[0:21] okay looks like we're ready to go well good morning everybody and [0:27] welcome to uh the meeting of the Housing and Redevelopment Authority on Thursday [0:32] December 19 2024 it is 7:32 a.m. and uh the people that work for the [0:40] city Den are furiously cleaning the parking lot and the sidewalks and all of us have made it in uh member Pierce is [0:46] out of town but we will uh we will be able to get some good work done with the four of us here so I'm going to uh [0:54] remind people that these meetings are uh hybrid nature and uh folks may be watching online they'll be able to call [1:01] in for Community comment uh there is no public hearing this morning so they'll be able to call in for Community comment [1:07] if they have an issue they want to address with the HRA that's not on the agenda this morning or scheduled for a [1:12] future public hearing uh having provided that information I'll call me in order and [1:18] ask that the role be called commissioner Risser here [1:24] commissioner Jackson here commissioner agnu here chair huin here uh next is the [1:29] Pledge of Allegiance flag of the United States of [1:37] America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible [1:44] with liberty and justice for [1:49] all we've got a form of meeting agenda that's been published uh in advance of [1:54] this meeting and uh for the public and for the HRA Commissioners as well is [2:00] there anyone on staff or commissioner that wishes to modify the meeting agenda any form in any form or fashion is there [2:06] a motion to approve the meeting agenda as published so moved a second got a motion by commissioner Jackson second by [2:11] commissioner agnu to approve the meeting agenda as published any further conversation on that issue all those in [2:17] favor of approval of the meeting agenda is published say I I I opposed carried meeting agenda is [2:24] approved uh the next thing on that meeting agenda is community comment so let's uh get that phone number up on the [2:31] screen and then is there anyone in the audience who wishes to address the uh H in a matter of concern to [2:39] them all right see no one coming forward uh we'll check with you director benat I [2:47] do not have um any residents on the call right now however because there is a brief delay in the broadcast I'd [2:54] recommend we wait one minute before moving on to give people that opportunity if they're interested my CL [3:00] shows it at 7:35 I will come back to you at 7:36 or when I have a call or [3:05] whichever is first all right however we're waiting for that I just want to congratulate you on that uh making it in [3:11] here this morning requiring you to leave at 5:30 in the morning to get here by [3:22] 7:30 oh [3:28] yeah for [4:09] all right it's okay our executive director usually [4:16] reports out on any uh committee comments that were made on the uh at the prior meeting do we have anything to report [4:22] out on nothing to report on today my recollection as well uh there [4:27] are three items on the consent agenda this morning morning is there any commissioner that wishes to remove an IT item from the consent [4:34] agenda is there a motion to approve the items on the consent agenda a single motion I second commissioner Jackson [4:40] moves and commissioner U seconds the adoption of the items on the consent agenda and a single motion any further [4:46] conversation on that issue all those in favor of adoption of the items on the consent agenda and a single motion say I [4:52] I I opposed carried the consent agenda items are approved and adopted uh and [5:00] now we are going to go to the heart of the meeting this morning which is the reports and recommendations portion of [5:05] the agenda we got a couple of matters to deal with there plus some executive [5:10] director comments and the first matter up this morning is um something that um [5:16] our uh staff people and the uh developer have been working on along with our advisers from Ellers and dorsy and [5:23] Whitney and that is related to affordable housing and our affordable housing development manager Stephanie [5:29] hackinson has this matter M hackinson welcome good to have you here thank you [5:34] good morning it it's a pleasure driving [5:41] in uh today I am seeking support for the proposed development at 7200 France as [5:48] you know this parcel is the northwest corner of 72nd and France across from [5:53] the Macy's Furniture Store and you've seen this before as we've talked about this project so this is what it is right now [6:00] when you are driving South on France Avenue the um property is vacant it was [6:06] a um office building that became functionally Obsolete and has been [6:11] demolished and and I apologize for the next slide I am not a graphic artist but [6:16] this is what it could be if you um the same view if you were driving down south after the apartment has been um [6:25] developed but in order for this to happen it needs financial assistance [6:34] the two Parcels at 7200 and 7250 are already located in a tiff district with [6:40] Tiff financing awarded to the development of 7250 which includes the public infrastructure on both Parcels [6:47] with the Redevelopment agreement that was approved for 7250 it's anticipated that 7200 would be a hotel and not need [6:55] gap financing the hotel proved not to be financially feasible so the develop of 7250 formed a new partnership with Aon [7:02] Development Group to develop 150 unit apartment the elements in included in [7:07] the existing Redevelopment agreement remain the same as listed on the slide including the north south Road and Trail [7:14] the street scaping and permanent public [7:19] easements the financing that was approved for 7250 included 90% of the [7:25] tax increment that would be collected from the development of both sites there are two notes one tied to the [7:30] development of 7250 itself and the other tied to the development of 7200 it was [7:36] anticipated that the Tiff district will be placed for a maximum of 26 years 10% [7:41] of the collected increment would be directed to the HRA for administrative expenses and or [7:49] pooling as stated the developer pivoted from the earlier anticipated anticipation that a hotel would be [7:55] developed at 7200 the plan preliminarily approved approved on November 6 shows a 150 unit [8:02] apartment building as stated there is a financial gap in order to construct this [8:08] in November I came before you with a proposal that reflected 8% of the units affordable imp perpetuity which would be [8:15] a deviation from the affordable housing policy that requires 10% of the units to be affordable yet the policy allows for [8:22] the Housing and Redevelopment Authority and the city council to approve exemptions from the policy based on [8:28] alternative public purposes this exchange of affordable units in order to extend the affordability period [8:34] and reduce the amount of Gap needed seemed to align with that policy yet a deviation from the policy [8:41] may require amendments to ordinance and resolution that were passed for site [8:48] plan so today I will present an alternative that aligns with the policy [8:54] with 10% of the units being affordable to address the commissioner's expressed support of permanent afford [8:59] affordability the developer wants to have the units remain affordable in perpetuity with more units affordable [9:06] the amount of requested Gap has [9:12] increased okay the affordable housing policy states that when the H City [9:17] financing is involved the units must remain affordable for a minimum of 30 years prior to the last legislative [9:24] session permanent affordability was not allowed to be secured by a declaration of restrictive covenants that was [9:31] changed but the policy has not yet been changed to reflect that until the legislative change occurred the policy [9:38] captured long affordability periods through the use of the word minimum to allow some flexibility as developments [9:44] get negotiated the Pud ordinance States for any Housing Development affordable [9:50] housing units must be included in the project per the city's affordable housing policy at the time of final [9:56] approval similarly the resolution States The Phase 2 project must provide the [10:01] required affordable housing units within the building to be compliant with the city's affordable housing policy the [10:07] ordinance still requires a second reading prior to final adoption and the site plan still requires final approval [10:15] staff have been advised by the City attorney that to proceed with a deviation to the policy whether a [10:20] reduction or addition to the policy's prescribed terms the proposed development would need to restart the [10:26] public approval process including reopening the public hearings due to the [10:31] time and constraints and spending down the spark funds going through the site plan approval process again is just not [10:39] feasible in addition to providing affordable housing 7200 France Apartments provides other public [10:46] benefits such as improving Equity inclusion on the job site the developers working with their expected general [10:52] contractor to make good faith efforts in ACH in achieving inclusionary goals [11:00] the proposed development also contributes to the tax base as a vacant parcel as it is now [11:07] 72725 have had a declining tax value since 2017 as the city's overall tax capacity [11:14] has increased these Parcels valuation has gone in the opposite direction because of that decline these Parcels [11:20] are cont contributing less and less to the general Community funding needs by way of an example in 2017 for every $100 [11:29] that the city levied for its budget these two properties were responsible for 15 cents right now for every $100 [11:36] the city levies they are only responsible for 9 cents the rest of the tax base is making up the six cents [11:42] difference some of that some of the share of the difference is New Growth but some is also other properties that [11:48] have appreciated since 2017 whereas this one has not there's more than we want to [11:54] get into but the point is that the Tiff District was created to help turn around that phenomenon [12:02] once developed and no longer in Tiff the two Parcels expected tax value would be [12:07] responsible for 78 cents of the share of $100 this parcel's existing value will [12:14] still be providing the same nine um 9% share or excuse me 9 Cent [12:20] share during the Tiff District but the properties would be taken on a much larger share once [12:26] complete and 7250 is happily on its way to becoming a [12:35] reality so what will it cost to bring this back on the tax as a strong [12:40] contributing um member of the tax base in November I presented a budget [12:46] that reflected a gap of 3.8 million that supported development that included only 12 affordable units as stated with [12:53] deviation as stated previously it's not feasible to reopen the public hearing process to seek that deviation due to [12:59] identified funding source therefore we rewrote the development with 15 affordable units adding three affordable [13:06] units reduces the net operating income and impacts investors returns we are now [13:12] seeking just shy of 4.9 million without City financing the rate of return on the investor Equity is far below Market as [13:20] investors can invest anywhere globally and are not tied to investing in Indina let alone Minnesota the 12.7 million in [13:28] investor equity is not achievable unless Market rates are turn uh market returns [13:33] are achieved the 4.9 million requested is 88.8% of the total development cost [13:39] as compared to 23% that comes from investor [13:45] Equity there was a time when market rate developments could absorb the reduced rents on affordable units that was prior [13:51] to covid increasing interest rates and labor shortages as stated investors can invest [13:57] anywhere and generally