[0:00] well welcome this is the February 28th uh work session um we are now [0:08] getting started do I need to introduce the members or yeah we'll go around and do attendance okay you start uh yeah [0:17] sure Ryan day here in pres uh J stles acting uh chair for [0:23] tonight uh Mary witheld Quincy Smith L Miranda Carrie teag St leaz on [0:36] some all right so our one item uh agenda is just to kick off the [0:42] introduction of an ordinance that we've talked about amending well really throughout last [0:47] year regarding first floor ceiling height and building transparency on the ground level so back in [0:56] 2020 we the city adopted an ordinance that established and the ordinance came [1:03] from recommendations or part of the design experience guidelines so the [1:08] ordinance at that time added a 20ft first floor um ceiling height [1:15] requirement a building transparency at street level or anything facing the [1:20] public realm at 75% another part of that was the [1:25] building materials um requirement not really proposing any Chang is there but [1:30] maybe getting the wording so it's a little clearer um so I'd like to work on [1:36] that that ordinance also established setbacks in the Southdale District it's [1:41] that 50 foot setback on York and France and then 30 ft on the east west streets [1:47] that's working well no changes um proposed there so the ones to focus on [1:53] are going to be that first floor and the transparency [1:58] um so just so staff has put together a draft very [2:03] rough draft um so what we're looking for tonight is just initial thoughts [2:10] anything that you'd like us to go back and study there's not a lot of comparison of other cities I don't know [2:16] that we have regulations like this from other cities um we can always look into [2:21] that but these were unique standards that came from the the design guidelines [2:27] so first off just def find if so another question is do we want to even have the [2:34] first floor regulation um or do we want to just reduce it so [2:40] that's something to think about and then the transparency same thing do we still want to require that do we just want to [2:45] reduce it so the ordinance that that we've just drafted defines that floor to [2:51] floor first floor ceiling height because we really didn't have a definition before we thought and we put this [2:58] together working with the bu building official but we thought in addition to this we would [3:05] want some kind of a diagram that shows a picture of what that looks like that would be most helpful for staff [3:12] residents developers so we would we can add that in at a later time so the [3:18] ordinance itself it really so first it's just dealing with the planned office [3:24] district and we're suggesting reducing the transparency down to 50% % as [3:30] opposed to 75 we've also added kind of how we're [3:35] measuring it because that's not really defined in the code either um so another [3:40] piece to think about it's basically at ey level the purpose of it is so you can see in the building at I level um so [3:48] we've got that prepared and we've changed the wording there a little bit [3:53] on the building material and we're suggesting we take the first floor [4:00] requirement of 20 ft out of this zoning District we haven't had a all office building built in probably 20 years so [4:08] know how how applicable that is but um our recommendation is to take that out [4:14] you know part of this is coming from the the um the sustainability policy and [4:20] these tall ceilings with all that glass kind of goes against that so um another [4:26] reason for that and let's see then the the next is the planned commercial [4:32] District so again taking the 75% down to [4:38] 50% and we're suggesting reducing the first floor ceiling height from 20t to [4:44] 12 feet um we landed on 12 just thinking about some of the uses at 50th in France [4:52] existing and what we've seen you know we've seen anywhere [Music] [4:57] from 12 13 14 18 ft for those kind of uses so that's something to think [5:06] about and how you doing see then the next is the planned [5:13] industrial district we had did have the one industrial uh District proposal that was [5:21] the Minnesota made you remember the the addition there and they actually because they didn't have a lot of the building [5:28] that fa the street they were able to meet the code um but we're still [5:33] suggesting maybe a reduction in the 75% down to 50 and eliminating the 20 foot not sure [5:42] what that does for industrial type buildings again we haven't had any other than that Minnesota made um so that's [5:49] kind of the starting point oh and one thing this was not in the draft U that I [5:54] sent out but that last section section five where it talks about General [6:00] requirements and that is the section of the code that estab you see this is letter C on the screen A and B is where [6:08] we set the setback requirements in the greater Southdale District the 50 Foot from York and France but this was also [6:15] in there so we kind of had it belt and suspenders so we'd want to take it out of this section and it's just covered in [6:23] the PCD PID and the Pod districts so that's the introduction [6:29] it's basically just a started discussion if there's anything that you'd like us [6:35] to research or just give General thoughts so I'll turn it back to the commission for a [6:43] discussion can we start from the top sure um guess we could understand this [6:49] definition a little bit more and I'm looking at this ceiling here so the ground floor slab to the [7:00] bottom of the top slab or whatever is up there right M so there's like a joist [7:06] and different structures air conditioning um pipes vents that kind of [7:11] flow into the ceiling that's not considered uh we will measure the height [7:20] up to those equipment essentially in the ceiling right is that what we're [7:28] saying this is where I was thinking the pictures would help what what how it reads right it [7:34] says joy and similar designs shall not be counted in the first floor height right y okay so if I look at this [7:42] seiling here I know it has like a recess roof here the lights a little bit [7:48] lower so is the ceiling height up to the topmost section or Does it include the [7:55] section here with the lights good question we have a [8:03] twole ceiling to the I mean as it reads it' be to the underside of the slab [8:08] above so actually this since this is a drop ceiling it would be higher than that's the ceiling that you see right now yeah they say floor to floor yeah so [8:17] so it's floor level the next floor level so they as J is pointing out the next slab is way up [8:24] there right so with that in mind should this still be [8:30] how we would measure it is where I'm going right exactly that so should we be measuring it to the first fixture right [8:37] that kind of you know it doesn't make sense if it's a light but some of these permanent structures it seems like if I [8:44] tell someone that my roof is 15 ft but oh yeah there's lights and there's this this whole level that takes it up to [8:49] like 10 ft you know yeah that doesn't make sense some of that depends on the structural [8:57] um components of the building too like if it normal house 2x4 ceiling joist big [9:04] industrial building you know they have much bigger beams or floor chist or um [9:13] or trusses to kind of span that so so right so they're all different and some [9:18] will have a sopit and some won't um so I think it's always been floor to [9:24] floor it's the only way to do it for the most part but if it's a one story [9:30] building what do you do you do you do floor to top of [9:37] sheating I mean I'm sure the building department has something I'm looking for the description of that because I mean I [9:42] you guys were in the meetings this is from Southdale right and my recollection was that I'm trying to look for it now [9:48] is is that the idea was that um because [9:53] you don't want to have to tear down a building um or force it into a particular use because [10:00] uses change over time and so the idea was keep it at 20 ft for any kind of building regardless of what it was so [10:07] that you have flexibility yeah that that was the idea right and so so the 20 ft [10:12] is floor to floor so you could have a larger drop ceiling for I don't know for [10:17] Living Spaces or something instead but but that was that was the my impression of what you know when [10:25] [Music] um the project came forward and they were talking about [10:32] um the parking structure keeping the parking structure at 14 ft to match what they were going to do for their four to [10:38] four Heights because they wanted the 14 because they were going to have more [10:43] massive spans and they still wanted to have decent floor [10:50] Heights um so when I first saw 12 I thought it was a little low [11:00] so I mean I wonder if we can get from the building [11:07] department what's been a pretty typical or a for height for commercial [11:16] buildings so it's not that doesn't continue here but we're having but yeah so the thing is and and actually that [11:22] that requirement I thought actually made a lot of sense because as we're seeing now with covid and with commercial space [11:30] we're not using nearly as much or or you know business space we're not seeing nearly as much demand for that and so we [11:37] are going to be repurposing things right and so if everything was a universal 20 [11:43] ft um that would make a lot of sense now maybe you know this as an architect but [11:49] I mean if you have a drop ceiling does that reduce the energy cost compared to [11:55] no it's going to be pretty much the same CU that's just a a thin sure sure so most the heat transfers through it yeah [12:03] where did the 20 ft come from was there like research done behind that that floor height or like where did that [12:09] figure come from or was it just he was an architect so came from for sure [12:14] rooted in most of the southill like a design aesthetic too like a lot a lot of reasons but [12:21] mostly flexibility it was yeah so don't remember a lot of debate around the number said 20 ft we kind of ran said [12:29] okay yeah right y cuz that way you could have cuz he talked about you could have a school there