[Music] I call to order the May 9th 2024 Planning Commission meeting uh please join me in the flag pledge and will you please take a roll call of members oh first sorry I skipped that all right agenda item number two the swearing in of our new Planning Commission member um Alex Chini so Alex if you want to come right up to front there and now a roll call of members please Tinsley Chini here kza here morovic Zim in Swenson here thank you agenda item number four approval of minutes um approval of the April 25th 2024 Planning Commission meeting minutes fellow Commissioners any changes no the meeting or the minutes will stand and agenda item number five any announcements uh provided tonight's item is not tabled the May 23rd uh Planning Commission meeting will be cancelled all right thank you you all right and agenda item number six um this is a public hearing for Deborah hullman to consider the application of Deborah Holman for an interim use permit to allow um an app a Perry uh which is beekeeping and the rs2 single family residential district located at 1 18005 jard path and then here to to speak about the item briefly is Deborah you'd like to come up to the front please hi my name is Deborah Holman good evening um my intent for the plan for the aary is um to start out with one colony and eventually adding my second which is the maximum limit I believe I can have for the size acreage I have um have no intent to sell the honey would rather gift if there's any surplus to friends and family um the type of V I'm looking at is either a hybrid Italian caral be and they're bred with a focus on hygienic behavior and a gentle temperament um and they also have might resistant characteristics um management plan for them would be to use IPM which is um sorry integrated Pest Management which is also includes the powder sugar dosting screen bottom board green drone Chrome breaking the Queen's brood cycle etc etc um I will be testing for mites and treating if necessary um and then also we'll be doing swarm methods creating an artificial swarm caging the queen and giving them their adequate adequate space um in the event for the behavior of the bees that they become too defensive obviously I would requeen them um so yeah try to answer any questions anyone has thank you yep thank you chair members of the commission I'm just going to do a quick overview um of the item um Frank um prepared this report I'm hopefully you all had a chance to review it um he is out of town tonight um so Deborah H has um submitted the application for an intern use permit um the property is located 1 18005 jakar path and it is owned rs2 single family residential so you can see arrows on the map um where the property is located this is a layout of the um of her property and so she's asking for an interm use permit to allow an aary um as an accessory use um the interim use permit does allow up to two um for um two aaries I'm not even sure if I'm saying that right aaries aaries um for the keeping of honeybees at the Northwest corver property so you can you can see on the site plan there's an existing shed up in the corner and then the location for the hive just um adjacent to the shed um these are allowed in the residential districts with an interm use permit in accordance with performance standards um so what Frank did in the staff report is he went um and provided detailed information as to the interim use performance criteria I'm not going to highlight all of those um again the applicant has more knowledge on how these function and work than staff this is the very first time um we have received this application this was introduced into the zoning ordinance my understanding several years ago um but the ordinance does lay out um quite a bit of criteria and through the review we have determined that the applicant does meet each of the criteria um required for this interim use to be issued so some of the things that um she's already highlighted um they're limited to a number of two qualities just based on her property size needs to be within 20 ft of the property align and you can see that she's tucking it in um away from um the home as well as right next to the shed it needs to be require um in the rear yard which it is um not located within a wetland that's not an issue um and again um just to give a little aerial perspective you can see there's quite a bit of vegetation um some on her property some on an adjacent property and so as um staff was doing this review We felt that um the the existing Landscaping the existing trees are meeting the requirement for providing that dense vegetative buffer in the event that the neighboring property would remove that there is stipulation that a fence meeting that six- foot in height requirement um be provided and so that has been made as a condition um laid out in Frank's report um so that we believe satisfies that performance criteria um the interim use permit would terminate upon um ownership change to the property or if it lapsed in use for one year or greater again staff's review of the performance standards within section 1147 and finds the interm use permit application meets all the standards um there is a findings of fact in your packet and then on the last page of the staff report Frank has laid out five stipulations again referencing back to the zoning ordinance um as well as um how the interm use permit would terminate again upon Sal or discontinued use for more than a year again I will stand for any questions to the best of my ability based on what the zoning ordance tells us and the applicant will be happy to answer questions as well thank you and this is a public hearing so anyone wishing to speak on this agenda item uh you can please come forward now hello my name is Julie Asgard and my husband Jay is also here tonight will you will you pull the microphone down a little bit so we can hear you better thank you let me know is this okay okay perfect um we live at 1 18031 jaquard path in Lakeville we were the first family to live in our development we've lived here for 25 years we're here to share our concerns about our nextdoor neighbor application for a permit to have bees an article in the sun this week news in 2017 in included the following comments council