You're kind of a big deal. Don't you know? >> Yeah. >> It's one week and then you know. >> Yeah. >> Does your hand get tired from signing autographs? >> What's that? >> Does your hand get tired from signing autographs? >> Oh, never. Never. Mayor, >> you could go ahead whenever you're ready. >> Okay. All right, I'm going to call this evening's uh Lake Elmo City Council workshop on this Tuesday, September 8th. Uh the first item on our agenda is a presentation from Washington County on the Casaw 10 17 County Road 17B intersection improvements. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'm just going to take a moment here to uh introduce the project manager Aaron Bllock with Washington County. With her also is Andrea Ram. Uh they've been leading the project at the intersection of um Cassat 10 which is 10 Street North and Kas 17 which is Lake No Elementary School. Um this project kicked off uh May of 2025. The county has been working through uh a comprehensive agency and public engagement process uh to work towards acceptance um and meet a number of goals on on both the county and city level. At this point, uh the county has developed a preferred design alternative for presentation this evening and um they're going to to share that information. But then I I do want to just uh make a statement here that we're looking for um some direction here at the the close of the discussion. That is whether council Thank you so much. whether council is comfortable uh with the county coming back for uh seeking a resolution of support later this fall uh to kick off final design for the project. So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Aaron. >> Thank you. Good evening, Mr. Mayor, members of the council. Thank you, Nate. Um as mentioned, I'm Erin. I'm here with Andrea and we're also joined by Washington County Commissioner for District 3 um Commissioner Cox in the audience in the very bright orange color this evening. Um we're excited to discuss this project. We can dive in. Our plan is to provide some background information about the project, review the project process and big picture schedule, discuss our staff recommended preferred alternative concept with respective costs, and then wrap up with next steps and open it up for any questions and comments that the council has. It's probably safe to assume that we're all aware that Stillwater School District has just finished constructing the new Lake Elmo Elementary School location in the northwest quadrant of 10th Street and Lake Elmo Avenue, which is along our Washington County Transportation System. 10th Street is County Highway 10 and Lake Elmo Avenue is County Highway 17 and County Road 17B. So, as the school development got on the county's radar, our team programmed an improvement project to this intersection, not just to accommodate the school traffic, but also to look at how the intersection will operate in the long term beyond school opening. Our team was able to program this potential intersection improvement project to the intersection of 10th Street and Lakeome Avenue for 2028 construction. A couple noteworthy considerations that make this project area unique include that Washington County owns and operates the Central Greenway Regional Trail, which connects Cottage Grove Ravine Regional Park to the Lake Elmo Park Reserve. The Simmeron Park community in the southeast quadrant of the intersection is a unique facet within Lake Elmo. Many residents reside in the Simmeran Park community and there's also multiple popular local businesses including a gas station, food truck, liquor store, and golf course. Family Means, a local nonprofit organization, provides extensive youth programming within this community as well. As you're aware, the project area has experienced significant changes since this project started early last year. As Nate alluded to, up until recently, the intersection of 10th Street and Lake Elmo Avenue was controlled by an allway stop condition, which has since changed to a traffic signal control. We appreciate the city's partnership in coordinating the school's development approval process to ensure that the county's transportation system would operate well when school started at the new elementary school location. This coordination effort included additional turn lanes and two new traffic signal systems near the school. One at the main school entrance off of 10th Street and one at our focus intersection. This intersection has been on the county's radar due to the growing community. The city of Lake Elmo has been one of our fastest growing communities and one of the fastest growing metro counties with new destinations of all types and in an area commonly used as a reliever to Interstate 94 traffic. This intersection was busy before a school was in the picture. Now that the commuter traffic patterns are combined with the school traffic, our project team has taken a closer look at traffic operations to inform potential improvements via the upcoming capital project. So the project goals essentially boil down to responsibly optimizing traffic flow in this area, improving safety for all users, and constructing new off-road pedestrian facilities. In terms of the anticipated project schedule, the county is ultimately planning for the recommended improvements to be built in 2028. Our project team initiated preliminary design and community outreach phase last spring. Now that school is started this fall, as shown with the red apple icon, the community is adjusting to the new traffic operation of the intersection in nearby school access points. We'll cover the remaining project milestones after the apple to ultimately get us to 2028 construction in the following slides. Now, we'll pivot to reviewing what community engagement activities were facilitated and what input was received from the public and project stakeholders. So, Washington County's approach to transportation improvement projects include three phases. first where we have a blank map style event where we actually reverse roles with the public to seek input on opportunities in the project area as we're getting up to speed with the surrounding area. For example, at our first open house, we heard a lot of personal experiences about near miss crashes at the intersection, which would be metrics that our team can't necessarily gather ourselves since no crash actually occurred and therefore no crash report was formally documented. It's been important to our team to engage the Simmeron community deliberately to ensure that all community members voices had opportunities for input. So this looked like a pop-up event at their first or at the farmers market in July of last year paired with our first public openhouse event. The most consistent themes we heard from public engaa engagement during phase one were concerns with speeding on both the 10th street and lakemo avenue corridors and the desire for more off-road bike and pedestrian facilities to nearby destinations such as parks and businesses. Next, for our second phase of engagement, we study and recommend multiple options that meet our project goals. For this intersection, our team presented an optimized traffic signal concept and a roundabout concept as our options. These concepts generated discussion about access opportunities such as difficulty turning into and out of Simmeron side streets during different parts of the day and how non-motorized users would cross the different intersection types. Same as during phase one, we did gather explicit feedback from the Simmeron community during this phase by attending one of their community meetings held at the park office. The majority of the feedback received at that event was about school transportation. At this time, we also met with representatives from the school district to understand their preferences. The school district team did support both concepts shown to the public and both agencies are committed to prioritizing safety at this new school location regardless of the option brought forward. For phase three, we brought everything we'd heard back to the drawing board, and our team recommends a single option, which we believe best addresses the project goals and opportunities in this area. We received unanimously positive feedback for a roundabout concept during the third open house. When attending that third Simon pair event, which was back at the Simmeron Farmers Market last month, we received reiterated concerns about speed mitigation, but general posit positive feedback about the roundabout. With that, drum roll. Our project team is recommending the roundabout concept as the preferred alternative. I'm hoping to guide us through some of the bullets on the screen there to identify the listed improvements. So, starting off in the middle of the intersection, I guess I should start by saying north is up on this screen. So, obviously the new school is shown there um in the northwest. Simmeron would be in the southeast. We've labeled the two Simron side streets as Simron North um which is in the east leg of the intersection and then Simon West which is in the south leg of the intersection. The gas station, liquor store, golf course is just off the screen there. So the current traffic signal system that's now out there today at 10th Street in Lake Elmo Avenue would be removed with this concept. The traffic signal system that's not shown off the screen to the west um at the main school entrance would remain. A single lane roundabout would be constructed at the intersection which would include new pedestrian facilities that are off-road aka not on the shoulders as they are today which will provide pedestrian connectivity between Simmeron Lake Elma Elementary School and the Tartan Meadows neighborhood. There are some access management opportunities with this concept. So, two of the three Simron access points both that we can see in the graphic um are very close to the intersection. They don't actually meet county intersection spacing guidelines. So, we reached out to m multiple stakeholders in this area. the Simmeron businesses, um the park leadership, their residents to understand how residents, visitors and businesses um are