[0:02] all right this is the April 11th 2024 Planning Commission work session staff president Addison Lewis Carrie T Liz [0:10] olon Richmond Jeff m h KGI Jimmy Bennett [0:15] Planning Commission David alar Planning Commission maray wefel Planning Commission Quincy Smith Planning [0:21] Commission bnie Padia Planning Commission L Miranda Planning Commission [0:30] all right um so tonight um we're having a work session we have H KGI here with us tonight I think you're all uh all [0:36] know that we're we're doing an audit of our zoning code um so over the years staff the commission Council we've [0:43] identified a lot of issues so um contracted with h KGI here to do just an [0:49] audit of the of the zoning ordinance and tonight they're going to talk through of what they've seen and some preliminary [0:55] observations and get some feedback from you all so all right all right thanks [1:02] Addison uh so we're going to the agenda is short [1:08] and uh but we have a lot of slides and a lot of maps and we're hoping that he'll [1:13] talk a lot so um you can ask questions it's since it's a work session we're comfortable with questions or comments [1:20] throughout uh but we're going to do an overview of the audit project that we're [1:26] starting uh we're going to talked about the code structure and then the zoning districts are the two big topics tonight [1:33] and the next meeting we'll talk about the other two big topics as part of the [1:39] audit so as far as the overview of what we're doing um in case people don't know who we are [1:48] we are Twin Cities based been around since 1982 we do planning zoning we also do landscape architecture work and Urban [1:56] Design we have a lot of experience with updating Z own in codes in full or in [2:02] part and uh we do a lot of comprehensive plans we're in the Twin Cities so when [2:08] you update your plan we're working on typically 20 Metropolitan plans at the [2:13] same time so so we have a lot of experience in both those areas um and [2:18] then you know like s goal is to help communities create places that enrich people's lives the objectives for the [2:25] code audit are to uh evaluate the overall structure and the usability of the code uh and that [2:33] includes zoning and subdivision uh align those codes with [2:38] the comprehensive plan 2040 plan and then the small area plans that you all [2:44] have uh focus on the zoning districts and the supplementary regulations that's [2:50] the code language we don't use that word supplementary and day-to-day uh language but you have a [2:58] big supplementary regulations part of your code and so staff had wanted us to focus on that and then lastly is [3:04] development procedures and standards specifically the site planine review procedure the [3:10] Pud and the subdivision ordinance really related to the uh lot split [3:17] issue uh and then just as a basis for you know the our understanding of what [3:23] the needs are for this are that the code is is overdue for a comprehensive review uh simple development projects [3:31] are complex and time consuming in the city the zoning districts need updating [3:36] there's a sense that there's a lot of development barriers you all know there's complex formulas in there and [3:43] then uh the interest in missing middle housing being uh being allowed in the [3:49] districts uh the 2040 comp plan our understandings uh from staff and then [3:55] looking at is that the guidance is more flexible for residential development and for dent City so we're looking at that [4:02] closely I'll just quick jump in there so this is what we've talked about is we're our comprehensive plan in our zoning [4:09] there's a little bit of a disconnect there as we started that 2008 comp plan [4:14] went into 2018 the idea was to do a PUD and do that negotiation um to increase density to [4:22] match the comprehensive plan um but because we're so out of whack and um [4:28] we've talked a lot about aligning our zoning with the comprehensive plan um to [4:33] do things more by right so that's kind of that's how it basically that's how it came to be as you all know um on our [4:40] work plan so just thought I'd throw that in for some context yeah great and the last thing is [4:47] uh interest in reducing the city's Reliance on puds and the uh older planned what are [4:55] called Planned districts so with that oh I'm sorry one more thing about the [5:01] overview so where we're at we've been we've looked at a lot of we've done about half of the evaluation i' say [5:08] that's part of the audit uh we have the meeting tonight and then we're going to have a tech memo about the structure [5:14] that we'll give to the city the second meeting will probably be [5:19] end of May June we haven't set a date for that but there'll be a second Planning Commission meeting and then [5:25] there's a couple more Tech memos and those will result in a report in July and then a joint meeting with you and [5:32] the council at that point so with that I'll let be talk [5:38] about the structure and then I'll talk about the zone of districts Thane yeah um so we first wanted to talk about the [5:43] structure since that's kind of an overarching theme obviously when you talk about how the code is laid out so [5:50] we are focusing on chapter 36 zoning uh and chapter 32 subdivisions when we're [5:56] looking at this audit um and there are a number of different of headings I guess I'll call them as you go through that so [6:04] um there are 13 articles in zoning six articles in subdivision uh but then further down from that there are [6:10] divisions subdivisions and sections uh and now not all of these headings are [6:16] used uh on the same level so you see we just kind of divided up each of the [6:23] current zoning uh articles so there's 13 articles uh and you can see that the [6:29] subdivision heading really isn't used very much um but throughout um there's [6:34] not a lot of consistency from when divisions are used subdivisions and sections um and so that's something that [6:41] we noticed as we were looking through that makes it kind of confusing as you're reading because you're just not quite sure what level you're supposed to [6:48] be on um so uh similar we did the same thing for subdivision you can kind of see there um again that subdivision [6:56] heading really isn't being used um even for this one division aren't being used a whole lot um and it's mostly relying [7:02] on sections to kind of help you work through so articles and sections um I did want to flip back one [7:09] here um because one of the things we notice is that there's a pretty wide discrepancy as far as those articles go [7:16] uh and just the length of them so you've got articles that you can see are one page all the way up to 74 Pages which is [7:23] your largest article that uh article 8 districts and District regulations uh [7:28] and so usually when we see different articles or kind of chunks of the code that are getting long like that [7:35] usually that's an indication to us that there's probably some reorganization that needs to happen there um and kind [7:40] of a breakout of some of those to just make them more usable um because you don't necessarily want a One article [7:47] that's one page and then you've got one that's 74 that starts to get confusing for people to understand what's exactly [7:52] in those bigger sections um so uh one of the other [7:58] issues that identified as we were working through and that Jeff's going to focus on more tonight is just the [8:04] districts themselves and I know that's a focus that we've heard from staff um but you have you have base districts uh and [8:11] you have plan districts and you also have subdistricts uh and with those [8:16] subdistricts from a structural level it's getting confusing because as we read them it sounds like they act as [8:22] normal districts um but they're on kind of that subdistrict level as far as the [8:27] organization of the code goes um and so it's it's challenging to read through and to understand both for staff [8:34] um and I'm sure for members of the public as well to understand exactly which regulations apply to which parts [8:39] of the city um the other piece that I kind of alluded to is that article 8 [8:45] where all the districts live today um that's quite large uh and so our [8:50] recommendation would be that that gets split into multiple different articles uh and that those would be organized [8:55] based on kind of similar uh similar types of districts so uh you'd have you [9:01] know a section that has all the residential districts uh another article that has the non-residential districts [9:07] just to try to make things a little bit easier to find for when people are looking uh for specific [9:13] things uh some of the other issues that we saw reading through um did include [9:19] just the uses in general right now those are um listed out in a pretty long list of text for each district um and they're [9:27] very very specific uh so a couple of our recommendations there would be to create some tables just to help organize those [9:33] uses and again make things easier for people to find and work through the code um and also to focus on kind of getting [9:39] rid of some of those very very specific uses you don't need six or 12 different [9:45] uses that are all talking about different kinds of retail sales most cities are moving to just having retail [9:51] sales as a general category instead of listing those very very specific types of uh types of sales for example um um [9:59] with that we'd also recommend that you make sure that each use is clearly defined um just to make sure that [10:05] everyone is on the same page when someone comes in and has an idea um that way they're looking at the same [10:10] definitions that staff is um Council Planning Commission everybody's on the same page um Jeff mentioned article 12 which [10:18] is that supplementary District regulations Section uh that is also one of your larger articles in the zoning [10:25] code uh and it's really being used as kind of this catchall if you will um place where there are lots of [10:32] different requirements that really aren't related topically uh so you've got things like standards for specific [10:39] uses uh right up next to parking requirements right up next to requirements for setbacks um and really [10:46] what that does when someone is trying to find that language it's challenging to know where that is uh and so kind of the [10:53] theme is that we' theme of the night is that we'd recommend that you group those topical [11:00] language pieces um with similar topics um and SE separate them out as you need [11:06] to make it easier for people to find um again kind of going on that same [11:12] theme