Okay, well good morning everybody. It's Thursday, October 16, 2025. I'll show this after start this morning. Remember, I do notice that in the way in. It is 730 and we're here to talk about a singular topic and Stephanie Hockinson has the program. But first we'll call the meeting to order and then we'll ask someone to do the roll call. That's our executive director. I'll take that today. Commissioner Risser. Yeah. Commissioner Jackson. Yeah. Commissioner Pierce. Here. Commissioner Agnew. Here. Chair. Here. As I mentioned earlier, we have a singular topic to discuss this morning and that is possible usage of the property, thanks to Fire Station new Fire Station number two, which we did. I think that's over 30. That would be for the grand day to kick off that new facility. So I don't know, Ben and Jio, did you have anything? You wanted to preface in terms of remarks or go away from Director Hockinson. Sure. Just very briefly, you know, this is a topic we've had some interaction with with Council before. You've asked us to gather some more information. We've brought that back. But this is a this is a work plan item for us and we'd like to get some more input from you in this work session. Style meetings. So we've got a presentation that is going to be done by Stephanie and we'll be able to answer any questions. Very good. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. I've actually got presentation. Well, it's brief and my and that's by intention. I wanted you all to have plenty of time to discuss among, you know, with each other and see if there's a common vision or if there's more work that needs to be done. Before we go on to the next step. So today's request we want. It is on the work plan for 2025 to come up with some sort of plan vision direction for the site. It is now mid October. So we thought in with the fire station opening we thought maybe it was time to resume these conversations. The today we're seeking direction and whether or not we go forward with a request for proposal and if so what that request proposal would be seeking. So if we move forward with the RFP the proposal here or the suggestion here to seek a residential developer that we would reflect the budget and values and we'd align with city plans. Now I would like to say, you know, as context the reason for bringing forward this type of idea or framing it in the way we did is at least my position and I think I can speak for most of our department is we work within the parameters of visions and plans that have been approved by the city council and the HRA. So we try to carry forth those visions that have been in these fully vetted plans that had a lot of community process. And so if it's not in the plan we will I wouldn't bring it forward to you as a concept or an idea unless directed otherwise. So that is why it is focused in the way that it is is to align with previous discussions and approved processes. So as you know we don't need to fully rehash this but there has been this site has been reviewed and discussed and has gone through a variety of steps to get to the fire station. If you recall different sites were looked at for fire station to some that were city owned and this one required purchase to put the fire station there. Which then the purchase had a price tag associated with it rather than choosing some city owned property. The discussion of what to do with the out lot was somewhat there from the beginning. So we had the sketch plan that talked about the fire station in 23. And that time putting residential development in the south side was brought up at that sketch plan. It was at that time we are said no that's focus on the fire station that's due part a before we move on to part B. So it was paused. Then there was the public hearing for the fire station to and then we followed to we did not talk about the out lot at that point. In May of last year Addison came forward at city council meeting with all city owned parcels and he had talked to department heads about what needs do you have. That for these parcels and he presented it to the city council and this was one of those and it was mentioned at the time different uses that could be put there including what was highlighted and that was put using it for residential use. I went back and I listened to that meeting and just a point of clarification because this came up when we had the August meeting and it was noted that we had approved non binding preliminary research for that out lot. And the six lots were discussed for a total of three minutes and the comment made about the out lot was very brief. It was just that the Diana housing foundation is interested in it. That was it. Right. I just want to say that. Right. And then in the packet of materials that you had was how it was owned and guided land use and some other background information about that. But it was not a deep dive for sure. It was not a discussion. And then in August there was work session with the. Idina housing foundation. They proposed to you that an RFP process does occur for that site and that they as the housing foundation. It was a very important process. And then in the last July. So it is city owned land. And so in July on the city council passed a resolution that authorized the HRA to have these discussions on behalf of the city. And then in the final decision will be with the city council but because of some of the more flexibility with the HRA that HRA's focus is on housing and redevelopment. It seemed like an appropriate body to have the discussions of the site moving forward. So why residential development. It lines city plans. We have a comprehensive and this is again how staff how we come up with our work plans that get approved and how when we present projects or face with projects. The context in which we review them. If someone came forward and said they wanted to do a waterslide park. We would probably say it doesn't align with any of our plans that is a no go from the beginning. Crazy example I realized but just to show that we try to work within set parameters and guardrails. So residential development does align with the comprehensive plan the self health district plan and the climate action plan. So we are working within those big large plans