"e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e welcome to the March 3rd 2025 Planning Commission meeting if all Commissioners will please mute your microphone until it is your turn to speak that would be appreciated members of the public may join using a PC Mac or iPad iPhone or Android device members of the public can access the meeting online at the city's website and public can ask questions and comments during the meeting by using the link to the virtual meeting to join and submitting the questions via the online Q&A feature within the meeting questions regarding this meeting can also be asked during regular business hours at City Hall if you are a member of the public and wish to speak on a topic please fill out one of the yellow forms at the back of the chambers and provide that sheet to staff you will be called on after the project in reference is presented residents viewing online please add your questions to the Q&A Fields along with your name and address and with that we will call the meeting to order all right right first um item on the agenda we will have Dan doing the roll call thank you chair John Jarett here saurin Shaw here Marsha Kennedy here Shannon Olen here Thomas Harrington here John colum here Stephanie Swanson here Adrina nalling here Daniel here chair we have qum all right thank you very much and then for discussion items this evening evening our first item on that agenda is the Red Rock Elementary Farmers Market interim conditional use permit project number 20-22 d570 and we'll hand that back to you Dan thank you chair uh St Paul growers association has submitted an application for Woodburry Farmers Market to be located at 3311 Commonwealth Avenue at Redrock Rock Elementary School the property is zoned R4 Urban residential district and is guided as public semi-public on the land use plan the city requires an interm conditional use permit uh for farmers markets to ensure compliance with zoning ordinance standards and review parking signage duration uh neighborhood impacts and the like an interm use is defined as the temporary use of property until a particular date until the occurrence of a particular event or until the zoning regulations no longer permits it the applicant has an interm conditioned use interim conditional use permit for a farmers market at Central Park but due to the construction of the site was not able to operate there last year due to the last minute change of venue in 2024 the applicant was allowed to operate at Red Rock Elementary under a temporary outdoor event allowance due to the applicants preference to return to Red Rock Elementary location in 2025 they would be required to obtain a separate interm conditional use per as they are here today the proposed Farmers Market at this location will operate on mornings from 8:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. they anticipate having roughly 35 local vendors access to the site is provided via Commonwealth Avenue from Radio Drive the proposed site plan identifies 59 parking spaces to be dedicated for vendors and pedestrian circulation when the market is in operation the market managers will ensure barriers cones be placed around the market to avoid any circulation issues adequate parking is provided in the remainder of the school parking lot the school does not have any programming on Sunday morning and would not conflict with this use a neighborhood meeting was held on February 24th 2025 with two attes present and another two residents contacting sap beforehand questions center around how long the use is proposed to be uh circulation of internal traffic and parking locations the residents I spoke with offered support for the project with that staff recommends approval of the interim conditional use permit for the farmers market project number 20-22 D 0057 for far Red Rock Farmers Market staff and the applicant are on hand for any questions all right thank you very much would the applicant like to add anything additional at this time hello everyone uh my name is Lindsay stoner I'm the assistant director of the St Paul grow Association and I would just like to uh say we would really love to remain at Red Rock for this uh opportunity to have a farmers market it's a really good farmers market and the community has shown us a lot of support um even with our move last year so I just ask your um consideration for this market and thank you for um seeing this all right thank you very much have there been any yellow sheets received or questions submitted via teams not at this time chair all right great the Q&A will stay open for the duration of the project discussion if there are any questions please enter them and staff will read them for the commission and with that we'll open it up to members of the Planning Commission for questions and we'll start with commissioner Colum you chair um just a few questions um start with staff um the the parking and traffic plan that was submitted for this interim um cup is there are there any differences U I know they I think I read in the staff report that they didn't go through this same process last year so are there any differences in how the parking and traffic plan was put together for 201 2 compared to last year in 2024 when it was their first year at this site I will defer to the applicant to discuss the uh traffic and flow um they kind of outlined uh parking that you see on the map uh that is the same parking that we had available last year for the market we had our handicapped spots kind of in that first row um to the left of the market um and then we had probably the bulk of people come through in front of the school and down to I think which is the uh School staff parking lot uh with that little circle down there um and then there is ample parking in the back to with the bus parking so I I I'm a customer I get a chance to go here uh multiple times last summer I think one of my questions or concerns having been there last year is um they believe the intent last year was if you were coming off Commonwealth Avenue you would come down um and you would hit that yellow easel that's down at the bottom and then you would be forced to go to the right to the parking area MH uh the flow of traffic then coming out of that parking area was intended to uh be right-and only and then out um I would have to say on like multiple occasions last year I saw cars coming from the I guess the right hand side uh in the wrong way sure down that bottom and so I don't know if that something maybe I was just lucky enough to see it a couple of times or if that's something that you all noticed in your operations plan if there's something either from a signage or from a staffing perspective that you have the wherewithal to address cuz I mean there were a couple of you got a lot of people walking and you got cars going different directions there is some potential safety hazards there so are you recommending instead of like taking the way around on the way out to just go up by the school again or well I I I think my view I think the plan as it was laid out is was is probably appropriate in terms of flowing traffic um out that uh common out to Commonwealth Avenue but if there's not a way to keep cars from going the wrong way down the east side of the farmers market then uh because there's not enough staff to monitor that then maybe there needs to be a different approach to that recomendation I think partway through the season we did uh work on mitigating that with some extra signage um and I mentioned this during the community meeting too but I'm working with Washington County uh ship uh so Statewide Health Improvement projects uh they offer money to farmers markets to buy like extra signage and stuff so I'm applying for a grant through them to really double down on the signage here and if that is kind of a pinch point that needs that signage that will definitely be taken into consideration this year and I I correct me if I'm wrong maybe I don't know I'm not at the bottom where the parking is that isn't connected to you cannot drive through that connection or you can I can't I can't recall to where the where the bus lane parking typically would be on the west side of the building you kind of have to hop a curb a little bit you could but it's it's intended to it's not intended to be it's for emergency vehicles it's not for us random folks but you have to be able to have folks exit out of that loop around the farmers market um regardless I think yeah when we initially drew the map when we first had to move here last year we wanted to have the market all the way to the grass but then we realized that that loop around is really crucial for traffic flow and the parking lot was very much designed in that way so we we kind of adapted the way that the market was laid out so that we could kind of enclose it all on that red square and keep that Loop available and and just we have like our vendors Vehicles kind of budding up to the side on the West End there so there's not really any like way customers can get in the way of that traffic there and then as Dan said we have like cones and then also bigger vehicles blocking off those curbs too to really not let people get into the carway there yeah yeah I don't know if it's just customers who are used to dropping their kids off at this location and think that that's a two-way around that yeah South South and Eastern side but uh just just an observation I would I would look at for this year okay thank you and then um uh Dan maybe a question for you uh just reading through the notes This is the End date I'm not clear on how the end date for the inter room cup works I think in the notes it says the the farmers market is scheduled to happen May through October every year but what would actually change the interim p is would be some sort of a change in the actual zoning of the site so does that mean if the applicant wanted to operate the farmers market in 2026 and 2027 under this interim cup they could yeah that that's correct unless there was a change in Zoning propos for the location it would require to come back through the interm conditional cup process and as it sits today the school doesn't have any programming on Sundays that's correct if the school change Ed that and there was some other programming um on a Sunday that they wanted to initiate would they be able to or because the applicant has this interim cup would they would they be limited in being able to do that the Farmers Market has an agreement with the school district so the school district would have the ability to terminate that agreement that would not have any uh correlation to the land use approvals that are in front of you this evening okay great and then I guess just for