there are some different topics like definitions and procedures that are actually located kind of throughout [11:18] various articles in the zoning code and we'd recommend that you pull those all into one one spot um so they're easier [11:25] to find um so uh the main kind of three [11:30] pieces of structural improvements that we saw as we were looking through the code would be to to do some reorganization and reformatting uh [11:37] update the structure of the zoning districts and the uses and their standards uh and then create an updated [11:42] numbering system so I'll touch on each of these in just a little bit more detail here um so I've already talked a [11:49] little bit about just grouping related topics together um and making sure they're on the same like heading level [11:56] um but one of the other pieces would be to reorganize as you're moving things around try to make sure that the areas [12:02] that are more frequently used uh are kind of higher up or closer to the top of the code um so typically what we see [12:09] is that information about the zoning districts themselves um uses setbacks [12:15] all of those kinds of dimensional standards that often staff are getting calls from Property Owners people are [12:20] wanting to know that information that gets moved up higher so that people that just want the answer to that specific [12:27] question don't need to Wade through you know levels and levels pages and pages of your code before they get the [12:32] relevant information that they're looking for um so like I said districts usually end up at the top things that [12:38] are used less frequently or are a little bit more technical things like procedures that tends to kind of find [12:44] its way to the bottom of the code staff obviously will know where that is um people who use the code frequently will [12:49] know where that is um but the people who are just calling um for kind of those general questions don't need to know [12:55] that yeah do we have um I don't know if our system do we have any search data [13:01] that we know what people search for when they're going through our code El we [13:07] do I don't know if it collect General calls you receive know what calls we get questions about on the [13:15] [Music] resal yeah I would say more residential [13:22] um everywhere from setbacks to where you can your card to I was thinking more [13:28] online when you doing doing a search in search window does it have the number of hits per page kind of thing maybe we [13:35] could ask calls I get frequently from developers who are putting a application [13:42] together and they can't find things in our code it's buried in different sections that's the most common call [13:48] that I get so oftentimes I have to find that section and let them know where it is so I would be very helpful for and if [13:56] the developers people who do that for a living are having trouble with it sure our residents are too yeah and I had one [14:03] other question do we I've seen some cities have tables for their districts and uses do we have too many districts [14:09] and uses do you have a table in our you don't have too many to do a table and we would recommend a table yes yep [14:18] um let's see the other piece here is just to use those consistent headings across all of your different articles uh [14:25] we'd recommend getting rid of that subdivision one since it's really not being used um you don't need another another level [14:31] at this point um so I did just want to flip up this is just a potential zoning [14:36] reorganization um just to kind of get the ideas flowing um so we went from 13 [14:42] articles down to 10 in this scenario uh and you can see again those those districts are towards the top there um [14:48] so you've got residential as article three non-residential as article four and then overlays as five uh and then [14:55] you kind of work your way down um all the way to procedures and definitions at the bottom [15:00] so um similarly for subdivision um we stayed with six articles but you can [15:05] just see there's a little bit of change as far as what those are called and how they would be organized um and we do [15:11] have a much more detailed version of this um that I didn't put on the slide tonight but this is just in [15:18] general um as far as the structure of districts and uses and their standards [15:24] um again we're talking about grouping those similar districts uh together uh and treating those those subd districts [15:30] that you have today as full districts um and talking with step it really sounds like that's how they're being used so [15:36] you may as well bring them up to the level um that they are being used uh with today uh and then to your point the [15:43] tables I just threw up an example table uh from is that from here yes okay um so [15:51] this is actually what you have today your uses that we put into a table um so you can see the districts across the top [15:57] um the existing uses across the bottom uh and then within you would have um you know P for permitted use C for [16:03] conditional use that type of thing to show people where uh each use is allowed [16:09] um and we'd recommend that for the uses uh as well as for your lot and your site Dimensions just to try to again make [16:15] things easier to to understand uh it also helps to compare across districts if someone's wondering hey what district [16:21] makes sense for the project that I that I want to create they can look and say okay the uses that I'm looking for are [16:28] allowed in whichever District they might be allowed in um and then they kind of have an [16:33] understanding going forward of where where that might belong so um questions on that before I move [16:41] on no you'll probably get to my question okay well if I don't feel free to jump in um last thing I wanted to talk about [16:49] was um a potential renumbering uh format um so the current numbering system of [16:54] the code uh you start with the chapter uh so 36 for zoning uh then you've got a [16:59] hyphen and then you just have sections that are numbered sequentially from 1 up to [17:06] 1,717 oh uh that's a lot of sections So within there there are a lot [17:12] of different uh reserved sections uh to provide that opportunity for if there were ever additions or amendments to the [17:18] code uh that there would be room for you to add that language in uh without [17:23] having to renumber everything that comes after that uh we'd recommend a little bit of a shake up here uh again we're [17:31] talking about using those articles divisions and headings as far as uh or divisions and sections as those headings [17:37] uh and we would recommend kind of using those numbers that are given to those [17:43] headings uh within the numbering structure so the best way to explain this is probably to use an example um [17:50] which is kind of that colored on the screen there so you'd still keep the 36 uh in front of the hyphen to denote the [17:57] chapter uh but then those those first two numbers after The Hyphen would be related to the article uh and then the [18:03] next would be related to the division uh and the last would be related to the section so if you are you know article 8 [18:10] division 5 section 2 the number would be 0852 um so the reason for that is uh [18:18] there's a few different reasons one is that for staff or for people who you use this on a daily basis that numbering [18:26] actually will help them kind of navigate and Point them to where they are in the code faster so if they see that 08 they [18:32] automatically know I'm going to article 8 and then I can start to look for the section that I'm looking [18:38] for um it also helps to just those reserved sections that I talked about [18:43] that this numbering system eliminates the need for those um just because of the way that this is numbered um the [18:50] odds that you have you know sections 1 through n of every division of every [18:57] article is pretty low there will there will be gaps in the way that that's numbered um and those will kind of [19:03] naturally give you the breaks that you need in order to be able to add in new text as things change and as the years [19:09] uh go on uh and then lastly it really just does give you a consistent numbering um whereas right now you've [19:16] got section 36-1 and then section 36- a th000 um this one would have the same [19:23] number of digits um kind of throughout your code just to keep that consistent all right I know I would was late did [19:29] you uh go through what denotes the difference between a chapter article Division and section uh as as far as at [19:38] the beginning of the meeting did I miss like how you determine um all of that the logic though the logic yeah oh uh no [19:46] I didn't go back to that your just cover what we have and there's another [19:53] category that's not used we didn't yeah we didn't specifically go through it um generally articles are kind of those [19:59] bigger um bigger topics and then as you move down um things just kind of get nested under okay [20:08] so questions about structure at all thoughts opinions yeah just a question [20:13] on the numbering structure so it's 08 52 is it possible that it's going to [20:19] have you know 05 like 15 and then like a 21 like so it's yeah you know two digits [20:28] for each one of those sections why did we just choose one yep um so our experience has been that you only need [20:35] one um and I would have recommended that you actually just do one for the article as well um but you already have 13 and [20:42] we were getting to 10 so I wanted to make sure you had that room to grow if you needed um but our experience writing [20:48] codes has been that um with this structuring there are enough um splits [20:54] that you don't need to go higher than nine so you don't need those those double digits for the the divisions and [21:00] the sections um I don't know which one was first whoever wants to go this is [21:06] probably Carry has this ever been done before have have they attempted to to simplify or or yeah I think the last [21:15] one was in the 80s where they recodified and renumbered everything so it's been a [21:21] long time which is typical of cities we're [21:27] finding out cuz when we get hired it's usually that that kind of a time period ours is so good why change [21:35] it I just going to not seeing in other codes that I'm used to looking up you [21:41] know usually when it gets to those other ones there's like a decimal between each to I guess better understand what that [21:47] numbering system is I'm just thinking of a new user then would kind of better [21:53] understand your dialing down and then it would allow you to have larger numbers [21:59] if