using the Simmeron network of road system. So, with all of that information, um, our team is recommending that the Simmeron Street, basically between the food truck and the community farm, what's labeled as Simmeron North here on the graphic, gets converted to an in only with this concept, which would only allow vehicles to come into Simmeron. So, essentially an eastbound to southbound movement from the west. So, although this seems like a big change, the roundabout presents a great U-turn opportunity for folks that want to go in a different direction. Um, and so combined with the Simmeron Street between the gas station and the golf course, which is labeled as Simmeron West here, um, that's planned to remain a full access intersection, which is what it is today. Um, we believe that, um, the residents and the visitors to this area will adjust. I'd also like to draw attention to the no left turn up on the north leg of the intersection there. It's a 90°ree rotated no- left turn. Um, that is certainly a draft portion of our concept. Um, more engagement is needed. Right now it's indicating that um that secondary residential access would not be able to turn left out of their driveway. Certainly um more detailed coordination needed there. Other improvements include raised medians um throughout the concept to calm traffic and slow traffic to resist and also restrict unsafe traffic movements. And lastly, a new storm sewer system would be installed to treat storm water and replacing of signing and pavement markings as needed. So to elaborate on how this concept addresses the community feedback we received throughout our activities, first roundabouts offer pedestrians much lower traffic speeds. So that means better sight lines, much shorter crossing distances, and less waiting time before folks are able to cross, putting pedestrians in greater control of their safety. Second, we do know some people are not stopping at the intersection when it was an allway stop or are coming up on what's now the traffic signal too fast. And so the roundabout geometry will require drivers to slow down. And not truly lastly, but the last one that's up on the screen. Um, our extensive traffic modeling indicates that traffic operations would work well for this area into the future. So, based on our preliminary design, total project costs including engineering, acquisition of any right ofway, and construction, it's estimated between five and $6 million. The city of Lake Elmo's costs in the projects have been calculated in accordance with Washington County's cost participation policy. And so based on the current design, the city costs are estimated to be approximately 10% of that total project cost. And these estimates will be refined as design progresses. Our next steps include further engagement with the community to roll out the recommended design. We are preparing detailed design documents and acquisition of necessary right ofway. We would ask, as Nate alluded to, we would ask that city of Lake Elmo considers a formal resolution of support at a future meeting which would provide city approval of the project team continuing into the next project phase. And then lastly, we just wanted to note that we will be back in front of council in early 2028 to obtain approval of our formal project agreements before the county would hire a contractor to build the project in 2028. With that, Mr. Mayor Nate, we'd be happy to answer any questions. >> Any any questions for Miss Bllelock? Will the council member Dragus >> county be doing the engineering on this? Will this be subcontracted out? >> Mr. Mayor, members of the council, um the county has hired a design consultant um for preliminary design and then we plan to resolicit for a final design consultant. >> Council member Holtz, in terms of projections on traffic, how far out are those based upon? >> Mr. mayor, members of the council. Um, generally for a roundabout design, Mindot, so across the state would require we look 10 years out. The county tries to be conservative and so we try to look 20 years out as well. And then right size, you know, there's a possibility then that you're overbuilding according to the state. Um, so trying to find the the right size between that 10-year lookout and the 20-year lookout. And I assume the rightway is built is being taken in the amount that's necessary for when a bill needs to occur in 20 or 30 years. Like that's being done now on the front end. >> Mr. Mayor, members of the council, um yes, there's no construction improvements that would prelude any expansion of um the potential roundabout size. And then in terms of the cost shares at 10% based upon the county formula or based upon knowing things that the city is responsible for at this point >> because these are both count these are both county roads. We don't have any property there. The school already set aside the right ofway on the northwest corner. >> Mr. Mayor, members of the council, I believe it's both parts of your question. Um essentially for um the different pieces of our project costs. So for design, the city would pay for their proportional cost of the project. So it's just a percentage, which right now is hovering around 10. Um, for right of way, the city would pay, according to our cost policy, the city pays 55%, we pay 45%. And then for construction, it's actually itemized. And so I believe the only pieces of um our cost policy that apply to this construction are the new trails that are going in that we are splitting 50/50 with the city and the county. Um so that's where that 10% number is coming from. >> And then how much of those trails are also multi-trail uses that specifically serve students? >> Mr. mayor, members of the council, all of this will be public infrastructure in public right of way. >> May I'll rephrase because there's different directions. What's going to be the preferred route for students, especially from Simmeron, to go there? Is it going to be because there's different you can go north and then or you can go west and then north? Is there a preferred route to say, look, this is the better of the two options? And I asked that because if there's going to be a city share for this and a county share, obviously we know the district is going to be trying to attain the federal safe to school grants, I assume the grant will want to know, well, which of these trails is the preferred route for schools so it can identify how to apply the the grant. >> Mr. Mayor, members of the council, um, from the county's perspective, all four legs would be a safe crossing. So, I don't think that the county is in a position to designate which pieces of it would be the school crossing. I think in coordination with the school's transportation system, maybe they'd identify a route for walking versus biking. But from our perspective, all of the infrastructure should be able to use be able to be used by all users. >> Something for the district to consider. >> Miss Block, just a question more because I I haven't really dealt with it previously. So are you are you very familiar with the safe routes to school program with trail making that they have grants for I think somewhat. Yes. >> Yes. Traditionally, after the construction's done, then you apply for a grant to and I don't know if the school district has talked with the county about that possibility tagging on some extension of this after that point, but I'm just throwing it out there, I guess, for >> for thought and because that that'll come after the project's done, I think. >> Mr. Mayor, members of the council, um Nate, feel free if you want to chime in here, but we certainly have talked about that. Generally, the county itself does not apply for those types of grant. We certainly apply for grants, um but not necessarily the safe routes of school system. A lot of times we end up being a sponsor for either a city or a school district who would apply. Um it's my understanding that the county is very willing and able to be in that position um for additional improvements in this area. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor. Uh just to expand on that a little bit, uh typically the count or I'm sorry, the school district will be the applicant. They'll they'll come to the road authority. In this case, it will be >> it would be the county. Um but we would also be a a party that they'd be looking for support from >> and the the application would be based on what the school's asking for. So, um, they will be the ones kind of like looking at, you know, getting the feedback and, okay, you know, this is where we have like a high number of walkers that we anticipate coming from. This is where we could see the improvement benefiting us the most. >> So, whether that's tying in Oakland Junior High or tying further on north on Lake Elmo Avenue to the the Royal additions in there for kids that are walking to school >> in that arena. That would that that would be where that would apply, >> Mr. Mayor? Yes. Um, basically the design is set up right now so that there's a leg plugging out to each end of the roundabout. So an extension would be just picking that leg up regardless of direction. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Anything council member? >> Nothing. >> No. Yes. Council >> question. Since these are both county highways, I'm confused why the city share the rightway is 55%. Since this the county rightway, we don't own it. >> Mr. Mayor, members of the council, um >> I'm unable to speak to the genesis of the policy, but that's just it is what it is. It's that 4555 every time. I'm happy to hunt down that answer for you and I can certainly send you the policy. >> Um but yes, it's always that 4555. >> It seems confusing as all >> understood. >> I think that's it. I I I do think that Yeah. I mean, based on what we've heard, I I haven't heard any real concerns. We certainly thank the county for all their work on this in short notice given the school wanted to put a school in that location and and changed a lot of the dynamics revolving around that intersection. And um certainly I think you'll find support from the city on proceeding to to final design when you want to come back in in the fall. >> Thank you. >> I think that's the general sense I'm feeling. Yeah, >> I had no questions, but I agree with this. It looks like a great plan. Well thought out. >> Yes, get it done. >> Mr. Mayor, members of the council, thank you for your comments. It is kind of strange without having a formal action this evening. Um, but yeah, we'll work with Nate um if we want to come back or if that goes on your consent calendar, whatever you guys are using. >> Consent would probably work just fine. >> Yep. >> Great. >> Not to take up more of your time and we've run through it. It was a great presentation. Thank you very much. I thought Nate said he was going to cover this from his personal checking account, wasn't it, Nate? >> Oh, boy. I, you know, um, >> there's a lot of zeros. >> There's a lot of zeros there. >> And item three. So, we're going to go. >> Thanks. We'll give you time to >> leave before we uh we're going to segue into Lake Elmo Prosecution Services. Got to move a couple chairs around. >> Do you need it or not? >> Not yet, but much better. All right. Um Mr. Mayor, members of the council, uh tonight we have um some members from our prosecution um services here from Ecber Lamers. They're here to go over their services that they provide to the city, kind of the trends they've seen in our numbers. Um, and then at the end, staff's going to be asking for um some direction from council on if you want to give us direction to go ahead and start renegotiating um a contract with them or if you prefer a different um alternative. The current contract is a five-year contract that we have right now and it expires December 31st of this year. So, we thought it'd be a good time to bring them in, get a little recap on what they do for the city and then see what direction we should go from there. can take it away. >> Thank you. Uh, Mr. Mayor, members of the council, good evening. My name is Joe Vantoi and I am one of your city prosecutors. >> Good evening, Alexis and I'm also one of your prosecutors. >> We appreciate the opportunity to come out. Um, as I indicated before, we were outed as the attorneys by the ties and I apologize. We're going to do the attorney thing and we promise we won't talk for more than 45 50 minutes if that's uh that's a joke. It's a bad lawyer joke. Um, but we are I do think it's a good opportunity to come out as uh city administrator Miller indicated. Contracts, we stay on top of them. We want to make sure we're providing the service that we promise to you when you hire us to do the work. We've been your prosecutor since 2016. It's important to us to have the opportunity to come out and speak to you about what those services are, what it takes on our end to do it, and then also give you uh kind of an inside perspective on uh what your numbers are, your your loose numbers especially. It's probably great timing talking about some traffic related items on tonight's menu to talk about some of the things that we're seeing in court, some of the things that it takes uh to meet those challenges in court. So, uh, our prosecution services scope. I think it's always a good idea because I've done this for long enough that every time I think everybody knows exactly what a prosecutor is, there's always a question and I assume everyone here has a decent idea, but I think it's a good idea to give that approach um, or that perspective. High level. One of the things that our firm takes very serious is we represent a lot of cities and a lot of municipalities in the Washington County area. It's very important to know that our firm motto, our firm mission, I should call it a motto, it's like a tattoo. It's a mission. It's a goal. It's a passion, is to build and strengthen communities. Something we take very, very seriously. And as your city prosecutor, you might be thinking, well, how do you build and strengthen communities when you're prosecuting people and putting them in jail and that type of thing? And and it's a lot more than just that. We recognize that when we go to court, we may be the first and only member of city so-called government that your citizen or the person in your community encounters. So, we take that authority very, very seriously. It means being respectful, being professional, being on time, being accountable for our actions, and making sure that we're doing everything justly and constitutionally. So, we take that very serious because the second piece is we recognize that our ability to come say we build and strengthen communities comes from the city. It comes from the city's authority hiring us as your prosecutor. And we take that very serious. To do that, our prosecution services scope, what we cover when we go to court is your petty misdemeanor. This includes most traffic offenses. There are some juveniles under the age of 18, 16, and 18 that we do prosecute petty misdemeanor traffic offenses for. Your misdemeanor offenses. This is your first level of criminal activity. So, your low-level thefts or traffic crimes or DWIs or assault type crimes and then your more serious gross misdemeanor DWIS offenses. Um, those are the types of cases that people are starting to look at significant jail time or programming or probation. So, what that doesn't include most juvenile offenses and then some statutoily assigned gross misdemeanor offenses that the county handles for a variety of reasons. Other than that, 80% of your case load, your criminal activity in any given city is coming through your city prosecutor. Uh the rest is the county. That's just that's pretty true statewide. That's how it happens. Most of it, thankfully, is lower level um offenses. So, your criminal prosecution workflow, and this goes really quick, and it's going to look like a lot of words, but it hopefully makes sense. Um, the way cases come to us is either an officer is issuing a citation or it's being submitted to us for a criminal complaint. From there, our legal team opens an electronic file. And yes, we have had electronic files for a very long time. Surprisingly, there are still some lawyers who wheel a cart into court. Come down to Washington County and see it sometime for yourself if you don't believe me. Um, one we once we get that file open, we review and request reports or evidence. We make sure that we're disclosing it, but before that, we're making sure that we're running a conflicts check. That's for victims. That's for we have one of our cities has is a victim of a crime. The parent is on the council. Well, that's a conflict for us. So, we make sure we refer that out at no cost to the city. Uh complaint is drafted within timelines, meaning somebody is getting charged in the constitutional timelines that is required by state and federal law. evidence is processed and disclosed uh to the defendant and the defense. And then once we go to court, this is where the prosecutors, not just our legal team, your prosecutor starts reviewing the evidence, identifying potential issues, identifying witnesses, determining if it's better to resolve the case via a plea or anticipating some sort of challenge in court. And it looks a lot like that. It comes in at an arraignment stage, goes to the next few hearings. They all kind of sound fancy. Omnibus, evidentiary, contested, motion hearings. It's a lot of sorting out the evidence issues and then once we uh if we haven't resolved it, we get to a jury trial or court trial and sentencing. That's kind of the pro the the workflow it goes through. Um probation violations, appeals, and expungements are also things that not technically criminal, but still fall on your criminal prosecutor's plate. Those are all things we routinely handle. your prosecution team. Uh this is something we've worked on for a very long time to build a pro a practice area that we are full-time prosecutors. We are not prosecutors who do a little defense work. We're not prosecutors who do a little estate planning. We are full-time prosecutors. Uh we're in an age and era where we want specialists in just about everywhere we work. Same should be true in criminal law. We are literally taking people's freedom on occasion. We are authorizing the court to do something to that person's liberty. You should be an expert in what you do. So, we have six full-time prosecutors. Two backup prosecutors. I say that because uh we have one person who truly works part-time, but she is a full-time prosecutor. And the other person is uh he's the old guy in the group and he's retiring. So, he says I can say that uh he is a backup prosecutor filling in when somebody's taking a case to trial, on vacation, doing a training, something like that. Our staff is eight legal assistants along with five that have dedicated dedicated victim witness coordinators. That's really important. That piece one of our our core values as prosecutors is being victimentric. That means if you are a victim of a crash, you are going to get a letter from us that says you have been identified as a victim of a crime. You have these rights. Please contact us immediately. If you are a victim of domestic abuse, one of the biggest challenges in domestic abuse prosecution is keeping a victim engaged in the process for a variety of reasons, good, bad, cynical, and otherwise, people fall away from the court system. Having a prosecution team early on that brings people into the fold, keeps them engaged, you're going to get much better outcomes in that prosecution at the end of the day. So, we take that very seriously. Now, obviously, that looks like a lot of numbers and a lot of people. That's not all the city of Lake Elmo. We prosecuted a pretty high volume, but those are people and staff members that are available to the city's cases, which I'll explain shortly. We do still use law clerks. Uh not everything's AI. I am uh very paranoid about AI. It does get used in the law and in the courouses sometimes, but not before our lawyers check it. We don't use it, but we know that others do. Um, if anyone has ever dealt with a prosay person, otherwise known as an unrepresented person, you will have encountered AI drafted law. So, we have to be very savvy to look through it and make sure that it's