the applicant one other question um in the notes it's are you is the intent to stay on this site um or is the intent U to go back to the Central Park site in 2026 once construction's complete over there um it's honestly kind of up in the air um whenever we move a market it you know there's a little bit of shift in the amount of people that come and the amount of sales that our vendors see so we did see a little bit in of decline last year with this move but um aside from just that expected it was a really good market so we're kind of just seeing how this next season goes now that people know that we're in this location and we have ample time to get advertising and communication out to everybody um if this location uh really is a rock star this season I think we'll probably end up staying um kind of over at the Central Park location it's just a really busy intersection and we have people coming in and out of the YMCA and the library and everything so it's a little bit more hustle and bustle and it feels a little safer in this location um from our perspective so we'll see how it shakes out I don't really have an answer it kind of really depends on how this year goes okay well wish you luck thank you all right thank you chair all right thank you commissioner Kennedy well one of my questions was answered both at the neighborhood meeting and and hear about your anticipation for the growth uh in in that in this particular spot um if you how how far down did your attendance drop with the change do you think it's just an estimate I know um so last year was actually the first year I put together a report uh that kind of measures our success at our neighborhood markets um we run a uh tent at the markets where our staff is and we do e uh snap EBT transactions and cash token transac transactions so that's really kind of the only like uh quantitative data that we have on this Market we we do not ask our vendors for their sales records um so we saw about a 20% drop from uh Central Park to Red Rock um we also don't really have the means to watch the attendance it gets a little crazy as all of these things are happening at once so so that's really the only number we have to go on that's not to say that it did terribly worse though um maybe there was just less snap uh recipients that shopped there or maybe there was more people bringing cash you know so yes it was about a 20% from the one number category I had access to okay yeah and um so how much are the eggs at your Market oh man that's the question of the summer we're actually we're doing a new application for our whole organization right now we're like we need as many eggs as we can get in here so I I I don't have the answer to that one marketing growth factor in itself isn't it it really is yeah one sorry no go ahead one more question you had talked I think in the neighborhood meeting about possibility of an education tent for the children can you tell us about that a little just a moment yeah definitely um one of our big things that we are working on this year across all our markets is just really kind of building deeper ties with the communities that we're in so we have kind of space available for Community tables it's both a way that we can get kind of groups and organizations or like local business owners into the market to kind of get some uh FaceTime with uh residents of each of the cities um but it's also a way that we are raising funds for our operations um so we have like sliding SK fee scales of 0 to 100 for nonprofits in government and then 100 to 200 for like four profit businesses and this is just kind of a way to bring kind of activities and Communications and really connect the groups in the community um we had a couple attend Woodberry last year um we had like an Irish dance group that was there we had um I think like a robotics uh group kind of doing like a little presentation um and we also are kind of equipping our staff with a little bit more kid activities as well we have a little goat that we hide around the market and then kids can go find it amongst like produce or maple syrup and then bring it back and they'll get a little prize and we'll talk to them about that product that was kind of a long answer sorry that's all right and I'm what I'm thinking is when you have those kinds of activities that's going to grow your Market too and I think there's space in this area to accommodate that growth so far yeah it's a really nice size lot um we actually have a pretty unique configuration compared to all the rest of our markets so it's kind of fun to be able to manipulate the the kind of flow of people through it but also yeah have that extra room for like that Community Connection and and space for just kind of like a fun outing for a family to go to rather than just like a grocery shopping trip thank you thank you commissioner Swanson so thank you I um I live in this area and so I'm a bit more familiar with it um I actually just had two questions for staff about the conditions uh condition five talks about four temporary signs but on the graphic that we're looking at I see six and now we're talking about adding more signs and so I just wanted to make sure we have the flexibility to add those extra directional signs and that this can condition gets updated accordingly yeah they will actually have to update the graphic the four signs are for off-site signs they can't have more signs onsite for safety purposes and directional purposes these are more signs that indicate uh the actual Market being uh open okay so could we edit the condition then to say four temporary signs located offsite and then any directional signage on site doesn't eat up that maximum amount of signage allowed cuz if we need it I want you to be able to put 20 signs saying go this way don't go that way and then my other question is about parking um Commonwealth is a little tight and I I'm concerned about people parking on the street can we specifically ban Street street parking and say if you're here for this use we have plenty of parking over here we have plenty of parking over here yeah we could certainly if the commission wanted to add a No Parking or the market shall uh actively work to limit parking along Commonwealth that would probably be the most effective there was um sorry to get a little Grim but there was actually just last week a kid was hit on Commonwealth um during school pickup so it's tight if people are trying to turn in and you can't see around I would really love to to be no onsite I'm sorry no on street parking specifically because that just happened and I have no other questions I'm supportive of the project all right thank you commissioner Jarrett thank you chair um uh I have visited this farmers market with my wife myself and very happy to have a farmers market love it I I'm curious why this site was picked uh versus something that has maybe a larger surface area like Lake uh maybe one of you know the middle school or um you know even the high the uh parking lot for the high school or down at M Health Fair View um is this was this site picked by the school district or or how did that happen yeah you just named like all the calls I made last last spring um M Health fa viiew they were really interested in uh bringing us in but then they ran it up the ladder and they got a no um which was really unfortunate because it was kind of right across from where we were before um but uh and then yeah we connected with the school district and I initially had actually asked them about the high school parking lot and then said what about Red Rock and we said okay so that's basically kind of the how the conversations went okay thank you I my concern is the parking and the traffic it gets extremely tight I have seen uh parking on Commonwealth and I've actually seen them parking in that little space between the first house there and uh that Commonwealth Court um and for some reason people do not use the sidewalk or that path uh going west if they're going to park kind of down in that teacher parking area everybody cuts across that grassy area in the sidewalk and you have people also parking there which reduces that to like one lane and then you got people walking in front of Park cars and it's just I find this really a nightmare uh being somebody who visits this the parking is just the flow is terrible um um you know I I would like to see this in a venue or the flow fixed so that people I would even go as far as saying no parking on that kind of drop off circular area to keep the traffic uh so it it can't it can't be congested there's people who stop in the second lane and let people off um and for some reason it's like people don't get all the way in into the parking lot behind the vendors so more signage definitely or more direction or uh you know even some cardboard sticks along Commonwealth Avenue that says no parking because I've seen it and it just makes it even more congested at that intersection when somebody Parks right there by the C the cesac Commonwealth Court so I I'm all for the farmers Market I love it uh great to have it in the community I just I gez I wish the district would say a better place with a little bit bger bigger surface parking and a little bit better flow yeah so at the uh neighborhood meeting last week um a resident also kind of brought up that maybe we shouldn't have parking kind of in that inner Square there um one thing that you know we'll take that into consideration as we're kind of really mapping that out this Year too if we're approved um but that first row I think we would like to make it handicap only because it's a really long distance to get there from any other parking um but the second row maybe we can just eliminate that one entirely just say no we don't even try to get in here um but yeah we'd like to keep some handicap for sure just to accommodate everybody and I have seen people park in that far Southern lot um but then they just are kind of confused they don't know where to really walk so um and I then they're lugging stuff along ways watermelons and stuff so but thank you thank you very much that's that's all I have chair all right thank you commissioner Harrington um thank you chair um I think uh I think having a farmers market in Woodburry is is amazing because it it sets up an opportunity for all of us to get together in one place and so a lot of what I'm going to talk about here is focused on that uh first a couple of questions to staff so you talked about the application this application at Red Rock would be good until it's terminated due to zoning so next year they wouldn't have to come back and apply 2026 2027 unless there were some changes yep through the intern conditional use perit process we review it from a