's a couple more but that's the one of most likely but there might be a couple of smaller there's a couple more but they're pretty built out there might be one more for Minard's area but that's about it and there's there's a couple more on a a block back in the long range if if some of that area is redeveloped then yes there's there's more there I looked at the map tonight yeah it so can I have a question for you you know you your your premise here is that according to the compreh plan that it states we should have 20 in the MF correct 15 to 20 is 15 to 20 so no comp plan is on page 19 States it should be 10 to 15 in the MF believe it or not I actually read it I I I believe you but I the language that's on the page one of the report I pulled right out of the comprehensive plan so that's why well this is what throws me for a loss now are we talking different districts or that that's my only question it it talks about it's the one that's on the website can you pull that up I don't know what we can do from up here it's always scary where would it be I never look on the website because of course have a copy I think it's on the bottom of this one end at the comprehensive plan somewhere on here maybe it's under your community now go back to where you were yeah you might have to go into Community Development it might be in that one Zing Maps plans because it's with plans yeah see if it's in here there it is look at that what page around 19 Mr chair yes and and since I just so everybody knows who's looking watching on TV which is probably nobody I forgot my notes so my wife took pictures and amending which part of the ordinance is it it's page 19 it makes me jump there's a map getting closer all right so here's is Mr Sher if you see right here on page 18 where I'm circling can you see that's the language where we say the high density residential land use is 15 to 20 units per but that's not the district we're talking about we're talking about the EMF but that's the zoning code this is the land use code go down to page 19 and you have it here where is this age 19 now I'm not going to be able to find it Susan help me out you always find your stuff I know and I'm I'm trying to can you scroll down a little further well I'll take your word on it CU three inch again the high density here it's just a single number in there a 15 and the on the comp plan that's why I'm confused but I'll take your word on it I'm not going to beat the horse I'm fine with the change but I just want to make sure we're consistent is is my concern absolutely so if I find otherwise tonight when I go home or tomorrow I'll email you and say here's what I was referring to how's that sound you know where to find me yes and you you even reply every now and then that once in a while any other questions to staff and so again just so everyone's clear this is up here this is our residential categories in the comp plan and this high density residential is what we're referring to and trying to make the zoning code consistent with that since our ordinance already says 15 to 20 and we're making a change to 15 to 20 why do we need to do it well no M it says a maximum density of 15 units per net acre it's a current language and the zoning code and the zoning code so now we're changing that to almost mirror the zoning code to what's in the comprehensive plan other question to staff since the city's the applicant is there like anything they would like to add no I think I've done my part this is a public hearing way this will work is if anyone one would like to speak to this application we ask you come up to the elector and state your name and address for the record once we have heard from all parties um we will close the public hearing and we'll bring it back to the uh Planning Commission for decisions so at that we'll open the Planning Commission it's we'll open a public hearing at 7:18 p.m. does anyone wish to speak to this applic a can do we have anyone online or anything to be read in uh no and no I'll ask the question one more time does anyone wish to speak to this application seeing no one come forward either in the room or online we will close the public hearing at 7:19 p.m. Commissioners what's your pleasure and if you're going to make a motion please remember at KN we make a recommendation to city council we are not the final decision I'll move to recommend the city council adopt the proposed ordinance amending title XV land usage chapter 153 Section 153.7 3 multif family residential district SE I have a motion do I have a second second I have a motion in a second any discussion on the motion any discussion I point of clarification is with the recommended change that I spoke of earlier oh with the recommended change thank you and the second is okay with that yes okay any other discussion on a motion hearing none all those in favor signify by saying I I I I oppos abstentions motion carries we'll be uh putting this to the Council on March 10th their next meeting all righty item 8B is a public hearing for zoning orance text amendments case fil number pz25 D1 1293 we're going to have three parts of this we will have the definition of the ordinance number the lighting regulation ations and the Landscaping regulations which I State we will take comment if anyone wishes to comment but we are not discussing the Landscaping as we are still doing some work on it to prepare it for uh public hearing so with that I believe Ken you're presenting or no I'm sorry I'm GNA start off and then we'll turn it over to CLA okay thank you Mr chair uh as a commission's well aware we've been working through zoning ordinance text amendments uh to try to make it better for the city staff Commissioners and the public in general we had a bunch of changes we reviewed back on December 11th with the commission uh worked through many of those but did not get through all of those and we brought more of those changes back to the commission on January 22nd staff received some suggested changes at that meeting and we are now here tonight to present the latest our latest work on two sections again the definitions and the lighting standards and then as you said the landscape regulations will come later so the I think the thing important thing to highlight with the definitions and and just for each item there's a cover memo that Claire and I put together with the MSA heading and then there's the actual ordinance in ordinance form so you know what it'll look like when it goes to the council we did that for both the definitions and the lighting section so you could see if you really cared how it would look in ordinance