you did so happen to have 10 divisions for instance yeah and that's [22:04] um I would agree that that is often what we see is um decimals or maybe there's an extra hyphen yeah either either one [22:12] that being said the subdivision and the zoning are only two chapters of your entire city code uh and so our thought [22:19] was to keep it fairly consistent with what you have in the other chapters of the code so that you're not introducing [22:25] decimals or extra hyphens where they don't don't exist today if that makes sense I guess maybe somebody was because [22:32] you might only have information that speaks to an article or are you assuming [22:38] that every single article will have a division and will have a section cuz otherwise then like you know the [22:44] numbering fall short the thought that's the thought is that you would be consistently using all of those headings [22:49] in all of the Articles then I have yeah less of a problem with it but I've seen that where that's why that's there so [22:55] then those numbers continue or simplify so just curious yeah you said the code [23:01] was done in the 80s well just in terms of changing the whole numbering system for the whole for [23:08] the whole code right now we're just talking about zoning yes yeah and then when was it digitized you know oh yeah [23:15] then then we went to Muni code that was maybe 15 years ago okay so little [23:24] bit more recent but the numbering pretty much stayed the same [23:30] [Music] from all right that's it on structure [23:35] we'll turn it back to Jeff for for the real fun today so I guess I just have a question maybe on structure I've seen in [23:42] other codes where effective in addition to tables there's little you know [23:47] Graphics especially to Define like a corner lot you know where people read it and still don't understand it including [23:54] myself so I don't know if by structure you didn't consider the incorporation of [24:01] simple diagrams but i' I'd urge us to do it because that pictures are worth the Thousand Words yes we would second that [24:08] opinion I don't know if that falls under structure or just kind of General but yes we have found that Graphics are very helpful um at least to provide kind of a [24:16] picture for when the definitions that are complicated is really where they um [24:21] they help out a lot but other places throughout the code um too so and as part of the code rewrite um you [24:28] you would identify those places as you're looking through it and saying yeah that's a really complicated provision a graphic would make sense [24:35] there so I don't know that we're that we are specifically identifying where the [24:40] graphics would be as part of this project but Graphics in general with it would be the it'd be the next step once [24:46] we figured out what we have to do then then we get into the to all that detail yeah we've got some complicated [24:53] definitions and formulas yeah okay [24:59] are there other initiatives to look at uh this sort of similar numbering structure in other parts of the code or [25:05] we going to create some confusion that permitting might have this numbering [25:11] structure but now zoning has this numbering structure so the way that it was [25:16] designed it was designed to work within the structure you have I mean right now you do have two numbers before the [25:22] decimal and or The Hyphen and then at times you've got four numbers after so [25:28] it's it shouldn't throw anything else off um it's really just trying to at least for zoning and subdivision have [25:35] consistent numbers of digits um and a way to kind of help navigate using that [25:40] numbering system yeah I think your graphic to the [25:47] right even has like a key when navigating the code would be helpful so yeah it's hard to explain why each [25:54] number is important without showing where where they belongs [25:59] and our code is kind of backwards we've got all that definitions and procedures up front [26:07] and all the good stuff is way at the end like wow I'm flying through this and it has a good ending is that what [26:14] you're say no [26:20] science all right so now we're going to talk about zoning districts we're even going to have some visuals because we [26:26] have some interesting Maps um let's [26:32] see all right so there's different ways to try to understand your current set of [26:38] districts and we're trying to get our heads around how they work today why they are what they are today and maybe [26:45] you all can Enlighten us on some of it but what we're seeing so far is there's what we would call nine base districts [26:52] so that means there's um four conventional districts which most cities [26:59] have R1 R2 rmd and then the parking district and uh and then what the code [27:07] calls five planned based districts so they're acting like districts I'm not I [27:14] guess we're not clear exactly why they're called Planned other than they have subdistricts but they seem to be a lot [27:20] like districts yeah so the reason that it's called plan was because the attorney way way back when didn't [27:27] believe in plan unit developments okay so when they created these districts every one of them is like a PUD they [27:35] were created for a specific development a planned commercial District a plan one [27:40] two and three um same with our residential districts planned residents [27:46] districts one two three four or five one of them is a senior District um and then [27:53] with the mix the MDD districts mixed developments are for specific [27:59] PE like md4 is Grand View MDD 5 is Edinburgh md6 is Centennial Lakes so it [28:06] was really a PUD with a different [28:13] name um yeah so that's those and then there's 23 planned or PUD districts [28:22] right now and we we say they're base districts because the property's rezoned to a PUD whereas another cities or some [28:29] cities a PUD is an overlay so you still have a zoning District on the property but you also have a PUD overlay so we [28:37] worked with both of those approaches um and then you have two [28:42] overlay districts which is the building height overlay and the flood P another way to look at it is um [28:52] there's nine base districts three are residential and you have one District [28:58] for the rest of the types of uses that are in zoning and uh you know car's [29:04] description is helpful why there's only one seems complicated to [29:13] manage um but that's another way to try to get our hand heads around it uh and then there's 17 base [29:20] subdistricts so yeah I guess essentially what you're saying is there's two sets of puds in the code and [29:28] ways so puds are complicated you have two sets of puds that's even more complicated so um so we're just trying [29:36] to figure out how we might recommend that you navigate to something a little [29:41] bit different than this so uh and then the way we usually think about districts are residential districts mixed use [29:50] districts business districts sometimes there's public districts um sometimes people separate [29:55] commercial from industrial um so this is another way of organizing them where you [30:01] just have three residential districts which you know seems low uh compared to [30:07] a lot of cities R1 R2 and then the plan district and then the mixed use you just [30:13] have two districts but you have a lot of subd districts uh and then business you just [30:18] have uh four uh yeah [30:25] so so yeah typ you know there'd be like I don't know say three to five residential [30:32] districts we do usually start working with cities that have a lot more residential districts and we find they don't need them all and they will [30:39] streamline them usually um cities in general are moving towards mixed use [30:45] districts and converting even commercial districts to mixed use some cities have [30:51] gone from not having really commercial districts they're they're just mixed [30:57] juice and they allow so we've seen that that Trend [31:02] too um so the mapping another thing that we do when we do code audits is we look [31:08] at how the districts are applied and you know are they being how how how much they're being used and for [31:17] residential look at how how the housing types are allowed and so you can see here I have draft numbers up there [31:24] because we might we want to make sure the acreages are as close possible to accurate but you can see from the map R1 [31:33] is a dominant District in residential uh we typically see in the [31:38] 80s I'd say so um and then you have a whole bunch of districts subdistricts [31:46] and they're all very small used you know not very often um so [31:53] you know as part of the audit we would look at are the standards atically different between [31:59] them could they be the same thing could things be Consolidated um so that's residential [32:05] another way to see it is to get rid of that R1 since it's so [32:12] big and then you can start to look at patterns of how the other I guess these [32:17] are prds and PSR but planned residential districts are used throughout the [32:24] city so I wouldn't say we have a head around this quite yet the pattern of it [32:30] yet uh because we're not we're not recommending the updates yet but the maps are really helpful as we actually [32:37] do the update or when you get to that point so yeah maybe this car so are all [32:43] the different PRD districts about density is that why they're they have yeah and they're so similar PRD 2 and [32:50] three are almost identical but they were tailored for a specific project but they [32:57] were slate slly different so some of those yeah we should we should um [33:03] combine together but the other piece of it we have formulas for how many units you can get in those districts and they [33:10] come nowhere near what the comprehensive plan would allow so we need to when we [33:15] get to fixing these things we need to look at densities and make it simp much [33:20] simpler not formula D we have those densities in the slides we can look at [33:25] that uh you know similarly for mixed juice and Commercial districts we put those [33:33] together uh partially because most of them allow residential too even the the [33:39] PCD not all of them it seems like maybe one of them doesn't but but then again [33:44] there again you can see how they're being used and I guess Carri you're saying they're [33:52] not they're not being used for new projects very often right no not [33:58] since we created the Pud ordinance yeah yeah and why we have ndd3 I don't know [34:05] because it's never been used right and we've seen that before but let's keep it but the way you're describing yeah [34:13] it's weird four five and six were