member Colleen leau expressed concern about allowing beehives because many people are extremely allergic to be stings and allowing people to farm them could put them in a life-threatening situation she questioned how long-term residents would feel with the change to allow beehives on neighboring property when there was no such ordinance in place when they moved in council member Luke ellar said he supports the ordinance which limits the location and number of hives allowed on a property but would propose reviewing it after a year to see if there are problems or complaints if there are issues I'd like to be able to look at that helier said I don't have anybody who is allergic but I could definitely see how people would be concerned about that mayor Doug Anderson said he also supports the ordinance but shared concerns about how the bees could affect people the homan's request quest to keep ease is the first to come forward since adoption of the regulations the concerns expressed in this article mirror the concerns we have as a nextdoor neighbor my daughter is severely allergic to bees and needs to carry a medically prescribed EpiPen several of our friends are also allergic to beestings one of whom also requires an EpiPen they understand that be thingss can occur naturally anywhere in nature but intentionally placing a hive or hives of beaves on an adjacent city property is irresponsible unlike chickens that are in a coupe dogs that are leashed these bees are not contained the homan's request is for up to two hives one Hive has 10,000 bees and she's has said that she's planning to purchase a second Hive next year of an additional 10,000 bees that's 20,000 bees even before they reproduce I understand that typically onethird of the bee population forages but that's still thousands more than would appear naturally in our vicinity having that number of bees exponentially increases the likelihood that our guests and daughter could be stung we have a large garden filled with flowering bushes annuals and prenal s approximately 50 ft by 25 ft and it's on the side right next to their property having a few bees visit there that occur naturally in nature is one thing intentionally placing thousands upon thousands more next door is completely different and has serious ramifications as I've stated several of our friends and our daughter are allergic to beasting most people don't fully understand beasting allergies each time someone is stung they're susceptible to more and more serious reactions the last time my daughter was stung she needed immediate medical intervention reactions can range from mild to severe severe reactions to a beasting include anaphylaxis which is life-threatening and requires emergency medical treatment the symptoms of anaphylaxis can develop rapidly difficulty breathing l Of Consciousness it can cause death within minutes this is serious most people think well if you're stung just use an EpiPen an EpiPen does not take the place of medical care and requires emergency help immediately after using it's a scary situation I can understand having bees on a property with 5 Acres or so where there's plenty of room for them to forage we are in a neighbor neighborhood where our properties are close together and this will directly affect how I can use my property as a reminder these bees are not contained I should not have to consider whether or not we can have friends over who have severe allergies to be stings I should not have to wonder if we stay inside when my daughter and grandchildren are over when normally we play in the sidey yard next to their property I should not have to consider tearing out a large Garden on my property that I have planted and cultivated for the last 25 years for the safety of my daughter and my friends their decision to raise thousands of bees adjacent to our property where we have guests and family members with medically diagnosed allergies from be stings is reckless I request that the permit is denied or at least delayed until the city places additional res restrictions on these permits that address the concerns initially expressed by the council members and mayor before it was instituted thank you thank you anyone else wishing to speak at the public hearing Madam chair yes motion to close the public hearing second I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing hearing all those in favor please signify by saying I I I all opposed all right the public hearing is now closed fellow Commissioners yes um I have a couple of questions for uh director goodroad uh she might be able to answer um uh I understand uh in the planning report that um neighbors uh within 500 feet were notified of this um and I I believe correct me if I'm wrong that the the that is greater than than what's in statute that is correct whenever we have a public hearing notice State Statute requires us to send notices to adjacent properties with 350 ft of the boundary of the subject property um in which the application is concerned the city of Lakeville requires that to be within 500 ft thank you and then um I understand the the concerns about uh reaction I'm someone that carries an F pen um what is I under I know that uh EMS um has epens but uh what about our uh other First Responders to the uh to the fire station um have those or my understanding is the fire department um those members who take calls do I don't believe we got confirmation whether the police officers do okay and fires usually gets there before the EMS does any anyways in the city so thank you those are all my questions for director thank you uh I also had a couple questions is there anywhere that I saw in the staff report that there is recourse if there's unusual aggressive behavior is there anywhere that that's defined the terminology is not defined okay how how is that determination made then whether it's unusual or not um I don't know de you might be able to help answer that one better than I can I'm not an expert on bees um but yeah when the ordinance was written that particular um statement was not defined um again this is my first year beekeeping so I'm learning as I go as well done lots of studying um so when they become aggressive or defensive they are defending their hive um mostly it