you could have housing [12:35] you could have commercial you could have retail industrial anything would fit within the 20 ft window that was the [12:43] rational you can't have all those things if it's 15 ft if it's 12 feet if it's I [12:48] mean I mean I'm just not familiar enough with I mean are there certain requirements for certain different types of buildings that I presume that require [12:56] 20 ft housing has a much smaller footprint than like commercial retail work [13:02] right certain uses you do not need that height but others like say industrial [13:07] like you're you're going to want the potential of using height to your advantage with storage moving things [13:15] second levels within one level mezzanines yeah well but it's also the aesthetic I [13:22] mean it was to kind of make more prominent first level he he wanted he [13:28] wanted a consistent one he wants you know he talks about Street rooms I don't know how much you guys have read this [13:33] this thing but he talks about Street rooms and so you have a space that feels like you think about Paris for example [13:39] right you've got a million there actually a million different buildings on each block but they have consistent [13:46] Heights for Windows and such so it feels like a unified space even though there's different design to each building and so [13:52] that's kind of what he was going for and I also think there's some [13:57] romance that we can like turn turn some of our spaces into a Paris and we can't [14:02] because ours were all built after the car and Paris was built before cars um [14:08] so that I mean we can probably get Pockets that are a little bit more dense and so I mean the question that comes up [14:14] is like how many industrial spaces are going to go into areas around South Dell I mean maybe in Pentagon Park I don't [14:21] know we talked about industrial I have just inserted that do we talk about Industrial in Southdown well cuz industrial is one of the ones okay okay [14:29] we put the ordinance together and it covered all districts which was we probably shouldn't have done [14:34] that that's where I was and that's where that's the issue I think we have to pull industrial out of the sure that makes I [14:41] mean I think there's areas but probably all the uses industrial makes the most sense at a [14:47] higher height right so I think we're talking about height but just to close [14:52] out on the definition I think what we're saying here is that the definition makes sense [14:58] if if it goes up to the slab on the ceiling right it's just that now once we [15:04] have that in our heads as we start looking at height we just got a facted at it now right so it seems like I think [15:10] the first part seems reasonable as the definition of what [15:16] Flor uh Florida ceiling height is defined as and I add a picture that's out of [15:24] picture so I mean the other thing with with height though talking about that is that the [15:29] you know again he's talking about a consistent in Southdale he's talking about a consistent street view so the [15:35] buildings are you know if you look at his diagrams the buildings are contiguous along the block right there's [15:41] no breaks it's not Suburban right it's very Urban in the sense that they don't [15:46] have to be tall but they have to be consistent um uh where's going like that and [15:55] uh so oh but but if you look at the projects I mean you gave samples of [16:01] project you know this the staff memo yeah gave demos you know examples of projects and none of the well not none [16:07] of them but few of them are that kind of building these are all like independent Suburban style buildings with grass [16:14] around them and yeah and whatever so we're getting we're not getting the kinds of buildings well only some of [16:20] these are in South Hill but we're not really getting the kinds of buildings that the Southdale guidelines call for [16:27] and the city council is approving them so so I just find it kind of odd so [16:33] consistency seems to be kind of where you're leaning that street Room consistency but yeah I guess to that [16:40] point too certain areas aren't 20 ft as the like say 44th and [16:45] France you know the first level in all those areas aren't 20 ft you know so [16:51] they're to your point is like you can get by with probably most uses with [16:56] lower and then it's going to cost less be easier to build more affordable but when do you get too low [17:03] that you reduce flexibility right yeah the Southdale guidelines weren't meant for 44th in [17:10] France little neighborhoods and stuff right so yeah so shall it apply to the other areas probably not [17:18] right yeah so that's when we were just putting this rough draft together kind I [17:23] started at 16 and then started to think about all these other districts because this is going into zoning [17:30] and 50th in France we're thinking is in that 12 to 14 range probably similar as [17:35] 44th so that's where we kept bringing it down but it's there's nothing magic about it well and I and I get [17:42] that I mean if a building has more structural or mechanical needs and if [17:49] they have to