format the definitions I went through them Claire went through them uh tried to address all the comments and suggestions of the commission these included uh I research for there Washington County regulations State statutes and other references to make sure the changes were consistent with state law current zoning and other land use practices in the area the changes that since the last meeing show up in bold underlined and ear in yellow so they hopefully really pop out or easy for you to see that where where new language has been added other language crossed out etc etc I guess I'll turn it over to CLA at this point but I guess if my thought is if the commission has se certain definitions they want to further discuss they work through a page by Page or line by line or however you wish um but we'll see Claire anything else you stole a lot of my thunder no um just yeah please let us know if there's something just like in the last ordinance discussion you all had we can still make some amendments to these especially during the public hearing process so um we're happy to do that and as noted in Ken's memo there might be some minor adjustments by the time this goes to the council as we're still waiting on the city attorney's final feedback and comments on this so uh that there might be a few things still slightly subject to change but we're if there's anything that we missed we thought we combed through both of our two notes together with these highlights to make this um or anything new that's caught your eye let us know or like I said happy to run through things line by line but really triy to make it clear what's been uh added or subtracted based on your comments in the way that we posed our memo for tonight's meeting excuse me CLA I only have two comments um one is on uh page 39 report is non-conforming use it says see non-conforming use okay but I I noticed that down in the ordinance part of it you have put it in so I assume it just just didn't get corrected it just didn't get yeah in okay that's but yes that is true because what is in ordinance form is like Ken said how it would go to the council slash then be published and reput in your um unic code or whomever hosts your code um so but I will certainly make a note of that that for my staff report so that it's all consistent thank you and then in uh my my other one had to do with it's on page 26 of the actual Ordinance one okay or page 40 of the report I believe it's the first one water dependent usage I'm I'm curious why we have that it strictly discusses Riverfront usage for ships and barges and other stuff we have the sunrise River and couple of dissu dis ditches I'm curious why we're adding Riverfront commerce definition to our ordinance um I think that when we as staff discussed adding that I know that it's specificed Riverfront and maybe that's something we need to adjust but with the um Marina being mentioned in there in that definition for any sort of like repair or construction I think staff was trying to relate that to the lakefront uses and maybe didn't catch that River so we certainly I'm fine as long as we take it to Lakefront then I'm reading this I'm going did do we Annex scandy yeah no and the river over there we you know as we looked through codes that we know have been recently updated that had gone through their definition one of those communities was Cottage Grove which obviously is on the Mississippi and so that I'm wondering if that's where we had pulled it and just didn't catch river uh so we'll make make it more Lake specific um and again yeah some of the Commerce side of it wasn't the intention either it was really more marinas and repair Etc that that stuff really should likely be occurring out of the water and at a shop so so um if I if I may Commissioners um I'd like to take the definitions first and then we'll do the other ones and then we'll do a public hearing and everything since it looks like the crowd's just g at the bit out here so any other comments on the definitions I've got a few um the floor is yours Susan Okay um there are some areas where um the there's not a space between two words or or periods or or I'm I'm not going to mess with those too much um just as a style thing when you're referring to something that has been approved by the city do you capitalize City because some places it is and some places it isn't and I admit it's a pet peeve that and needs things need to be consistent and Miss younger you in the ordinance itself or in the cover memo I'm in the cover memo okay I'm assuming it was essentially block and copied you're you're looking for cons consistency I think is yes I am okay okay I think I mean just typically usually the city is capitalized with throughout the rest of the code so we'll make sure that all of the CES are capitalized uh in the full ordinance form and make it consistent on agricultural use I really liked the um addition um that the activity does not need to be a principal source to be considered thank you for that um tried to add them marked um on the [Music] easement um it says the right of a person entty government agency private or public utility to use public or private land owned by another for a specific purpose does for it to be a true EAS M doesn't that easement need to for it to for it to be a a legally enforcable easement doesn't it need to be documented on the property record and if so shouldn't that be included in the definition and we run into that here all the time versus prescriptive prescriptive easements and it it it just said it doesn't say either one and so my concern is we use easements here on a regular basis and I just want to make sure I believe it it it should be the definition should include documentation on property records but I believe it's probably something for the City attorney to do a final yeah we can certainly post that question to her we'll certainly check it yeah um on feed L um thank you again for the equestrian facility and um definition of farms um since we on farms since we've removed the the need for it to be primary um we Define it on things that are incom producing such as cash crops reading or or breeding of poultry farming um I'm wondering if deleting the word cash from that definition would remove it so that it is not a strictly um incom producing BAS to be a farm hopefully if you're raising crops are forecast but not necessarily well I I have a farm but I'm not selling a whole lot it's are you collecting cash it's for my for my own purposes what I raise there is is what I use for my own purposes I'm not selling those things right well and the first line