all accurate. Make sure that they're not citing something because they do make up cases. AI hallucinates it and all that. So, we do still employ two live law students as law clerks. Um, and then we have electronic case management systems. Uh this is a part uh Alexis can speak to as well, but our prosecutors are not just go to court, try cases, although that's a big part of what we do. Your prosecutors, we've taken it very serious to be subject matter experts in adjacent fields. Uh me personally, I have been very involved in the extreme risk protection order, gun violence prevention, uh part of the law that's now very new in Minnesota. It's a very hot button topic right now, especially with what happened last week in Minneapolis. That's by virtue of the fact that lots of my cities are encountering these questions. What do we do about people that we've identified as a danger? That's where I've come in and I've I've uh worked with a lot of departments on that. Alexis has a background and a lot of others that she can speak to as well. >> Yeah, as Joe mentioned, our team is all full-time prosecutors. It's important to have that specialty, but we all have areas of practice that we're especially passionate about or involved in. So, even within our full-time prosecutors, we have different areas that we um have expertise in. In particular, Joe's being firearms. I'm currently the chair of Standpoint. That's a statewide um domestic abuse sexual assault nonprofit that provides legal services across the state of Minnesota um for free. I also serve on the DWI task force that's made up of um representatives from all sorts of different state and local agencies across the state of Minnesota as well. Joe doing the firearms where all all six of our full full-time members are involved. And that's part of how we build and strengthening the community, not only locally to the city of Lake Elmo, but our legal community, making sure that we are first in the know. We know what's going up to the legislature. We know what changes are coming um so that we can bring that back to the cities that we represent, make sure that we're um bringing that forward in court and representing accurately that information as well as bringing that to law enforcement and training them on that as well. It really does come back to making sure we've got people with the passion and the experience in each role. So whether it's a victim witness coordinator, a legal assistant, uh your prosecutor in court that day, we have a very good understanding of all of those things based on our own personal professional, I should say, um experience and expertise. So your law enforcement team, you probably already know this, but Tai Jacobson, Sergeant Jacobson is your lead assigned deputy um to this group. There's also eight deputies that are assigned to patrol and response in this area um in Lake Elmo. So, um, we've trained law enforcement throughout the state, but in particular throughout Washington County, um, routinely either by virtue of our ask your ask your prosecutor newsletter where we take a topic, we take questions, we answer it, we distribute it out to all of our agencies. Um, when there's case law updates or law changes, we make sure that goes out so that they have a good understanding of what the requirements of the law are. or by in-person trainings where we do we do mock trial uh with officers, new officers especially who've never testified. We think it's really important that they come get cross-examined before they're in court on some felony serious case. Come work with your city prosecutor and get some exper experience on it. So these are your tax dollars. I mean these are your state court administrator data numbers. That's a tax joke, guys. Um we contacted the state court administrator's office. um to get the numbers for the last five years just broken down by case types prosecuted by your city your city prosecutor. This doesn't include county attorney cases. So it's it's interesting to me at first glance to see this that in 2021 there's kind of es and flows up down you know 21 and 22 maybe still pandemic type related. everywhere saw cases go down generally except traffic which went up everywhere statewide. I'm unhappy to report. Everyone drove crazy during the pandemic and that's continued. Um but it kind of bounced back up and it's continued this uh steady climb. So in last year the cases you know it was 300 some more cases. I don't know if I matched right there but close enough. uh cases have increased. And when we pull out kind of a snapshot here, this is from your Washington County Sheriff's Office. It's tough to see on the screen, but large majority of those are what I would call third 36 or 36 adjacent type traffic stops. So, as we'll see in a later slide, it's largely traffic. Traffic has gone up. So, that's the good news. Uh a lot of serious crime or person crimes are down, which is good statewide. Um, but your traffic crimes increase and that tends to go handinhand with population or development. You tend to see more cars, you tend to see more traffic. Um, on the heels of the previous presentation, when you start talking about traffic changes, whether it be construction projects, changing speed limits, you you just do see more traffic type cases come through. So, um, we pulled our own numbers, too, because I I, you know, I like the state court administrator's numbers, but I like to see kind of a snapshot to test what we're seeing here. Um, 21 domestic assault related cases opened in 2025. 47 impaired driving related files were opened. Um, and so that kind of matches what we saw. Your petty misdemeanor, your traffic offenses mostly, um, a large majority of the cases are traffic related. that that goes for a lot of the increase. So, trends and takeaways. Uh obviously, we've seen a significant increase, I would say, in traffic cases. 300 more cases um with traffic. Many of them tend to be payable. Um unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, traffic cases tends to be the one that are more court intensive. There's a lot of law um that's developed over the ability for an officer to stop a vehicle. So people find every reason to say, "Hey, that cop didn't have a reason to stop me. Let me fight about it." So you might see more court trials. You might see more traffic stops on or challenges on a misdemeanor type case. Um, that's just how it is. There aren't as many evidentiary challenges to make on a non-tra case for better or worse. Um, and explaining that there. Uh, population growth. I don't I didn't bring numbers on the population growth, but you those are the two things you just tend to see. When there's a lot of retail development, you see a lot of thefts. Go to any Walmart, you'll we all know who each community has a Walmart, you're going to see more retail crime. You have denser population or residential population, you see more person crimes or domestic violence, things like that. You have more highways, you have more people, you have more traffic. And that's just kind of anecdotally what we've seen throughout our communities, but um it certainly looks like that over the last five years for whatever we make of that, but we've seen a lot of more traffic cases. Um and as we discussed, the potential is continued increase, at least in traffic cases. Traffic cases tend to be lower stakes, but they also, you know, tend to take up more of the court's time when in the middle of a calendar, you got an officer coming to court to have a court trial that's going to take a half hour. I think Alexis had one yesterday and that's just kind of how it goes. So, um, going forward, what we do is we are always looking for ways to make sure that we have the right people in the right places doing the right job. So, if we have a prosecutor who uh is especially passionate about DWI or traffic enforcement, they're going to be doing some sort of training or outreach to our officers to make sure that they officers have the best advice that they can get from their city attorney. Um, Washington County has a hearing officer program. This is a this is a very good thing. Um, hearing officers are people that get specific guidelines from your prosecutor on a very narrow set of cases that might otherwise take up a spot on a court calendar and then they get to uh resolve the case if possible and if the person doesn't want to, they can still go to court. This tends to see to go coincide with an increase in fine revenue and also a decrease in court time. So, it's a very good thing. Um, I think all of your cities now in Washington County utilize the hearing officer, which wasn't always the case, but um, it's a pretty important program. They are actually judicial officers. It's not just somebody off the street. So, um, and remaining victim centric by early engagement. That's that's just what we do for any city we work with is making sure we're pulling the victims in on an early uh, basis. Treating people fairly. Uh, you know, misdemeanor, gross misdemeanor aren't always the most serious type cases depending on the charge, but it's really important that we represent the city best face forward, professional, responsible, accountable, all of those things that you would want or you would expect of a city official. That's something that we make sure we do. Um, and then maintaining our relationship with law enforcement. We couldn't do what we do without the trust of a law enforcement team. And so that means working with the deputies to stay on top of um what they need from us, what we need from them. Um it goes a long way. So it wasn't 45 minutes. I apologize, but happy to take any questions. Um at the end of this, uh city administrator Miller had indicated kind of where we're at. This is what we do. We're full-time prosecutors and we're happy to continue serving the city. Um so happy to answer any questions. Thank you. Any questions from councel? >> That 4% increase that's from our previous contract 5 years ago. >> Is that correct? >> Oh, >> sorry. I guess this is more for city administrator maybe. >> No, that is not. That is what we put in the budget for 27. And so if we are given direction to negotiate a new contract with Eber and Lamers, I'm confident that we can um >> that we'll be in that 4% range. >> Our last contract over five years I believe maybe two and a half% increase each year. >> Okay. Council member Boltz. I I just want to offer I appreciate the victim centric approach on that as well because I I know there are firms that out there that you know whether they do it or not, who knows? But it's not clarified. It's not emphasized. And so I on behalf of citizens here where that is applicable, I do appreciate that. Um and just to clarify, you've never had a time where you had a conflict of interest here where a council member child was being prosecuted. Just to make sure we're clear, >> right? >> Correct. Correct. Okay. Just so we're on the record. >> Thought they could neither neither confirm nor nor deny. >> We're confirming. It is not applicable here. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor. That's the answer. Yes. >> Anything, Mr. Dragassich? >> Nothing for me. >> All right. Um, so you're looking for direction on that? >> Yes, please. I find it to be a the value on behalf of residents. I have no issue with the services that are being provided and I think we continue to move forward. I'm fine with that. >> I really appreciate this presentation kind of seeing under the hood how the whole process works and what it all includes. It's always whenever you see somebody else's profession, you don't really understand what all goes into it until you hear a little bit more about it. And so I do really appreciate that presentation and likewise I I think this makes sense to to move forward with and it's worked well for the last several years. I see no reason not to continue it. Um and I just again I appreciate this education and helping us understand the process further. Just shows, you know, kind of how the relationships you guys look to build. >> Mr. Mayor, Council, uh happy to do it. Thank you, >> Mr. Mayor. >> Yes. >> Yeah, I agree. I haven't heard any complaints about your services. Um, it's usually a good thing. Um, either way, no one's called and said they're really tough on me or no one calls said they were real easy and let me go for free. Um, but you know, I I think it's been a good service and I'm okay with, you know, just proceeding with it. I did come armed with some lawyer jokes, but I won't tell them yet. >> We'll be here for an hour. >> So, do we welcome them, especially if they're about Mr. Bon. >> All right. With that, we'll just uh take a little quick till we got to switch some people around for the next >> topic. Thank you much. >> Thank you. >> Unless he was referring to your children. >> My children are in trouble. >> I got a long road ahead. >> I say was that >> Oh, yeah. There you go. All right. So, next on our agenda, we have uh Civic District Redevelopment Lake Elmo Elementary/Fury Motors. Is that you, Mr. Stoa? >> That is me. >> All right. So, first of all, I'd like to thank uh Kyle Huberty with St. Ter architects who helped with the presentation and some of the design work and then also Sher Mogrin, David Franker here from VCC who also answer questions um if you have any questions throughout the process of this uh presentation. So, just a little bit of background, we're here because the EDA requested the city council hold a workshop to discuss whether the city would be interested in purchasing both sites and lead a redevelopment project on the site. The combined site is about 19 acres, but it's about 15.5 buildable. That's not considering um that's when you take out the rightway. Currently, the BCC has an option to purchase the school site and Fury Motors is listed for $5 million. So, this is the site as you see it. You can see the parcels going into the rightway. So a couple studies that we've done recent past village visioning study and the comp plan. So some of the highlights from the visioning study were the summary from community engagement was a focus on bike pedestrian connectivity. People appreciated the village village's historic charm. They really wanted to support businesses and residents with new commercial and residential development. For housing types looking at um classic town houses with rear loaded garages. Um also land use is when you see more restaurants, entertainment, more retail. Basically um no strip malls or chain stores. Uh the comp plan land use goals four, five and six, there's an emphasis on creating strong vibrant dis districts in the village planning area. Um also identify and explore opportunities to improve the streetscape. So the old village district is what you think of as the build old village. So the north is the civic district and then to the east is what the comp plan calls the Elmo station district and then goal six is just to maintain and strengthen the small town charm. So the issue before the council tonight we have four questions and then some considerations just so you know what's going on at the site right now. But um how interested is the city council in pursuing the purchase and redevelopment of the area. Is the city open to master planning the site as a coordinated development? Uh, is the city willing to commit to a TND traditional neighborhood development approach? And I'll talk more about what that means. Um, is the city council interested in pursuing a business subsidy policy for redevelopment that's for the entire city, also for the site? And then is the city willing to consider financial tools like a TIFF for the site? So, a couple considerations just to think about, we'll discuss tonight. Uh, adaptive reuse uh, and preservation of the old school building. We're just talking about the old two-story building. Um, currently there's an outside uh developer. There's interest in the parcels. Uh, for example, there's a um gas station that's interested in the old school building site in the southwest corner. Uh, what we're going to talk about really in this presentation is the difference between suburban development versus a TND and looking at the benefits of the TND and kind of what the expectations are if the city chooses not to move forward. and then also considering the BCC's long-term plans we'll discuss tonight. So the why for the interest in purchase of the redevelopment site is we believe without investment from the city the site will most likely follow a suburban development pattern and we'll talk about that a little bit throughout this presentation why that's important. Um why master plan? because it allows the city to develop a holistic plan that addresses infrastructure, maximizes density and tax value, and creates predictable outcomes. And then a TND. So a TND, as defined by the National League of Cities, is a traditional neighborhood development, also known as a village style development that includes a variety of housing types, mixture of land use, an active center, a walkable design, and often transit option with a compact neighborhood scale area. TNDs can be developed either as infill or um in an existing development or as new larger scale projects. So the why here is a TND approach would provide the framework for a walkable connected mixeduse development that includes space for small businesses and a community center while emphasizing streetscape placemaking and connections to the historic village and this is all uh more easily achieved through master planning. Also, right now in throughout the country, TNDs are a popular and it's a relevant design approach to the village area. Uh they generally create more interest, attraction, and long-term value. So, one that I've talked about and I shared with the council in the past is Sarinbe. It's more of a rural TND um 30 minutes outside of Atlanta, Georgia. Seaside is kind of the classic example that was um built in the 90s. It's in the Truman Show if you've seen the movie. And then Liberty Landing is kind of like a TND light that is north of us. So, it's something that may you may have been through, but it's something close by to um that kind of does some of this um TND design. So, business subsidy financial policy. The big discussion is whether the council wants to consider establishing a business subsidy policy that we feel would be necessary as a framework for this site. And what we're really getting at is the why here is after looking at a couple projects in the past few years that I've been here. I truly believe that this is going to be necessary for this project to be feasible. We're talking about basically tiff or um discounted land. Um that's going through the old city hall looking at that understanding that the only way that was going to really work is if we didn't put money into it, right? If we put a lot of money into it, the numbers just don't work. So this is the proposed development concept and this is really high level but some of the things to look at here bringing Lake Elmo Avenue through the site and creating Lake Elmo Street and then terminating that with the VCC which is has a shared parking lot with the old city hall. To the southeast corner is a combination of of apartments and town houses. That northwest corner we think could either be town homes or even twin homes which would be um a little bit higher value. And then the southwest corner could be a combination of apartments, town houses, twin homes. So one of the things to know is that the county has a corridor study along Stillwater Boulevard starting in 2027. We think that's important to get the connection right between the old village and this district. Uh we looked at extending Lake Elmo Avenue into the uh development, concerning medians, angle parking, also bringing 37th Street North into this development too, considering angled parking. This isn't shown as angle parking, but it's this idea that maybe we could put more of the parking on the street as opposed to in parking lots. So the VCC currently has the option for the entire school site. We've talked about providing them with a longerterm option and setting aside three acres as opposed to 12. One of the things that we really like in this design for traditional planning, this concept of a terminated vista is common in traditional um town planning. It's typically