increase their height they can will not um this is a minimum they can come [17:55] in do what they want so I wonder like the the all the build buildings that have asked for [18:00] variances what were there four to four Heights what did they so if they're all kind of establishing uh a 14t or 15t or [18:10] something maybe 10 to 20 ft they're they very 10 11 12 13 13 13 16 [18:18] 20 according to the staff report okay but it varies from a fire station [18:25] to I mean you know it's the fire station put 10 I don't know that because you know and the fire station's kind of the [18:31] fire station yeah no it didn't and it's also not [18:37] on um not on [18:42] France yeah I would say that def fire station is somewhat unique um so I would [18:47] take it off the list as a type to consider but I suspect both Whole Foods and lens and fire Le are 20 [18:55] ft well they went in before that requirement we can find out what they [19:01] actually built they have different they're both really tall spaces I don't know what they are [19:06] but and I don't know why but they've all yeah I mean the the major risk is if [19:14] we change it to something low that constricts the future adaptability is [19:20] the only thing but it also should consider like its context so like why [19:26] it's hard to do like a a catch all and like say 44th in France like as an [19:32] example if you did 20 ft that would look super out of place but if you did something like 10 or 12 it actually [19:39] would work but other areas like 50th in France have more prominent first [19:45] levels yeah that's part the issue lands PCD lands in all of these areas um you [19:55] know say we settled on 14 ft it's not to say if someone came in like [20:01] the Macy's site they're asking for a PUD you know maybe it is appropriate for those to be 20 ft and that could be [20:09] negotiated too but it's establishing that minimum so parking [20:15] garage they parking garage you're not from these parts are [20:22] you what do you guys [20:27] call okay well if it is if it is not a ramp if it [20:33] is there's a ramp and then each parking deck is like level um they usually have larger spans [20:40] and they also have clearance for cars I mean I'm thinking there's a [20:45] reason that um the South Dakota from the one at the Macy's site is saying 14 ft [20:52] I'm wondering if we can kind of check out a couple of parking ramps like if we want something to be used right ultimate [21:00] flexibility um for a parking ramp or be turned into [21:05] residential with the parking what was that ask cuz like parking ramps like 10 foot floor to floor is [21:12] fine are they asking for lower than or are they asking for 14 no they're saying [21:18] 14 they're saying 14 that's because of well cuz if a car goes in and it it's [21:26] a larger than taller than normal car and it's got to get under the beams and it's [21:32] a uh concrete whatever pretension whatever it [21:38] is and it and it has like 18inch deep beams so I'm thinking I'm thinking there's some structural reasons around [21:46] the 14 ft for garages I can tell like I'll just tell you from experience like with garages or ramps like 10 ft is a [21:53] standard on post tension or any other kind of ramps they're not going to want to build yeah more height cuz it's more [22:00] cost so like they could get by with France when cuz they that [22:06] supposedly flexible right the first floor space parking the new one the new one Ms you know what size they did for [22:14] that it probably did something larger if they wanted to adapt it so that would be like a consideration but no one's going [22:21] to want to build like a parking ramp with way too much space between it they just want build then I wonder if it's to [22:28] match the office FL to floor height yeah usually like if it's higher they'll match the level it's on if there's [22:35] access from that level into it just as unless they do you know like [22:41] some of them you'll have like they'll bury parking for the first three four levels and then there's nothing really [22:47] around it but we don't want that usually why it goes to the basement [22:53] it's kind of going off on a tangent but yeah I just asked a quick question where I was going before was what is what is [22:59] Aon 76th that's residential that's 10 [23:05] ft and 30% fenestration or transparency and then we [23:11] have the fire station which I think is unique 11 ft and I think we heard that [23:16] from a transparency perspective 40% seems reasonable for privacy if it's a [23:21] residential type building right so 45 on 30 seems in that wallpark [23:28] so are we also saying here tooo that if the not just the location but if the [23:33] usage is X it should have these requirements and the usage is why it gets different requirements or we kind [23:40] of blanketing the whole thing with because we amended the code last [23:46] year in the PCD District you can't have residential on the first floor [23:52] anymore okay gotcha yeah I remember that and then if you have [23:59] different percentages for different uses then you destroy the whole uniform [24:05] height because you want it all be set yeah so I mean