inv in projects and in areas where the risk and reward [14:02] investment is easiest when the stock market was weaker investing in Housing Development was more attractive [14:08] alternative multif family developers and financers have reported that investors are shying away from the Twin City's [14:14] metropolitan area due to the introduction of rent control taking route in St Paul that it kind of they [14:20] look at the Metro as a whole the region for some is deemed too risky [14:25] developments and Ed are subject to these Market forces other drivers include interest rates as these increase less [14:32] Capital can be borrowed the development is also including covered parking that serve 7250 for which they are not [14:39] receiving Revenue this is a requirement of the Redevelopment agreement for 7250 finally City policies do impact [14:48] costs staff is recommending that spark funds be used and structured as a forgivable loan within the Redevelopment [14:55] agreement there are loan terms that must be adhered to achieve and forgive the funds the requirements are as follows [15:01] that they must be ready to go by July 1st they will disposit the spark funds [15:06] and with an escrow agent and we will draw on the funds during the construction period until December 1st [15:12] to meet the deadlines they will develop 150 units of residential housing create [15:18] 15 affordable units comply with a Sustainable Building policy Supply a certificate of completion and the loan [15:25] will be forgiven upon proving up qualified costs we will look at the budget once construction's done to make [15:31] sure that what we're seeing now it's similar to what we see at the end or it accounts for the need at the [15:38] end and the return on cost of the investor will not exceed 7% and there will be a declaration of [15:44] restrictive covenants regarded recorded against the property that will keep the units affordable in perpetuity as is now [15:50] allowed with the state legislation last year so why spark well one reason is [15:59] that um these were awarded in 2021 and we discussed this at the [16:06] November and at the Macy site so I'm not going to go in a great deal of detail here but the mo main point is the state [16:12] legislation provided limited Authority the cities to use unallocated pool to Spur development the funding Authority [16:19] expires at the end of 2025 unused spark funds would be returned to the county [16:24] with the city Only receiving a portion of it to keep the entirety of the fund within the city staff is requesting that [16:31] they be used to make the 7200 France Apartments reality and get the property [16:37] on higher level in the tax roles including the public benefits previously mentioned and the remainder um [16:45] supporting The Enclave development at the Macy site the estimated timeline for both developments would allow the city [16:50] to invest all the spark funds [16:56] locally as stated previous ly there were there are legislative requirements [17:01] regarding the spark funds that each project must deliver new construction or [17:07] substantial Rehabilitation of brick and mortar structures it must create jobs including at minimum construction jobs [17:14] and it must um be determined to be able to to proceed without or unable to [17:20] proceed without Public Funding spark funds currently have um [17:28] had a beginning balance about 9.3 million there have been some awards made [17:34] um and with today's request of 4.86 million there would be um about 59 [17:43] 591 th000 that would be allocated to offset the Tiff awarded to the Macy [17:54] site so again today I'm seeking approval for the just shy of 4.9 million in [18:01] forgivable loan using spark funds to support the development of this project and again this is greater than [18:08] what I asked for in November but that's due to having more affordable [18:17] units questions to consider when making this decision will the spark funds be used to [18:24] Spur development is it preferable to use Tim limited spark funds to Spur [18:29] development at the site or wait for the development that may or may not that may not need gap financing because we don't [18:35] know if we if this doesn't get developed we don't know what the future holds a lower value development or a [18:43] longer time vacant requires longer duration of the existing Tiff District that's already there and I'll get into [18:49] that a little bit more later and which is preferable 8% of the units affordable in perpetuity or 10% of the units in [18:56] perpetuity the first option would require revisiting the [19:03] Pud so we also part another part of this request is amending the existing um [19:10] Redevelopment agreement at 7200 7250 and so we have three hypotheticals [19:15] of what would occur one is 7200 remains vacant for a surface parking lot two is [19:21] that um spark funds are used to Spur the development at 7200 for the apartments [19:27] and three we wait around for a future possible development that could occur at [19:33] that site and here are the um tax capacities the existing is in [19:39] Orange um then we have hypothetical one hypothetical 2 and hypo excuse me [19:45] hypothetical 3 clearly the one that brings in the greatest tax capacity is with the creation of [19:51] 7200 Apartments [20:01] so hypothetical one this is the existing Redevelopment agreement with the 5.9 [20:06] million Tiff note that has already been awarded to 7250 France so if [20:14] 7200 is not developed the second Tiff note will not be available 10% of the [20:19] administration fee would be collected which would equate to about [20:24] $685,000 it's estimated that to pay that Tiff note the Tiff District would need to be open for the full 26 years with a [20:31] decertification occurring in 2051 If Today um's request is approved [20:37] using spark funds 7250 would benefit from the second Tiff note and the [20:43] estimated term for the payment of both notes is reduced to 16 years due to the increment created by 7200 in addition [20:51] with approval of the First Amendment 20% of the increment could be directed to the HRA Administration and could bring [20:56] in 2.3 million for pool scholing or for public [21:02] infrastructure it could be used for affordable housing or other eligible [21:07] costs under this scenario the Tiff District could get a decertification in [21:12] 2041 versus 2051 10 years earlier than at the Tiff than if 7200 does not come [21:20] online oh that was hypothetical [21:26] 2 and then hyp itical 3 is wait for some future development at 7200 that is yet [21:37] unknown the first Tiff note for 7250 is not impacted but the second one is as [21:44] they require 7200 to provide enclosed parking and we don't know when a future [21:50] project could come forward what it looks like we don't know and it would have to include based on the existing [21:55] Redevelopment agreement include the enclosed parking but other than that it there's not too [22:01] many unknowns we don't know when it will happen and so the estimated term of the [22:08] Tiff District that's already in place would be again the full 26 years the HRA [22:13] administrative portion would remain 10% to ensure the adequate increment is available to cover the existing 7250 [22:20] note and the estimated crew funds with a possible future development is increased [22:26] about $997,000 so here are those three hypotheticals [22:31] next to each other that shows the comparison of keeping it as a surface [22:36] parking lot not approving it waiting hypothetical 3 for future possible [22:42] unknown development or today what's before you today is hypothetical [22:51] to finally there's an impact on the development of affordable housing scorecard with the addition of 15 units [22:58] I remain affordable in perpetuity which would be the only the second project that would have in perpetuity the first [23:04] one was 4040 and that's 100% affordable so this would be the first one within a market rate [23:10] development we would achieve over 50% of our goal for 50% Ami [23:16] units and then I just wanted because it was mentioned at a previous meeting um I included this slide to show the impact [23:23] of the affordable housing policy so PRI the 10 years prior to the [23:29] adoption of the policy by the city council and the HRA um that is what you see in the [23:36] green um very little was happening in single family ownership that was affordable nothing in Noah preservation [23:44] 100% affordable um there was one project in that 10-year period 66 West and [23:51] inclusionary housing um towards right before the policy was approved there was [23:57] some negot ating to include affordable units after the policy in the 10 years [24:03] since then you can see a mark difference so there has been some impact so I just [24:08] wanted to share that with you and I have other supporting document [24:14] um information that was included in the packet but it's t gently related to this [24:20] so I'm available for questions and Ted is here and our um legal and financial [24:27] advisers are here and Ari is in left his home at 6:15 and we are expecting him at [24:33] some point right questions from Commissioners for manager hackinson yes you can [24:42] let pardon me commissioner AG thank you very much for the thorough [24:48] presentation um so my first question is about hypothetical number three um and [24:53] so in one of well in a few of the views we were able to see that the the kind of [24:59] future tax base estimation was lower than hypothetical number two can you [25:05] walk through what assumptions were going into that that led to a lower tax base in the future I am going to defer to Mr [25:13] anut on that [25:18] one thank you Commissioners Nick an Hut with Ellers and Associates financial advisers to the [25:23] H um and I assisted in putting together these hypotheticals uh we have the benefit of the original agreement with [25:30] 7250 that did contemplate a hotel on that site and so as a commercial Hotel [25:36] the uh property classification is slightly different from a rental property so that's one change it's also [25:43] a lower taxable valuation uh housing in Idina is a uh [25:49] appreciates and has a higher value than many commercial properties on a per [25:55] square foot or even on a a per unit basis um and so we did use that hotel uh model [26:03] because that is actually what was agreed upon and what stands today to serve as what that potential development could be [26:10] we also looked at what if there were some other type of um you know surface level type improvements to have a maybe [26:16] a slightly lower uh commercial footprint and still provide some of the parking that would need to be shared and all of [26:23] those seem to be at a valuation less than that hotel so that's the one that we we use [26:30] thank you and am I correct in understanding kind of at a macro level [26:35] the reason that we would assume the footprint would be smaller is because if [26:42] in the near future it remained as a parking lot after that it would no longer be um [26:48] eligible for Tiff funding and therefore the scale of the project might be smaller which would also like draw to a [26:55] lower tax base am I understanding that correctly I think I think there's a couple of different uh things so right now it is potentially going to be used [27:02] for shared parking to serve the parcel to the South so anything that does happen on it needs to [27:09] address that shared parking reality which means that you need to maybe over [27:14] build specifically on 7200 that's going to come at a cost to the to develop that [27:21] property not saying it can't be overcome but so I I don't think this has anything to do with the existing Tiff Arrangement [27:27] it's more of just the practicality on that site and what could come forward that is either not going to need [27:33] additional assistance which would change the analysis um and be marketable on its [27:39] own and so that's kind of the the thought on that okay and maybe I was [27:46] misunderstanding or thinking about the future scenario differently so if this [27:52] housing project were to not move forward and it were to remain a parking lot for some time and Redevelopment happened on [27:58] it in 5 years would that project be eligible for Tiff [28:03] funding it would so um the developers investment on the 7250 agreement is [28:10] actually encompassing the entire two properties and all the site improvements [28:15] that were approved as part of that um land use Arrangement so they're [28:20] investing in all of the site work and infrastructure that serves both [28:26] Parcels the agreement was struck within the Tiff that you know we didn't exactly know exactly what was going to be built [28:33] vertically on 7200 and we didn't necessarily have a time frame where we [28:38] could really hold them to it and so as a condition the additional Tiff that was [28:45] necessary to build all those site improvements we're going to hold back on that until something actually happens on [28:51] 7200 so you're not obligated to make payments on that note even though the invest investment and all the [28:58] improvements have already incurred so anything that happens on that site is going to help fund that initial [29:06] investment that is already made that is consistent across all of these hypotheticals it's just a matter of to [29:12] what degree it's going to provide funding capacity within the Tiff District that can pay that balance down [29:19] and in the case of the housing it's at a much higher degree that allows for that [29:25] Tiff obligation to be satisfied much earlier where is if it's a hotel or even [29:30] a lesser commercial development it's going to take a longer period of time in the full capacity of that Tiff District [29:38] that makes sense it does thank you my last question then is for manager [29:45] hackinson so the calculation that I did is for the increase for the additional [29:52] three units um similar to my question when we were talking about this last time um it's approximate imely [29:59] 364,000 per additional unit that we're making an investment for um talk to me [30:06] about how that feels to you compared to other ways that we could make similar [30:11] Investments within the community chair Commissioners [30:18] um first of all we'd have to combine all the 15 units and divide that the Gap by [30:24] all five because in part with the additional three units um some of them [30:30] are larger units uh two-bedroom units so [30:35] it so the impact of the difference between the rent that the market rate [30:41] rents and the affordable rents um has a it decreases the net operating income [30:49] overall which is what causes the Gap so for it so overall let me see I [30:56] have it in here what the Gap [31:01] is so it would be 324,000 per unit when it's 15 units of [31:09] Gap and that is completely consistent with what we have seen actually even [31:16] prior to covid is what it would what the cost is the loss of Revenue uh by having [31:24] affordable units in a market rate development so that is consistent thank you um and again with a 100% affordable [31:32] that may be the gap for 100% affordable and an affordable unit but you have a lot more sources of money to access from [31:39] the state the county the Met Council in market rate developments you don't it all rests with the city so that is [31:45] completely aligned thank you and just want to clarify one thing you said so the additional three units that we're [31:51] adding in and would get as a part of this mix in hypothetical number two [31:56] those three units are two bedroom they include more of the larger units so [32:02] um it is um if I'm my memory serves me three Stu [32:11] uh uh elov which are semi- Studios they have a private [32:17] wall five bedroom five one-bedrooms five one bedrooms plus den [32:23] and two two bedrooms so we increased the one-bedroom Plus then in the two bedrooms when we increase the number of [32:30] units okay so before it would have been the three Al Cove the 51 bed and four [32:36] one bed plus Den so we're getting larger units with getting larger units with the three [32:42] additional thank you very much that concludes my questions commissioner [32:48] Jackson yes thank you Mr chair so going back to the chart that showed um the tax [32:55] value of this I'm confused as to where no back further than [33:00] that um and they're not I one thing I I would prefer if the slides were numbered [33:06] because I'm trying to take notes I'm like well that slide there um if it's possible on PowerPoint to in in the [33:12] future because then I could like write down go to slide four they are when they when we create them but when they're put [33:18] in presentation view the numbers go away okay um so looking at this slide I was [33:26] confused will the tax revenue from 7200 [33:31] France go to pay off the Tiff note or will it go into the coffers of the city [33:37] this looks like the this is the tax capacity and and that's how much it [33:43] grows but that's going to the revenue from that is going to go towards paying down the Tiff for the overall site it's [33:49] not going to go into the general fund is that correct that is correct with with [33:56] 7200 the Tiff note would be in place for an estimated 16 years versus 26 years okay [34:04] so it would go back into the the regular tax base that the Tiff could be the [34:11] council um could desertify the district early and then it would go back to the [34:18] General Revenue uh the tax allocators um you may [34:25] decide at that point to not decertify it early and to pull it um but that would [34:31] yes it would be in place so 7200 would contribute to the Tiff note that is in place okay good thank you I I got a [34:38] little um oh wow that's a lot of tax revenue but um but it's it's going to the increment will go to pay off the [34:44] Tiff note and the Tiff note will be paid off more quickly with this inclusion and [34:49] and Mr an Hut made that was my other question I think commissioner agnu asked that this would in hypothetical three [34:57] still be available for Tiff funding Tiff funding would be available for a development there because the whole um [35:03] site is the Tiff District yes and I'm going to have yeah [35:09] there would be but um some of the increment from whatever it's developed in the future would be to support the [35:15] bote on 7250 so the what's left over once those [35:20] two notes are paid is smaller okay so that would support a future development plus the Tiff District the Tiff District [35:26] would already be in place so the term is short the remaining term [35:32] would be shorter too which would decrease how much would be available okay that's very helpful thank you Comm [35:38] rer thank you and I have some questions that I may need Nick to respond to [35:45] um I did a little digging and it wasn't for this project but it was for another [35:51] Tiff issue and um came across language but I wasn't able to [35:57] pursue it that said Tiff financing cannot be used to pay for improvements that serve mainly decorative or [36:04] aesthetic purposes is that true or maybe I don't want to put you on [36:09] the spot but here's my concern um and I agree with the stipulation that [36:15] affordable units need to be the same as all the other units in the buildings and [36:21] you know not have what you know have those granite countertops and not the olum and all [36:28] that but is that a decorative element and can we even be using Tiff in this [36:35] situation this actually might be a question better served for Mr lingren um but my experience on the topic of what [36:42] you can finance that um that language is not present in the statute um but it's [36:49] some guidance as far as specifically providing what I would say is is more [36:56] like a public type of uh Improvement um for apologies to you and [37:03] to Mr lingren I too early the coffee hasn't kicked in if you could respond to [37:13] that chair Commissioners uh Jaylen G dorsy and Whitney special counsel of the H I agree with what Mr an HUD said [37:23] um the way that I've always interpreted it is is that you can use tax increment [37:28] for what I would call placemaking I mean and so doing elements that create the [37:35] the there there if you will aren't purely just decorative now to your [37:41] question about which is what I think it is is is if we're ultimately using tax increment to change the quality of the [37:49] affordable units is that what you were talking about is that you were thinking is decorative because I'm not sure [37:55] that's what's happening here no that's not what I'm what I know and actually I [38:00] mean all of the units are the same and there are decorative elements in it and [38:05] Tiff is there's language that says if the cost of equipment is higher because [38:12] of the design attached to it and I'm thinking you know a refrigerator that looks really beautiful is probably more [38:19] expensive than an ordinary looking one um you know and so does that apply in [38:27] this situation like can we actually be investing Tiff in a market rate [38:34] development um for affordable units thank you yeah so so two two answers to [38:40] your question first of all I I think we can because actually what we're doing is [38:45] not necessarily paying for those elements we're paying for other gaps within the project I mean for example [38:53] you don't under your policy but actually under the Redevelopment TI District law [38:58] you could pay for bricks and mortar for a building you know so the question is does somehow does it become more [39:04] decorative than what's necessary but actually in this case and I'm not trying to avoid the question but there is a [39:10] very direct answer which is for 7200 we are using spark funds which aren't the [39:17] same as Redevelopment dist District Tiff proceeds that special 2021 legislation [39:25] has a much broader use of funds and actually allows you to invest pretty [39:31] much anything as long as it Spurs private development okay I mean I could go deeper than that but actually even if [39:38] we were to apply that decorative in this case as you were talking about it wouldn't apply to 7200 because that [39:45] isn't the source of the Tiff funds does that make sense um thank you that is [39:50] helpful okay and then the other questions um a com well a comment okay [39:56] for this project um we have granted variances that do have value um going from four to six [40:03] stories so that adds value to the project we um allowed it to have a mass [40:10] that's about 150% of what the building is on 7250 so [40:17] that adds value and I feel like we've already provided quite a bit for this [40:23] project um the other comment that I need to make is that I'm not viewing spark [40:30] funds in that deadline of um December 31st 2025 as you know a I'm not seeing [40:38] it as use it or lose it um because I know we could take funds turn them back [40:44] over to henpen County a third of that could flow into our general fund I you [40:51] know there are things that we could support um that we I you know I the [40:57] would be very important in in my view to support and so the spark fund use it or [41:03] lose it philosophy is something that I want to push back against um we have [41:09] already gone through the process of a public hearing I know that's a lot of time and a lot of energy so I see the [41:17] logic of going back to 10% affordable housing however you know given what we [41:23] have provided already and also with spark it's not just use it or lose it [41:29] but it's ensure that it is being invested in a financially responsible [41:35] Manner and uh you know I get the whole point of it needs to spark development [41:41] and I'm not sure even adding this is going to get things going and across the [41:46] Finish Line uh the other thing is I feel