would be for when The Beekeeper goes into the hive whether you have to wear a suit or not um depends on the temperament which these are bread which I said before for for their gentle temperament um sorry I don't know how else to answer that but yeah you would end up Rec queening bringing in a new Queen which has new characteristics it would tame the hive back down again then I just have a couple more questions so if if the bees so is there any recourse for Neighbors if the bees become a nuisance or make it difficult or impossible for Neighbors to enjoy their yards whether not they're Ste uh stinging or just everywhere as um as with any interm use permit or conditional use permit there is always the opportunity if we do receive complaints concerns that we can we can get involved and we can visit with the property owner that is holding the permit find out exactly what is going on visit with the person who is complaining or having a concern over it find out what's going on from their end and if we do see that they are in viol ation of what the ordinance requires and what the interm use permit stipulations say then we can bring it to the Planning Commission Council for revocation so there is steps in which we can do that for any interim use permit or any conditional use permit and then just my last question would be is there any sort of prohibition on neighbors using like be spray or pest control or that sort of thing I do not believe so okay Madam chair I had a couple of questions yes um Tina um miss good maybe should stay there but I thought we should ask officer Hansen if he can answer the question about do police carry epipens law enforcement does not we are train to use them but we do not carry them thank you um this is our first apiary am I pronouncing that correctly apiary um so 10 th beads bees sounds like massive uncontrollable I could never imagine wanting to have that anywhere for me to be anywhere near it how many bees and whether this is from M good rot or from M Homan how many bees are normally around I I to Garden a lot and have been really working hard to have mine be as beautiful as possible my favorite thing is flowers I'm not doing vegetabl so it's everything the bees would like um how many bees are there normally and how many bees would be coming out of the hive that are foraging and that kind I I understand someone said a third of the bees are out foraging what what does that mean how far do they go do they just come to my yard if I live next door I don't understand any of those pieces um I do know be when bees are desperate they can go up to five miles to get their food um typically they stay around within miles two mile radius of their hive for foraging can I ask another question and um if I'm normally out in my yard doing gardening in my lilacs and my flowers and everything else I don't I mean I see some bees not a lot if someone had a colony next to me uh living next door is that where the bees would come because my garden would provide everything that they're interested in uh I can't say they wouldn't come to you and would it I mean you wouldn't have flowers if it wasn't for bees understood yes but I seem to be doing fine growing them with the number of bees that are around so to have 10,000 and you're saying a third of those would be out looking for correct food um do keep in mind bees only live 35 to 45 days and then the process starts over again and so the 10,000 gets reduced every 35 to 40 days and then they reproduce yeah it's it's kind of an ongoing cycle so there's always eggs being laid bees dying yes okay right and just to um add to the stinging thing um or aggressiveness is um EES do not sting unless they are rolled in your can't something rolls them or they're pinched and they let off their pheromone then that alarms the whole colony and if it alarms the whole Colony do they all come running the ones that need to okay unless you smoke that area right away and they cannot communicate thank you so um my brother is a beekeeper he has a hive um although he doesn't live in Lakeville I have been to his house um multiple times and I've actually they also have a very large garden but I guess just for some perspective um I have not seen bees all over his property they generally um to my experience in his Hive they are not like out of their hive and in like Mass amounts that one might think um they're just there and they don't really do anything from my experience um I've been there with my child with my animal um and we've never had any issues although I don't I don't know what type of bees they are or anything like that but just to give like a little bit more perspective I guess of that and experience that I have had um I haven't seen them in mass quantities be like outside or be a nuisance around a garden or in a close proximity I don't know if that's helpful um maybe two questions one maybe for the applicant or anyone knowledgeable about be I think uh responding or trying to get at the think the Crux of the issue of do we know for a size of this Colony or Hive how dispersed the bees are you mentioned that they typically will go and Forge for up to a mile and even further if need be do bees tend to forge or go to select or congregated areas right if they find no flower gardens or anything like that where they would tend to repeat or group uh higher in higher rates than normal or do they go in large areas uh seeking forging um maybe one followup would you expect a colony or Hive of this size to be any different than one that would occur naturally okay um and then one maybe for staff I think think certainly this uh exact situation was maybe one you know for the first uh Colony requests that we have here probably testing the limits um probably didn't anticipate that when the ordinance was written seven years ago did I hear that right um when it was written and it was discussed did we as a city look at any peer cities and see if there were any increases in incident rates of the attacks um complaints things like that for other cities in the area that have adopted these ordinance and had uh colonies put put in I think um plenty manager jensa could probably give a little bit more historical perspective but I'm not aware of any research that we've