is there any reason [24:11] why we wouldn't say this is just for Southdale this really doesn't apply it's in the zoning word well [24:20] another overlay do we're going to create an overlay district for the greater sou District that the same way we have [24:27] different setback for so yeah we could you know yeah I don't think it [24:33] makes sense to have this like a 44th of France or other small areas it doesn't really make sense but I don't but that's [24:40] a bad reason to take it away from Southdale which you know I you know Mick had brilliant ideas I mean this is you [24:47] know we worked for well you guys worked for five years on this or whatever right I just came in the last year interesting [24:53] concept because we were just talking about we met with our zoning auditor today to kind of get [24:58] update um and that was one thing they pointed out was that setback requirement you know in [25:06] this this section which is kind of set off from the rest of the code that we should create an overlay District to [25:13] establish that setback and we could build in the first story as part of that and we could do it as part of this be [25:19] kind of like how we have a height Building height overlay District where there's different heights that are [25:25] applied to the same district in different places right now we don't have a greater cell [25:30] District on so then o dist it's a defined [25:35] boundary that's common in most other cities bigger onesis has several we we [25:42] have them too would that be the L-shaped then it would take all the way over to Pentagon [25:48] [Music] park I think that makes sense so that would hit industrial [25:54] properties you know it would apply at the fire station and all of those so we'd still have that [26:00] issue and then what is what is the number that we're going to [26:06] set I mean yeah D just thinking of that like and taking it farther potentially [26:12] are just something to think in the long term of like one of those per small area [26:17] since we really don't have that many and some of them might be unique enough to [26:23] establish different criteria me Minneapolis has like a bunch per [26:29] specific areas you know that speak to it and then you can kind of adapt those more easily [26:36] without changing all of the zoning we've got so many zoning districts in [26:43] Southdale that's the trouble but but we don't really want [26:50] that though right I mean the whole our comprehensive plan doesn't really talk [26:56] about those separate sep even the comprehensive plan [27:02] there's a lot of different land use categories in Southdale you know there's the west side of France there's the [27:08] middle oh which is more residential there's that [27:14] hospital maybe this is a little more [27:20] difficult again trying to establish a catchall for situations that just not [27:26] everything's going to be the same but certainly this does this certainly [27:31] this doesn't apply outside of Southdale as well as it does South right and I also think the [27:40] um the sustainability thing it's a measure of the amount of Windows and the [27:46] volume it's not just the 4 to four height right because if there are no windows and there's a well insulated [27:53] ceiling and decently insulated walls you're okay so I don't I don't I don't think [27:59] the 4 to four height has as much to do with the sustainability as the amount of Windows and transparency does we hear [28:07] impacts both from there more materials yeah [28:13] yep I know this was a little bit off here but um I know with [28:20] 2B the big requirement there would be brick stone or glass just to switch off [28:26] you know as want to check St off off the list but do we just want to say that [28:31] that sounds good like you could use besides brick you could use stone or glass first 60 [28:38] ft i' be good with that I just don't know if you guys have any thoughts I know I don't know which one is cheaper I [28:46] know brick might be heavier so the internal structural work has to be [28:51] probably more but it won't use wood might use metal or concrete um on internal structure of the [28:59] building if you have brick but maybe use different materials if it's glass so I'm not sure what the cost [29:05] difference is going to be but if we say brick stone or glass can be used would that make a difference in in the [29:12] Aesthetics in a significant way well there's more to there's more to it than just that change because this this [29:17] clarifies that it's just the front building facade versus the entire verse vertical 60 ft of the building right so [29:24] why did we change it to just the front F front facing facade rather than the first rather than all four [29:30] sides because of the amount of variances we've been receiving on that or uh no we haven't been doing variances to this [29:37] this was really out of wanting to clarify what we were saying I don't think it's been a problem the way we've [29:44] got it written now but what is like a right the percentage mhm right that I [29:51] mean that Opus One in particular where it's like hey you know maybe you're 80 [29:57] ft tall and we allow more of