staff standpoint so we're reviewing what went well and what didn't go well so I'll have a conversation with the applicant about parking and maybe we can talk through items that we can improve for next year but it's brought to Council on a consent agenda every year um and they either vote uh for against the P for renewing the applications so if the applicant next year decided to go to another location it would be a new icre okay um second question um I think you I think you alluded to this and I drove past and it doesn't look like it's going to be ready but Central Park is probably not going to be in a condition to allow the farmers market this year no I believe anticipated opening is a fall of this year so it would be past Central Park or past the time of the farmers market okay um from a parking and circulation standpoint um does Staff feel that there are any issues with this particular site compared to the Central Park site any were there any issues there did you did you see any issues on this site if you were to compare and contrast yeah I think what we saw when the farmers market was at Central Park is what was was raised which is there are other competing uses that are occurring at the same time at Central Park and there's pros and cons within that you want to have activity you want people at your facility for different reasons and coming together as a community so that in itself is a pro and a con but there is um some safy the benefits to having a market at a kind of independent site so the vehicles that are coming to the site are coming to be a part of the farmers market they're not looking you know they're not may not be moving through for another activity sure understood um I understand that the applicant especially hav been at the Red Red Rock site for a year may prefer that site over the Central Park site um but when I think of many other community farmers markets it it feels like they occur more in the center of the city in a central location um and I think we can all agree that Woodberry doesn't really have a main street I mean we have a city center which is a place the intersection of Radio Drive uh and Valley Creek Road so there's a there's a concentration of Civic buildings and there's a concentration of places that the community can gather and so um I think about a farmers market and I think if that was within the city center wouldn't that help to um establish a stronger sense of core in a downtown that is struggling to to be the center of our city and um it just it feels like maybe there's better locations and if you if you could indulge me I I took a look at the uh comprehensive plan 2040 comprehensive plan and just wanted to think about City Center and so City Center is a place it's at the as the as the comp plan describes it it's at the intersection of Radio Drive and Valley Creek Road and if I could paraphrase some of the things that I found here City Center is a major focus of the Woodberry Community it's a place to shop work play and gather City Center services or serves as the focal point for community activities services and Gatherings and so some of the goals of the city center area I'll just read three of the five uh one is to provide public services in close proximity to one another and centrally located in the community uh second one is provide public spaces that invite people to casually interact with one another and the third would be to provide a wide range of retail professional and Civic services so so City Center has uh through the through zoning and through uh planning is is trying to create that sense of I'll say downtown and I'll use it with air quotes right because we don't have a main street so um I I just where I land on this is it doesn't feel like uh having it a mile and a half down the road from City Center is the best possible place so I guess I I was thinking so where could that happen if if Central Park is a challenge what other places that have similar um access similar parking within City Center where does that what do we have well City Hall is a place and I did a little bit of counting of parking spaces to try to figure out the square footage and they're actually fairly comparable the parking lot that we have right outside this building it's got a traffic signal easy in andout and it's within the city center so that was my first location and I thought maybe it's not within City Center but where else do we all gather for community events and I thought of OJ boy Park I mean there's Woodbury days there's the fireworks the high school is there it's it's it's good access that might be another good location so as I thought of other as I thought of this and and looked at it it just felt like we needed to have a farmers market closer into our Central Area so that's that's where I land on that yeah thank you uh commissioner Harrington a couple of uh thoughts to respond to that one uh historically prior to the farmers market being located at Central Park it was at City Hall so it was at City Hall for several years one of the challenges at being at City Hall is now with some of the the fleet services that are here on the Eastern parking area um mixing in public with into those areas in place in the market um stunted the growth that was the reason it originally left and relocated to Central Park I think there will be an interest from the city to have dialogue with the with the The Growers Association to relocated at Central Park I think that's certainly where the community's investment is and we're proud of that investment and it's going to be a beautiful facility when it opens and it certainly is the communities Gathering Place so I would I would Envision that those conversations occur and this becomes more of a stop Gap for this year as well as last year um ojibway I we have had conversations at ojibway Park and we've also had it at M Health Fairview Sport Center as two alternate locations uh for possible uh Farmers Market Resurrection Church had one last year as well uh I think the key aspects and and one of the challenges that could occur at ojibway is the lack of traffic that is going through that from a major roadway standpoint which is one of the reasons why this is an attractive site certainly mark efforts are a big part of why people go to farmers markets but seeing that and planting that seed that maybe next week you can go back to that after you see that on your on the major roadways that's one of the reasons why we regularly see these more Suburban uh farmers markets along major roadways so I want to make sure I heard this correctly so it sounds like from a staff not to speak for all staff but the perspective would be Central Park would be the the preferred location for the Farmers Market yeah I think that's a you know certainly a natural fit based on the project goals for Central Park and the overall investment I think the conversations that need to occur after getting back into the facility is what are some of the new traffic flows with some of the new Investments that we're seeing there um and what portion of that site would be uh best to have um a Farmers Market located within that great thanks thank you for all that information that's all I have thank you all right thank you commissioner Shaw thank you um I like many of the others have already said um you know like the farmers market you know visited a few times not just last year but even years before um I think it's a good you know Community uh tool for summer is how I look at it uh my wife actually goes every weekend U and she loves it and I just have to control what she buys because use everything she bu she also wrote a good article about you guys last year right as part of what newset so uh I love to see that so that you know that's all positive and we'd like to see it continue lot of questions that I had were already answered based on the questions were previously asked around the traffic and so on so forth because I think you know one of the things I observed a few times that I accompanied my last year is because this is actually in a school parking lot and the traffic flow is designed for school right and anyone who actually dropped off kids at school know how the traffic flow is um essentially you are occupying the parking lot of the school right and and so so that's what causes the issue with respect to you know how does the traffic flow if your parking lots not The Barking Lot right I mean so so I think um that needs to be optimized I feel uh very very strongly especially the what shows up as parking at the bottom of that graphic there um that's you know that actually doesn't have good Outlet you know is how I feel uh and so so that's what confuses the traffic flow in that case so you know maybe you know my view is a little different as like an engineer I would say just like Park on where the bus parking lot is and and that way you actually get everything you know out of the way uh you of course have to find an access from the bus parking lot without going through the school right to the farmers market but that's that's one thing and then I strongly agree about having the handicap parking you know where you actually said should be there because everything else becomes too far for handicap parking so um I also think that you know uh Central Park eventually when it's done would be a good location from the perspective of what commissioner Herington was bringing up as in what is a Main Street Woodbury um the Central Park location also when I had been there one of the things that I observed is it's not the benefit you have with red rock is there is no school program going on at the same time right uh but Central Park is not like that Central Park has got the library traffic it has got the YMCA traffic and so you actually see lot of parking congestion is how I call it when when the farmers market is at at Central Park and so that's something that should be thought about when eventually it moves back to Central Park is maybe one side of the parking lot is only available for farmers market and the other side is for parking like it's kind of like now in in some sense right um so um so that's what I had and you know I think this 20% drop in sales that you mentioned uh is that actually footfall uh of traffic or because you don't track sales you said right so so what is that is there actually less people showing up no not necessarily it's just the transactions that our staff see at the information booth so that's only going to be um we have snap recipients uh coming and scanning their EBT cards we give them coins and Market bucks to spend in the market and then people we also like act as an ATM essentially so if a farmer only accepts cash but you only have a card you can come scan your card