of that sentence attractive land which is principally used for agricultural doesn't mean exclusively used I know if we got wiggled room there but principally means that most of the property is essentially income producing we'll check it thank you y um my next one is down on page 10 home occupation as you read that definition it it's not not like the other definitions so I'm proposing that that be rewarded to say home occupation commercial activities which are clearly secondary to the primary use of the structure as a residential dwelling and which are a portion of a dwelling or attached accessory building on the same lot in other words everything else we've got defined as the thing not a use and so a this is home occupation is a thing and so keeping the words but rearranging them so that it would say um could you read that again for us pleas commercial activities which are clearly secondary to the primary use of the structure as a residential dwelling and and uses a portion of a dwelling or an attached accessory building on the same lot now would that also include hobbies that you sell stuff as well yep those are home occupations in there or does it no it's just the activity it's not okay it could say yeah did you get all that so so will you read that one more time I certainly can because because I had to play with it and it's I would give you the paper but you probably couldn't read it okay um okay occupation yeah commercial activities which are clearly secondary to the primary use of the structure as a residential dwelling and use a portion of a dwelling or an attached accessory building on the same lot and you can always replay it live on tape we may have to but yeah we'll we'll make that change okay and I I'll give you this if if you think y'all can read it that's not a problem I think Claire's okay on that she can't read her own note I know I'm like oh on manufactured home park in other cities there are manufactured home parks on which the on you you own the home but you also it's more like a condominium sort of thing where you also own the land underneath so those would be prohibited here I I've never heard of one that you actually buy the lot that you put the home on I've always considered them to be for rentals because you're you're renting the lot you own the home and then when I've never heard of a the version you speak of sort of like that Condominiums Downtown but flat I don't think we're going to have a big problem with this because I don't expect we're going to have more in for SL then under manufacturing again this is a personal thing I really hate using the word that we're defining as part of the definition so I would I would recommend that we say manufacturing a used engaged in the making predominantly from previously prepared d d da and then under manufacturing light the making of products so that we're not using the word that we're defining as the definition on the Musa do we need to put a timeline in there I can see someday that some of the land east of 61 that we do not predict will be in the 20 year Musa could be someday um but when we say are or will be available I'm wondering if there needs to be some sort of a time in there it but I it goes on to say and is identified in the city's comprehensive plan okay and so each compreh comp plan gets updated every 10 years and that will be kind of our time guideline thank you motor vehicle fuel station does Holiday have to stop selling food no because it comes under so they have two different definition there they would be conveni motor vehicle convenience store M the one above it but they have the convenience store which is like the Quick Trip holiday super mar Speedway nowadays and then you got the service garages I think is what we're handling here y of which currently I don't believe forest lake has one yeah the last one we had was the BP which is now Starbucks and I think and I don't think I I see them anywhere anymore they're pretty rare okay cool actually I think they I know they're either convenient stores or they're just straight repair shops there's very few that are fuel Sales and Repair Shops together the shell used to have two bays in it right downtown make more money selling made them convenience store thank you thank you thank you for the definition of pasture areas as we get more folks that are um are moving out to the country and don't realize the concept of animal units per acre um I think that that is that's going to be very helpful to us on Prime farmland could we tie that since we tie tie many of our other definitions to county or state or or federal definitions would it be possible to tie that to the USDA definition of prime Farmland which also includes um things like frequency of flooding and the water table and wind erodability and their definition and I think it's section 622.org is the portion of the US code that's under USDA we can certainly look at that I learned a lot by just doing the research I did and adding these things I'm a city boy so that was good stuff it it it will but the USDA definition is pretty widely accepted um and I don't remember if I get this from State records or Washington County but we'll look at it I know that most of the the public Waters definition it's it says all no I think we're good never mind I was getting at at our piping and personal Wells but I think we're good on that um recyclable recyclable materials you've added composting in there but you did not include the materials like food and vegetative matter in your listing of the materials that it's limited to and none of the things that are listed except cardboard can be composted so I would suggest that if we're going to list things you would include food and vegetative matter and since there is wouldn't vegetation vegetative matter be under composting I know food waste and the food waste pickup now is a thing but but see you you you said for the purpose of recycling or composting sure you added the term the words composting in there and so should we just pull that that the two words Washington County has added the composting to the recyclable materials I mean that they consider that it's considered recycling now um well we can't add it to the can no but you don't it's a reuse of a material right and I'd also suggest Fabric in there because there are now finally again markets um but if you have composting and you're going you list the specific items then you need to add the compostable materials would if I may in the second sentence where it says for the purpose of this chapter these materials are limited to if we changed it to say these materials May