a mix but you're still using you know what would be the same [30:05] percentage so 60 out of 80 ft 3/4 of the whole thing they're still using [30:11] Brickstone and glass but they might have a metal panel on one [30:16] stretch I mean that to me seems like the flexibility we'd want to go like maintain all sides you know with the [30:23] quality materials but if you're going taller than 60 ft maybe we allow more of a blend just for Aesthetics I thought it [30:30] was like that was kind of the trigger right if you're over 60 because otherwise what you might see [30:37] is you know the first five levels all Brickstone and glass and then the metal [30:43] panel Crown we don't like it's just like an aesthetic I think most people don't [30:50] like I know you mention that particularly yeah this this again comes [30:56] from remember that that comment and and the 60 ft being that's eye level [31:02] at the ground that's what people are seeing as they're walking that's kind of the his thinking on [31:14] that so the original language was just sorry go ahead to me it certainly looks [31:20] better to have it on all four sides or to require it on all four sides rather than to [31:25] have I mean if you think of you know houses will do it for cost reasons right the first the road facing face of the [31:32] house will be brick and then the rest of it will be siding but that can look look pretty cheap on IND on commercial [31:39] buildings if you have some brick and then the rest of it is you know something else metal or whatever it may [31:45] be yeah that's right vinyl um so I mean i' I'd be in favor of [31:53] trying to keep it at the all facades on the first vertical 60 ft but then maybe [31:59] if we were to put something in there like Jimmy said around percentages like if you're about 60 ft and stuff like [32:05] that or I don't know I mean it just seem I like complicating [32:11] codes you know we allowed that for though yeah we we recommended allowing it cuz it seemed to make [32:17] sense like their design argument was compelling right but do or do we or do [32:23] we just leave it to like you know if you want to do that just expect an easily [32:28] granted variance if you have a good yeah they're the only ones that I can remember that ask for something like [32:35] that and of course and they've gone away they can't it doesn't pencil so that one's dead [32:43] pcil which one yeah the Perkins site not the Perkins site the Eden 100 oh oh wow [32:50] good it's all about the interest rates right I think they just don't they just haven't returned my inquiries [32:58] cuz they only got their preliminary approval so you know I'm trying to work out the development contract and all that stuff and they just haven't as the [33:05] small side did the city council put other conditions on that one beyond our [33:10] recommendation and maybe you can answer this later yeah I I I don't recall but [33:16] yeah if you could look into that is there something matter with that site both [33:22] sides of the street because the uh public work site blew up too right I mean that's that's not I mean [33:32] there's yeah the senior housing piece is not moving forward either so and that's [33:37] another one where they only got preliminary approval so they're still [33:43] zoned industrial what's up is the restaurant going to still happen no the restaurant wants to be there still um [33:51] but it's the sequencing was Bill give an update to the whole city about it but if [33:57] that United Property one didn't happen then they all the dominoes don't fall so it's just basically back to the drawing [34:04] board y there's still interested in being there if we come up with something else but and then they the restaurant [34:10] that's going in at Mayon green same restaurant tour okay and then the one across the street [34:17] from the Macy's site is on hold too [34:22] right okay I'm GNA just get clarity from [34:29] commissioner day on what you were saying uh with this one you're saying all four sides to have Brickstone or [34:38] glass we rather than just the primary the front front facade of the building [34:45] right to maintain the language that all facades on the first vertical is that for all districts are you thinking [34:51] because this this carries through all of our zoning districts they would really impact [34:58] apartments right maybe that's what we want it's not required on all four sides right now is it because it's facing no [35:04] it's only facing the public realm that would be a change from the current so does facing the public realm mean like [35:11] primary facades like streets Park sidewalks is what it says but I think that was another issue that public realm [35:18] wasn't super clearly defined yep so it would be any Street [35:23] facing um or in the example of the 70th in France project where they're dividing [35:31] it um they're not public streets but it's still Public public realm I mean [35:38] again to your point even how it was worded we we've rarely had much push back on this so because it was only on [35:45] the public facing sides if we were that makes more sense to me than all four and [35:51] as I think about it like