you'll see like a church or something like that at the end of a street that kind of sets the uh you know sets that vista and then beyond that would be um city hall. This is one concept showing the VCC with city hall in the background. And this is kind of the terminated vista view. So couple things to consider in the small business area too that I didn't highlight, but we'll talk about that. That's on that Lake Elmo Avenue section. Is that for commercial new construction, the rent typically needs to be around $50 to $60 a square foot. And depending on the use, most local businesses can only support about $25 a square foot. We also think this development could house around 10 to,000 10,000 to 15,000 square feet of restaurants, retail space. Residential mix is pretty interesting. It's uh a mixeduse development. So, you're looking at a mix of density um that we believe would be a mix of town houses and apartments, nothing above three stories. And we think with financial risk, you're looking at 200 to 250 units to offset the risk of the 15 acres of the site. We think about 10 acres would be housing that the old school building could be reused. We'll get into the numbers in a second because this can change. U more town town homes, fewer units, more value. So this is just the public realm. These are some images of new construction that uh Kyle's team was able to put together. So you can just see some of the examples that we could use moving forward at the site. This is a mixeduse examples. Commercial retail. The one on the left is from Still Water. Residential court clusters. This is kind of like if you look at the twin home design, you could have more of a clustering closer homes. These are just different t housing types. The one on the top left is a is a twin home. This kind of highlights the plan again kind of gone through this this the site and what would go where but takes those images and drops them on plan. So, talking about the Valley Community Center, couple um things we wanted to highlight. Asked them for a few slides just to go over, but kind of what they're looking at doing at the site is a public pool, uh a gathering space, child watch indoor play, a multi-purpose gym, individual and group fitness, looking at roughly 53,000 foot building. Their annual operating budget around 4.1 million, and that revenue would be 71% of it made up by memberships. So there's two scenarios too based on scale. One that's 25,000 square feet, the other one is 53,000 square feet. See, one's 30 million, one's 50 million. But I think the main difference is they've been talking to the library about whether the library want to um colllocate with them in the future. That'd be at this location. Obviously, the pickle ball, basketball, other areas get larger, too. But that's what you're looking at. I think the pickle ball's inside, too. That's >> just a Yeah. That's the correct calm that down. >> That's the correct answer. >> Old school building. So, adaptive reuse. This is a building we were able to get into. >> Um, looking at institutional use to commercial use, it can be a short-term rental boutique hotel apartment. Uh, one of the challenges that we don't have enough information on right now, but would be an attempt to put on the national register through the through Shipo. Basically, it unlocks 40% tax credits for eligible expenses. think that this project may be feasible with those tax credits without them? Most likely not, but we haven't done enough work to make that determination. Couple buildings on the inside and the ground floor going up. It's basically a 12t ceiling, you know, without the drop ceiling. This one shows in the right corner there's still old wood floors underneath the second floor. This is just showing newer boiler electric something to talk about through this presentation whether the city wants to emphasize trying to save the old school go through this process with the historic tax credits. So financial impact feasibility couple things just to note with appropriate zoning is that land use and zoning will have to be amended with the school moving from institutional to village mixed use. Potential development densities currently the village mixed use is 10 units per acre. So, we're limited to 207 units. That's including the old city hall. One of the things we definitely want to do is identify development partners through this process before we move forward with the next steps that I'm going to lay out. And then the appropriate role of the city in facilitating redevelopment. So, there's a path where the city purchases, plans, installs the infrastructure, and creates lots. Essentially, Grace Lot sells them to developers that have already been um vetted and selected or the city purchases plans because there is some urgency here and then that the main developer would come in, purchase and then develop the infrastructure and have lots to sell. Development costs currently just the land cost 9.2 million. We're looking at pre-development costs at a couple hundred thousand. talk to the CDA. They're interested in assisting um with some of this just like environmentals and planning uh below our infrastructure costs uh for sewer, water, main street, everything except for uh storm sewer. So 1.8 million. So you're looking at an additional 2 million. This is where it gets interesting with the site value tiff and the tax revenue comparison to a suburban development because what we did was we framed this up as if the city doesn't do anything this is what typically would happen compared to the city moves forward with this project. So why I laid this out is just created um six parcels with acreages and then the units per acre basically town homes are 15 units per acre which is somewhat high but that's that's where they're at. And then 24 to 30 is a range of what you can actually build units per acre in an apartment. This could this pretty conservative 24. You could probably get even more than 30. But running that on the low and high end you get 209 units to 252 units. As you can see the in this model only the town homes in the northwest corner are town homes. Everything else is multif family. And when we run the numbers this can get adjusted. We'll talk about it more where you could have more town homes. But with the potential TND tax value, you're looking at about 74 million to 87 million in tax value. And then the t the tax itself about 3004 to 360,000. What I didn't include here, I didn't include any of the commercial values which could probably raise the improved property about $2 million. And that's because this is assuming a 26-year tiff. >> Excuse me. How long? >> 26 year. That's just for portions of the commercial, not the residential. So this is what we there's so this is the what's challenging here is it's very difficult to predict what's going to get built. So there's different scenarios, but we know that a gas station is interested in the corner. There's probably space for two more commercial parcels. It's likely that the building that's existing would be sold to somebody doing a use that would go into the building and then maybe another use to the east. And then suburban apartments would come in. The there's values assigned to the commercial, but the units are low, medium, and high. The high is basically coordinating the entire density and building what's based on 5.5 acres. It's just basically what you can fit on 5.5 acres. Um the other one, the the middle value scenario is based on the density on maxing out the school site. So if you just bought the school site, max out the density. And then the low value scenario is kind of the same thing except holding three acres for the VCC. So based on this, the low is 39 through 58 million and the tax value could range anywhere from 170 23 255. Something to consider too is the school building most likely be demolished in this scenario. Um and then the VCC site is there's uncertainty around the VCC site going forward. So just a value comparison with the TND about 80 to 85 million and that could range based on the council's appetite for housing density and then the suburban improvement of 40 to 50 million. This could change based on the um apartments that could be built at the site. So the the tax value be 315 to 350 compared to 175 220. Just remember that commercial pays fiscal disparities takes a large chunk of the tax revenue. So the more commercial you have, it all kind of evens out even though the values are they appear to be better. So a TND would generate about $130,000 more per year, 2.6 over 20 years. So this is what we're talking about with the twin homes, town homes. The projection is based on 19% low to 16% town homes, but increasing the town houses, town houses and reducing overall density can create the same tax value. So 250 units at a 16% town homes is equal to 222 units of 31% town homes and the development would align with uh the city's planning vision for this for the area. So next steps timeline. We're talking about how to get to an offer. discuss this with the school and the broker. Need about four months to refine our numbers and decide whether we can make an offer. Basically, we need to get to a letter of intent. This could possibly be done a little bit sooner, but we'd be looking at developing a site plan, refining development numbers, refining the infrastructure cost, planning costs, environmental costs. What we really need to know from our partners looking at this and studying this is preferred housing units because we could say, you know, this is how many apartments you need, but are people going to come in and buy the apartments? Are they going to come in and buy the twin homes at the price that's in the projection? So, we need to really refine that. We'd want VCC's commitment, basically understanding what the price would be to purchase the land, and then wanting to know potential commercial users or other small businesses that'd be interested in the area. Two, identify development partners. We would really want to do this need really recommend doing this before we would sign a letter of intent. We need people to go along with us on this. Um it's going to be highly risky if we don't