specific we're a hoarder house or something here it feels like well and [34:20] PSR 3 also doesn't show up on the map [34:26] so um um yeah so like one thing we're finding [34:32] is cities that you use puds a lot it's and we well this is a topic for the for [34:39] the group too is if you're using puds or the plan districts in the [34:45] past a lot of times it means you don't have good districts to use there's not another alternative so you know we're [34:51] working with a city right now where they they are using the Pud all the time and they kind of want to reduce the use of [34:57] it but you look at their base districts you're like nobody would ever use those districts so instead of fixing the [35:04] Pud which is what the city wants to do it seems like they should probably think about fixing the other districts that's [35:09] what we to do that's why we have that's our biggest issue yeah so uh business [35:17] districts another map you can see how those are where they're being used and [35:23] how much uh and then we've mapped puds so you can see I guess this is showing [35:30] where new developments been happening I guess over the last 10 to 15 years [35:37] basically um and then each you know there's 23 of [35:42] those so you know at some point there's just more and more districts in the code and you do have them all in the code [35:48] sometimes we work with cities that have a PUD procedure in the code and then all [35:54] those puds are not in the code they're in the file [35:59] and Addison has to ask questions and go look for the file and only paper carbon [36:05] copy uhhuh yep yep well we have them in the code too but like a lot of times [36:11] it's like identified by just a legal description mhm so you're like you [36:16] probably know cuz it's one during your time but like I look at it and sometimes I don't know which property it's even [36:22] referring to and right now we've got an issue with mun code if you go in there like the last four of them the numbers [36:29] have gotten screwed up so we're working on that if you if anyone's noticed it [36:35] yeah so one of the you know one of the questions is are puds needed because the base districts aren't working and I mean [36:41] the way you're describing the plan districts there's hardly any base districts there's R1 R2 and rmd and a [36:50] parking District you don't want parking everywhere right so that's not probably super useful so okay uh [36:58] so preliminary findings uh so districts and subjects [37:03] there's 22 districts and subject districts which is more than needed obviously we want to streamline that and [37:10] create fewer based districts seems like the way to go uh there's minimal [37:16] differences between some of the subd districts I mean pod1 and pod2 have no there's no [37:22] difference um some you don't really need to have them be different things [37:28] uh there's no District purpose statements and therefore no subdistrict purpose statements good point you know [37:34] so you know evaluating why you need all those it's more of a documentation of [37:41] what happened in the past doesn't really help you to point people to what you want to happen in the future and if I [37:48] can add um some of the work I do is just daily planning um and so you guys jump in too but I find the purpose statements [37:55] to be the most helpful when someone is asking for a rezoning um because then you can say well you know this is what [38:02] this District was intended for is what you're trying to do or is what you're looking for is that appropriate in that [38:09] district and that's one of the ways that I try to that helps me to kind of understand should staff support it [38:15] should it not not talking for you guys necessarily but that's one of the ways that I look at it when I when I work with my cities yeah I think that would [38:22] be extremely helpful for us because right now we just go to the Pud here's [38:28] the comprehensive plan this is what we're trying to accomplish we don't really have base zoning that fits this [38:35] so it becomes that negotiation which was done intentionally but I think we need to [38:40] move away from that so how do you decide like for your [38:46] example pod1 and pod2 so they're different and we want to combine them [38:51] how do you how do you do that um how do you decide which [38:58] know which is which is Superior or preferred yeah well uh let's see it's [39:04] probably even a bigger question that but we would look at the standards and just see by combining them would it make [39:10] anything non-conforming okay and try to set the standards so that nothing in those two [39:16] areas becomes non-conforming ideally so an example of that when we [39:23] did that big re um C ification back in I think it [39:28] was 1984 this came up with the Southdale Office Center site that we reviewed oh [39:34] month or so ago the site was originally zoned planned commercial district and [39:39] that's how it developed we allow office in the commercial district and there was a restaurant there that was the big boy [39:46] that's now tabern on France when that was rezoned with that recodification that [39:55] the city chose to rezone it to PL office District because most of the project most of the property had developed as [40:02] office and they wanted to keep that in the future um so the restaurant became [40:09] non-conforming there's an example of yeah when you do some of those changes [40:14] some buildings uses are going to become non-conforming and the non-conforming [40:20] just grandfathers that particular thing in so if they wanted to demo in this who knows P area or whatever it was they [40:27] wanted to demo it and build a new restaurant they would have to go through yeah right now well it would be a use [40:34] variance and can't do can't really do that right so that's why this last [40:40] developer wanted to go to the plant go back to the original zoning where restaurant and office were both allowed [40:47] yeah yeah in another city where they had a lot of peties a lot of them were for [40:53] town homes and somewhat similar the the code [40:59] did not have a way to do Town Homes I mean they weren't really defined well in the code they didn't have the standards [41:05] and so they did every one of them as unique puds right yeah and [41:10] so well Beth can tell you how many they had and staff ended up going through all of those and and looking at what the [41:17] unique standards were usually setbacks and then created a new District that [41:22] would allow tow houses outright rather than having to do puds yeah I think they [41:27] were over 100 yeah they were it was a lot and [41:32] staff was very done working with that which is understandable we're to 20 so [41:38] now not get to 100 [41:44] yeah other preliminary findings are uh the for obvious reasons I guess the [41:51] district subd districts are restrictive you know they're they're really catered towards separating things rather than [41:57] flexible in the allowed in the uses that are allowed so [42:04] um looking at the comprehensive plan it sounds like the direction is to be more flexible with housing development and uh [42:12] standards and density so you know like even the R2 District which is not a [42:17] planned District only allows two unit dwellings and this is a first for me it [42:23] doesn't even allow single family I haven't seen that before so that that surprised me well we've been [42:30] down that rabbit hole before um Planning Commission proposed an ordinance to the [42:35] city council that would allow single family in the R2 and they said no to it [42:41] yeah so that's that's that's restrictive the there's three subd districts that [42:47] allow senior housing where are those Gary which ones three the three that [42:54] only allow senior housing oh which are they yeah is that is that common Bond [43:01] there's on Xerxes and cross town that series of senior housing right [43:09] there y there's that one the three districts are PRD five three and four [43:14] it's I think it's allowed in other ones also but interesting three of them just are focused on senior [43:22] housing not really intended to be used again probably right [43:30] one question I have um just in general and like where you might go with this [43:35] too like being somewhat familiar and looking at other codes in other [43:40] cities you know is there is there a recommendation to kind of generalize and [43:45] make even the nomenclature of these districts more consistent with what's out there and is there anything truly [43:53] unique in Idina that really warrants it being some crazy name I mean even having [43:58] all the PRD it's like you just grow used to it but why does everything have to be planned you know like that should all be [44:05] eliminated just thinking of nomenclature and kind of getting up to a similar [44:10] standard of other cities or is that going to be part of your recommendations it it can be based on [44:17] the conversations I mean um like a basic one is to move away [44:22] from saying single family dwelling and saying single unit two unit don't don't say multif family just talk about [44:29] housing types and not family types basically so a lot of times we're [44:35] updating residential districts not to just have one lot size or one uh setback [44:43] well setbacks usually they can be similar but lots especially because town houses need small can have much smaller [44:50] Lots than a single family home so we often times are setting up districts to have standards by housing type [44:57] within the district and then you know somewhere all the districts will allow more than one [45:04] one housing type and so if there's concerns about this housing type being next to this one then set up the [45:10] standards that you know there needs to be bigger size setbacks or know something with the height and just set [45:17] those standards up so that the property owners and the developers know what works up front [45:24] rather than entering the Pud port out at the end with not knowing what's [45:31] going to work good point um see what else we [45:38] have yeah so uh and this is probably pretty obvious to everybody but the way [45:44] this is set up with the districts and subdistricts seems like this is resulting in the need for rezoning every [45:50] time something gets developed a PUD requires a rezoning and so you know not [45:56] good or bad but if if the code or the and or the city wants development to not [46:03] have as many barriers you know you want you want development to to happen and you want to be good if if there's always [46:11] a hurdle like rezoning or a conditional use or you know U PUD three-step Pro I [46:18] mean all that stuff can be