that involved a lot of community involvement. And input. It also addresses issues raised in the quality of life survey from both this past survey and the previous survey. In the survey. It was residents said 61% that there's somewhat too far too little affordable housing for singles and for families. And the need for more affordable housing was listed as one of the top four issues facing the city. And then it aligns with a budget pillars and budget pillars in our work plan. In the work plan as we've discussed throughout the year under livable city. There are two items one was to work on the comprehensive plan which was pushed off till next year for start. And so the only item was to advance progress towards affordable housing goals including increasing housing options and developing a long term growth strategy. So we had those three work sessions this year to talk about focus of for affordable housing and then the city owns the site. So it seemed like there was a way to meld the vision in process that you all work through and the fact that you own this property. So the guiding framework we a lot of our work is within the confines within the boundaries of our budget pillars and values to whatever we do with especially with city owned land that we need to look at equity health sustainability stewardship engagements. And really work within what we have established as our values. In the guided land use the site is guided in the comprehensive plan for office residential. So it is zoned differently. It is zoned. If I can recall planned industrial. But as you are aware we're going through that zone went through the zoning study and we're doing a zoning update with the comprehensive plan preceding zoning changes. So with the zoning update having zoning reflect what was been approved in a comprehensive plan. So the guided land use comes first changing the zoning comes second rather than moving the other way around. So this is guided for office residential. And then this was the concept that was presented in March of 2023 by BKB when they were talking about the fire station. So this idea was raised at a meeting by putting residential use behind here behind the fire station and really utilizing the green space with the wetland. I have a comment on that slide and I've been looking at this a lot because there's a new street that is proposed. And it's interesting to look at how it would require cutting through properties and parcels and buildings even lifetime. And when I looked at that and I just thought about how it really puts the street pretty close to 76 and just the amount of space that remains. And one thing if we do, you know, and it does sound like the whole idea is to subdivide this parcel and we'd end up with 4.8 acres, which is what was in the material for today. And I can understand why they proposed having a new street up that high because according to Minnesota statute, if you're going to create an easement for a cartway, if you're going to put in a new road, you have to have a parcel of land that's at least 5 acres. And we're talking about a parcel of land that's only 4.8. So I don't understand how we're going to get legal access to that land. Well, with these plans and with the following plan and plans to the stage, they're high level conceptual. It's to propose a concept. It is not a sketch plan or a site plan review. And so those issues would clearly need to be the, I'm assuming you're talking about the East West. Those would need to, prior to final site plan approval, be reworked to align with state statute and needs, but this is just high level concept. This is what generally could go in this area. So it's not designed at all to be a final plan. My understanding is that one of the asks is that we approve moving forward with issuing an RFP to develop the land that will be a landlocked parcel 4.8 acres in size. And I need to say very clearly, I can't support that. So I think that's what we're going to be discussing. That's what's being discussed. And it would be similar to what happened at the public site is that it's this mode. Come up with plans that you think could work on the site aligned with all rules, regulations, laws in proposed to us different concepts. This is just high level one person or one team's idea. So Stephanie, before you leave this slide. At one point in time, there was a map that went right through Peter's game furniture or whatever the name of that thing is. And this is not that map. Correct. Because, you know, there's a store that has the furniture and stuff. So that map, if it goes through his land, I would like it just to disappear from anything future because he's like, I keep seeing these maps where my store is cut in half. And so I think that was a very quest from him. So, okay. I can speak to that. So I was involved in the preparation of the delivery of these. So this particular sketch, I believe, was one of four different options that we looked at back in the day. And the discussion was how do we make that entire block about a 48 year block? How do we make it permeable for people, for cars, delivery, etc. So there was a number of scenarios laid out. This is the one that most people tended to prefer, where there was that internal access that East West segment that Julia mentioned. But then that center East West that goes on the bend with the green space. The preference there based on input of the time was to make that more walkable. One of the other concepts people did like was a giant road going through there. And that one provided great access, but people didn't like that at all. I think that was the one. Yeah. Right. And I did meet with each of the property owners and shared it. Shared the various concepts got their input and that's why we ended up. Okay. And then to refresh memory. This was again a high level generalized, not fully vetted. Concept plan that was presented by the United Housing Foundation in August. Of last year. And again, it was to show the idea that the ponding and the wetland could be preserved and there could be different types of housing that could go on the site. Not saying that this is something as is that would move forward, but just to show with massing and generalized concept. So within the RFP, what we're