with our staff and then get tokens to spend at the market so that's the only kind of number that I had eyes on um so that's the only number that was measured as that drop okay so only the staff driven transactions because that that would be a concern right as in for sustainability of of farmers market in the city so that's all I had commission uh chair thank you very much commissioner enging um both my questions were already answered by previous people that asked I just think that the farmers market it's going to be like a really good addition to the community especially now cuz I know of it cuz last summer I didn't know about it and my family usually um goes like down to St Paul and Minneapolis since where we get our like fresh produce and I think um now that it's there's one here and that we know about it that a lot more people are going to like come and show up and I think that there's just going to be a lot more people to enjoy the activities and things that go around them go around in the market especially because um I also think it's going to be a good um place for like my peers to like even go and just like ga gather there and you know just purchase some food or do some of the activities because usually um we would like or my peers speaking um we go to like in the summer like there's Woodberry days but and there's like other things that can we can um entertain ourselves with you know during the summer months and I think that this would also be a good one to um explore and go to and that's all I have all right thank you very much commissioner Cho yeah um I've just got one question does the farmers market have any organization like a volunteering organization program um sometimes uh I this is my going into my second year as the assistant director I know that we have had a little bit more robust of a program in the past um we do well one of the other programs I run which actually happens at this market is called produce for the people where uh vendors can um contribute food at the end of the day that might be left over they receive a dollar per pound for everything that they contribute and then it goes to local food shelves so that's actually a program that I would like to really kind of get some volunteers to help with this year it's a lot of like lifting like 50 lb boxes of produce and putting it into a truck uh we work with a really great organization called North Country Food Alliance and they do all of our distribution from that and um it it is a Washington Ramsey County grant that pays for the dollar per pound that gets to the farmers so um the volunteer thing uh is something that I would like to kind of get a little bit more in action this summer um and we have had it before my time as well just not a lot recently okay yeah I was just wondering because they could probably help with a to a boy cars parking in that narrow parking spot as well to ensure like no one parks there and and just you help out clean up the area after the day is done and all that stuff yeah that's a great idea thank you thank you love you all right thank you very much um my questions are mostly on the same theme but going back to 2024 they did not come before Planning Commission why do they have to this year when they didn't have to last year last year they ran a shortened campaign and so businesses within Woodbury have what's called special event permits so in this case the school was the business and the city allowed the market to operate under that because because the amount of time it would have taken the market to do the public hearing process the neighborhood meeting and so on they would not have been able to operate the market last year okay so we it was also a bit of a pilot program for this site and so this application in front of you this evening can then be informed by that trial run okay thank you um when we talk about school programming on Sundays does that include the baseball field and soccer field usage uh I don't know if I know the answer to that okay I don't believe it would be utilized in the Sunday mornings those are generally a lower peak time for those field uses within the community overall but I don't believe there's a pro prohibition of that and we probably would have seen conflict last year I presume then aged okay um so if I also remember but correct me if I'm wrong when we reviewed the resurrection um Farmers Market they had the ability to do food trucks does this site have that same ability under this permit yeah they would have the ability to do some food trucks as part of this okay um so I think the oh the only other um item when it comes to the termination of this interm cup is if for any reason um we have a different applicant if you will or they want to hand over the ownership of this farmers market does that terminate this iup uh it likely would um as you see within the actual permit doc document that's within your packet it is issued directly to St The Growers Association thank you um so I guess then just a follow up on the couple of other items when it comes to the signage I had some questions too on that um recommendation just for clarification um so I I also would just agree in maybe some more just details to that recommendation as it comes to the off-site signs because I was also wondering about vendor signs and things like that more so to protect the ability to have more signs because um I think on top of you maybe some modifications to to item number five I would also be in support of temporary signs demand parking on Commonwealth Avenue uh just to help with the flow of traffic if that's already challenge challenging and then um if the if if if possible and if the commission is also in support of it having additional language about mandat signs for traffic flow um the reason why I would also like to see that become a mandatory recommendation is if and correct me if I'm wrong again I think through the conversation there's not arrows on here but we'd be really looking for a counterclockwise flow around the parking lot or around the red which does conflict with the striping and the painting so it allows for natural confusion for folks haven't been to the Commonwealth or to the Red Rock Park or Red Rock School the North south and east side is all striped as two-way so just to ensure that there is some sort of Direction um to help or hopefully ease a little bit of that confusion I would I would propose recommending mandatory signs for a traffic flow pattern chair I have drafted a few conditions for commission uh review okay uh modification two condition number five that would be the applicant shall be allowed four temporary signs one sign shall not one sign shall not exceed 24 4 squ ft in area not more than 6 ft in height temporary directional signs must not exceed 4 squ ft and be located on site at least 15 ft and then the remaining portions no further edits so really deleting the terms of the other temporary and then also excuse me I think I forgot to add in advance of the four temporary would be off-site so applicant shall be allowed four offsite temporary signs in the first sentence an additional condition of approval would be prior to opening uh of the market for the season staff and the applicant shall meet onsite to identify final traffic flow and of traffic flow signage and Cone locations and also a modification an additional sign condition that identifies the market shall actively enforce no parking along Commonwealth Avenue can I ask a question about that please feel free to come on up so so if we're talking about like doing the kind of like stick it in the ground kind of no parking along Commonwealth how how far up Commonwealth would you recommend going with that we would identify that on that sidewalk okay wonderful with the no parking on Commonwealth signs be included in the four offsite signs they would not be okay I'm sorry to chair I just have a question about the I'm sorry on the no parking signs mhm um do we have any record of neighborhood complaints about parking on Commonwealth or any of the side streets from when they were uh at this site last year I have not received any uh from staff stand Point uh from emails or calls with this application I guess one of my concerns with that I guess that would be condition 11 or that that condition on the no parking signs is we're tasking the applicant to spend money on these signs that at least between no record of complaints last year and nothing that came out of the neighborhood meeting on February 24th there subsequent Communications that the actual immediate neighborhood is concerned about it so I I just I have concerns about that particular condition that we're burdening the applicant with additional cost when the when the immediate neighborhood is not communicating that it's an issue yeah I think um I think that's a fair challenge my thought is it's it's still risk mitigation and I'd hate to react in terms of um an issue and versus be more proactive and trying to avoid something versus reacted reacting to something um I moved from Commonwealth road so I as well was close to this and very familiar with the narrowness of the streets and um I think even based off the situation that you even just shared with school pickup and drop off those are people who are very familiar with the traffic flow patterns and if they're seeing accidents happening there where children have been hit to me that looks like enough of a justification if you will to try to be more clear on traffic flow that even goes against what people who are accustomed to are used to um I don't feel super passionate but just giving you know another perspective for us to consider um so with that um are there any other additional questions or thoughts even on the parking from Commissioners I had one question for staff this uh South lot the the staff parking lot is that required parking for the farmers market do we need those stalls yeah I would anticipate the those stalls on the southide will be needed for the operation okay do you the applicant do you anticipate having food trucks um yes uh last year we had egg roll Queen there and we also had a coffee truck um we are we are evaluating our relationship with food trucks as an organization right now currently um but I would anticipate we will at least have one probably there it's nice too to be able to get a bite to eat while you're out shopping so yes I think we will I I was just kind of spitballing in my head of what if we made the drop off line handicap parking and so nobody was going into this square and you had food trucks along the South Edge and just the vendors parked on the west Edge so if we if we have to have that parking lot at the South though that kind of gets rid of that idea the vendors