like total cost is not calculated when [41:51] we look at these projects yes residential will generate more Revenue but over over that 16-year period it [41:59] will probably also draw more on our Municipal resources um our police and [42:05] that's not calculated in and we really need to start getting um total cost when [42:11] we're being asked to weigh these projects um overall it's adding more [42:17] market rate yes there'll be 15 units of affordable we have already gone past and [42:22] I don't know if you have the number of how many units we have built Beyond what the Met council is asking us to build of [42:30] market rate by 2030 we have passed that I do not have that number I do I did [42:38] include you know just on a broad scale there is still a housing shortage [42:46] in the metropolitan area and there is in in Minnesota and nationally and that's [42:53] market rate that's affordable that's everything so there is a there is a housing crisis generally and so they we [43:01] had um when the Met Council they do give a forecast of what they anticipate the [43:07] market rate development will be but it's not a limit by any means um and we have [43:14] seen you know this is from the Twin Cities housing Alliance that there has been a sharp decline in multif family [43:20] permits and they do anticipate that rents in the next couple years on market rate developments as well are going to [43:27] go up tremendously because of the shortage of housing that's being built so I'm not [43:33] personally um concerned about market rate developments being built because it [43:38] overall it helps the overall Supply in the region thank [43:46] you that is all I have thank you [43:52] commissioner so you know one of the things I think that you inferred in your [43:57] presentation is that uh the use of these spark funds under either uh scenario one [44:02] or scenario two essentially becomes a public investment in affordable housing [44:07] in perpetuity in our community is that right that is correct is that is that a fair assumption on my [44:13] part assumtion and and the way we describe These funds these spark funds [44:19] as use it or lose it by 12 3125 is not I don't you know it's not quite for [44:26] me it's it's it's use it on projects that we think meet the requirements of the statute or it goes back to its [44:34] conventional distribution formula whatever is left at 12 3125 and that I [44:40] think what you're telling us is that based on your analysis with the Public Finance people that we use [44:48] and our attorneys and your own uh analysis as an expert in field think [44:53] that this is a worthwhile investment making to help us achieve our affordable housing goals chair Commissioners I do I also [45:02] think that right now we have a roughly $6 million a spark and why not invest it [45:09] in Idina um since it was the city was allowed to use this 6 million for this [45:15] type of purpose why not keep all of it within the city that will ultimately [45:21] have a long-term return that will benefit the city and and you're calculation at [45:27] 324,000 per unit for those 15 units uh the inference I got there too [45:35] is that aligns with our past practice and I'm thinking of our investment in [45:41] Aon uh or some of the other things that we've done in our community chair Commissioners the city's investment in [45:48] affordable housing units on a 100% affordable is less per unit because of [45:54] these other funding partners that we have being able to tap into the state the county the Metropolitan Council we [46:01] don't have access to those other sources when it comes to Affordable units within a market rate building but the the [46:08] dollar amount is in line with what the Gap is on an affordable unit it just [46:13] when it's in a market rate building it rests on the city rather than being able to be spread out through all these other [46:19] funding sources but yes the the amount is in align in [46:25] alignment understood yeah that might not be the total cost per door but it is is [46:31] that another way of saying it um what I'm saying is I believe that with some [46:36] of our other projects the city contribution to an affordable unit and 100% affordable project is roughly 50 or [46:43] 60,000 per door we're here but the overall gap for that door is about [46:50] 350 actually more because affordable housing is very expensive to do because you have so many funding sources and so [46:57] many attorneys and so many uh hands in the that um the cost to [47:04] develop affordable housing unit is over 400,000 and this is actually about 370,000 so it's less expensive actually [47:12] to develop often not always depends on the building um a market rate because of [47:18] all the variables that are involved in an affordable but the city [47:24] portion is smaller in 100% affordable development because so many sources are [47:30] brought in so the city responsibility for an affordable units is greater in a [47:36] market rate development but the Gap and aggregate is in [47:42] line helpful too I'm thinking about when we had this conversation around the Macy's site um [47:49] and just generally from seeing uh what we're experiencing I think [47:55] metrowide you know the to reinforce the data that you had up in front of us here [48:00] about uh pressure on housing in terms of production and cost uh I was in a meeting a couple [48:07] months ago with the with the Met Council and legislators and others other cities around the metro and this they expressed [48:15] the uh the thought that uh by 2050 we're going to add another 650,000 people in [48:21] the metropolitan area we're going to get some of those folks coming in here but that those uh that 650,000 people were [48:28] going to require an additional 300,000 plus housing units it's going to be a [48:34] variety of different housing units uh whether it's multif family or single family or Noah uh [48:42] those those production um responsibilities are going to fall on [48:47] everybody and so uh as we go about this process of seeing a little bit of growth [48:53] in our town relative to the rest of the metro area uh and it's in market rate uh [49:00] primarily uh I think the city has been looking at this at least the way I have been looking at it is that if we want to [49:06] make an investment in these market rate buildings to make sure that we accomplish our goals regarding affordable housing and we need to step [49:13] up because because you can't expect the developers anymore to be able to you [49:20] know require of them uh 10% affordability and perpetuity on a project and have it be feasible and so [49:26] then nothing happens in your town with respect to your obligations around creating [49:32] housing so though this is a significant amount of money we do have sources [49:38] available that are helpful and this uh use of potential use of spark funds I [49:44] thought was pretty creative and then to pick up those as me as commissioner agu said those [49:50] additional three units that we're going to be getting and some of them larger in nature in perpetuity is something worth [49:57] seriously thinking about under either scenario so what I what I hear you uh in [50:02] your presentation suggesting is that you're probably leaning towards scenario [50:08] number two you didn't really tell us but the data kind of directs you towards scenario number two is that a fair [50:15] assumtion um I as staff um am seeking a recommen or I recommend scenario number [50:21] two yes okay okay and did our financial advisers [50:27] reinforce that I think we are in alignment on that for the [50:32] longterm um benefit to the city okay me [50:38] commissioner rer has a question actually com it's more of a comment um I just want to [50:44] underscore a third of this amount is $1.6 million that could go to our [50:49] general fund and I just want to say that um and [50:54] what could that fund we know what got cut on Tuesday so um yes you know there [51:01] is a responsibility to help with the housing crisis and it is a housing [51:06] crisis but at the same time there's a responsibility to make sure our fundamental services are there um our [51:15] basic infrastructure is maintained all of that so um I I really scenario three [51:23] where it could be a commercial building doesn't bother me that much but seeing [51:31] nearly $5 million of spark funds going toward this I do have concerns about [51:36] that and it is all about balance thank [51:46] you m sure's other I think we're in the comment phase I'll add some comments yes um [51:54] thank you I I particularly love that the additional units here would be larger [52:02] units I think that that's so important it means that potentially a family could come into this community and and live [52:07] there um and I I appreciate commissioner risser's comments as well because that's how I always think about these equations [52:14] right like what else could we do with this money um when I think about whether [52:20] we look at it from the analysis of the additional amount given that we've already approved um some spark funds for [52:25] this use case case understanding yes we'd have to go through a a more rigorous process to leverage that or as [52:32] commissioner rer mentioned the 1.6 million right so kind of using that analysis of if we gave back these spark [52:40] funds and the city V din got $1.6 million to do something with that money [52:47] um I think about I think that that's a very fair comparison of what else could we do with this [52:53] money we would be getting then in that equation 15 units of affordable housing [53:00] in perpetuity and we have said that as a city it is a priority for us to look [53:06] into increasing the affordable attainable units that we have within our [53:12] community and I can't think of any other way that we could get 15 units using [53:18] that same kind of analysis and equation for $1.6 million if it did come back to [53:23] the community and so because have stated that that's a priority because we have [53:29] manager hackinson in your role and because we've been looking for how are there opportunities to continue investing into this I know that we've [53:36] made a lot of progress but I think this is a really great opportunity to get those affordable units but also do so at [53:44] the larger side um having the two bedrooms I think is really key so I will [53:50] be supporting this I think that this is a is a nice opportunity and I can't think of a better way at this point to [53:56] use that funding applying that same equation and knowing that we have identified this as a priority so thank [54:03] you commissioner Jackson yes thank you Mr chair [54:09] so I'm in favor of this um and but my thoughts keep going to that hole in the [54:16] ground and it was a rundown building with graffiti and flooding and a broken [54:23] parking lot and now it's a hole in the ground and and you know the alternative of turning that into a parking lot until [54:30] at some point in time somebody comes forward to figure out how to develop this and we go through the process over [54:36] again um it it's a lot of risk this eliminates a lot of risk and [54:46] um that's where my thoughts are um and I I [54:51] think this is a creative use and I I didn't get a chance to thank you for the work you've put into this um I I really appreciate that and the the entire [54:59] presentation actually was extremely helpful um but I just that's where my [55:05] thoughts are is the risk of hypothetical 3 is really high and I want to get rid [55:10] of the hole in the ground um France Avenue deserves to be developed and it's [55:16] an important real estate in our town and I don't want it to be a parking lot [55:21] until some point in time maybe even a bigger project has to be built to make [55:26] this all work um so I I want to mitigate risk and thank you again for um Coming [55:33] forward with this I think um every project we analyze [55:41] as a potential