if you have an Alleyway and stuff like that between two buildings like that's fine right you [35:56] don't service service entrance the side to a building doesn't need to have brick on it [36:01] but okay but then at Southdale again mixed guidelines yeah four sides four it's a four-sided building so the [36:07] transparency should be the same on all sides in mix eyes because we're divide like for like the 70th in France that's [36:15] public on all four sides so those all those buildings should be foursided that that was his vision is that we're going [36:20] to have public space on all sides s yeah yeah we very much made that [36:28] yeah yep so I think this would hold right [36:33] this would just be whatever is publicly facing we put the good material and that [36:38] stays how it is I think I just wanted to like clarify that piece because I was like let's talk about that for a minute [36:46] it almost seems that keep what you had in there and just add glass to [36:51] it right you had all facades on the first vertical 60 ft facing the public [36:56] realm we haven't had a lot of argument over over it so far I think public realm [37:02] is better is more open to our [37:07] interpretation than front building facade is I would agree right I mean it's just [37:14] like a corner you right a corner lot you only have two fronts technically I mean is there anything else in the code that [37:20] would support you have more than two fronts um if it's a street park [37:30] sidewalk seems that does cover it yeah or area is that [37:38] you're yeah any easan area that is going to be partially for sidewalk or werf or [37:44] whatever were yeah I mean if it were you know power poles we probably don't need [37:51] it facing that easement or you would not [38:02] I'd be good with just adding glass to the what we [38:09] [Music] have so I presume Max or mix um you know [38:16] when you look at I'm trying to say map and mix at the same time you know when you look at his diagrams like this where he was BL breaking up Southdale into [38:22] blocks whatever I think the assumption is because most of these are smaller than existing block so the Assumption [38:28] like my interpretation of that was that every building or every developer would [38:34] have a whole block at least one of these little blocks right not all just like by the [38:41] bank you know the 70th the US Bank set was clear right so each so even though [38:46] that's it's one parcel now it's four and so each one of those Parcels is its own [38:52] building it has four sides it's gonna have you want a nice facade on all four sides cuz there is no dock area right [39:00] that's like built into the building or the parking or whatever yeah and even 7250 that's got this on all four sides [39:09] the sites are bigger but right then if it's not a full block you [39:15] know if you're only half of it then and I guess I don't know I don't remember if this said it anywhere but presumably you [39:21] would build the building not having a setback on the side it would be to the [39:27] Lo line if it were not a full block Just Like Old buildings right the they they [39:32] didn't decorate the size because there was going to be a building next to it right but I don't know if we we see [39:38] that we don't really see that right we see like full block is that like the old language with [39:43] the glass Edition doesn't that more cover the southill area right I mean as [39:49] they break up a small block and they're creating new streets in them everything's facing a street pretty much [39:55] public real yeah there might be like facing the public real might just be the [40:01] back side of a a Lotter building that's facing yeah like the the dental office [40:07] remember when they came through and they're creating that site up there the only public in the hockey training the [40:13] only public realm they're facing is that front so then they wouldn't have to do [40:21] three of the sides I think the dentist is going to but were they in the train [40:26] tracks sort of the hockey arena was on the train tracks yeah I think most people would be like yeah you don't need [40:33] mhm brick facing wave to it's for them W that building looks [40:40] nice that's about it then that dentist though that's um [40:47] you know there was going to be the drive aisle next to it or whatever you know was that public it's not I don't think [40:54] there was an easement there but and that's why we didn't I didn't like the peace meal development of that because [41:00] then you have no say over what's going to happen there because you would want that to be nice looking I think they're [41:06] going to move the building up to the front and make an application it's been a while since I heard [41:13] but so just on part A so I feel like Part B we're good part [41:20] A oh the transparency percentage Yeah so I know this was reduced to 50 ft but [41:27] I was looking at not just Southdale but all of France it sounds like moving up to 404 in France if we use this whole [41:34] overlay concept then we won't need to change this keep it at 75% transparency and [41:41] then we can make a different um transparency and height