include but are not limited to that would be wonderful because the list is always going to change yes it is okay we'll do that may include but are not TR it's all Plastics are not recyclable but you know the it's people think of them M it's wish cycling instead of recycling you're a pro there aren't many folks that know that term go um we dropped inexpensive I saw that um I love the definition of sign Paul are you okay with that one well something tells me that we may have to come back to that one when we do the sign order correct yes um hey it's it's complete I mean it's it's complete attention getting devices Graphics painted on or attached to Windows um see it says exclamations and then question or on Persons animals or Vehicles well I think when we actually get into the sign ordinance and say what are we going to allow and not allow we'll change this definition okay then you're going to need to do another public hearing because you're going to be changing the ordinance again well we'll be if we update the sign ordinance we'll be changing okay yeah um you don't like snakes and amphibians and veterinaries small animal clinics we were trying to Def break those out between the small and the large if you can carry it in it's a small animal that was for me if you could write it in it's large kind of again I'm a city boy and that's the extent and and you all listened really really well and I realize that that this is an enormous task and I appreciate the work that went into it thank you I think Jesse may have had a couple things I have one thing kind of um on the what page is that we have a definition for condominium yeah and then that's also under dwellings and we moved accessory apartment to just being under dwellings MH we want to move condominium under there just leave it there that would be page 19 on the whole five and six of your covering that I I mean I think we certainly could move it under dwelling like we did accessory um apartment well you and under dwelling there's all sorts of things that are listed duplexes and the kind of minium is letter B under there right under multif family dwelling 3B is condominium yeah so question is do we need both they are slightly different not I mean because one thing you can have is you can have commercial industrial kind of miniums selling storage or bu like a garage condo yeah but are those typically defined under outdoor storage I've never permitted one um I don't think so or you because outdoor storage usually specifies rental you know Common ownership with a rental of the space sure whereas owner condos yeah they own those parcels and so it may be important because so the the condominium definition covers any kind of real estate where the one two pages later is specifically for residential Condominiums okay so we're comfortable keeping them separate I would recommend that and that way if we were to have a condom a mobile home park it would still be in the definitions yes that's correct yes because the one under dwelling I guess yeah does specify residential dwelling whereas condominium doesn't specify residential so any other comments questions concern anybody else comment we will move from the um definition portion to the lighting portion and who is doing that we'll let Claire take that yes welcome Claire we appreciate you being here once again thank you and I appreciate all the work that the commission has done on these amendments so far and working with us through uh these long agendas and uh packets so the lighting um amendments that you have before you this evening is a a similar to what and we briefly talked about this the last time I was here in December but we kind of focused a little more on Landscaping just because uh there was some more actual text amendments that we need to work on lightingwise at least from what staff gathered from the discussion we are recommending removing the lighting subsections within those uh minimum design standards with uh B 3 BP uh NC moving all of that referencing the general city lighting ordinance and moving those specific requirements into the lighting ordinance um and I tried to lay that out within my staff memo the first couple Pages shows where it was existing in the lighting or excuse me in the district standards uh yes section 153 074 I think to maybe 085 is about how far that goes and then we would be moving that language and not changing any of the text just moving it to uh the lighting section of 153 130 which starts on page 72 of your packet and uh I think the memo is Page four um adding a new section that says additional performance standards for NC B1 B2 B3 B p and I because they were all saying the exact same thing in five different sections of the code we're moving that to lighting where lighting lives already people will developers residents Etc will already be looking there for whatever they need to show in their lighting plans Etc and then uh additional performance standards for mu1 and mu2 as those were slightly different wording than the NC B1 B2 Etc uh but those two were were also the same so we added a section within there again not proposing any text changes other than a couple wording switches uh of things that say like uh back in the old sections you know the B3 District must follow the lighting requirements presented in the city's lighting ordinance so that those are the text changes not actual nothing content related we're not changing any of the performance standards at this time although we did receive one um a comment from City administrator about uh what the part that Ken has up here on the screen 3A and 4A the decorative style lighting a maximum of 14 ft in height shall be used to illuminate all site areas with the exception of parking uh since we're already looking to move this language and amend it he was concerned that this Lang anguage might add some confusion as to if we were meaning every other part of the um area has to be fully lit or does it mean in areas other than parking uh or parking areas are allowed a 14 foot or higher but the rest of the site can't have anything 14et and so we staff has come up with a different language here that might um uh clarify that and so what we'd be recommending and again this was just sent to us a few days ago that's why it's not updated in your packet is would be decorative style lighting fixtures may be used throughout the site but must not exceed 14 ft in height except in parking areas where taller fixtures are permitted works for me so so that would be 3A and 4 a 3A and 4 a yeah would amend into that updated language and then again we'd propose that the earlier