actually are going to all have their vehicles within that red square so the vendors don't move their vehicles outside of the market at all they basically kind of set up their tents right at the tailgate of their trucks or Vans um and with the food trucks we last year what we did was the curbs on the north we positioned the trailers like the food trucks in those to kind of block off people going through there inadvertently but I think we could we we ulate these kind of trailers a lot at our park uh in our different parking lots to kind of control different zones and stuff so I think that would be a possibility to consider too is maybe manipulating them in a different way to block off other areas all right all right are there any other additional questions commissioner Harrington yeah yes I'd like to go back to the to what I was mentioning before um so I want to be clear um this this would not be my personal location for the farmers market um but I did hear that Central Park is not available and that would be staff's first choice I don't want to put words in your mouth but is that location preferred over Red Rock yeah I don't know if I can comment for staff including Parks inter but I can comment for myself it would be certainly my recommendation okay from a standpoint of creating that Community element that farmers market certainly can be and you had said that you thought there were challenges with the city hall site I do based on the past experiences when this when it was here and how they have expanded and grown which is a positive it did outgrow the space here and that's what necessitated the move well I would say that it sounds like this at this moment is the best location or is a good location um but what I would ask is that in the conditions thinking about the fact that next year Central Park is going to be available is that can we make this inter room condition of use perade good for one year requiring the applicant to come back I assume to have it back to the to the Central Park location next year and hopefully every year after that is that possible and and I ask that but I don't invite others to I want to invite others to weigh in on what I just said I I just go on record I I support a one- year versus a limitless I say Limitless I I support a one-year interim Cup on this so we can evaluate and the business can reevaluate this site versus potentially a Central Park site for 2026 I would second that I think it needs to have a limit because I think there are better sites with the traffic congestion that we could look at and I think uh you know the Y uh the library all the coffee places the kowalskis it's just so much better suited over there for Intermodal Transportation people bike there people walk there there's higher density there's you know a lot more Town Homes there's apartments it just seems like people want to get their coffee and go to the farmers market they want to go to the library they want to go to the Y whatever it is there just seems to be a Synergy there that I think this site does not have and it does not surprise me that you had you only had a 20% drop in in visits I would have suspected this would have been a lot less but the the traffic flow here is just not ideal so I would I would definitely support a onee I personally think a one year would be too short I think even if we're trying to look at the benefits and way the pros and cons you I think I could be supportive in maybe two or three years but having this back in front of us a year from now I'm not sure how much different the conversation would go I don't think it'd be our jurisdiction to tell them where they can go I think the purpose of interim uses are for uses that a community does not identify to be a long-term use now that there's discretion in how long that is and that's really what's identified in condition of approval number one which is what is that trigger MH if the commission wanted to make that into a onee it certainly could recommend that to the city council it also could be more deliberate to say and give the city the option to terminate it if the city selected that they wanted it back at Central Park and that would be my recommendation that the commission think about amending condition of approval number one to the interim condition of use permit shall terminate Upon A change in regulation ations which would prohibit the use upon the city election to have the market at Central Park or upon violation of the conditions which the permit was issued that gives the city the opportunity if if for instance there's a different perspective in Parks and Recreation that Central Park is not the appropriate location for whatever reason that that does not in uh impact this site that excuse me that to me seems appropriate but but I would say that if we were to put a duration on it I I would not want to go out two or three years because I think once people get in the community get used to the location of the farmers market it'll only be confus if we're there two or three or four years and then we move it seems that there's there was a reason why it's not at City Center last year and there's a reason why it's not going to be there this year there's a good reason for that and so we ought to move it back there as soon as we can would be my position have a question come on up um so we in this lot have a a lot more room than we had at Central Park and I'm just curious like if the vendors all decide after this Summer that they want to stay at Red Rock and you all decide that you would rather us be at Central Park what does that conversation look look like does it mean that we have to reapply for this permit at this location or does it I I guess I'm just curious what the next steps at that point would be yeah it would require amendment to this application okay th those are kind of the same thoughts I had as well just not predicting the future and putting that one year in the burden that it could just cause a year out for this to expire I I appreciate and support the the revision um that you had suggested about the city to have the option to terminate and for all of our sake putting the burden on you guys to to handle that with um knowing where our kind of I don't know opinions are on the matter well just to offer a slightly different perspective of we were talking about giving them some time to get some data here but we also need data about the new Civic Center because we don't know exactly how traffic flows are going to be and how busy Central Park is going to be right when they open and so I I don't want to lock them in to sending them back to Central Park when Central Park isn't even open yet and we don't have data about how it's working and what pitfalls we need to look out for yet all right any other thoughts from Commissioners I have one could we possibly instead of requiring them to either move or re redo the the application could we um suggest or mandate a dialogue at least on GA an information gathering meeting at the very least can we do that without requiring them is that just too messy I think under the interim use permit process the city can always have and and we do have dialogue as Dan alluded to it is an annual renewal so as part of that annual renewal um Dan leads this for uh planning staff he does a site inspection has conversations with the applicants and so that happens under all of our all of our interm uses I think the key aspects to keep in mind from a commission standpoint is this is a regulatory approach and so there is a permit that's issued and really focusing on if there is a want that that the site would terminate then there needs to be a mechanism to do so otherwise the only mechanism for it to terminate would be a violation of conditions of approval which I don't believe is likely to occur there it's a well-run market M Eric can I ask you to read the condition that you wrote specific to this topic the interim conditional use permit shall terminate Upon A change in zoning regulations which would Pro prohibit the use upon city election to have the market at Central Park or upon violation of the conditions under which the permit was issued so so it will say you uh it identifies Central Park as the location that's right so that that locks it in to that location versus if the city elects if the city elects and and I do agree with uh with others about um needing more information after the uh Central Park site opens maybe the configuration of the parking lot has challenges for all we know and I think if that were to occur and the city did not elect I would anticipate that planning staff would bring that back to the Planning Commission probably has a memo update to bring that information back to the Commission in uh early 2026 do I understand correctly that the condition as written is I think what commissioner Kennedy is getting at of we just want to have a dialogue of at the one-ear Mark is this working do you want to move is that what what you imagine that would work out too the condition that that I read would go a step further that would the city would be able to terminate the interim use if they if the city selected that Central Park is a location that that is best for the community okay processing but I understand thank you all right um before we look for recommendation for the project I'll also ask if we had any other yellow sheets or questions submitted online not at this time chair all right then with that um staff would be looking for a recommendation for this project and if you are going to move forward and put forth a recommendation please do so with any proposed changes I move to approve project 20-20 25- z570 with the amendments to condition five about the number of signage and uh specifying off-site versus onsite and then the revised condition for adding uh monitoring street parking and encouraging people to not park on the street Street as well as the condition for if the city elects to have it removed from Red Rock and relocated to Central Park reviewed all right do we have a second just ask a clarifying question you said encouraging people not to park on Commonwealth no street parking sides difference in thank you do we have a second on that I'll second that all right then all those in favor of um recommending this project please say I I I I I'll oppose please say nay all right then with that um we do have a proposed recommendation for the project which is Project number 20-20 25-57 and this will take part of the public hearing portion of the city council meeting on March 12th so thank you very much for the time and good luck with the rest of the project thank you Commissioners thank you staff yeah thank you very much thank you all right next item on our agenda this evening is the Slick