uh develop and adopt a business subsidy policy. This is something I think the CDA could help us with um and funding and basically setting this guideline up for the city um not just for the site. And then as we move forward in this process, if you choose to move forward, you'd have something specific for the site. And these workshops are visioning for the site and the BCC workshop could happen in this room but would we would lead the visioning workshop and the VCC just wants to have a workshop to get um feedback from residents. If this happens and the city wants to move forward then we'd be looking at a 12 to I'm sorry a 6 to 12 month um you'd make an offer and then a due diligence process of 6 to 12 months. That'd be actually creating the site plan, infrastructure design, water considerations, soil testing, environmental phase one, phase two. Um, we look at design standards and guidelines to create architectural theming also. So, setting up what this should look like for uh development partners. We need to BCC assign an option. Business FC framework should be created for this development. Uh, development partners would submit concept plans. we would sign Lois and then uh potential commercial users if we have any could sign LOIs also. So going back to the discussion slide other questions we have for council. So, I know it was a lot, but we tried to get it done. And, you know, I think timing is important for this because at some point the BCC's option goes away and then the city has to make a decision. And we're just trying to figure out whether this is something the council would even want to consider. Like, it's just considered the next step, we do the next step. >> Can you talk a little bit more about the timing in the VCC just to help me understand again why the timing is real critical right now? think the VCC can help answer that. David come right here. Hi, Mayor Council Jason Nicole staff. I'm David Frank here representing Valley Community Center. Uh we have a purchase agreement with the Stillwater School District for the whole of the Lake Elmo Elementary School property. It currently runs until early October. So, we plan to make an extension request here shortly for a period of time, and it's to the school district to decide if they're willing to extend it, and if so, for how long. We're currently in an extension already. We're hopeful for an additional extension, but we're not sure. That's not our call. >> Okay. >> Maybe. >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> Is that what is kind of what's the hold up? uh what >> what's keeping it from moving forward? >> Mayor, council members, is your question why aren't we just closing on the property and starting construction? >> Um well, in Jason's slides, you saw it's a somewhere between a 30 and $50 million project, probably closer to 50 million. That's a lot of public and private fundraising that we're getting going on now, but that's a several year exercise to raise all the money to pay to a contractor to build a building. So, we're not ready to close on it until we have the money to build the building. >> So, when you say it's a several year process to get those funds, though, is this you need to get commitments in the next few months to show that you can sign this and move forward or >> I mean, this the school is not going to wait years for this. >> Uh, mayor, council members, um, correct. I know that they're not. Um, but some amount of fundraising would allow us to move forward with a closing on the real estate and then own it while we raise the rest of the money. So, there's steps along the way >> over the next few months. That's what needs to happen. >> Correct. But it will >> Sorry to interrupt, but yes, it will it will take us longer than a couple of months to raise the money to acquire even the property. >> Okay. >> Council member Jitch, where did all where did all the numbers come from? predict predicted cost of development, predicted cost of infrastructure and >> this infrastructure came for Bolton and Mink. We asked them just to do a quick analysis of the infrastructure cost. So Nate can talk to that if you have questions specific to that. Um we use some of the ULI tap numbers and also um discussions with um talk to to Kyle and getting those numbers. Um so for example the price of a unit for multif family is 300,000. So that's what the projection is. And for the town home twin homes at 600,000 value per unit. We know that with the pro the project that PY is doing in St. Paul, those are going for 800,000. I've talked to PY here on another project. It's not feasible here. So we have to really reduce those lower. Twin homes would be a higher value. So basically that's what we're we're using um where those development costs kind of carry them over from the ULI tab. And so the purchase price combined is 9.2 million for the property >> non-negotiated. That's that's where it's at. >> Okay. So where where would the city get 9.2 million from? >> That's part of the fourmonth discussion because we'd have that conversation um with finance, but it would be a basically a short-term loan and then one of the options is the sale of the um 180 acres considering whether or not you'd want to use that money to do that. There's also with the short-term loan approach, if you wanted to go and still move forward with this, not starting construction until a development partner is on board and then essentially holding it and then getting the subsidy in place and then flipping it to them and then all the work occur with the developer. >> My concern, you know, is if we reduce our cash by 9.2 million, we're going to get ready to do a bond issue. That could have some impact on our credit rating. um on our next bond issue because the cash is gone. >> Can we go back to the slide with the the question the >> questions? >> Well, yeah. Kind of what you're looking for feedback on. >> I guess I'll just I'll kind of kick it off here. I'll give my my my thoughts on this for as far as for number one. Um I I have very little interest in the city council pursuing this. Um master planning, I think we've done a lot of planning uh kind of around this area for what the city is looking for. Um so I don't know if additional master planning necessarily needs to be done. Um I like from the presentation the the TND approach uh definitely looks very appealing. I'd prefer maybe the city council take more of a approach through, you know, our zoning code and that process to achieve that through somebody else doing that besides the city. Um, and then as far as number four, not I'm not interested in pursuing a subsidy policy. I'd be interested in looking at our current policies and how we could make it easy for easier for businesses to come and develop at a reasonable financial expense where you know you can make it work for businesses besides just the big box businesses you know. So specifically one thing that comes to my mind right away is you know the wack sack fees. Um I I know from a lot of the the businesses that have went up that is a a huge issue an expense that a lot of times u seems to halt uh pro the progress for these businesses. So I would rather take the approach what can we do to get out of the way and make it easier for companies to come in here the private market to come in here and take care of this. I just if this is something that I guess my my philosophy on this is if it's something that the private market can do then the government should do it. >> I um I see that point and and I agree with that a lot of the time. This is a this is a very interesting um point right here right now that if you pass it and you do one thing or you let one thing go, you don't control what happens there. So if you don't answer one and two in the affirmative, you really don't have an option on three and four is the way that I'm looking at this. And the other thing I look at is for both of those sites is we do the city council did, the previous city council agreed that um TIFF would be eligible for redevelopment sites. Um which I would say that both the school and the Fury site would be uh redevelopment within the area. Um, so the the kind of the ying and the yang I see is a lot of times um and we see some of this with with urban sprawl and you get what you get when you let the private sector just dictate what you're going to get and that's usually the highest bang for their lowest buck is kind of what I see and somebody tell me I'm wrong but Um, if I from what I see in the the Lake Elmo is people are really um interested, concerned, want to make sure that the old village area maintains character. And if you let something like this pass by and just let the nature that will go, um, you're going to end up with something that may or may not fit the character of the city or the village that that people desire. I mean, if you're going to like to wish there were some more bumper cars on this thing from from a risk perspective. Um, but it interests me because I I think long term I mean you say when you said a tiff 26 years like I don't even know if I'm going to be around in 26 years, right? But um but I I again I'm trying to think beyond me and us and into the future because whatever is going to be there is going to be there for a very long time. The school was there for over a hundred years, right? So, whatever goes there more than likely is going to outlive most of us in this room, not being hypothetical >> except for us. >> No, you're you're Yeah. Yeah. you you'll probably still be around. So, I guess that's the perspective I come from is you can either let something happen or take the reigns and make something happen. And I would rather make something happen than let something happen that the community has input on. And yes, there's a cost to that, but the long-term return is there. And I think, you know, one thing that I've always tried to push is building community and areas that people can be proud of and bringing people together because that's that's where society it is. I I think co taught us all that, right? Being in your house by yourself kind of stinks for most people. >> So, where do you suggest we get the $9 million