addition to the city of Edina that adds more density and more capacity from a housing standpoint [55:48] involves an analysis of the impact uh on our infrastructure uh on [55:54] our services and uh as we listen to whether it's you or uh manager neindorf talk [56:02] about the uh the I'll call I won't call it Dom Minimus but the the minority [56:09] situations uh about 10% of the time where we using tax increment financing [56:14] to achieve a public objective uh that's all part of the analysis we just talked about that [56:21] relative to the Macy's site uh the first call that manager newor makes is to our [56:27] Public Safety people and other people and our internal staff to find out how [56:33] is this project going to affect um the operations of the city and and [56:39] the stresses on the city that we might have and so that's an important consideration I think um this is also a [56:46] moment for me where it's a it's kind of well okay you're going to have an affordable housing policy you're going to mandate certain things you think this [56:53] is an important public objective this is kind of a put your money where your mouth is [56:58] moment uh and and though there are other stresses that we have in our town or [57:04] other challenges that we have around budgeting and uh forecasting and looking [57:09] at um how we going to run our town in the future and achieve the kind of Service delivery that we want impr make [57:15] the Capital Improvements that we want to make take care of what we own together uh that's an analysis we're going to [57:21] probably undertake as we talked about at our city council meeting on Tuesday night for the next year [57:27] and so where we have an opportunity to use uh spark [57:32] funds to accomplish some of the goals that we have said we want to accomplish uh and not use Tiff funds to [57:40] do some of the things that we said were indeed important uh in our community and that's why we have this policy then this [57:46] is this is one of those moments where we get to step up we're going to step up or [57:51] not um so I think uh I joined the majority of my colleagues and saying I [57:57] support this as well I think it's something that that we need to do and it's had a thorough vetting and Analysis [58:03] what creates a lot of comfort for me is not only your analysis but the analysis of the I would say the First Rate team [58:09] that we use as advisers from both dorsy Mr lingren and Mr an Hut from Ellers I [58:15] mean you can't have a better Duo to help you analyze these projects to make sure it fits and aligns with this what the [58:22] city wants to accomplish so I'm in favor of this as well and I and I would favor scenario number two and be consistent [58:29] with what you're thinking about so I don't know member you have [58:34] any additional comments you'd like to make everybody else has had a chance to make theirs I don't know if you had a chance to finish your [58:40] thoughts um I I do I mean we need to figure out how to [58:46] fund our infrastructure and how to fund our Civic responsibilities our fire our [58:53] police and um when we put money toward projects that are Tiff [59:00] finan we are cutting off flow of Revenue into the general fund and that's a [59:06] problem and it's I think something that's cont contributing to where we are [59:13] right now and um you know it's it's troubling to think about well okay so [59:21] where is the money going to come from for the things that we need and yes um we're getting affordable housing we're [59:27] getting more market rate um and and we can be the city that really provides and [59:35] it it would be nice to have those numbers beyond what the mech Council advised us to build for market rate and [59:41] I know we've got vacancies there's been articles in the Star Tribune about the vacancy rate for um market rate being [59:48] higher in the western suburbs we are one of those suburbs um so all of these are factoring in and [59:56] we can hear you know dialogue about how investment in building more market rate [1:00:02] is harder now because people can take their money elsewhere while the stock market is taking quite a run this week [1:00:10] um and so you know those things always change but you know we need to have [1:00:18] decent Park facilities um especially in neighborhoods where we have already [1:00:24] added affordable housing um we need to fund our firefighters so [1:00:30] that they are not doing um shifts that are mandatory shifts that maybe they [1:00:36] can't staff enough of their engines when there's more than one crisis going on um [1:00:42] all of those things so thank you for asking if I had something more to say um and I I think that's it and um so thank [1:00:54] you thank you I just I just wanted to add um a little bit to that because [1:01:01] I I agree in the sense that we full-heartedly need to support all of [1:01:07] our resources right we need to invest into the new fire station we need to invest into public safety but I [1:01:14] completely disagree with the statement that this is taking money away from that um we continue to invest at the same [1:01:21] level um if there's nothing else on this site where're like there is no tax [1:01:26] revenue and so I I just don't don't want the message to be that we are choosing [1:01:32] to build this in exchange for investment into our Public Services because that's not the [1:01:39] reality I think that's a um re I would I want to push back against that because I [1:01:46] think in a way we're entering into an area with perspective and it's we could [1:01:53] take this money it could go to the general fund and yes you know you look at um Tiff and what it finances and [1:02:01] ultimately you're supposed to end up with more revenues flowing into the general fund but there's this vast [1:02:06] period of time where that doesn't happen and even when as we know here in enina you desertify a tiff District that's no [1:02:12] guarantee the money is going to start flowing back to the general fund so I think um you know in hypotheticals what [1:02:18] this would be versus a commercial site well again back to the idea of total cost we don't bring in total cost and so [1:02:26] I think I think there's room for a little nuance and not necessarily a binary right or wrong in this situation [1:02:33] um thank you commissioner Jackson we are going to have an entire [1:02:39] year in 2025 of talking about the budget and I think that's the appropriate time to have that conversation this is about [1:02:46] whether we want this development to move forward and um I'm in favor of that and we'll have the discussion I think we're [1:02:52] all on you know the edge of our seat uh um with discomfort on the budget but [1:02:58] that's we've got a whole year to talk about that thank you the other comment I would have is that I think as we work on these various [1:03:05] issues that are Financial related over the next year we're going to find a way to quantify the net benefit of the [1:03:12] increased density in our community so if you think about no more [1:03:18] growth and and and putting the burden on people that are already here to take [1:03:24] care of what we own together and and expand and do the things we want to do from a capital Improvement standpoint the burden would be even higher than if [1:03:31] we were adding density we need to find a way to define that but there is a [1:03:37] there's a net benefit in density and and we've seen presentations [1:03:42] on that over the years and we can we can we can drill down on that significantly I think and show that the strategies [1:03:50] we're employing around growth have a significant benefit to our community [1:03:56] so all right um so you've got here a motion that's [1:04:03] recommended that doesn't Define the scenario is that purposeful you wanted us to have a conversation about [1:04:10] that um I shall approve Redevelopment [1:04:15] agreement for 7200 France Apartments reflecting terms and conditions of 15 units affordable for perpetuity and [1:04:22] First Amendment to the 72725 Redevelopment agreement that that gives you a scenario two that's scenario two [1:04:29] yeah okay that's what I thought just want to make sure all right is there a motion to approve Redevelopment the [1:04:35] Redevelopment agreement for 7200 France Avenue Apartments reflecting the terms and conditions of 15 units being an [1:04:42] amendment to that agreement 15 units uh which creates 10% affordability in [1:04:48] perpetuity and uh by First Amendment to the 7200 7250 Redevelopment agreement so [1:04:54] moved second got a motion and a second to adopt the motion as stated which would amend the [1:05:01] uh provide a First Amendment to the Redevelopment agreement at 7200 7250 to provide for um terms and conditions [1:05:09] additional terms and conditions for achieving 15 units of affordability uh in those units for perpetuity that's 10% [1:05:16] of the units uh any further discussion all those in favor of adoption of the motion say I I I opposed name carried [1:05:25] motion carries U the amendment to the Redevelopment agreement is approved [1:05:31] thank you for everybody that participated in this conversation to achieve this level of affordability and [1:05:36] this level of uh uh increased uh number of homes for [1:05:42] people in our community as well and uh now we've got the next [1:05:48] matter uh is one that it's a more of a I think a u informational sort of item [1:05:56] uh an update as opposed to an action item no action being required at this [1:06:01] point in time uh but I think important update for all of us on this uh issue around the uh [1:06:10] loan agreement with the ad chamber Commerce so and we have in even in this uh difficult weather this morning a lot [1:06:17] of folks rolling in to have the [1:06:23] conversation and we got uh manager new andorf or economic development manager is going to lead the conversation on [1:06:29] this yeah yes good morning thank you um I'll provide an overview this morning and then turn it over to our guests uh [1:06:36] from the Chamber of Commerce um as you mentioned uh this morning this is an update only uh we wanted to get a [1:06:43] conversation started so we're not seeking any action today but wanted to prep you that in the near future we will [1:06:48] be seeking action uh we're hoping to get some guidance and direction from you um [1:06:54] as the chamber puts some thoughts together in the new year so in the packet there's a staff [1:06:59] report there's not a big formal presentation or anything um but just as background a reminder that in [1:07:06] 2022 uh using spark funds we issued a construction loan to the Chamber of [1:07:11] Commerce with the intention of launching a new business accelerator program something that had been talked about in [1:07:17] a Dina for several years uh it seemed like the right time to do it as we came out of the pandemic and funds were [1:07:22] available uh we granted uh or we authorized up to $800,000 in loan [1:07:28] proceeds to be repaid uh over a seven-year period um uh the construction [1:07:34] did go did go forward uh the lab and the facility was built and opened in November of [1:07:41] 2023 um and over the last uh two years uh four cohorts of participants [1:07:47] successfully completed the program uh the full buildout actually came in under budget it's always nice to see that um [1:07:54] so uh we initially uh had a construction loan of just approximately 651 th000 so [1:08:02] we came in under that maximum of 800 um and part of that loan was to repay it or [1:08:08] it was it was structured mostly to be repaid but portions of it are forgivable when specific Milestones are [1:08:15] met so after the loan was issued the the Chamber of Commerce uh did make two payments in 2024 and they also did did [1:08:22] achieve that first mil Milestone um to forgive a portion of it so as we stand [1:08:27] here this morning uh there's still a balance of approximately $469,000 on