City conditional use permit project number 0120255 72 and the staff member with this one is also Dan right thank you chair Mike and an and Kelly have submitted an application for a new commercial recreation used to be called slick City slick city is an indoor slide in air trampoline park proposed to be located within the existing building at 587 sthers Ridge Parkway no exterior building modifications are proposed with this application the property is zoned as BCD business campus district and is guided as places to work on the land use plan at the April 27th 2022 meeting city council approved the application for the 180,000 sqt sthers Ridge industrial building parking lighting Landscaping storm water management and architecture were reviewed and improved with the plan unit development conditional use permit preliminary plat and sight and uh building plan review slick city is proposing to occupy 50,000 Square ft of the building as a commercial recreation use which is 28% of the building the applicant is proposing to install an indoor recreational experience with an existing Suite in the building that the city has identified the commercial recreation space is a supportive use to the places to work land uses however it is the intent of the comprehensive plan to deliver places to work uses within the land use category and therefore the southers ridge industrial shall be capped at 28% Total tenent Space as uses considered commercial recreation the proposed commercial recreation use cap is higher than the caps established recently for the Hudson Road Office Park and the Royal Gateway projects which had caps of 15% is appropriate to establish a cap for these types of uses to ensure the intent of the places to work land uses are met and future requests are reviewed through the conditional use permit process commercial recreation uses are commonly seen in light industrial buildings throughout the metro area as the buildings provide higher ceilings more affordable rents and complimentary parking availability with adjacent businesses the applicant is proposing to utilize the existing access points off of sers Ridge Parkway and Diamond drive on the backside for site vehicle access Karen Drive and East Road will also be utilized for vehicles using the building's rear entrance off of diamond Drive The southers Ridge industrial plan unit development approved a parking ratio of one stall per 647 Square ft or requirement of 77 parking spaces for the proposed use the graphic on the screen identifies the location of 7 parking stalls uh with the parking in front of the building proposed for customer parking and rear parking for employees is anticipated the use will have approximately 25 employees during their busiest shift a neighborhood meeting was held on February 18th 2025 uh there were no residents and attendance with that staff recommends approval of the conditional use permit project number 01-22-18 to the conditions found within your staff report staff and the applicant are on hand for any questions all right thank you very much would the applicant like to add anything additional at this time I just want to um introduce myself Mike Kelly um I want to say thank you for the commission for um for hearing our conditional use permit um application we're excited to bring uh this family entertainment concept which is new um across the US there's now 10 corporate owned slick cities across the country uh my wife Annie and I are the first franchisees and we are bringing Woodburry will have the second um location slick city in Minnesota we are God willing opening next week up in Maple Grove with our first one so very excited and judging by we've had multiple Facebook uh comments of why could don't we have something like this in Woodberry I said just just wait so thank you all right thank you very much um have there been any yellow sheets received or questions submitted via teams not at this time chair all right the Q&A will stay open for the duration of the project discussion so if there are any questions please enter them and staff will read them for the commission and with that we will open it back up to members of the Planning Commission for questions and we're going to mix it up and we're going to start with commission members sha all right thank you thank you very much uh chair um so my question um is actually more for the staff is you know looking at the parking spaces I'm kind of familiar with this site because I drive by there frequently um and uh you know it's you are one of the tenants uh in in the site right there are other tenants that can be possibly there or they're already there uh has the parking assessment done in terms of like for peak times that you would have like I'm assuming weekends you know parties whatever else that happens birthday parties uh as compared to other things which are in that area is there enough parking um and what would that do to the traffic flow um you know it's kind of similar to the church which is you know a little bit south of there right where on on on the church time uh the traffic on Settlers Ridge gets pretty difficult uh so that's that's my question there is currently one other user in this building located in this Suite here is shown on your screen uh it is an officewarehouse use so they'll primary primarily be there from 8:00 to 5: uh this use with Sil city has more of an afternoon evening use um so we're anticipating that uh a larger percent of the parking field will be available during their peak times okay so primarily not just 8 to5 but also this will be weekends and things which the other tenant wouldn't be using correct correct okay thank you all right thank you commissioner Harrington thank you chair Olson um I've got a question about the um the cap I remember last year we reviewed a similar recreational project and I think you you you mentioned those uh Dan with the 15% so this is 28 so maybe go into a little more detail about why were those 15 why is this 28 sure we implemented the cap based on the square footage of the building and how much it occupies uh the reason that we cap the use is to review uh further if they were to propose an expansion of the of the use just so we can run parking numbers and make sure the use still fits um so if they were to come in for an expansion uh they would re an amended conditional use permit so um so if someone were to come in and want to take a smaller portion of this they wouldn't be able to because you've capped it at 28% if they wanted to to bring a different kind of recreational use in this building that would not be allowable is that true that's correct under these guidelines okay if if the applicant I don't mean to ask this and sound cynical when I when I asked this if the applicant would have come in and the math would have said 30% of the building would this cap been set at 30 that's correct okay I I knew the answer but I thought I thought I'd ask it anyway now it is that's my only question thank you all right thank you commissioner Jarrett thank you chair uh so I remember this building I've been around long enough I can remember when this was proposed and I looked back at some of the notes and we had some concern with uh this was some of the other Hudson Road uh Warehouse type buildings facilities and I know the pickle ball park one that we just looked at there was a defined semi loading unloading area and this building it was it was like all or none it was all the semi- trffic is in and out and backing up in the back and then uh employee or you know pedestrian parking in the front along Settler's Ridge um so this building just seems a little bit it ju it it does not flow very well for a kind of a retail use I mean I I would think that this would have a better fit in you know a shopping mall uh type area or some place that the parking is more conducive to having children families uh and so forth it just it just to the to me this seems a little bit weird I get I get the separation with the employee parking in the back and I think that's a very good idea um but I it just and I remember this building in particular because there was not a separation of uh of uh you know we talked about the semis coming around can they come all the way around to the uh Ken Drive side of it and the flow so I I just I have some concerns about parking families children you know excited kids and birthday parties and all that kind of stuff um otherwise I think having some of this mixed use stuff is is good I think that having a limit on on it is also wise because this was designed as a truck Park as a warehouse where you have semi-rs coming and going and uh you know we have plenty of other retail spots um that are kind of conducive to this so I I guess I would encourage you know making sure your employees are parking in the back and you have plenty of parking in the front for the guests that would be my my main concern so that's all I have thank you right thank you commissioner Swanson thank you um couple questions for staff the parking that we see here it's not striped or signed in any way that says slick City this is where you park and okay so I feel like most of these parking spaces are going to be open to get to your concern and as a parent I'm going to go park next to the sidewalk I'm not going to park on the other side so I I'm not as concerned about the parking situation um for the cap question is there a maximum percentage that you're allowed to do under a cup if they came in and said 75% 50% uh so typically these type of uses uh they're more slated for warehouse use so if if the cap was too high the parking numbers wouldn't work for the site okay then my one final gripe condition five net or gross square footage we should have picked that up from last time it thank you we will add the square footage I'll work on that thank you all right thank you very much commissioner Kennedy hi we went to visit the building this last weekend and so it's a great building um a couple of questions about the building and about the organization um the the building as you stand and look at it from the front of the parking lot where slick city has its has its um signage on the door at the right the there's a side there's on the window of the door at the right hand side is is that the is that the main entrance there are several or four I think entrances into that front of the building and if I'm being totally honest right now we haven't fully figured out what the main entrance would be yet okay we wondered we we had a conversation my my car made an eye so um just wondered um because at that side of the building the front of the building looks like it's it's in construction if you look in the windows inside which is fine that's no problem but behind that