barriers to development um if if that's goal is to [46:23] get rid of the barriers which it sounds like that's in the comp plan so [46:29] it's well the idea behind it was to have standards that are met in order to [46:37] justify that P so it was to give the city more power in their review of [46:42] projects where they it or didn't using the P [46:48] yeah uh another thing that we're seeing is the allowed uses are cumulative [46:54] across some of the subdistricts so if you are using PRD 3 or PCD 3 you you see [47:03] a list of things but then you have to go to another list to see if it's also in that list so they build upon each other [47:10] or they're cumulative and usually we get rid of that that's confusing usually for people to use that kind of a that's for [47:16] that table yeah um uses in the mixed use districts [47:23] are mostly conditional it looks like rather than permitted [47:29] which uh typically we see mixed use districts as being more flexible and uh including more things in [47:37] it you wouldn't require conditional uses for that many things I not that you would have them all be permitted but it [47:44] looks like almost all the everything that's permitted in like PCD 1 2 and three is conditional in the mixed use [47:49] districts yeah which is weird yeah don't know the history behind that one yeah [47:55] typo probably said we're not using those mixed use districts on new projects anyway so it's [48:01] like yeah yeah uh and then just in general I mean [48:07] we're seeing this trend with cities going towards mix mixed use districts the way the districts are set [48:14] up in the code right now it's not clear which districts are intended to be mixed use so there's some districts [48:21] like you know if somebody was going to use PRD four or five or there are are [48:27] some commercial uses that are allowed even through accessory uses which is [48:32] another way you can do that but it's it's really hard to see that that's possible if you're the property owner [48:38] the developer you know when it says PRD and then it actually would allow mix use of [48:46] use is is what it looks like it's set up for and the PCD [48:55] districts allow res residential by conditional use so I don't that's really a mixed use dist yeah [49:02] yeah uh as far as dimensional standards the I mean we've talked with [49:08] staff and we can it can be mapped but city has a lot of non-conforming [49:14] lots uh and that would be for lot area width and depth especially and uh we [49:22] recent we've been working with St Louis Park and one of the things we did there early on was to map the non-conforming [49:28] lots and it was really high it was more than 50% I think for two of the [49:34] districts and I mean Richfield if you the new they were in the news for re I [49:40] think they were calling it Rel legalizing Richfield that they were reducing lot [49:45] sizes to legalize a lot of lots in the city you know they weren't bad because [49:50] they were small but the zoning code would say they were nonconforming and so they reduced their sizes mean that the [49:59] lots are don't have the dimensions for the plan use is that what you mean by a non-conforming lot yeah so uh right now [50:06] you have a 9,000 square foot minimum for R1 if if we map that there's probably [50:13] it's probably half of Edina is non-conforming is less than 9,000 square ft yeah the whole East Side really well [50:20] anything more than that then it has to meet the median within the neighborhood so then it's like well then half or [50:25] below that half or above so you add that in and it's way over 50% that are not con [50:30] foring so just developed as suburbs expanded [50:35] right e din was from like the 40s and 50s small Lots very much like [50:41] Minneapolis and then as you get more car spoly and culde saacs and whatever the lot sizes got bigger so our standard lot [50:48] size just became bigger so the whole east side of the city is non-conforming yeah and then when the [50:55] West Side started had develop that's when they came up with that median average you got to [51:02] calculate all the Lots within 500 ft so that means more Varan [51:10] right yeah yeah we we even did uh with St Louis [51:15] Park well I guess first one example we worked with grand maray this is an easy [51:21] example to look at we worked with grand Marine they had minimum lot sizes that made no sense s to Grand Murray if [51:28] you've been there they have a lot of small Lots but they had basically had a Suburban zoning code and so we did a lot [51:35] of mapping and they ended up reducing their lot size down to I think 5,000 square F feet um that's where they [51:42] landed uh and then St Louis Park I don't know exactly when their [51:48] zoning code came into place they probably had one early on but they could go back and see when the lot size [51:56] standards went up and when two family units were [52:01] taken out of District so the if you go back you can see things that were legal [52:06] aren't legal now and now they're talking about they would rather have them be legal which helps with the discussion [52:13] just to see that you know it used to be this way it developed this way but then it was you know non-conforming or [52:20] illegal at some point based on the changes to the code and there's pressure at the state level to change that right [52:25] I mean it didn't this year but trying to change that well one is still in [52:31] committee yeah yeah so we have every parcel in GLS in [52:37] it data I didn't realize that sorry that's cool I didn't yeah and so you can [52:44] uh I'm sure the city can map L area we tried to map we've tried to M lot with [52:51] elsewhere that gets more difficult know because you have to measure it yeah it's a unique way you measure it and so any [52:59] lot that's not a rectangle it gets really hard um plus like I said with the standard being for any lot like over [53:07] 9,000 ft the median being the standard every parcel has a different standard [53:13] because it has a different set of parcels within 500 F so it's like you'd have to survey every property right to [53:20] know which ones are conforming which ones aren't and any lot that doesn't meet lot area width or depth any one of [53:26] standards is not conforming I'm sure you guys look at [53:33] cities all the time that have like these patterns of development like Comm Miranda mentioned you know the east side [53:39] is like this the West side's like this yet we have codes that it's a catchall you know and it doesn't apply to than [53:47] half and it it goes the same for pretty much all of our commercial districts some things are written for Southdale [53:54] more than they're written for like a small neighborhood note yeah so I'm assuming at least with some of those [54:00] maybe overlay districts as a tool to like um increase a standard in a Bas [54:06] zoning do is there anything similar with residential like like from that [54:11] standpoint I mean you show the map it's like that's all of Edina you know spatially is R1 but even that R1 is [54:20] different you know the East Side versus the West Side anything geographically [54:26] with yeah I think it's more typical that there'd be an R1 R2 three and four or [54:33] maybe even a five so different districts that allow more and more housing [54:38] types so you know R3 maybe wouldn't allow single family but it would allow [54:44] town houses and apartments and so um there's a bace districts that allow [54:51] those things okay they're not just specific to a project like car was [54:57] I was thinking about like um Country Club right I mean I think there's a historic preservation component to like [55:03] how you can build there but lot sizes there are very different than over in [55:08] Parkwood nles do cities ever um have an R1 single family but this Zone versus [55:16] single family but this I mean that sounds sort of like discriminatory but like it's a it was developed in the 30s [55:21] right it's a very different vibe than the culdesac vibe do do people ever [55:27] separate yeah yeah yeah I mean one thing we're doing in St Louis Park is really looking at um blocks with alleys versus [55:35] blocks without alleys and you don't have that I mean looked at the map part in [55:41] part but not a lot of alleys it doesn't seem like so for them it's more of a split [55:48] like maybe half the city has alleys half dozen oh yeah so that might warrant [55:53] that's that's warranting them having different regulations spas on that because you know if there's an [55:59] alley you know they the Lots can get narrowed because the driveway is going to be from the alley so um so they're [56:06] more comfortable with smaller Lots on those blocks but yeah to your point if [56:11] if there's a lot of lots this size over here versus that side there could be two districts that that work in that that [56:21] case is that what you were thinking I'm just yeah throwing it out there when you talk about how much is non-conforming [56:27] it's non-conforming if you only have one standard for area width depth if you had multiple standards and then maybe that [56:34] assuages people's fears for things like ad where you have maybe tiny skinny you know like you start to have different [56:41] kinds of single family neighborhoods yeah what [56:46] did johnon or four R1 yeah they had like [56:51] four or five r1s so it' be like R1 100 and it's based on lot width and r180 [56:58] r160 and so it's the same uses that are allowed but the Lots themselves were different sizes the minimum lot sizes [57:06] just to give you a little history 2008 comprehensive plan um within it had these n these um [57:15] different neighborhood character districts and the Planning Commission at that time following the comp plan [57:21] recommended to the council creating separate zoning districts for the residential area um but that did not [57:29] pass so Planning Commission granted it's a whole new set of people but it was [57:35] tried 15 years ago and we were also there was like six [57:43] or seven different character districts too which would have been diff difficult [57:48] to come in and rezone the entire city and how do you set up the standards and [57:54] it would have been a challenge but maybe two easty D West I don't [58:02] know another thing some of the dimensional standards are overly complicated which Addison was talking to [58:09] is so some of those are minimum lot area we and depth have that [58:14] median 500 radius uh rule so that's that's [58:21] complicated yard setbacks we thought they were complicated but I've been told they're [58:28] better right at the St compated they're better than they were yeah that they're actually better than they used to be so [58:35] the front though is based on what the average of the two next door or the block so again anybody calls us wants to [58:42] know what the front your set back is it's like well you to do a survey can't tell you you know [58:47] yeah um and then the density allowances uh in the PRD those look [58:55] pretty yep a formula that doesn't work anymore and it doesn't give you the [59:00] densities that match the compl we took a sa at calculating densities which I'll I'll put up [59:06] but uh and then Building height there's looks like there's inconsistencies [59:11] between the overlay district and the map that is out there versus what's in some of the small area plans and then the [59:19] puds yeah because what we haven't done is with the Pud we've allowed greater [59:25] height but we didn't go in and amend the overlay map that's something I want [59:32] to not sure how to address it [59:38] but uh so the last thing we have that we're going to present is the [59:43] residential density so uh krie talked about the inconsistencies between the zoning [59:49] districts and the comp plan land use categories uh the highest density [59:54] allowed in the zoning District is much lower than the densities allowed in the comprehensive [1:00:00] plan which on all on its own that would probably NE necessitate use of puds it [1:00:06] seems like uh so the numbers that we're seeing uh so this is what's in the [1:00:12] comprehensive plan so you can see those numbers go all the way up to [1:00:19] 100 and 150 in the mixed use districts and then [1:00:28] we calculated densities based on uh minimum lot [1:00:33] sizes for uh the zoning District so you can see um and we brought in the allowances [1:00:40] so the highest one is 17.4 again these are you know these are [1:00:47] all one one project sort of subd districts I guess so it's not that you [1:00:54] know there's a 17 density zoning District easy to use for anybody but it's a senior district and [1:01:02] it's a senior District yeah and with the allowance that does go up to 43 but um [1:01:08] yeah these are much lower we did uh mixed use [1:01:14] also and uh you know those are pretty low and those are the [1:01:20] maximums compared to the comprehensive plan [1:01:28] process question I mean does some cities that you work with change their zoning every 10 years when a new comprehensive [1:01:35] plan comes out yeah I mean yeah it's do most cities do that legally it's [1:01:41] required to do that yeah did you change your zoning every 10 years we haven't done [1:01:48] it if you're changing if you're changing the compant densities yeah and not that [1:01:53] you have to make everything match but in the in theory you need to align [1:01:59] your zoning with your comprehensive plan and in I mean in the metro area the [1:02:05] comprehensive plan over supersedes zoning right so you know somebody comes [1:02:13] in and they see a zoning District that has a low density otherwise what's that [1:02:18] our attorney might say otherwise but I'm confused if this parcel was guided in the comp plan to be uh he [1:02:26] residential we don't rezone this parcel until there's a proposal to turn it into [1:02:33] that use right not necessarily compl can talk [1:02:38] about the timing of when those rezonings will take place so like if we say it's like you know [1:02:44] we we will approve rezonings consistent with the compl you know when a property redevelops it's not that we have to go [1:02:51] in and rezone every property right after we approve the compl do that Mak sense so so our uses align with the exception [1:02:58] of keys the that's what I was yeah so the uses align it's just the [1:03:04] densities that don't but then yeah the issue too is when they do request those rezonings we have nothing to reone it to [1:03:09] other than use a PUD right 100 years ago the Supreme Court case that allowed [1:03:15] zoning to happen in cities said that you had to have a plan so you couldn't just [1:03:21] spot zone so you the city had to have a plan for that and that's how comprehensive plans came about so you [1:03:27] have to have a comprehensive plan and that has to match the zoning or a developer can come in and say it doesn't [1:03:33] match but I can you know the complant says this so I should be able to do that [1:03:40] right yeah so I mean that that's that's what cities are supposed to do not a lot of cities don't do it you know to the N [1:03:48] degree I mean we we worked with a city that we worked with Roseville and we updated their code to match the [1:03:54] comprehensive plan and a lot L of people felt like all the changes happened with the comprehensive plan and so the zoning [1:04:01] went through but in actuality the comp plan was changed like two times ago so [1:04:08] the comp plan had moved over here you know 15 years ago or something and the [1:04:14] zoning was catching up which isn't you know ideal but you [1:04:20] know people felt like it was a new thing that had happened in the city and actually the comp plan had been updated [1:04:25] quite a while ago so so one issue for us is you know we've got in the comprehensive plan the O the office and [1:04:33] residential Zone but we don't have a zoning District that allows both those uses together um so that's where we've [1:04:40] been using the Pud and do they have a right to residential if there's office [1:04:45] there so that's another one we need to yeah to fix whether it's part of this or [1:04:53] the next comprehensive plan yes I think often times we would see a district that permits the office uses and then the [1:05:00] residential would be conditional probably right yeah you know so you'd have standards and there'd be review of [1:05:06] it it wouldn't just be entitled often [1:05:15] times uh but question we don't necessar like [1:05:20] we don't need to wait for a project necessarily to change zoning and I mean that's something things you've done [1:05:26] historically any Dino and then now you have a non-conforming use or [1:05:33] non-conforming I guess type or you I mean that that's kind of what Minneapolis did to all their single [1:05:39] family neighborhoods they just reson them all essentially then it came back [1:05:47] but it's the plan I think it's getting the zoning in line to kind of respond to [1:05:52] what where we want things to go not keeping things the same right right and [1:05:58] I mean resoning I and we don't really we haven't really resed R1 anyway right [1:06:03] even in the comp plain so that most of a din hasn't changed and just because your house was is now zoned R2 you don't have [1:06:11] to tear it down and build a duplex or anything right we still reactive in that [1:06:20] way yeah and some cities do choose um you know I've done code updates where the city say says yep we're going to [1:06:26] rezone everything to the way that it should be based on the comp plan um [1:06:31] definitely not every city chooses to do that some cities say We'll rezone it as a development occurs that happens pretty [1:06:38] regularly but sometimes there is you know cities are saying for one specific [1:06:43] District that there's a lot of attention on maybe it's a specific mixed use District that came out of a comp plan or [1:06:48] something they're saying you know for that area we are going to proactively rezone that to where we want it to be so [1:06:55] there might be some sort of combination um that makes sense free Dino or it might just be kind of how you've already [1:07:01] done it it might depend too on like if we actually wanted to use to continue right um so like one example um [1:07:08] there's a business in the kahill district they do like parking lot striping and so that is zoned industrial [1:07:14] it's permitted industrial use and U but it's guided as part of the 73k Hill Neighborhood known so if we were to [1:07:21] reone that then the existing use would become non-conforming and so if they ever left a new industrial use couldn't [1:07:26] go in there if we if we were to proactively Res Zone it but then but if we did that then it would limit that [1:07:33] business owner's ability to expand that business right and I didn't think in IND Dina you could proactively reone but it [1:07:40] sounds like you can under the comp we could yeah we could it's just a political move at some point well and [1:07:47] all of this goes to yeah I mean creating more better districts means that we [1:07:53] can't treat everything like a special flower which means both city council and planning has to be okay with giving up a [1:08:00] certain amount of control within the parameters that you set abolutely that's [1:08:07] true which is probably why you have all the little puds and the fake puds [1:08:14] and because it was it was an element of control for that specific project on that specific piece of [1:08:21] land yeah so other things that cities can do is they'll allow more uses but [1:08:28] they'll have standards in the code for those uses right so today I would say I [1:08:34] mean we we've started to look at that doesn't seem like the code has very many uses that have standards or conditions [1:08:42] identified ahead of time and sometimes that's hard you don't you don't have to [1:08:47] do it you can say something is a conditional use and then they come in and you know there's those whatever what [1:08:54] are they called the eight criteria or you where you use those but there's not [1:08:59] specific standards and uh one exercise that we've been benefited from was [1:09:05] Wisconsin actually changed the law a few years ago to say you couldn't [1:09:10] have conditional uses unless the conditions were identified up front what are those things and I'm sure [1:09:18] every city in Wisconsin has not changed their code but the one city we were working with took it [1:09:26] seriously and so we rewrote their code and did got rid of almost all [1:09:32] conditional uses and made them permitted with standards so it's a language thing [1:09:37] but they literally were permitted and didn't have to go through a permit process if as long as they met the you [1:09:44] know the standards that were in the code which is a great thing for I mean seems like it's good for everybody but it's [1:09:51] you got to do the work up front then to tell people what you want you know what [1:09:56] what you'll allow so um that's that's what we have [1:10:04] presentation wise so question wise we we're open to any comments or questions or things you think [1:10:11] we're we haven't um brought up but some of the questions we thought of was what [1:10:16] are the concerns about that you have about the current base Zone zoning districts that we haven't hit on um what [1:10:23] are the pros and cons of using puds versus based zoning districts in