thinking is that to align with the budget pillars and values that we make that forefront in the RFP. That we have these that were make decisions based on these. So that's how the proposals reflect that as well as land use and zoning and the concepts that they have to align with. With equity, you know, how would the proposal serve traditionally underrepresented populations. Government fits in, as I said at one meeting where the private market fails. That's an opportunity for government. So how can we be proactive in reaching out. Describe outreach efforts and how you can learn about those populations and reach out and serve and what would be best. Include a range of price points with emphasis of affordable and attainable. Describe long term affordability would be maintained. I mean, describe this. Give us a plan. Thinking of the community land trust. Are you thinking a deed restriction or you thinking a ground lease. Show us that you know how to do this type of project. With health, incorporate bike, bed connections, including internal sidewalks. Describe what healthy homes concepts to include. And we could expand on these. These are just ideas that fit within our budget. Our. A bunch of people are values. Describe a sustainable construction technology that would be utilized include parking plan that minimizes impervious surface and leverages walkability. Include a strategy for enhancing the wetland and stewardship. Explain how proposal is long term value to the community. Describe the long term viability that it's not something we'll have to revisit in 10 years. Include a post construction value right now. That site is not on the tax roll. What would be the code post construction value. What kind of taxes could it leverage. Provide an estimated purchase price and explain rationale. Nowhere in today's documentation was there any mention of purchase price or having there not be one. That has not been discussed and it would have been complete staff overreach for me to presume as much. So those are the ideas and how the RFP could be framed. Schedule. If a discussion in a unified vision comes forward from today. Come back to you in January with an idea the draft of an RFP and what it could look like based on today's comments. Release it in February. Have a month for developers to be able to look in mall and come back with questions. Then have the HRA review proposals in the spring. And then spend it back to the council since it is city owned land and not HRA owned land. Then go through the regulatory review process. Now if there's an affordability component. I will guarantee there will not be a ground breaking this time next year. It does take more time and more patience to pull together the capital stack for any development that would include affordability. So I leave it now. Okay. Yeah. Thanks for that. Thanks for doing this work for us. Paul. I think we have a version in order that we had. Conversation to best and musings of what could be possibly do it at 4.8 acres and housing was certain of the things that came up. And. Just thinking about the passage of time and has been relatively brief period of time but. I don't think I've ever had so many letters from our residents concerned about property tax increases. Because I have had this year. And yesterday was over at the Met Council for a tab meeting and there are several layers on the. The tab with me. Chaska. All in that same range and we're in from a preliminary tax standpoint where we are where we are because of. The request for additional firefighters. We were at I think 6.5% before you started talking about adding firefighters. It's something that looms large in the present is other ways that we can keep property taxes down and one of the things I think we inevitably have to think about is. This 4.8 acres and I don't know what it's worth. None of us know what it's worth. So the rest of frame and conversation about what to do with it. It seems to me that we have to know what the property's worth on the retail market. We were at Kevin and say we're going to sell this property. And. And then use that money to keep our residents taxes down or. I think we need to. I think we need to frame it up a little bit broader way from a foundational sort of standpoint before we. Head for an RFP on housing only because I think we've got these other responsibilities for trying to wrestle with and wrestle with the best of our ability. But here's an asset that we can think about using the help. In some form or fashion that we hadn't really talked about before. And just I just think it's got to be part of the conversation. So I feel like this is free. Everything was good until you got to the RFP. You know, it just seems to be a bit premature. Maybe we'll end up there. You know, but I think at least we need to figure out how to properly frame off the conversation. At least my thoughts from from thinking about this recently. And you were looking at your room. Yeah, I agree. 100%. I was going to go back to slide. Two. You've already done this. So I'm not going to redo it. But we started out the today's request. We just got to. And that slide. For me was fairly open to say, okay, residents for development. I'm tied to necessarily affordable housing or what have you. I do think we need a bigger. We need to cast a wider net. And. But then we went from that and then we dove into a form of housing and I understand why the presentation went that way. So that totally made sense. But I don't think we should go for it with an RFP that is positioning us to only those kinds of outcomes. That you know, no issue with that. But I think we need to cast a wider net. And personally, I think we should be looking holistically at how we stabilize our general levy. And just roughly, maybe we also, if we could bend that curve to where we could stay within. You know, six percent. Year on year. Inflation plus some factor that could be population or service costs or something like that. As a target. And then. Try to make decisions to kind of get us that way. Which won't happen in one. One budget cycle. Right. That's a trend over time. So I agree with. You just said, I think that is a we should do. We should do test a wider net. Or opportunities. The ways that we could