that [1:08:34] loan um uh the the lab program um I mentioned there there are four [1:08:41] successful cohorts that have been finished with that program uh but unfortunately the program is not [1:08:46] yielding the revenue at either the pace or the level that was first projected [1:08:52] and that is potentially a problem that we wanted to bring uh to the surface here [1:08:57] today in order to help address that that um that reality uh the Chamber of [1:09:04] Commerce board decided to spin off the lab as an independent entity uh earlier [1:09:09] this year with the intention um that by separating physically or not physically but legally from the from the chamber [1:09:17] that they'd be able to attract more investment Capital so that's part of their part of their uh restructuring and [1:09:22] part of their plan um uh unfortunately that change U that [1:09:28] separation does remove the the accelerator program the lab from any [1:09:34] legal oversight by the chamber or from this body the HRA um and part of the loan agreement [1:09:41] was based on the fact that the HRA would have some level of of involvement although minor to make sure that the lab [1:09:49] um did what we thought it would what what we thought it would do and more importantly did did it in a Dina um uh [1:09:58] so potentially with that change um although done for good reasons it does result in two violations of our loan [1:10:05] agreement uh and potentially a third um so wanted to raise that to your [1:10:11] attention um as we consider um these these potential violations um the loan agreement does [1:10:18] identify what happens in the event of a default um first we'd have to recognize these as a default and take action to do [1:10:26] that and there are several remedies in the contract that we could take um we're [1:10:32] at a point where I'm not recommending we call this a a violation and a default on the on the contract the Chamber of [1:10:38] Commerce has every intention to repay the loan they've made that abundantly clear to me and they're here this [1:10:43] morning to make that very clear to you but I think we have to get uh we think we need to have a Frank conversation [1:10:50] about the future of the lab uh because some of the terms and assumptions that we had in 2022 when we all did this for [1:10:57] the first time just haven't proven true uh or they haven't proven out um so in [1:11:05] the near future the chamber is expected to do some restructuring to the lab and [1:11:10] to their own organization in order to to have two levels of success as a chamber [1:11:16] of commerce to do what they do and as a Innovation lab to help more businesses [1:11:22] more entrepreneurs to do what they do even better and more prosperously here in Adina um so in the near future the [1:11:29] chamber does intend uh to present a full proposal they have some my general ideas [1:11:34] today um but in today's meeting we're hoping to get your guidance some of your initial [1:11:40] thoughts as they put their proposal together uh we'll come back later or [1:11:45] come back in the new year uh with a recommended Amendment or modification to that loan agreement um and with that [1:11:53] I'll turn it over to the crew from from the chamber ber uh Shelly lerg is here this morning uh president of the chamber [1:11:59] Annette wenow the CEO of the of the big innovation lab uh and then a few members [1:12:05] of the Chamber of commerce's board uh Paul Moody Mark jesson and Heidi Stinson are here this morning so I'll turn it [1:12:11] over to to uh to Shelly and I'll be available for questions but they can be the stars of the show this morning thank [1:12:18] you Mr nindorf morning Miss lber thank you good morning everyone um interesting morning [1:12:26] out there getting here um yeah we're so we're here this morning um and you all did receive a formal letter from me on [1:12:33] December 10th um what we are asking today is a consideration of the of a [1:12:38] deferment of the January payment um I have met with all of the members of the [1:12:45] council um Mr huband uh serves on our board of directors um as does manager [1:12:51] Neil and so right now what we are asking you to consider is a deferment of that [1:12:57] January payment in order to give us a Runway to build some funds for the chamber to meaningfully um contribute to [1:13:05] um a hopefully differently amortised payment in July um so first what I would [1:13:13] like to do is have Annette and two of her participants from the lab come up [1:13:19] and not only talk about sort of where the lab is currently um but also so so [1:13:25] that you can hear the experiences of some of the entrepreneurs that have completed the the course and they can [1:13:31] tell you how it has impacted their businesses because we do believe that this is still an amazing Community [1:13:37] amenity that can not only help businesses in ad um but other businesses [1:13:43] in the Twin Cities region which I think we feel as an organization it's important that we're serving the whole [1:13:49] Twin Cities area um we certainly want businesses from Adina to uh participate [1:13:56] in the lab but um Annette has some new Partnerships with neighboring um municipalities as well that we think [1:14:02] will will help bring the lab into the future so I'm going to have Annette and her cohort members come up we have Logan [1:14:08] Hershey from um RBC Wealth Management and Brian Ruck who is the owner of [1:14:13] grovin Confections thank you Miss wiberg good [1:14:21] morning good morning um I have a cough so I'm not going to talk a a lot because if I C if I talk a lot I will cough more [1:14:28] so I'm going to just do a brief introduction and have both of my guys talk so the big innovation lab when we [1:14:34] structured it as with most new businesses we thought one way would work and then we discovered that there are [1:14:41] some other avenues that we need to be looking at and that the revenue streams that we thought would come in have [1:14:47] changed so it's still a very viable business it is still um alive and doing [1:14:53] its work it's just doing it in maybe a different way than what we had originally thought so um mayor hubland [1:15:00] has been very gracious in introducing me to the city of Bloomington I've met with the city of Golden Valley and I've got [1:15:06] other municipalities that would like to tap into what we're doing which is another income source for us um but [1:15:13] really the most important thing is that it's a build a business accelerator for second stage businesses not for startups [1:15:19] there's lots of great programs out there that are free for startups we really want to help the second stage business [1:15:25] whether they've been in business for 3 years or 30 years to help figure out what their next move is how can they be [1:15:31] successful in the future what does that look like and what's their plan to move forward so with me today um we'll start [1:15:38] with Brian Brian bought grovelin Confections which many of you know and [1:15:43] so he can talk about his experience with the lab thank you was wer hour good morning [1:15:50] morning um pleasure to be here thank you very much for having us um again my name is Brian I'm the owner of Groveland [1:15:56] Confections um the business has been around for about 20 years uh my wife and I purchased the business last year it's [1:16:02] currently base in minaka but I myself I'm a Edina resident um I got connected [1:16:08] through um to a D um to net through the Adina chamber and um basically was [1:16:16] looking for an Avenue to be able to grow my business um I have a career in Hospitality uh spending 20 years um but [1:16:24] not much experience in running an independent business um so I was in a very unique situation where I knew what [1:16:30] I need to do but I didn't have the assets or the noow or network to build that um so being a part of the lab has [1:16:37] been fundamental in my growth um we've seen about a 700% growth in our wholesale business that's allowed us to [1:16:43] enter into markets like Kowalsky um here in Adina um and several other locations [1:16:48] we've been able to expand that um we are currently uh expanding our business aggressively as well and hope to [1:16:55] um for very selfish reasons help to bring it closer to home um to reduce a commute so in future terms that's [1:17:02] something that I look forward to contributing to Dina's tax uh taxation here um but the lab has been a great [1:17:08] outlet for me to be able to work with other individuals outside of my network outside of um a business group that I [1:17:16] have developed on my own with other peers to allow me to grow that in other ways that provide longlasting knowledge [1:17:23] um that I didn't have right and also resources as well and that has been fundamental in helping me [1:17:30] make connections get into places like Kowalsky um you know grow the business continuously it has been a great Avenue [1:17:36] for us to be able to continue to grow as a business but also assist each other as cohorts um not just within independent [1:17:44] units but as collective um uh between the four groups so far um it's been been [1:17:49] a great collaboration and that's very invested in our success and growth um and we' we're very from our end very [1:17:56] thankful for what she's been able to contribute from uh for for our business um so I'm not sure if that was the [1:18:03] extent of what you need I'm I could keep talking but I will hand the the mic over [1:18:09] to Logan thank you br thank you well thank you everyone um as Anette had said my name is Logan Hershey uh I work at [1:18:15] RBC Wealth Management and run an advisory practice there uh when I first met Annette it was at a chamber event [1:18:22] and it was the infancy of the lab and really the idea of the lab um and from [1:18:28] that moment I knew the lab was going to be something special I wanted to be a part of it just didn't know when that [1:18:34] would happen but um a little bit background of me I started as a CPA at Deo and touche uh I like to say I'm a [1:18:41] recovering CPA now but um joined an advisory practice with my father-in-law here and our office isn't just just in [1:18:48] Centennial Lakes but the lab really helped me you know as I was growing my business bringing on new clients excuse [1:18:56] me um you know you don't know where to start and if anyone knows financial [1:19:02] advisors it's a very long sales process uh it's a lot of relationship building [1:19:07] and it takes some time and my focus really in the lab was how do I best [1:19:13] spend my time to build my business um and as a young entrepreneur you're [1:19:19] getting pulled in a million different directions you're told to say yes to everything and the lab really helped me [1:19:25] focus in on what's most important for me what's most important for my for my [1:19:30] business um and inet has a way of just bringing in really great people and [1:19:36] collaborating with those people getting their perspectives whether they were in a similar industry or something [1:19:43] completely different was was really helpful and the other thing I think that is special about the program once you go [1:19:51] through the co cohort you're part of this community where there's continued events where there's continued [1:19:58] collaboration it's not just a one-time thing so um yeah being part of the lab [1:20:04] was a very special experience for me and I hope to see it continue and I I can't wait to see what's in store for the lab [1:20:11] in the future so thank you thank you do you have any questions that you'd [1:20:18] like to ask I think you could elaborate a little bit on on some of the potential new uh Revenue stream that we've been [1:20:25] talking about with like the city of Bloomington and the City of Golden Valley what are the what are the [1:20:31] conversations about with those cities yeah so the city of Bloomington is already in process I have