um Idina other issues with [1:10:31] the usability of the zoning subdivision code from a structural standpoint that maybe we have [1:10:37] missed and then if you have input on on the guidance of the comp plan we have [1:10:43] not read the entire comp plan or anything yet but why not well we love comp [1:10:50] plans yeah so I just kind of open it up or if you can want to hit on certain [1:10:56] things so one thing we're always hammered on about is that you know we have P puds for affordable housing [1:11:04] that's it's like the lever the only lever we can use is what we're told over and that's actually in the code right [1:11:10] right the language yeah do other cities have other ways of handling that or is is because it's hard to get affordable [1:11:17] as you may know it's hard to get affordable housing in the city so it was [1:11:23] it was one lever there I mean I kind of hated p s but it was a nice lever to have so I don't know if other cities are [1:11:29] dealing with that or well yeah so I mean other cities would have a a an R District that [1:11:39] allows affordable housing apartments and the trick is I mean the [1:11:45] challenge you usually run into I think is especially a developed city is is it applied [1:11:51] anywhere that's you know going to actually redevelop because a lot of times there's uh districts that exist [1:11:58] and they allow town houses or apartments but they're only where they exist today so if the city's goal in the comp plan [1:12:05] is to have more tow houses well there's not any land that isn't a townhouse that's not that zoned that so um you [1:12:14] know we worked with a city that we talked about do you expand that District [1:12:19] to say there's areas in the city that could allow those and maybe today there's [1:12:26] single family or something else and those uses are allowed in that District also so it allows a mix of housing [1:12:33] types that's tricky because people don't want to be rezoned [1:12:38] necessarily we have commercial District I mean we've never tried affordable housing in single family zoned areas [1:12:43] have we no we commercial districts where you know nearby neighbors are up in arms [1:12:50] because they don't want affordable housing in a commercial District right so [1:12:56] well some of was like we have zoning that could allow for it just not where we want it to be but PUD offered you [1:13:03] could legally write into it a time frame that obligates it to be affordable for a [1:13:11] certain duration which you don't you can't do in a zoning but it also allows you to wave like parking minimums like [1:13:17] it would be typical for a non-aff no not just in like you can't put a time frame [1:13:23] in PCD like like but a PUD since it's its own that's where the city would say yeah [1:13:30] this has to be affordable for 30 years but you can't have that written in PCD the design standards you know doesn't [1:13:36] have to in the P the PCD code right now I can see it it's in here right [1:13:42] now the time uh the minimum time that something has [1:13:48] to be affordable for is in PCD it's in the PCD 3 yeah which is which project [1:13:54] but isn't that just a spefic Bic project it's not more than just for PCD 3 District where you're asking for a [1:14:00] residential development in the PC and what is the time frame 30 years yeah same thing so [1:14:08] then we haven't tested it yeah we haven't been challenged on it [1:14:14] yet interesting well there we go I just browsing the it happened to be [1:14:20] right in front of me ding ding ding ding yeah we just did that 3 four years ago so one of the con [1:14:29] Us in the Pud is you know we go through the public process and because there's so much difference between the zoning [1:14:35] and the Pud everybody gets upset because it's five times as big as what the zoning code says and and nobody wants [1:14:43] it so so it's hard to kind of get some of those puds through because of all of [1:14:49] the feedback we're getting from and PUD is the tool that we use for the sustain [1:14:55] ility policy because we that for sure we can't mandate in standard [1:15:00] Zone can't we can't Mand can't require can't require building beyond what the [1:15:07] building code allows you to build so you require like solar or [1:15:14] something got it and building codes a minimum we got current situations where [1:15:20] projects don't get they get reson to PUD and they don't get built and then the [1:15:25] landowner is stuck with that very very particular zoning [1:15:32] foru come with another project so that's kind of awkward how does that work in other cities when you when you do a PUD [1:15:39] for a large parcel that's a multi property would have been multiple uh developers um over time right projects [1:15:46] take time like things slightly twe tweak do other cities just have them come back and do amendments to that PUD over time [1:15:53] yeah often we see um a major and a minor amendment process so if it's minor if [1:15:58] something's changing you know you're just shifting the parking a little bit or um the building's getting a little bit bigger or something like that that's [1:16:06] often something that's administrative but if it's a bigger a bigger piece like hey a third of this project is Shifting [1:16:12] to be something else it's just an amendment to the P the standards you mentioned regarding [1:16:19] like conditional like avoiding those like what like can you set certain [1:16:25] standards that speak to some of the things Carrie mentioned about Sustainable Building or design or is [1:16:31] that that's specifically excluded so what type of standards are [1:16:37] we talking about they can be like larger setbacks or [1:16:44] if um I mean I guess we see step backs of if if if there's going to be taller [1:16:49] buildings next to uh shorter houses [1:16:55] that type of okay it's more about the bulk or the massing of the Building architecture or [1:17:02] sometimes it's very very specific to you know if you have a car wash how many how [1:17:07] many stalls can you have washing or sometimes it's very specific to that type of use where you wouldn't have [1:17:14] those standards just throughout your code it only applies to that thing okay or the the but screening yeah we've been [1:17:22] um putting the courtyard Cottage housing type into codes which is the small I don't know if you've seen those but [1:17:28] usually one of the standards is there has to be a shared yard and it needs to [1:17:34] be you know a certain percentage or Dimensions um and that sort of thing [1:17:40] placement of garages could be part of it just a quick question just like uh [1:17:48] structurally right the the the comp plan comes first zoning catches up and then [1:17:55] we do a new comp plan Amendment the comp plan goes forward the zoning catches up so that's kind of the cycle of how [1:18:01] things go and we use the Pud to maybe jump ahead of the zoning to do something [1:18:08] cool right but we tend to overuse it in this situation and that's what gets it [1:18:14] out of whack I'm trying to think about how do we in the future after we update this right would this always be a thing [1:18:21] that we do every couple years or is there a way that we can operate as a commission to not get it out of wh [1:18:29] again well I think if the comprehensive plan is done every 10 years and the [1:18:34] black 10 years yeah so it's not like we're resoning all the time right we're doing that within nine months of [1:18:41] adopting the coun is what state statute says we supposed to we've chosen to not [1:18:48] reone use the Pud to get desired development yeah it's [1:18:56] our tool to get what we want where we want it um and a lot of times the P [1:19:02] allows someone to do something close to the comp plan you know I mean it's rare that there's been something proposed [1:19:09] beyond the densities prescribed in the comp plan but in the last two years the [1:19:17] Pud nothing's come through or nothing's approv you mean uh [1:19:25] we approved a couple but they it's a tough time right now because [1:19:30] of interest rates and yeah other things and get [1:19:41] tonight yeah I think what we've told other cities is in the metro area it's probably good that there's a requirement [1:19:48] I know the cities don't like the requirement of updating the C plan every 10 years but then at least it happened [1:19:55] and some cities I mean this they don't update there's never a comprehensive update of the zoning code every 10 years [1:20:02] I mean nobody's forcing the cities to do that so so it's it's fairly common that they [1:20:09] lag quite a bit if we changed ours every 10 years we probably wouldn't be going through this 40y [1:20:17] year after about 40 years I mean things have changed enough where it probably is [1:20:22] worth doing a full you know a wholesale update I mean we can't writing today we can't [1:20:29] possibly predict what the market and what things are going to be like that far out and so I'm sure that anything we [1:20:36] write today you're not going to cover all the bases of something that's that far out um one of the things that I'm a [1:20:43] really big proponent of um is after you do a big code update to try really hard [1:20:48] to do that annually staff can keep a list of just the housekeeping items maybe things that come up during the [1:20:53] year that they're like you know that doesn't make sense in our code or hey we figured out that that is conflicting um [1:21:00] do that and do that annually just you know whenever it's quiet November January whatever month it is um push [1:21:07] those through because we've done it kind of semiannually yeah well that's great because it it really helps to at least [1:21:14] you know patch your code along further until it's time for a bigger a bigger update where there's more topics that [1:21:20] you need to cover well it seems like there's a lot of maybe simple cleanup yeah you know [1:21:27] like overwhelming amount of simple cleanup and consolidation but it would be nice to [1:21:33] just hear you know as you clean it up more and just offer recommendations of [1:21:39] how other cities did how we can be consistent because it's Al it just also helps someone who moves here from [1:21:45] somewhere else a developer who wants to build something more we can keep things consistent the easier it is for us for [1:21:53] staff for coun for the community really yeah we're hoping to take this [1:22:00] audit into that next step for our next plan for next year to do all these [1:22:07] changes new council at that time maybe maybe [1:22:15] not anyone have other questions comments things you're thinking [1:22:22] of yeah I'm we don't have a whole lot of pcd1 or [1:22:29] pcd2 