done after the fact once the ordinance has been put into place with other cities yeah at the time that the language was proposed it was actually a school group that came in and did and presented it to us um and that's how the issue came up but that was adopted by Council we did not do um Beyond a perhaps a cursory review of of perhaps some of the neighboring cities to see whether they had um regulations for for bees on hand but there was not a there was not a widespread study about the issue U before it was put into place um I saw in the staff report that when the ordinance was put in place uh you looked at other cities were they similar lot sizes CU all the beekeepers that I've talked to have much larger Lots than we would see in a neighborhood here um I'm just wondering if that was looked at when the they adopted this again the the information was brought forward and proposed by a group um typically when we're looking at um communities for to see how they address issues we look at some of our area communities that are very similar to Us Burnsville Apple Valley Ros Mount Egan Etc so yes those those communities do have similar lot sizes um to Lakeville which is why we use them for those type of research and comparisons and Madam chair um I was here when that discussion took place I might be able to add some to that I know that one of the things that we discussed was that um you know even in like Minneapolis that that they're allowed and those are significantly smaller lots and I I know that we did talk commissioner swon might be able to correct me if I'm wrong but we did talk about tailoring the ordinance um to restrictions based on lot size that you know it's a different picture if you are in a neighborhood like the applicant or if you are on one of the you know 10 acre lots in the city mam chair I think commissioner clu is on the right path here that um we we did have those conversations and and I was around at the same time when when this came through um and to my recollection we did when we this ordinance was crafted and and when it was put together it was very much based on what neighboring communities had already done um this was we were not Pioneers in this area by any stretch of the imagination um that many of our peer communities like mention Apple Valley Burnsville Ean Plymouth Maple Grove um as examples um typically already had an ordinance like this in place um similar types of restrictions so we weren't working from scratch when the ordinance was put together um correct me if I'm wrong but there are differences in how many bees we allow depending on lot size so we did do some crafting based on lot size and what was anticipated um that type of thing um again we we're not Pioneers here in what we did and what we created with the ordinance um and what we put together here um if I may continue um similar to other Commissioners I have family members who are beekeepers um not necessarily primary parts of their business I have one part of my family that um it's actually the kids have bees and they um they sell honey at local County events and and that type of thing and I will grant they're on a much larger acreage situation and in what they're doing than what we are looking at here but similarly as was mentioned Minneapolis is the complete opposite example that um allows this type of thing on much smaller lots and that type of thing say I've been to multiple family members places with bees and I don't feel like you're overrun with bees or anything around you it feels natural like normal habitat that type of thing I have family members who are very allergic to bees thingss work in the Flo floriculture and horiculture Industry um and are around bees and that type of thing and it's it's it's part of what they have to deal with in their life um so I'm I'm cognizant of those issues as well um so mulling over a lot of things in my head here is is as we're looking at this and thinking about it um last thing I just want to ask Miss goodroad here um can you talk a little bit we've used that pyramid of discretion on what the Planning Commission can and can't do or should be doing um can you talk about where we are in that kind of pyramid and what our discretion is here um with an interm use permit yep so if you um recall that pyramid we're um close to the top um we're just from the second one down which is kind of automatic approvals like a site plan um as long as we're meeting the ordinance requirements so very similar to any kind of conditional use and interterm use when we have stipulations and that's why whenever we have an interm use or conditional use we list those stipulations right in the ordinance we go through the application materials and make sure um whether it's the initial application or revisions of plans that were able to identify that they meet the stipulations and if they do meet the stipulations the the permit should be approved yes if I'm right this was 2017 when the ordinance was passed and now it's seven years later and we're having our first one it kind of feels like maybe we need to revisit and see what's going on in other cities with their experiences and figure out um if there's been other problems since we don't really know any of that before we move forward with it and I I did note when um our at a at the public hearing um the letter that was read that it was a review after one year in the ordinance and since we've not enacted anything of the ordinance would that apply to after one year reviewing it um once the is uh allowed I'm under I'm not understanding that part of it um I'm not entirely sure either since I wasn't here in 2017 but it appears from what um um she read that there might have been some discussion at Council level that it should be examined I think with the assumption that after that ordinance will be put in place somebody would come in right away and make an application and that didn't happen I think in this case um as an interim use a stipulation could be added for staff to visit the property visit with the applicant make sure everything is going well that we're not having any issues if you wanted to add that as a condition I think that would be appropriate but um I'm not entirely sure what that one council member former