for other for [41:47] non Southdale areas essentially is that kind of be a if we're going this [41:54] overlay you did it the other way around right I would take this out of those other districts [42:01] right so it would be taken out of the Pod and the [42:08] PID so it would only cover the Southdale District are we keeping pod and [42:16] P for now you know we'll see what the zoning audit shakes out but yeah because [42:22] pod and they're really the same because we allow offices in the industrial that's kind of the the thing that's been [42:29] lost out there when we but they can't have the little storefronts it's they could that's the [42:36] chocolate shop couldn't have retail well you can have [42:42] retail the ice cream shop right yes [42:51] yes sorry that our moose dring moose Yi [42:57] gone yeah that one was a challenging [43:04] one busy they are very busy yeah oh wow good I go there oh interesting do [43:12] cars ftic that's what he wanted any thought on the 75 someone [43:20] there's another group that wants to get in you know we can continue downstairs too to talk about it but well actually [43:27] can't can we no we can't sorry um so any any so we'll continue this for another [43:32] work session but any thoughts on the 75% lowering I'm confused by [43:37] the because you're saying at ey level and I thought 75% was the square footage [43:44] of the whole facade from the ceiling to the floor on the first level generally it is [43:51] but we wanted to Define it usually it is going to have the windows or all the way [43:57] to the bottom I don't think anyone would put in you know just windows at 5 and 1/2 ft but and they're not going to [44:03] start them there you just wanted to do a datam line for some [44:09] reason what a datam they just wanted to say that line across your 5 and 1/2 ft I [44:17] and I didn't understand it entirely either I'm you just want to to changes [44:23] here you just want to establish somewhere in there yeah because it's not clear they always [44:29] ask how how are you measuring this and different Architects have different interpretations so is there any ability [44:36] to add more visuals to our code yes is that I think that would help a lot of [44:42] things even like example Lots even when it comes to variance requests but like [44:48] this like I think if you had like an A and A B visual it just kind of now [44:53] everyone understands what you're trying to say yeah I didn't legally it's you're [44:59] no one can get in through a loophole I don't know right and then once again I mean if it's if it's for [45:06] people rolling down the street or walking down the street or in their wheelchair down the street it's an [45:12] anthropomorphic thing that you want people to be able to look in and so the 5.5 [45:19] is cuz even if you're 5 and A2 that's the bottom of a window that look terrible that's the whole front it's [45:26] like what I I think write the diagram with a person and person people come in all [45:33] different sizes um that that's all it has to be if you're like it I love just [45:39] say it I love all but it is 75% of the of the overall surface yeah they just [45:46] want to know you don't want down here yes okay okay what I still don't get it [45:53] so it's I think we just wait for a [46:02] percent before we close so everything except columns and supports so what [46:08] basically so keep lot of request to reduce from [46:14] 75% so that's why we went to 50 see thinking that was because everybody's asked to reduce it but they're outs a [46:21] lot of them are outside Southdale okay right okay keep it 75 it's South [46:27] is reason number and so what is it about so like if you walk down actually either [46:34] a diner St Louis Park France Avenue at 44th in France for example they've got [46:40] buildings that are heavily tinted windows you know because it's a beauty salon or whatever do we say anything [46:46] because we say transparency do we say glass and can they change that after it's built or can [46:53] they add lines like the yoga studio up there right they inside the [47:01] building with the lights on I don't know have we ever got a complaint no formal [47:08] complaint like the orange blocks at the yeah and same thing happened with the Walgreens you know going years ago they [47:15] covered everything I think if we got a complaint based on that we could [47:20] enforce that language that trouble is that language [47:26] oh it does does carry through can I get an anonymous letter tomorrow well then everybody puts the [47:33] shades in because the sun right cooling heating Co temporary [47:41] vitamin they put the big shelves Trader [47:47] Jo well because it's advertising and some of that advertising is transparent [47:52] I mean it you can see out but you can't see in we want to see in [47:58] yeah see like the Vitamin Shop you can see into the building but it's the it's their shelves behind it so that's just [48:05] another way to block it and get around the code material you have all right well [48:12] we'll make some [48:18] revision change unintended consequences all right we'll do this for [48:25] another work session okay continue this is good