sections of chapter 153 we'd remove all of the this language from that PE uh guide people to the lighting ordinance for any yeah any standards um because it was saying the same thing multiple different times in a spot of the code that really just didn't make a lot of sense when lighting lives somewhere else so so again to be clear the concern with 3A and 4 a here one could read that and say well does that mean I got to light everything and that's not the intention want to make it more clear hopefully clearer that where you're going to do lighting here's how you do it do you define Shox style lighting anywhere I don't think we do Define it and and may I make that suggestion please yeah absolutely I don't even know what shx do let's see oh it's looks like it's kind of like what you see in parking areas but yes we can certainly add a definition um we talk about it so much I just wanted to be clear what we're it it might be one of the you know a lot of updated codes that have Graphics or pictures might be something where we show up just a graphic of what what we mean by shoe box lighting because from that quick Google search they all looked pretty similar so yeah but we'll add that into definitions that's a great point I I didn't know if claid anything else she was presenting uh no that's it for that's that's what we have here for your consideration this evening is the amendments to those earlier sections with the removal of that language but not withstanding that the language is elsewhere in the code we're not complet we're just removing it from those sections shifting shifting yes so that that's what we have for your consideration on the lighting uh changes so my only comment and then I'll turn it over to Susan because I'm sure she's got something and in the ordinance on we're on page 75 of the report section one under the amendment I'll let you get there up top here in the report section one section one Amendment yeah right there all right first paragraph we talk about applicable for the NC B1 and B2 we scroll down under three and four we got the NC and B1 but five or it's labeled as two is the B3 should this be five no that needs to move to section four or to the next section uh which is because there's the B3 here because this is where B3 is supposed to be so I also had that thought when I was making this amendment for the packet and it's not correct in the ordinance right now so if as part of this process we want to move that we can but it's actually incorrect currently in the code I was wondering why I didn't make my changes the last time because we're missing B2 correct and it's not there isn't yeah it's it because I I spent about a half hour with all of my screen means up making sure that I wasn't missing something um but that's absolutely something we can address as part of this amendment um because we do cover B2 then because we do yeah we cover B2 down in the new language yes um got on the screen so I would it just seems to me that this is a time to line it all I agree yes and I don't think there's a whole lot of difference for what to be to is you know we're looking at uh the Broadway area and primary primarily the Broadway Corridor is the biggest yeah and limited industrial and Highway businesses to be too y so they're they're all pretty similar so I I personally my vote is to clean it all up now yeah these are the things that we don't necessarily check as a staff because we've read it 16 times well one of these things that reading through it and I go you know I thought there was something else I was supposed to be reading if I don't read it late at night I'm actually fairly sharp contrary to what's been you've been told on yeah I have a note on that yeah so we'll make sure that it's all in line for moving forward with B2 B3 and within the labels especially with what will be in the ordinance that will get adopted yes Susan just because I live in a house that never was inspected on um section 15313 lighting regulations we're down there to see one all outdoor lighting fixtures lawfully existing and legally installed prior are exempt from the regulations um where 53 it it says uh C1 oh not so it's a non-conforming use yeah that's really really really really Broad and a little bit scary but if the City attorney is cool with it then I guess I I am too and again that's our existing language that we were not proposing any changes doesn't mean right and I and I get that but do mean what he said right about clean up sure that's a good one to clean up that's because I'm in the [Laughter] chair um so this is actually very common lighting non-conforming use language from my experience working in some other communities now I'm not a lighting expert and there are you know when we do full lighting amendments I bring in like our electrical engineers and people that look at photometrics all that fun stuff but this is not uncommon language I'm not saying we can't look into addressing it but Forest Lake is not the only city with this language I get that but if they jump off the bridge that doesn't mean that I'm going to jump off the bridge too I agree I yes I agree I just I was so I I just I just want perhaps the City attorney to be happy with that one sure as I'm trying to figure out how how I would comply with some of the these things um business Commercial and mixed use to and then we go down to e on outdoor lighting for parking lot serving commercial industrial businesses if I've Got a Car Lot the lighting that I use during business hours when it's dark outside is pretty much the same that I would use for security mhm how is that different and should it be you know a lot of the LEDs being installed in Lots today are two levels they have a low level for nighttime if there's no one out there and if someone comes through they have a motion sensor around and kicks them up on the high okay cool that's what we were installing and re abutted a resid IAL distri of course it's kind of wild it looks just like in the movies when you drive down there and all the lights go out right if you ever park at the airport they have that kind of lighting in the terminal lot as you drive down they all turn up oh okay M you have it in the hallways here I don't get out um is that something we want to require the challenge will be the actual implementation and then enforcement I get that because we don't have the lighting police are going to drive around at 9 o'clock at night and see what their lights are doing you can say that about almost everything in our zoning code correct because we don't necessarily want to pile on more but yes right could we just