council member reference to one year was I wasn't here then yes um I would be supportive of that stipulation I I was here when when this ordinance went in and you know we did think that more people me people jumped on the chickens um and not as many people were as excited about bees I guess but um you know this is our first uh application you know if there are issues that arise I'd be open to um you know look looking at it in our I mean in our work session today we're talking about zoning ordinance amendments we do that regularly um to deal with issues that arise yeah I would be open to looking at that if there are issues but to me this comes down to and um commissioner Swenson U mentioned it and director goodroad explained it there's kind of a a pyramid um you know at the bottom is things where we have a lot of discretion over it's things like um zoning it's writing of ordinances um and you know the closer you get to the top the less discretion you have and uh you know the function of the Planning Commission is really to look at um for something like an interm use permit uh okay this is what the zoning ordinance says these are the criteria in the that zoning ordinance um for someone to qualify for an interim use permit and we're looking at this application and you know with the help of Staff looking to see under what is written in the zoning ordinance does this application coming before us meet those criteria and as long as that applicant does we don't have a lot of discretion whether or not uh to deny that permit and um like I said I'd be open to uh a stip an additional stipulation that you know staff uh go on and check to make sure that everything's okay and I would hope that the applicant um uh you know we can't require this but you know would attempt to work with their neighbors if any issues do arise and and kind of be that good neighbor so everyone can enjoy uh their own property um uh in the way that they wish to but um I I plan on supporting this I I've read the staff report I believe that um uh Miss hullman is meeting the ordinance with uh her application um but I would support uh that additional stipulation I have a further question I forgot to ask in my first part thank you chair there was some comments in the report from Mr Dempsey about the directional um walls and things that needed to be up and I see how it's was placed in the photograph in front of um the shed and uh I don't know is there another wall on the other side to make it grow taller it and so the bees could just go straight across into the neighbor's yard except for going towards the back they'd have to go up and then over the shed or else they could just choose to go straight out and over to the neighbors is that and I don't know how bees fly or anything about it so what the ordinance calls for is a fence or a wall or some vegetation that's um capable of interrupting the direct flight of the bees and to redirect and so in the review of this with the amount of vegetation both on the subject property and adjacent property we felt that was being that category of requirements was being met and so the stipulation to ad fencing was added and as a condition of the ultimate interterm use permit is if that vegetation on neighboring property were removed so that that criteria then would no longer be met yes qu question for uh Miss Holman uh we had had several comments about you know you'd Reen them if they got aggressive but who determines when they're aggressive is it you is it and how do you make that determination um um that is determined on how they react when I open the Hive on whether they just attack me or let me do my job is your first indication I would be supportive of the onee followup on this and then uh a couple of other comments there's a lot of things in life that just because you can do it doesn't necessarily mean you should do it and I would encourage the the neighbors to be vocal to if you have issues bring them up bring them to council um and and just let's work through this as opposed to having a problem come up any additional comments Madam chair maybe it would be good if we can get a sense of the Planning Commission if they would be supportive of that additional stipulation yes yes maybe question there two things one was maybe more in the near term after buildout and one was maybe stated a year after I don't know if we're thinking both or which one is more important for dis um defining success yeah I I would be in support of commissioner kusza or what U Miss goodroad said regarding having staff maybe come out and visit um maybe after they get there and settled to kind of determine what that looks like uh earlier as opposed to like maybe a full year um Madam chair uh maybe Miss Jensen or Miss goodroad might have some wordsmithing suggested language that will help guide us what I would suggest and um I'll look to miss Holman to get some thoughts too um again I don't know a lot about beekeeping but once um you obtain the bees and they're established in the hive they start doing their thing I'm assuming so maybe it's um her contacting staff once that is all established and we can go out walk the property visit the property to see what kind of activity things are going on and then I would add do another followup within a year seem reasonable yep and that'll help staff learn a little bit more too since we haven't had this kind of application had lots of chickens like you said but haven't had this kind of application yet okay are we ready ready for a motion Madam chair yes I motion to recommend approval of the Deborah hullman interim use permit subject to the six stipulations listed in the May 3rd 20204 planning report as amended second all right I have a motion in a second will you please take a roll call vote uh Chini i kza i morovich i Zimmer I bank I I Tinsley all right and then I forgot this doesn't go in front of it does it does okay so when will this go in front of May 20th all right um well best of luck Miss pulman um hopefully this goes well again as stated um communicate work together it'll be a learning experience and then those additional stipulations will be added in there so thank you um all right and then after this we have our work session and this meeting is jour [Music]