use that asset. To buy down the levy or. You know, pay some. That was my question. What are the terms of the bonds on the fire station. If we were to sell this, can they go to a prepaying some of the bonds or is there a big penalty for that? How did we structure that deal? So that's one of my questions. I'm not going to. I'm not going to have a budget discussion here today because. If we set a percentage and then try to shoot for that, we have to remember we have this policy street reconstruction. And that's about $500,000 additional spending every year, regardless. Unless we want to stop street reconstruction, but that's, you know, we went from zero to about $2 million now and we're only about six years into it about 16 year program. So I'm not going to say inflation plus X. Unless X includes street reconstruction costs. So this, I want to put that on the table. But when we did all of this, we were in a very different world than we are today. And we were talking before the meeting started about the price of coffee. You know, the United States is not so little single soybean to China this year. So the farm economy is going to be a world of hurt in the year to come. I don't know how it affects the data, but I had the feeling that really top economic times are coming. And so I want to look at this through the lens of a potential recession or depression. I've heard forecasters say that. So what does that look like? It's a, it's a tool it. It's a scale, right? Balance on the one hand. We're going to be facing pressures for our city budget. On the other hand, the need for affordable housing is going to skyrocket because we're going to have a lot of unemployment coming forward. And, you know, you know, it has been fairly insulated from economic ups and downs, but I don't know what the next five years are going to look like. I have a feeling it could be really bad. So if top economic times are coming, what is our, how do we balance those two things because, as the chair said, we've been getting emails from people on fixed incomes. So our, I can't absorb this property tax increase. I just have limited funds. But those numbers of people who have limited funds and are really stretch are going to increase. So how do we, how do we put that balance together in the use of this land? And I think that so those are sort of economic things. Land use, I think it's very important that we do follow that rough idea of access by foot and there's going to have to be upon there. And so whatever comes forward is going to have to absorb the water that's on the land. But I also like the idea of opening it up for ease of access, both by foot and by car. So those are, those are good ideas and I like that. But, you know, I, if we can get a rough idea of any idea of the price of this land, I think that would help our discussions a lot. And again, it's use and economic concern. But those are just sort of my big level thoughts. You know, I saw the pictures of the townhomes and the kindos or apartments and that's such a beautiful plan. But I also know that this is a big piece of land. It costs us a lot to buy it. And what is it worth to resell and how can we incorporate that in a way that affects our long term financial stability. Can I respond with something you say? I just want to be clear. I'm not suggesting that we have a budget conversation today. I'm a third of the queen. You don't have some target, some aspiration that we want to put to share a budget here perspective will never achieve. And so I have had lots of conversations. I've got some ideas. 100%. But I'm not suggesting anything today from that perspective. But if we continue to make decisions without some kind of framework. Then we're not going to be looking at things holistically. And so that's all I mean. And so I just gave one example is you look at it that way. A second one, we could say, let's look at our service costs per household. There's a bunch of that city has already looked at. I'm just saying at some point, we got to be thinking that way. And if we don't do that, then I think we oftentimes it's easier to make a decision to say, well, this is about affordable housing, which I care about deeply. So we should do this without thinking about how we're going to pay for it. That's all I'm saying. And then from the affordability standpoint. 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I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be able to do that. Microgrids. Just give me. They are becoming so important. This is a space that is about one mile away from Open Access Technology International in Bloomington. In Minnesota, we've got the University of Minnesota, the University of St. Thomas working on microgrids. Microgrids are paired with fire stations so that when the power is out, you have more security in terms of your energy. It is a way to mitigate rising costs of electricity. I don't know if putting in a microgrid and we've got three phase power right along the western edge of that. It's also two miles from the Excel Energy substation. So it seems the city would own and manage or we would sell it and have someone do that. I'm thinking it's worth exploring on either of those levels. I don't know if Frauentjou would be interested in having a microgrid. I don't know if anybody else in that industrial zone would be interested in a microgrid, but there are grants out there for them. Back in April, I emailed Scott one of those. Then a resident just emailed me. There's one coming up. There's a deadline on the 17th of this month so there's no way we can do that. But I brought this article and I would ask manager Neil to forward the email that I sent to you to all the council members. But this is technology that is becoming more pervasive. The grid is getting older and more unreliable. It just seems like to not even explore this possible potential for this land is really an oversight. I think it could add value to any sale price that we might want to pursue. It could be an educational thing. I could see our energy and environment commission being interested in learning more about it. But if you're comfortable with moving forth an RFP, that could be one of the elements that we reference. We would love to see ideas that incorporate