a contract [1:20:38] with them and I'm doing some training with them and then some individual business Consulting to help them get [1:20:45] their businesses ready because they would like to have their some of their businesses go through the big lab so [1:20:50] getting them ready to come and be part of the big innovation lab as part of what their goal is they um in [1:20:57] Bloomington they developed a hatch program and there are some huge holes in [1:21:02] where they started and what they've done and where they want to go with that program so they've engaged with me to [1:21:08] come in and help with those hatch participants and the winners of that hatch competition um to help them make [1:21:14] sure that they're successful they um not that I want to talk about their program too much but they offered $100,000 for [1:21:21] somebody who won the hatch program and as we all know if you're building a brick and mortar $100,000 is a great [1:21:27] gift but it doesn't go very far so part of what I'm going to be doing is helping them to make sure that they're [1:21:32] maximizing their dollars um the city of Golden Valley is a different thing they're trying to revitalize their [1:21:38] business community and they don't have really a plan in place so the mayor [1:21:46] of Golden Valley and the city manager have engag conversations with me which we will be having another conversation [1:21:51] the beginning of January to help them build out their business community and do it in a meaningful way they have a lot of [1:21:58] businesses in Golden Valley that have been around for a long time that are stuck that don't know what to do and [1:22:04] that's where we can come in and help them and that's a model you think you can extend other communities as well [1:22:11] absolutely yes so we're looking at other revenue streams but always coming back [1:22:17] to our core belief in education for entrepreneurs that are in their second stage other Commissioners may have uh [1:22:24] questions comments I know you've met with many of them commissioner Jackson um yes this is a question more [1:22:30] for Miss lerg um so first of all before you guys go away I'm so pleased that we [1:22:35] have the Innovation lab here um it's the the gap between a startup and a fully [1:22:41] established business is a big one and this is a big need in in every business Community we are so lucky that we have [1:22:48] you here in Edina and I'm I'm just very grateful for the work that you do not [1:22:53] only for filling Gap but also for the fellowship of Business Leaders I've heard many times it's a very lonely job [1:23:01] and to have peers who you can go to to ask questions is phenomenal and and so [1:23:07] I'm I'm very grateful for the work that you do and grateful for the businesses that have gone through the [1:23:12] cohorts um so I don't know if this is what you're asking for today but I [1:23:18] believe with the reorganization the terms of the loan actually go with the Innovation lab and we're talking more [1:23:25] about putting them towards the chamber is that correct miss lerg that is correct so um one thing to note is that [1:23:32] when our board allowed the separation of the lab to become its own bcorporation [1:23:38] um we did specify that the lab would remain in AA until the loan is paid off [1:23:44] but one of the other specifications was that the debt would not follow the lab because that would be detrimental to [1:23:50] their financial success in the future and the agreement that this um that the [1:23:56] government made was with the Chamber of Commerce so the Chamber of Commerce remains responsible for the the debt in [1:24:02] the separation agreement okay good so and then the Innovation lab would be a source of Revenue to you to help pay off [1:24:09] this loan is that correct when they are at a point where they can contribute we will create a lease and they will pay [1:24:16] rent and that will be the first priority um so I would say in the longer term yes [1:24:22] the hope would be that they would contribute to the the debt but in the shorter term um we just want them to be [1:24:29] able to um to continue serving the the business community and the and the [1:24:34] region and so we need a different plan for repayment and that would be um like [1:24:40] I mentioned the request today is really to defer the January payment so that we have a path so that we can create a path [1:24:48] to make more affordable payments and until the lab is in a position to [1:24:54] meaning fully contribute to that explor and the Chamber of Commerce would be [1:25:00] would be making that payment okay so I want to be perfectly clear I'm in favor [1:25:05] of helping this to work yeah um and so I would be in favor of restructuring the [1:25:10] loan deferring the um January payment to make that happen I would also like this [1:25:16] to be a vehicle for keeping the Innovation lab here which is your plan and I just want to en endorse that um [1:25:23] one thing that I actually have a request and in the election last year there was a lot of talk about city council having [1:25:30] office hours yeah we don't have offices yeah so as we look about renegotiating [1:25:36] this and everything I would like one of the elements to be that we would be able to use part of the space to meet with [1:25:43] the public um as a city council because we we literally don't have offices even [1:25:48] a locker here at City Hall um so we need a pce that maybe isn't an open public [1:25:54] coffee shop sometimes to have meetings and and I'd like that to be a factor in the negotiations please yeah absolutely [1:26:00] and we did discuss that and um we're our board and I am very in favor um and [1:26:05] actually the city is currently using the space on a regular basis with its leadership teams um we've hosted [1:26:11] Jennifer's communication team we've hosted the leadership team we've hosted a a human resources team um and and [1:26:18] welcome the opportunity to continue to to do that so that it is truly a community space [1:26:24] I guess the thing that's important to me is to stress that this is a unique partnership that doesn't exist in other [1:26:30] communities and I do think that we need to find a path for it to be successful [1:26:35] um and that includes the financial success of all of these entities certainly The Innovation lab as a [1:26:41] consideration but also the Chamber of Commerce and explor and their revenue streams need to also be taken into [1:26:47] consideration and so what we intend to come back and present to you is a [1:26:53] modified budget where we are making shifts in our activities and that will [1:26:59] include um continuing to elevate explore Adina as a strong brand in the marketing [1:27:05] arm of the city um that will continue to elevate tourism businesses regionally [1:27:12] with marketing campaigns in the five state area but then also connecting those tourism campaigns to hyper local [1:27:18] messages that will continue to elevate our business community and I think that will continue to really connect instead [1:27:25] of um having the chamber and Visitor Bureau have these like separate missions [1:27:31] to really have them more intertwined so thank you pleasure we I [1:27:37] personally really value the the partnership between the chamber all your entities and the city so thank you so [1:27:43] much same thank you we appreciate it as well commissioner rer thank you and it's [1:27:51] been a week so my head is kind of spinning and I'm thinking about the chamber which is a [1:27:58] nonprofit explor Dino which was created in 2014 by the city of Edina with a [1:28:04] principal purpose to you know promote tourism and businesses in 9 I may be [1:28:10] getting that wrong um that is accurate is it okay yes and then we have the Innovation lab which is a [1:28:20] for-profit and and so right there um um and today I I don't think I'm going to [1:28:26] walk out of here having a really good understanding of the ask and the implications um but if the chamber and [1:28:35] Explorer Edina are taking over the loan that was made to the Innovation lab I [1:28:43] just want to make sure we're not doing something that we should not be doing and I know um spark funds aren't [1:28:50] supposed to go to government projects and here where I mean it's layer upon [1:28:55] layer so what is explor din it was created by the city it is funded by [1:29:01] lodging taxes correct and so I'm not an attorney my head is spinning um and I [1:29:07] just want to know that what's before us is totally vetted doesn't violate bylaws [1:29:13] doesn't violate anything that has to do with spark you know because I know you can't give it to a government entity but [1:29:21] if a government entity is going to assume the loan payments what do I do with [1:29:27] that well we are not a government entity we are an independent nonprofit but if [1:29:32] what is explor explor is set up as part of the Adina Chamber of Commerce it is [1:29:38] set up so initially in its Inception it had its own board of directors and was set up as a separate 501 [1:29:44] C6 um and so they were basically running two 501 c6s you know out of the Chamber [1:29:50] of Commerce um I don't recall in what year here because I was not working on the chamber side yet but they um [1:29:58] essentially made a decision to um create one board of directors that would so we [1:30:04] Blended the explor dino board and the Chamber of Commerce board so that it is 1501 C6 and so basically explor Dina is [1:30:13] currently running as a program of the Chamber of Commerce that was so helpful thank you [1:30:20] yeah you're my pleasure and if I could just clarify one thing the loan is with [1:30:25] the Diana Chamber of Commerce not with the Innovation lab the loan is with the chamber so that's been misstated a few [1:30:30] times the loan today is with the Adina Chamber of Commerce it's not that's not a change [1:30:37] That's How It Was Written okay but explore Adina is going to help pay back [1:30:43] the loan correct okay we sure and it's my [1:30:49] understanding The Innovation lab is a 501c3 as it's being spun off is that correct it is a B Corporation B [1:30:55] Corporation and that means that um a bcorporation essentially is a [1:31:00] corporation that takes into account um Community well-being in addition to [1:31:06] fiscal reasons so it does not operate purely as a for-profit but it is not a [1:31:11] 501c3 and I'm happy to have Annette make more comments on [1:31:19] that we do have as so it is a bcorporation but we do have another arm which is a [1:31:26] 501c3 so you're you're able to take uh receive Foundation grants exactly okay [1:31:32] yes so we have both okay terrific thank you commissioner rer and you you do have [1:31:39] stockholders you do have shares of stock the Chamber of Commerce remains a 10% shareholder in The Innovation lab [1:31:46] yes but the Innovation lab does have stockholders okay and then in the bylaws [1:31:55] for the explor Dina it specifically says we can't [1:32:00] have um shareholders in the um organization [1:32:05] that's set up and I I get that this is distinct but is there any issue with us [1:32:10] financing an entity that has shareholders we are just a [1:32:17] renter The Innovation lab will be renting from the chamber the [1:32:22] chamber so it'd be like renting it to anyone we'll have an agreement we'll pay [1:32:28] rent which will help pay the loan [1:32:36] you I also just want to clarify the 501c3 status the 501c3 is actually was [1:32:44] initially created by the Chamber of Commerce for completely other reasons before the Innovation lab was created as [1:32:51] part of the separation agreement we are allowing the 501c3 to be transferred to the Innovation lab if the chamber wants [1:32:57] its own 501c3 in the future we will create another one um one of the challenges that Annette endured with [1:33:05] fundraising um from a business perspective the lab was not set up purely to financially