is a construction uh offices is that right occupying that behind there well I think what's going on I I have not been to the building in a few weeks uh but it's Universal Services yes as the the South endc cap and they're expanding further to the north so I think that's their construction we're still in lease negotiation with the developer right now okay I wonder what the reason we asked is because we were looking at the parking and and um uh how many spots there were here how any handicapped and and what the Ingress and egress would be um for for an operation like this um in an emergency situation how do they get out of the building really fast um that's that's was my thought at least in that aspect yeah and if I could add 70% of the business here will be between Friday at 5:00 P pm to Sunday at 5: pm and you better believe it's the first thing I did when we were you know looking at locations to go you know stay out over the weekend and see what the parking situation would be like it's it's crucial for this and um to the commissioner Jared's comments of of this use space one um aspect of being in a location like this that's so conducive to the business is a high ceilings if you're going to have a slide park you need to have this a 28 foot ceilings you just don't get many opportunities like that in a traditional uh retail Center so parking's crucial and finding that balance is key we think we we found it here this is actually relative to most um Family Entertainment sites in the country probably one of the the better parking situations we've seen it's pretty it's it's it's expansive and around along the right side of the building too so it's not just in the front where the where it's designated for for parking specifically um uh the there is a a sizable Church Eaglebrook is right around the corner and so some of the concern some of the not a concern but a um noteworthy is traffic on the street itself at a time when perhaps the church is having events and you are in you know full Full Speed Ahead um business what did do we need a traffic um um report or examination on that uh we have done a number of traffic studies within the Northeast area and this building has been studies studied as part of that you are correct Eagle Brook Church um and and for some level Brookview Elementary has peak time challenges those peak times are a def defined duration they're repeated and my belief is likely there will be some communication to um customers that during that very you know 1H hour window if there was a birthday party or others I would assume that there'll be some communication proactively and that's really what we've seen over the over the years with Eaglebrook um individuals that are familiar with the route will try to avoid for those Sunday Peak uh morning peak times but outside of that the the use is pretty quiet okay all right um a couple questions just a couple more questions we we looked at that and wondered if two stories was enough but I know it's a tall building so hearing you say 28 ft that that would accommodate what you've got um the the the question I have also is how many cars how many humans do you need for your break even in the long term and so it it's not I'm not asking about dollars necessarily but about um humans on campus um it's a great question and as a finance guy I appreciate that um it it probably the what we have modeled out in in our Maple Grove location and we were corporate training my wife and I last week and we saw um a range we were there in waos Wisconsin for 5 days and and was a 55,000 foot facility um that range from 500 um participants or guests today to 1,200 on on the peak Saturday over the course of the day and these are these are 90 to 120 minute sessions birthday parties are are two hours uh you'll typically see you know during Saturday um a birthday we'll have you 10 to 20 guests and it's typically just you know Mom and Dad and maybe a couple other friends that are there and and a lot of drop offs for that so that that helps with the parking as well I was actually surprised how packed the park was and of course I'm circling around looking at the parking lot and it wasn't an issue with that facility in wossa that's very comparable too to what you've got here correct okay all right interesting um what about seasonal things here in Minnesota I lived for 30 years in Arizona and they are all over Arizona right now um uh I was in that area by uh the Salt Lake or Salt River Casino no I didn't gamble but um we were there and I I wish I known I I'd have looked across the highway at that facility which is somewhat comparable I think they've got about 40,000 square fet um but basically um the seasonal they don't have seasonal changes there but here we do I would imagine is it a part of your plan in the winter to consider that increase um yes absolutely and that that'll be you're seeing it now think I believe that was a Chandler Arizona facility which you saw and actually the um those numbers pale in comparison to the northern Parks right now it's nice in Arizona people go outside in the summer it flips see that in KY Texas too um it's you know kind of counter cycal to what we're seeing here so um winter will be the peak um by far we we'd expect that um spring break we're getting ready to open a park right in the middle of of spring break which will probably be the busiest month I I would imagine March um we are seeing though you would imagine there's going to be a lot of um you know summer programs we we're we have a number of requests already for 120 kids to come with a field trip um things of that nature in the summer which we'd hope hope for so um yeah definitely the winter will be your your Peak though yeah and that'll then it's no removal Etc and the parking lot is crucial for you um and as someone who is mobility challenged I it's crucial for everything to get that that parking available in that area that noted yeah okay um uh I think for right now that's that's all I have chair thank you thank you commissioner colum thank you chair um I I want to go back to the site plan for a second this one yeah thank you um so I think I heard earlier the parcel to the South or to the right on this screen is office space today is that correct it's a mix of office warehouse and I think I heard the applicant say that they're expanding that space so is this design is the is the black solid line here the actual proposed lease line and then all of that to the right will be occupied by the existing tenant when they're done with their expansion or will there be some vacancy there the uh tenant here actually came in for a permit already so it's it's configured into uh their space so this is the approximate space of with the expansion so the remaining space to the North or to the left I don't know roughly 40% or so of the space is still vacant and waiting to be developed that's correct so that takes me back to commissioner Harrington's question one of my favorite topics is if another candidate were to come in I let me ask you this way um commercial recreational use is that an allowable use in the BCD District by itself or would that require an approval to get a conditional use permit for that use anywhere in the BCD District if it's under 5,000 it's a permitted use if anything over that would require a conditional use permit so I guess the the purpose of the cap on this particular building would be to not allow the owner developer of the building to put that particular use in less than 5,000 square ft right because the way the cap is structured now if it's 28% they couldn't put a th000 Square fet in there they'd have to come in here but if there was no cap they would still have to come in for review and approval if it was above 5,000 square feet the only I'm not saying loophole but the only uh scenario where they wouldn't have to if it was less than 5,000 square fet with without the cap is that am I am I saying that right that's correct yeah I think the key aspect of the cap is really to indicate to the building owner that from a municipal standpoint that we concerned about how much commercial Rec Recreation is in the places to work we identify we do staff identifies it as a complimentary use to a level um but if this continues and say half of what's shown on the leftand side was then also a proposed as a commercial recreation with heavy weekend Peak the parking counts would really have to be studied closely likely what we anticipate these types of uses the the remaining portions will likely mimic what's seen on the south side which is about a 45,000 ft space 9,000 of its office 36,000 of it is Warehouse parking for it um is really on the Right Far Right parking area and it wraps around just a little bit the corner but it it is not using even the allocated parking that it has in front so we we view it as ample parking for this use and and as the applicant identified these really are complimentary as it relates to the time of day one of the things that we have thought about from a staff standpoint about commercial recreation is if you have 276 parking spaces 365 days a year why not activate them and this is one of the attractive Parts when we look at it through that lens is why have these C's and you if this was not a commercial recreation use it likely again would be a warehouse type use and we'd probably have an over park facility and that's not positive either yeah I I I agree with that sentiment and I I think that's you know as I've expressed when we had other uh projects come up last year um the cap seems to be just another hurdle on top of that on top of the already the the zoning pieces that we have in place to um to manage the development of these of these Parcels there's very few uses that are going to come come in here and probably take less than 5,000 square ft great and at least in my day job to commissioner Jared's question earlier I'm seeing lots of uh Fitness and recreational uses going into these spaces because the rent is a lot cheaper and it's just easier for them to build out and configure them retail is so tight right now it's a ceiling height it's just a whole bunch of you know I think we're going to continue to see we're going to continous to see applicants come in uh into this since we have so much built compared to other communities already um Desiring the space I I think it is definitely worth reviewing though because not all you know recreational use is the same if this was a Sky Zone um you know doing birthday parties which is the same model that you have you don't need that much parking because I'd say 80% of the kids get dropped off in front of the building they go in or after they're checked in you know the parents leave for for an hour and go shop or do