put in there that a lower level lighting is acceptable at night encourageable or required encouraged or required required encouraged which section would that be added into it would be it would be in that e the use of outdoor like the outdoor outdoor lighting that serves businesses that do not operate after dark must be turned off one hour after closing except for Approved security lighting and and what I'm saying is that for for a lot of these places right now their business lighting is their security lighting and it's bright so could you put in there like example like dimming the lights M and after closing or reduced allar turns I know turn some of them off they red the most Prime examples of these would be the car dealerships and what do they do and I don't I don't know they leave them on yeah I'm sure there's some lights on but I don't know if they dim them down or if they automatically sit back on a timer or on the motion detectors or how they do that staff probably has a a better way of saying this but I there's got to be a better way so it be in three in the second sentence try to add some words in about them back or to a lower setting or dim them down or something three or is it here in two where it talks about 2E business Commercial mixed use industrial I was looking at the hours and e that's e two e yep that I thought I'm sorry I thought you said three second sentence in 2E is does the city enforce this right at this point we work on a complaint basis and then yeah that's a great answer i' love it yeah I know Claire what have you seen for the hours I mean um Susan makes a good point that security lighting is likely also going to be now maybe it's something that just the lights along the build like appr pro security lighting you know maybe when they've submitted their and go through their site plan review process is is determined yeah the ones here around your building that are downward facing they're not going to jut out into your neighbors and they're not going to be super visible from the street you I'm thinking of a really large property that has parking lot style lighting and then their own Lighting on the building I think Lighting on the building for for that security for cameras Etc not that stuff can't happen in your parking lot I get that too but that's what's going to cause I think you know when it when you think about zoning and why it was likely written this way is Aesthetics and compatibility with the surrounding areas in the neighborhood so maybe it's also something that's looked at I mean this does specify commercial and Industrial businesses um so that's likely already you know gathered in a similar area surrounding other uses that is you know like that um but I would say say that I would also probably argue or know vened meetings where a business owner would argue what Susan's Point has been of well that's my that's my security lighting I don't want Vandal vandals you know hanging around if there's if it's lit they're less likely to be attracted to my site while I'm not there while I'm closed you know so that's it's hard it's hard I like the concept of the the brighter motion detected yeah yeah or you could allow a limit on um lumens you know that at night you can't be at your full brightness after a certain amount of hours right you can be at a percentage of your full lit or a specification that it has to be downcast lighting it has to be directional down directional away from the street or your neighbors or and that's like that's already in here as a regulation anyways um but if you wanted to kind of specify what that security lighting might look like that you know that could be an option be a little more descriptive there would would it help after the word lighting and that second sentence to add in something with reduced lumens or intensity or something yes I don't know if we even specify a specific number just 50% or something to right or on a motion detector system or motion motion AC ated or yep okay anything else Susan no sir I I hate to poke the bear but I have one thought right below this I reading this again today uh H that's on the screen yeah all new light Fishers must use the LED technology unless otherwise approved by the city council first of all I don't think city council would ever approve anything different I don't know that we would ever take a request to not have LED lighting to the council I suppose someone could ask seems un likely but more importantly what I brought to CLA earlier today is Led technology is the current best technology for lighting as I understand it five or 10 years from now there might be a different type of lighting that's even better so we've got a specific term there that if somebody's really reading the code down to every little last word they're going to say well we have to use LED and five or 10 years from now might be something different or better so I don't know if we need to add some language in there after LED technology that says something of effect of or the best available technology or best I I current technology so I throw that out for discussion are there high Lumin low powerder so similar High Lumin low power that's the advantage of LED right it's it's high Lumin with low power but when I read that I thought I thought back to we're trying to anytime we reference State statutes we don't give the specific State Statute number because we just say as in state statutes because those state statut numbers change and then our zoning code would be is are we are we boxing ourselves in or do we let the next plan set of plane Commissioners and staff worry about when the next best lighting technology comes along to change this part of the code we frequently use the term best practice true and I think that we could say um all new light fixtures must use best practices as as toine for Energy Efficiency because that's the point of this is the Energy Efficiency yeah so maybe that's how you connect it or you could say the high Loom and low power and then have such as led that doesn't mean you can only use that but we could have an example or best practices such as led you know that's an option you guys got we're we're doing lots of head dotting with the best practice for high Loom and low energy such as led we're all we're all doing the Bobble here yeah and I think that would you know it's okay to have an example in there that doesn't mean it's the only thing you can utilize um it's likely what's going to come from forward in the next like we said in this for for I'm not an electrical engineer so I don't ask me yeah okay so we're going to add that in yeah yeah