pcd1 is the small nodes pcd2 is 50th in France and Grand View and aren't [1:22:37] those the only two that have that affordable housing requirement just PCD 3 oh just just Southdale [1:22:44] area 30 years Woodale 7K Hill pcd1 [1:22:55] yeah I guess I'm concerned that we don't have like if we really do go away from [1:23:01] puds we lost a lot of influence a lot being we have to create other category [1:23:08] more nuanced categories than currently exist I think we still want city council [1:23:14] I think we still want to have pey as a tool yeah definitely just not a relying on it for [1:23:22] everything hopefully we have a base zoning District that's closer to what we want so if we are using a PUD you know [1:23:28] if we're looking at granting some flexibility it's at least close to the conventional zoning District versus [1:23:34] right now it's just way off I mean the purpose of zoning is to let people know ahead of time whether [1:23:42] you're a single family homeowner or a business owner what what's guided in the area yeah and we do have the control we [1:23:49] just have to write it into the code yeah you know so like you said it's doing the work upfront to decide what acceptable [1:23:59] not got a lot of work ahe just so I'm clear pcd1 and [1:24:06] pcd2 it's a conditional use uh multif family housing correct but [1:24:13] in PCD 3 it's also a conditional use but in PCD 3 you don't have to have [1:24:21] commercial on the first level and you have to have affordable housing okay thank [1:24:29] you that alone would be helpful to have tables for so you could easily look at [1:24:37] it yeah pretty much SS the whole thing yeah yeah when you find one thing it [1:24:42] usually leads to another question right you got to dig and yeah and so what's the smallest dud [1:24:50] we've done the the yeah I think it's the first one we did the the bitamin shop on 70th [1:24:58] in France that one property the Pud well it's it's it's both corners but yes that [1:25:06] was to get them to not do the parking hair salon place and the Vitamin Shop those two [1:25:12] corners yeah it was focus on the [1:25:19] word they wanted the parking in front and it was a negotiation to [1:25:25] design it right because they're originally designed for like a single developer having [1:25:32] different kinds actually literally different kinds of uses in the same you know like a Disney Disney World sort of [1:25:39] thing or whatever where you would have yeah literal different uses and now we're just using them to to what we want [1:25:47] right now yeah we could have a minimum L size for for PD you know not even [1:25:53] consider it if it's less many cities do yeah [1:25:59] also yeah because as soon as you set that standard now someone's going to come in at four acres and it's not five [1:26:06] but they got this great idea and anyway yeah we haven't looked to be fair we haven't looked at your [1:26:12] PUD yet I mean we will in the next month but in other cities you can see the Pud [1:26:17] is clearly set up for single family and maybe other types of housing [1:26:24] but mainly single family and how that lays out or like you said bigger mixed [1:26:30] developments but the standards don't really work for multif family buildings [1:26:36] very well in other cities and again we haven't looked at yours may years is better no yeah we don't have slot sizee [1:26:44] standards or we just kind of what we're trying to achieve yeah or sometimes they'll have a big [1:26:53] open space component to them because it's a big development and a multif family [1:26:58] developer it's just a deal breaker because they don't you know they can't the financing doesn't work to have that [1:27:05] much open space maybe this is too much in the [1:27:10] weeds but I think some of the most common things we see that I'm just like rolling my eyes at you know like when [1:27:17] there's a a lot that was originally two lots and it was merged into a single lot and they want to split it and they can't [1:27:23] by rights is that something cities normally allow by right or it's it can be [1:27:30] administrative right it's often either administrative or it's a minor subdivision and it has a shorted [1:27:37] process okay yeah we yeah we have to go through the full no public that's and we [1:27:43] pretty regularly deny those and once they combine them that raises the [1:27:49] median so combines like the median goes up but never go down oh yeah you know so [1:27:56] that's a problem too and then like in my neighborhood I live on the east side you could tell um and Corner Lots there [1:28:03] because because setbacks for single family homes were set up for wested din there were large odd-sized lots and [1:28:09] everything and we have very regular but very narrow Lots you know you it's like 11 feet wide is the buildable space or [1:28:16] something on Corner Lots because the setbacks are so high or whatever so I think that's something we [1:28:24] back and well you can go down to 2015 with a [1:28:29] garage but it to lose point this the build of you can't build anything without a [1:28:38] variance here what's the history of our height overlay districts I never what do [1:28:44] the deal with that it came from the 2008 comprehensive plan um it was originated [1:28:52] when the Weston was built and there was a lot of uproar over the height of that building so when the 2008 comp plan came [1:29:01] to be the council said we need to put height limits in the comprehensive plan you usually don't have height limits [1:29:07] it's a zoning function but um they wanted to do that and the Planning Commission made the recommendation but [1:29:13] the city council at that time um lowered them [1:29:19] quite a bit it was really just the city council sitting around this table deciding what they should be and a lot [1:29:25] of it was based on existing Heights within those areas existing building [1:29:32] height and where does one find a map of these if you just Google it it's online [1:29:38] is it okay it's on our website um but if you the easiest way is just to Google um [1:29:44] Building height overlay So based on what was established [1:29:49] in that 2008 comprehensive plan we did the zoning overlay [1:29:55] map this was adopted into the code to match the comp plan so at that time and [1:30:01] that's part of the reason between 2008 and 2018 we did like 27 comprehensive [1:30:08] plan amendments most of them were because of the height was in the comp [1:30:14] plan oh wow yeah met counil didn't like that approach so is this an opportunity to [1:30:21] get rid of these and incorporate them in the zone or well it's in the zoning now yeah but it's out of the comprehensive [1:30:28] plan so when you want to go above the zoning height overlay District it's just [1:30:34] a variance or flexibility through the Pud it's not a comprehensive plan [1:30:40] Amendment but to your point I do think there's an opportunity to because that would be a simplification I think so I [1:30:47] think so but well except that we have like you know like a something zoned [1:30:52] office in like the Hill district like on the east side there by 100 metro right like we allow more height there than we [1:30:58] do for a parcel zoned office in Grand so that's why it's different there's [1:31:04] multiple zoning districts within the overlays right I get it I see otherwise you'd [1:31:12] have to have okay I mean typically that's what you see in other cities and like yeah like we have certain defined [1:31:20] small areas you know districts and usually that's where you'll see your [1:31:26] overlay district and do our like do ours stack up with others or is there a way [1:31:32] to improve those just like from what you're describing too because I mean that's usually what we face is like [1:31:39] trying to apply the same standard from one to the other are you talking about the overlay yeah like [1:31:45] geograph well not even just height but the geographic overlay like there might be extra [1:31:51] Provisions or allowance yeah right per [1:31:59] are so I mean how clean is ours compar does say others like is there opportunities to improve from what [1:32:05] you've seen it's I our our overlay is cleaner than it used to be the way [1:32:11] height was regulated in the past was if say you had a 20 story building you had [1:32:19] to be set back from the lot lines equal to the height of that building so the idea was really Southdale was the [1:32:26] only place you could build a tall building with our overlay districts I [1:32:31] mean is a primarily height that's in there that's so there's no other [1:32:37] Provisions in the overlay districts that seems uncommon from what I've seen from other cities where there [1:32:45] might be more requirements for say biking but then you get relief you know for bike parking you know then that [1:32:51] allows you to kind of calibrate each of those overlay districts to the small [1:32:57] areas one thing we talked about was there's um reference in the code to the greater Southdale District but we don't [1:33:03] actually have a zoning District that's called that so like an overlay would be one way to do because we have different [1:33:09] setback standards for the greater Southdale district and we know that's just the area that the small area plan [1:33:14] was done for but really that should be in the zoning C and there should probably be an overlay so that we talked [1:33:20] about this at the last we' talked about yeah so I've got that set up in the draft ordinance that has a map that [1:33:27] shows what that district is and then we were going to do the you know the 20 foot first floor in an overlay just [1:33:35] within the Southdale District so we're creating another another overlay District yeah I [1:33:41] mean we we're fully developed so we we kind of have our like identified areas and maybe more you know from you know [1:33:49] the stuff you're working on um you know the areas of potential change [1:33:54] but I've seen like I I know Minneapolis has it and seems very clean from like the university area to this to this and [1:34:01] each of them has their own set of standards and things that go above and [1:34:06] beyond the base zoning but it make it easy it makes it easy to follow in track [1:34:11] right it's like here's the zoning here but then you cross into that now all of a sudden like your R1 might allow R2 or [1:34:18] R3 cuz you're right there or whatever yeah it's seems like the the [1:34:24] use of the puds and then the the old plan districts makes that more challenging [1:34:31] yeah does to sort [1:34:37] through good [1:34:43] luck for huh is he going to do a photo or something yeah we have our photo in 5 [1:34:51] minutes where are we thanks thanks for the time