whatever for while the kids are having their birthday party so they're going to have a lot fewer parking spaces needed than uh say that pickle ball park uh that we looked at which they're having tournaments you know they can have quite a few people there for an extended period of time and every player has got to park a car and and use it and then you know the discussion was well is it going to overflow into the truck bay parking um and that kind of stuff so I think it's very appropriate that we look at each type of recreational use because there's definitely going to be a big swing um you know there's going to be a big swing between parents using a pickle ball park or adults using a pickle ball park and kids having birthday parties in a slick city or a Sky Zone or uh you know even an Altitude Trampoline Park yeah commissioner I agree I I just think I get concerned when we're limiting building owners we already have the zoning requirements that if it's more than 5,000 squ ft for that use they have to come through the process we're just adding another layer of regulation on top of that that to me seems unnecessary I've been on the record on that so I continue to be on the record for that um if we can just look at the other uh the the zoomed out view for a second I just want to um appreciate the applicant for uh proposing this business um last year we approved a multifam use just north of here on Karen Drive and there's a just south of here we approved a daycare use um that I think is just coming out of the ground right now so this Corridor is really turning into something that is a neat uh planning from a city perspective so appreciate staff and thinking about that and and uh how the future residents and and other uses for this area besides just um just one type of use um I think it's going to be a nice uh Corridor of family act family opportunities for the city here so best of luck to you thank you that's all I have chair all right thank you very much then we'll go to commissioner Cho um so all previous questions I had were answered and I just think that it's a great place for kids to enjoy especially my younger brother he he's definitely going to go to this place look at the pictures looks a lot of fun in my standpoint as well so I just think it's a great addition to the city and to the neighborhood itself well appreciate that thank you thank you that'll be all you thank you and commissioner enging I agree I think it's going to be like a great activity place for younger children to go I know that my younger cousins are going to like love this place they do know just to like get all their energy out during the summer and whether they have birthday parties and whatnot and my only question that I would have is that comparing it to the Maple Grove site how many parking spaces does that have whether it's like a similar number to this site or same or lesser or more yeah great question I actually did that exact math like a week ago and it's almost um it's very comparable there's in terms of the dedicated um stalls it's almost spot on um Woodberry this Woodberry location has a number of additional um striped um spots stalls that uh would be uh for use as well so uh and we're seeing the same thing in in Maple Grove we've got two warehouses to the we're also in the middle of the building and we have a caribou Warehouse to the north of us or to the west of us empty in the weekends and at night and another industrial Warehouse um just to the right of us and it's the it's the same deal I have no further questions thank you all right thank you very much um I did not have any additional questions um probably the most colorful application we've seen um it was pleasant to review so thank you for that um have we received any questions on teams not at this time chair all right anything else from any Commissioners at this time I did have a question um so Eric you were you were talking a bit about parking and I think you said that maybe this site would be overp parked and I I'm trying to recall the conversation in the context of that so should this have not had this type of use that requires more parking it would have really been overpark should office warehouse occupy the entire building based on the ratios that you were talking about is that a fair way to say that I think what the way we looked at these spec buildings was really to try to not make parking a potential limiter to the types of businesses that could come in and it's really challenging in Spec buildings of this nature on how much office how much Warehouse some Warehouse buildings are 50,000 Square ft and they have eight employees some of them have significantly more employees so it's a really challenging parking ratio conversation so the strategy really was that if we wanted to create a dynamic business park within the Northeast area is allow these parking areas so that you have a number of different business opportunities that can then come together and uh work off of their kind of you know these types of synergistic relationships where you have uh a use that will be here Monday through Friday 8 to 5 use their space and then on the weekends these Peak uses come in there and use the same spaces in a very efficient manner versus trying to park each individual business the argument is is you actually add more parking if you if you park it that tight right no I I do I do understand the flexibility of wanting to be sure that when these buildings come online they're sufficient parking for whatever that ratio is of office to Warehouse because the office is going to require more per square footage than the than the industrial part so I do get that I'm wondering um I'm sorry this maybe isn't the meeting for this but the question would be um has staff has a city looked at because we have a lot of these buildings um in the city and possibly more to come I'm wondering how do how are we doing on parking or does it if you take a snapshot of these buildings after they're built out are we 50% overp parked or are we pretty darn close I think that's definitely a task that's on our radar screen as we get these businesses um filled and and actually you'll be getting a copy of our annual report as part of the workshop and we do a little bit of a snapshot in the Northeast area and we're about halfway occupied within the Northeast area that will give us that ability to start looking at for these types of office uses that are this building is 180,000 square feet the other buildings within the Northeast area one is 425,000 the other one's 450,000 Square ft um what are those ratios um and I think we'll also go outside of Woodbury for that analysis as well um the applicant identified Maple Grobe they've got a number of very like business parks there Egan has some as well we'll look at those as well to try to position ourselves for our next next projects to really not overpark that's not anyone's goal and so we're trying to hit kind of the the target which is provide the enough parking so that as users come in we're not crossed off the list because we don't have enough parking and I'm sure John can point out this from his time that does happen in spaces if there's not adequate parking the use does not occur and that's something that you know we really took seriously because we want to have as opportunity for businesses to locate here as as we can oh that's great I'm just glad that the as you describe it the city is going to be looking into the rules and regulations because I don't know I see so many Open Spaces maybe it's as we all work at home we're all coming back but you see office parks with empty parking lots and you see these kinds of buildings where there's not many cars in the parking lot and you kind of Wonder do we really need to build it and what are the what are the implications of all that extra payment yeah I think there's a definite as part of our environmental stewardship work I think that's going to be also a part of one of the deliverables there is to look really at today's parking ratios I'm not sure if we're there yet as it relates to work from home versus in office long term to say that this is what we're seeing today is the future um but it's certainly different than what used to be a pretty widely accepted ratio of one space per 200 square feet for office use I would say that that's probably gone away what is the new number that's what we'll have to study I think the other thing that we'll want to look at is some of the it Institute of Traffic Engineers manuals that help look at how much traffic is actually being generated by these types of uses from a data standpoint and then back into parking based on the amount of traffic volume that we're seeing so more to come I think it's a a ripe conversation though thank you all right if there are no further questions I believe staff would be looking for a recommendation for this project I move to approve project number 01225 d572 with the included conditions and adding net or gross to condition five all right thank you do we have a second second all right thank you we'll now take a vote on this motion all in favor please say I I I I I'll oppose please say nay all right and with that the Planning Commission recommends approval of this project and it will be heard also part of the public hearing on March 12th city council meeting so congratulations congratulations Commissioners and staff and I want to tell you real quick we uh we transferred we originally had a territory down in San Antonio Texas and my wife and I have been here for about five years in Minnesota and last year as we got to know Woodberry more and with uh with some encouragement from our our realtor we said let's let's switch so we changed the territory up here and we're very very excited to be part of this community so thank you yeah welcome thank you very much for the application and there's going to be a lot of happy families on the Sens all right so with that next on the agenda we typically head to our Council report but in the absence of council member Steve Morris we are going to have to wait for our next Planning Commission meeting for that update shoot so next item on the agenda this evening approval of the minutes from from our January 13th 2025 draft and with that do we have any comments or edits at this time on those minutes all right hearing none we'll entertain a motion for approval I move to approve the minutes of the January 13th 2025 meeting as submitted thank you do we have a second a second there all right all in favor of approving those minutes please say I I I I'll oppose please say nay right that the minutes from the January 13th 2025 Planning Commission meeting have been approved and with that our meeting has been adjourned e e e e e"