we'll amend uh no I brought that up energy requirements Commissioners any other comments I had a question here on 2B uh page 73 of our packet it says intensity intensity no light source or combination thereof will cast light on a public Street shall exceed one foot candle meter reading does that mean all lighting or can the city or state put up street lights that are brighter than that this is lighting that's privately installed oh privately okay that would encroach onto a public Street yeah that's it's we don't get to regulate the state or the city and they lighting okay do as I say not as I do well the street lights on the street are going to have different needs and requirements than parking lot lighting that might spill into or over into a street now would you allow temporary lighting like if they were having events or would that be covered somewhere else I think we I would think we'd have that covered somewhere else but I couldn't tell you where yeah I mean I know there's temporary holiday lighting you know that's allowed in the um but I don't know if there's special I'm not seeing anything for like special like construction let's say lighting that might be a little brighter and into the evening well you know emergency lighting could you can have that as bright as you want well if there's a four car pile up and they need to bring out lighting to we're not going to get in the way of Public Safety that's again the the light police won't be out the other police will yeah ex correct any other comments this is a public hearing if you wish to speak to this issue of both our definitions and lighting or give comments on the Landscaping which we didn't cover you're more than welcome again we ask you step up to the lect state your name and address for the record spend a couple minutes giving you our thoughts and then uh once we've heard from everyone we will close the public hearing and bring it back for uh recommendations from the Planning Commission so at that we'll open the public hearing at 88:13 p.m. do anyone wish to speak to these applications Ken do we have anyone online no sir we'll wait a few seconds to see if they come running in from the hallway if they just got the notice now I'll ask one more time does anyone wish to speak to these applications and can I assume there's nothing to be read into the minutes either no we touched on earlier what the C administrator talked about all right see no one come forth will close to public hearing at 8:14 p.m. Commissioners what's your pleasure and just so you know we again are making recommendations and I'll need a we're going to need three motions tonight one for the definitions and by the way the ordinance is on page 42 of your packet if you want that the lighting one is on page 75 once those two are complete we will um make a motion to table the Landscaping I will make a motion that we recommend ordinance Amendment titled um E5 chapter 153 section 13.01 0 regarding the amendments to the definitions I have a motion do I have a second I'll second it I have a motion and a second any discussion point of clarification is that with the changes in discussion that we had earlier Tim yes yes I don't want to assume anything but for the record thank you thank you for keeping us on a straight and narrow any discussion hearing none all those in favor signif by saying I I I I opposed extensions motion carries I'll make a motion that we accept ordinance amending title XV chapter 153 section 15374 [Music] 153.7 15384 15385 and 153 130 pertaining to the lighting regulations as well as the uh discussed changes I have a motion do I have a second second Motion in a second any discussion discussion on a motion hearing none all those in favor signif I saying I I I opposed extensions motion carries before I make a motion typically when we do a table we have a comeback date do you have one for us or we are shooting for four weeks from tonight the second meeting in March y I'll make a motion to table the Landscaping section of the ordinance until the second Planning Commission meeting of March second have a motion in a second it's an undatable motion all those in favor signif saying I I I opposed extensions motion carries thank you all good work all right thank you Claire for coming this evening absolutely thank you for your hard work on this pleasure we get paid the big bugs yeah Cy have anything up for discussion tonight uh no I couple updates but nothing on discussion all right I'll come right back to you on the updates we have our uh esteemed council person here tonight Mr LaRon uh anything you'd like to add today esteemed very very well said sir good evening chairman and Commissioners um just of a couple quick things from the last meeting that we had in the city council on the 27th of January uh we heard from the Serene conent plan that you guys made recommendations or whatnot on that uh the council looked at that and agreed with your suggestions and things and moved forward with that concept planned the other one the sh sha Shala Shala thank you sir uh that concept plan again uh you guys have made several comments to him as far as what his lot sizes and things like that went again the council agreed with uh your recommendations on some of that stuff and also the engineer had made comments that there's uh little be there are some utility issues also with that property too so um they just made some suggestions to them and I think they're going to go back and review their stuff maybe for uh another shot at things so that's the two things that stood out here for our meeting thank you any questions to the council Mr chair yes do you want to report on last night's meeting or Monday night's meeting the NorthShore Trail on um yeah on Monday's meeting the NorthShore Trail uh we had a uh workshop and uh there was very well attended and a lot of people shared a lot of interest in a bike or walking trail in the area of Northshore running along through um our concerns were if it came down through norshore probably not to continue past 230 fth street so the city engineer also brought some plans and stuff to and showed us a area down 235th and how it wine through and come out like ke Waton or an area out that way um there's just some budget concerns in that area and I'm sure Ken could maybe address some of that stuff as well so yeah so to back up the what started this there's a maintenance project proposed for Northshore Trail basically all the way around the lake and that was just as I understand replacing the pavment replacing the Cs no change of the ditches no adding a trail that kind of thing there are