this. I think that still then would help raise up that price point. That's where we can really compare price points. I do think it's an idea that is really worth pursuing. But the other thing is we need to talk with the parcels around us too. Because I don't know how they might feel about having housing in this space. I went out to the land yesterday. It really does not feel like you're surrounded. All of the buildings are facing their backs to this land. You feel as if you're in an area where housing would normally be. I could see there being concerned with people cutting through parking lots. If you want to go to Trader Joe's, you're going to cut through the medical center parking lot. There's a lot of things that really do concern me about. I would not want an RFP to go forward that was super residential focused. I do want to say I support affordable housing. We have invested nearly $6 million in affordable housing this year. The 4.86 for those 15 units. I think holistic analysis is really needed. I appreciate what my colleagues have said about that. On a personal note, my neighbors are leaving. Part of the reason is because of property taxes. They're moving to Minneapolis. You might think, oh, well, Minneapolis, they're higher. But as my neighbor said, any dina, it's not just that you're raising the property taxes so much. You're also assessing us for roads. And so that's a double whammy. And it hit my neighborhood. We got assessed recently. We're going to see the president's neighborhood getting those assessments. We had a resident come forward and say $9,000 is a lot. And it is and Minneapolis assess. For your construction as well, not to the degree that he dina does. And so it just is. Really kind of unnerving to really think about. Us entering into the situation and I do think. It's important to invest in affordable housing, but at the same time. The number of emails I'm getting. And you know, you think about back when we were talking about. Raising density in e dina for the first time and I remember it's drill. You know, sometimes you remember things very specifically and I remember. Council members, Staunton saying. This will be really good for the property owners of e dina because it's a way we'll be able to keep taxes low. And the problem is as we've added buildings, density and I talked to a consultant about. Me as on green and I said, you know, I was like, why did we do this? It's seven stories high and it was zoned for four and two stories. Why do cities do this? And he said, well, you know, it's a way to. Bring down property taxes or keep them stable. And then I said, but we tifted and he nearly fell off his chair. And the thing is we keep tipping multifamily. You know, when we we tift, you know, there's, there's so many that we tift and. You know, this is not a discussion about tip. We're going to have that discussion another day and I prefer to keep it for that. So let's, let's talk about. Timeline. What you need for that. Well, what does that thing? Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to this conversation. I think it's premature to ask what she needs. I think conversation is a certain direction. He's got one idea. No, the thing that I heard, I mean, I haven't heard really like what my next steps are. I don't know if there's agreement on that other than there is interest in the valuation of the land and I don't know if that is. Engaging someone to do assessment, not an assessment, but. The first thing we did when we moved the public works to the new location. The first thing we did was we got the phrase on that land on the 3.3 acres by now, what it was worth. What was it worth? Three point eight or something. Over a decade ago. And so what are we getting for about four million? Oh, right. Four million. We shall. So, you know, in terms of how wide the cast on that is, James says, I'll be framed this up. I'm not wedded either to the idea of how it's guided. That's the point you're making is let's look. Let's look at a broad range of possibilities. Sure. It's been a quasi industrial. And who do we would for I want you to like to buy it? I don't know. Well, you know, I think. If you open it up to the public, you can come in. I'm not comfortable just doing one on one conversations. I think you can do that as well. Say, you know, there's this RFP out there, but I wouldn't want to limit it to just the neighboring. Bill. Yeah. You want to broad broad RFP. They're certainly welcome to come in and have conversations bill is a really accessible guy. And they know him. But I think if we could put out get in appraisal as a brilliant idea and say, you know, basically. We've looked at this kind of layout of this piece of property. So you can use that, but it don't limit it to housing. Tell us what your best and you know, if the appraisal can kind of look at multiple uses, because I think it is fluid enough in the zoning and land use that it can accommodate a lot of uses. Yeah, I think to me that those are the what we want to call next steps or whatever appraise the property. And we want to frame in RFP. And then the content of what's in there, right? We could discuss that general in general. Yeah. And then. The process we used just recently is a good process and then we get options to look at. Is there a chance that doing an appraisal would. Lower the kind of proposals that we get. Sure. The number of the value. The value. I think we also need more clarification on how this land lot parcel is going to have road access. And the impact on the fire station. If it is going to be through their side parking lot. I agree with that. But I tried to. Not judge how the developer is going to present whatever they want to do. And then we have to assess whether or not that's right for the site and their various challenges to that. And you talk about a few this morning. And so I think we have to evaluate those as the proposals come. But I do want developers to be aware that. This could be an issue. I think that's fair. And I totally hear you. You know, we need to see what they come up with, but. There needs to be transparency about the challenges of this. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or. 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