exist on cohort [1:33:12] members paying a fee to participate in the education it was set up to also receive large donations from private [1:33:19] donors from family foundations from business foundations and one of the hiccups that we learned about was that [1:33:27] many of these foundations were um were not wanting to make donations um [1:33:35] due to it being part of a chamber of commerce Chambers um are sometimes seen [1:33:40] or regarded as advocacy organizations and can sometimes be um mixed in local [1:33:47] politics that's really um not as relevant anymore in today's Chamber of [1:33:52] Commerce um dealing that's more the the role of the state the Minnesota Chamber of Commerce to do political advocacy at [1:33:59] the legislative level but historically that is the reputation that Chambers have and so that was a stumbling block [1:34:06] for the lab to receive um money that it needed to um be successful so I wanted [1:34:13] to make that clarification as well because I don't think that was [1:34:18] mentioned good yes commissioner agno thank you I have a question for manager [1:34:24] nondorf um if you could I know we've talked about this in the past um but [1:34:29] just could use a reminder when we have money repaid from loans through spark [1:34:39] what are we able to use that repaid money [1:34:47] for we've learned a lot since we created the spark program initially we had hoped that when the funds were rep paid we [1:34:54] could use it as a revolving Loan Fund and as we learned more about the the program and as the state auditor's [1:34:59] office got involved and actually wrote rules um on the state level we learned that that is pretty unlikely to be [1:35:06] possible um I don't know if we can say impossible but pretty unlikely so when [1:35:11] the loans are repaid essentially um and I'll I'll ask Mr an Hut to correct me if [1:35:17] I'm wrong uh uh essentially when they're repaid they would be eventually DET [1:35:22] determined to be access Tiff monies and then redistributed so as commissioner rer had mentioned this morning a portion [1:35:29] goes back to the city a portion goes to the county a portion goes to the schools but then the state takes it from the [1:35:35] school um uh but that would be years in the [1:35:41] future so what happens this is a very tactical question here in the short term [1:35:47] you know if you look at the report the 41,000 every 6 months that's being paid back what happens to that money [1:35:54] immediately and in the short term uh at this point when the monies are repaid they're redeposited back into [1:36:02] that spark program so technically they could be available for the city to use and and to earmark or or pledge up until [1:36:09] the deadline which is coming up fast in about a year so right now they they are [1:36:15] they could be recycled but there's not a lot of money in there right now from the payments okay so and I know that we're [1:36:23] not being asked to make that decision tonight but this morning oh my gosh um [1:36:28] but the the impact is if we were to defer [1:36:36] the January payment and kind of lump that into subsequent payments um there's [1:36:42] an opportunity in the short term in the calendar year of 2025 um that anywhere from 41,000 to the [1:36:51] difference that might not get added to that next um 2025 payment would not be [1:36:58] eligible or we wouldn't be able to reuse it but anything that happens from a payment perspective after [1:37:05] 2025 um that's maybe if you could speak to that little Gap it might come back for a little bit and then at some point [1:37:11] in time it gets redistributed to the three the state or the county excuse me [1:37:17] the school district and um Idina but does it just kind of sit there until [1:37:23] it's all all um recouped what happens in that medium term so the the medium term [1:37:29] do you mean after year in 2025 yes uh I [1:37:35] don't know I wonder if Mr anut knows we this this is a new program in the state so I'm not sure how the detailed [1:37:42] mechanics work but Nick might excuse [1:37:49] me uh actually so any payment that is received after the deadline [1:37:54] would go into the next fiscal year um there's actually um written in the statute that [1:38:01] any EXs Tiff uh the authority which would be the HRA in this instance has [1:38:06] nine months to turn that money back to the county for redistribution so any [1:38:13] loan payment that would be received in 26 you would have until September of [1:38:19] 27 to return those funds for redistribution and then you would continue on that annual cycle as any [1:38:26] kind of repayment is made that is exactly what I was looking for thank you very much the only question I had thank [1:38:33] you CA anything else from anyone um question for you Mr nindorf uh or maybe [1:38:39] for Miss lber too um you mentioned there was a $469,000 balance on the spark loan to [1:38:47] the chamber uh and we're going to talk about deferment of the potenti poal January [1:38:54] payment that's due but there are also elements of the loan that were uh [1:38:59] forgivable elements based on meeting certain criteria in that [1:39:05] $469,000 balance are there elements of that that are forgivable elements that [1:39:11] would further reduce the outstanding balance sure assuming assuming these Milestones are met sure I yes there's [1:39:18] still one more so uh as a contract stands today they they'd still be eligible to to be forgiven up to [1:39:26] $100,000 so um they would have to deliver those additional programs meet [1:39:32] those Milestones um but yeah uh of the $469,000 balance [1:39:38] 369,000 th000 of that definitely has to be repaid uh and then the 100,000 would [1:39:44] be forgiven at some point and you you'll be back in January with some ideas on [1:39:50] restructuring uh I'm happy to work with it chamber I don't know their schedule or anything of that sort that is the [1:39:57] intention yes but do we need to make a decision on deferment of the January [1:40:03] payment today I was um in conversations with our finance director the current terms of [1:40:10] the loan does allow for a late payment um there's a little fee attached to it [1:40:17] um uh so it really depends on the pace of the of the restructuring and the and [1:40:23] the referrals um but certainly I I think your verbal acknowledgement of a [1:40:30] deferment without I mean if if we wanted to we could call the [1:40:35] loan and I I that's not my recommendation so it might be helpful to to have the board recognize [1:40:42] that that temporary deferment is acceptable without considering that a default might be helpful to have that on [1:40:49] the record yeah well it was the reason I'm concerned is it wasn't noticed up as an action item and this is [1:40:58] a an agenda that's disseminated to the public at large in addition to being uh [1:41:04] published for our benefit uh so the notion of a [1:41:10] um of a um I guess a verbal sort of uh [1:41:18] recognition of a deferment might be in order is that what you're saying if we get a consent out of the H maybe Mr [1:41:25] lingren I saw him arise and then sit back down [1:41:32] again not sure what they're asking for Mr chair I'm not sure I have a lot [1:41:40] to offer I was involved in the original loan but in my understanding is the loan payment just wouldn't be made it would [1:41:46] still be owing and it would be paid at some future point in time so I'm not sure it's actually a formal deferral [1:41:54] and if it is an AAL deferral then no action would be required if that's [1:41:59] consistent with what you're thinking and I'm kind of just jumping in here so I apologize for that I do believe that's [1:42:04] consistent but Our intention as a board is to come back to you in a month with [1:42:09] an official request for a restructuring in which we would amortise the loan over [1:42:16] a different repayment period that is more achievable for us as an organization and that would be a time [1:42:22] where we would be um requesting an an action and um a restructuring of the payment schedule [1:42:29] all right thank you for that that's yeah that's that's some guidance because um we were getting I think some indication [1:42:37] that um you wanted to hear something today about deferment of the January payment but it sounds like you'll be [1:42:43] back front of us with a formal proposal in January correct yeah this is a this is part A Part B is is a more formal [1:42:51] request um but I guess in the letter that I did submit I did um acknowledge [1:42:57] that the desire is to defer the January payment commissioner [1:43:02] rer and I would appreciate when we're being asked to look at that having as [1:43:08] much detail as we can about expenses and revenue and all of that and I did go [1:43:13] back and I looked at the November 2020 meeting when the loan was approved and [1:43:21] at the same meeting arpa funds were were approved and the statement given at the [1:43:27] time was those were going to be used in conjunction with the Adina public schools and so more information on and [1:43:34] it it seemed like spark and arpa were kind of working together um and so I [1:43:40] would like more information on how those arpa funds were used and I um that would [1:43:45] I would really appreciate that I know the Shark Tank program was already up and running and the Chamber was already [1:43:51] engaged in that program before correct um so just if that could be part of the [1:43:56] package thank you yeah no problem and we have submitted reports on the spending [1:44:02] of the arpa funds right very good thank you for being here this morning thank [1:44:09] you thank you for those presentations all right [1:44:15] um manager Neil did you want to give us a report out on 5146 Eden Avenue [1:44:21] actually uh Mr chair I'd like to defer our discussion on that given our discussion uh around our budget and our [1:44:27] immediate kind of fiscal future I think I'd like to talk to Mr nindorf more about that and come back and give you an [1:44:33] update on it uh at a future meeting all right very good uh any HRA member [1:44:38] comments commissioner comments commissioner Jackson since this [1:44:44] is the last meeting of the year um I have some thank yous to put out I want to thank you thank the people who re [1:44:52] repair streets in the summer and plow our streets in the winter the police and the firefighters who come to us when [1:44:59] we're in Peril to all the public servants who make this city a great place to live [1:45:04] work and play I want to thank the gifts of my fellow city council members who [1:45:09] contribute so much to our community bring so many talents and and uh perspectives and I want to thank all the [1:45:16] volunteers and the voters of a town and on Tuesday night we had Diane plunet [1:45:22] laam and Bob coine here and if there are two people who um personify the culture [1:45:28] of our city with their so much that they give back um was really inspiring to see them here and I know that there's so [1:45:35] many volunteers who spend their time their talent and their treasure um I don't think I've had a regular city [1:45:40] council meeting where we didn't get gifts from the public and that's extraordinary and so and uh I'm just I'm [1:45:47] so grateful to all the people who make this such a good city so those are thank you for that yeah well said on behalf of [1:45:53] yourself and the all the rest of us as well thank you uh anything else all right hope everybody has a wonderful [1:46:00] holiday season there's some interesting and wonderful uh days on the calendar [1:46:05] ahead of us and U is there a motion to adjourn so second commissioner agno [1:46:12] moves and commissioner Jackson seconds the adjournment of the HRA meeting this Thursday December 19 2024 any further [1:46:19] discussion all those in favor of adjournment say I I I closed [1:46:24] carried h meeting of December 19 2024 stands adjourned thank you [1:46:51] thank e