several residents in along Northshore or near norshore trail that think there should be some kind of pedestrian way or bike path or both along the road because it's narrow and twisting and those kind of things but looking at it it's what6 or8 million to add a trail it's a ton of money and then you're redoing the ditches you're redoing the drainage you're moving you're probably removing trees you're moving more power poles now you're dealing with the Watershed District on storm water management certainly anything can be done anything can be engineered but it's not in the budget as I understand it is that a fair summary that's correct that they're probably going to be T if one way or another they will probably be taking uh some of your property on Northshore Trail to develop that due to the ditching area and stuff like that so they would probably acquire um some of your property and they would have to move some things too so phone polls your mailboxes your some of your uh CTS and stuff like that so that used to be a County Road and so it should have had a wider RightWay along its entire length than a typical City street yeah sure they live on Northshore no they they didn't do that though oh God's P yeah my property line is probably 15 feet from the edge of the pavement which is a pre-standard boulevard yeah in a lot of C in a lot of streets but I think there are places where there might be a 5- foot Boulevard well there are places I'm not sure that are on private property yeah that I knew yeah lot of them just with wetlands and and things like that some of that area is just I don't know it's it's would be kind of hard to conceive trying to do some of that with all that goes into it so I think at this point we're just kind of like tabling it until we get some more information and things like that on things so there'll be more forthcoming um I think as far as uh staff updates and the city engineer and stuff like that when you live on a street it is a normal expectation that you should be able to walk on the shoulder or the side of the street without taking your life in your hands and in Northshore Trail that's not possible NOP yeah there's people out know today it's a nice day out and there's some people out walking their dog and I was kind of peering out my front door just and people are zigging by there it's 30 m an hour in that area and I know the electronic sign down there is getting a workout because that thing just constantly is flashing at them so but um we'll see how it goes it's going to take some more progression I think from the city engineer and maybe some more input from the public so but again budget dollars are also is always a topic of discussion thank you sir thank you kindly folks couple other things if I may you're all aware of the training tomorrow night starts at 530 be upstairs community room maybe a little light supper will be provided couple hours uh primar primarily led by our City attorney of roles and responsibilities does and don'ts is both council members commission members staff members and how we can all work together to stay legal and play nice together in the sandbox the key part being stay legal absolutely uh our new city administrator started Mark stats last huh St stats thank you uh week ago yesterday on the 17th and uh in fact yeah some of his comments were what we brought up tonight so he is reading our Planning Commission materials which is good he's getting up to speed on that uh I I just was reading I just got a little information today it just kep accidentally I wasn't necess looking for it I think you Hall all should be aware that Highway 97 is going to get reconstructed that really is going to happen there's going to be an open house coming up in next week or the week after here in March uh to talk about it but it's going to be done in two phases with the West End down by Hornsby and loves to Everton that'll be done 2025 and then from Everton to the roundabout by Highway 61 will be done in 2026 and as I understand at the West End when they do that that road will be completely shut down because it's 15 or 20 feet of muck that have to come out and they can't keep traffic going while doing the construction I don't know the exact start date but uh it'll be coming the information session is Tuesday March 11th from 4: to 6: here or upstairs or yeah so if anyone wants to know uh we will have a meeting in two weeks we've got another concept plan to look at and then uh a site plan revision for Quick Trip they want to add more parking because they're very busy where the backside they own the whole property so on the east side of their existing building that place is packed all the time so that's that and a more uh Hidden Creek future phases in a concept plan they're going great guns out there that is all I have unless you have other questions for me questions for Ken Clarity have anything to add I don't think so we're just working on those final kind of um you know what we had remaining for the landscape plan that was why we tabled it and it'll be coming back to you was to really look at the plant unit definitions and how that was going to be calculated uh since that was you know a primary discussion with the commission was we get these concept plans all the time they can't meet our minimum requirements when we use the perimeter calculation we had come up with some others they still aren't mathing super great so we're still trying to find that best um formula we'll call it kind of that sweet spot of requiring plantings but not being so ridiculous that they can't possibly meet our minimum numbers and then taking it back too much that they only have to plant like three trees so trying to come up with that uh sweet spot like Ken said so that's what you can expect in a month I mean the rest of the ordinance but that is the main delay on that will we see other parts of the ordinance at the same meeting I don't think so we haven't really we haven't had our next staff meeting to discuss the next step as to what what we'll tackle next it's a good question that's a great question well you know I told Abby that one of the reasons I reup for the last three years was to push this ordinance through y pushing all right thank you Claire for coming this evening abely thank you Tim I have nothing Susan Jessie I have nothing so with that the chair is looking for a motion to adjourn so moved I have a second I'll second it I have a motion a second a non-debatable motion all those in favor signal by by saying I I opposed extensions motion carries thank you very much for attending tonight see you all tomorrow [Music]