from? >> I don't know. >> Okay. I mean, I agree with you're saying that, right? there's maybe another way of doing a public private partnership that gets us there partnership. Um >> director Stoa mentioned you know we do have an opportunity in another part of the city >> that could bring some cash along with it to help us with that approach. Um I you know I guess I'm just speaking out loud and what I'm thinking. Yes, Council Member Holtz. >> We'll uh use this one. I come at it from a couple of angles. I I think to me it's we control the things we can control. And something we we've heard when we're on the plan commission days, something we hear consistently now is feedback about the things we can't control. You know, stop the growth. We can't stop the growth like that that ship has sailed. But we can control what it looks like. We can control where it goes. And council member Hearn's point, yeah, we can do it through zoning and we have. We also can take it to that next level of saying what the change shall look like. As to the question of number two, I have zero issue whatsoever if we go out for an RFP to say we want someone to help coordinate master planning for this site. I have zero is issue with that. We because that's not talking about a $9 million thing. That's talking about a probably a five figure thing that we can easily can do with cash on hand and it's not going to change our our bond rating in terms of three. Absolutely. That is a consistent piece of feedback I've heard from the community for years that without using that phrase right traditional neighborhood development if we go out much I didn't know what that phrase was till two weeks ago but we when we see it we know what that is when we see that in various places whether it's in the uh vision the village vision study in which there are many examples of different architecture and styles people are attracted to that because It gives a sense of place, gives a sense of home, it gives a sense of character. So absolutely in terms of business subsidy, yes, we I have full support in using the tools that are in front of us where the tools still create a value gain for the city. TIFF is one example. Uh abatement is an example. There are other examples that exist um that can help to ensure that the improvements and the changes that occur are for the long-term benefit of the city and its residents. I have no issue taking creative approaches. We've never done tiff in this city before. That's not because it's wrong. It's because we haven't had an opportunity to utilize it in a way where is effective for the city. and and the policy we have right now says it's not to be used for new development. This is not new development and no and no one said it was. But for for those uh watching, we explicitly say it's not for a brand new development that's coming in. No, if the market wants to do something new that's on the market for this because and I agree with the mayor in this case, it's a unique site. There are costs here that I if the market were to do it on its own. I think it would drive a product that is not a traditional neighborhood development, it would create a product that is not what our residents want. They don't want a gas station there. They don't I >> But how are we going to do it as government then? >> Well, number if we want to, we could vote to tomorrow and do a special meeting and put a moratorum on this entire parcel. We could. We could but we can also do that through the zoning. We can update our zoning things. We can also go out for RFP and say hey to interested parties and developers we are going to go out for RFP to try to coordinate the master design of the site who is interested for private investors. Maybe it is a a private public partnership where there's a specific and limited cost share. Maybe it's none at all because this is so attractive because we are saying that we are interested in creating a product that is attractive. It because I I fully agree for for new places the market should drive it. This is there are costs here that the market is not going to easily tackle and their approach would probably create a product that we don't want. Hence why it might be easier to create a gas station on the corner, which again I don't think is what the long-term vision is for what people want in the old village. I certainly don't. Um but that that's one example. There are many uses there that I don't think would be the the best and maybe we do need to have a very quick conversation on specific uses in the short term. But I fully again it's a hypothetical but that that image of the terminated vista I like I my family and I we travel. This is what we do during uh the first week of August and we're priv privileged enough to see places throughout the country. And this past uh August, we were in the Northeast in towns that are 200 years old and they had the courtyards or the common spaces. And that's what it makes me think of. It's not right or wrong. I find it to be an attractive uh way to design the community. And that was that was one of the takeaways I had for there's a couple towns in New Hampshire and Vermont where it's like my god that was intentional and it's something where it's been there for 200 years and there's that that type of you have a direction a terminated place that you're going to I find that again this is all hypothetical taking Elmo and extending it north into there that is very similar to what the 2007 uh old village plan was that was created back in the Originally the plan was they're going to take Lake Elmo A, continue it straight through the middle of Fury and make a slight left turn and that was going to be your civic space. Now that plan died, it collected dust. It was a brilliant plan, but there was never any action on it. And the people who did that plan put a lot of time and effort into it and it was supported in terms of the vision. It just it there was never any um rubber meets the road. So I to me the question is not do we support that. I I I go on a whim and say we do that >> be great to have that. >> Yes. The question is how that's the far harder thing and and that happens with all stuff we do, right? Like the question is how how do we get there? >> And I guess maybe that's where I just my feeling on this is because I 100% agree. That would be phenomenal if that's what happened here. would love it. If the the private market can't figure out a way to support doing that, then why would we do it as government? >> There's there's a middle ground. >> One question I have for for you, Council Member Hearn, is and I agree wholeheartedly, there are things that government should stay in its lane and there's things I mean, you don't want private sector taking over your snow plowing, right? I mean that just that I'm going to do my mom's house first and >> yeah, >> screw all these other roads. But so I agree on that. Sometimes in something like this, it may be a little out of the box or something new where maybe there's a I do think that public private partnerships where the public does the public stuff well and the private does the private stuff well. It can work, but it doesn't doesn't always work. >> And so maybe in that partnership, what would you envision? What would the government's role in that partnership be then? One one thing we could do in a partnership like that is we have two million of infrastructure roughly, water, sewers, streets, things like that. We could put together a proposal, a development proposal where we'd work with the private sector. We say, "Okay, we'll partner on this. We'll do the infrastructure using TIFF." >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, we we could sell a a TIFF bond and we could do the infrastructure with TIFF or pay for a cash, whatever we'd like. that takes two million out of the development costs and provides leverage to get the kind of development that we want because I think that would be a beautiful concept but we have to find a partnership that works from all of the perspectives. >> I'm not saying we have to figure it out here tonight. >> For sure. Yeah. >> It's just a thought that we can continue the discussion on it. >> Yeah. >> As a possibility with some end in sight, right? you don't want to talk about it forever. >> The other thing to remember >> so we can gather more information, maybe put some more boundaries about it. >> Um, make sure the numbers, you know, are >> and maybe that's part of it for me too is I see this >> it just it makes me >> pretty nervous. There's a lot of risk me >> to this, right? And that's again, it's just not the role of government. I mean, that's the role of an private investor. And my again my my feeling on this is I'd love to I' I'd love to have that vision happen. And I think our role in having that vision h happen having that vision happen what can we do to make it possible for a private entity to do this. We would have to do that with some of the zoning and some of those changes because there would need to be changes I think based on um pupil per acre that type of thing. I don't know if that BMX number actually fits in that area. And again that there are people probably in this room people that are listening that live in Lake Elmo are like I don't I don't want to see houses that close and whatever. But we have all kinds of different housing styles within the city. We have large lots. We have some farms. We have town homes now. We have some apartments down near 94. So, um I think that a city's in my opinion, not saying it's the right thing, but city is well served with a various a variety of of housing types. So, I think where there's a will, there's a way. I I I think I've seen enough cities and driving around when you see that they just let you hear about the smaller towns, not that we're a small town any longer. They'll let the Walmart come in on the outside of town and it completely decimates the old part of town. You know, Mel's Diner and the hardware store go away. you know, we have those, but um if you just let it happen, it's not always the best thing for the livelihood of your your community and to create that community. >> The other thing we have to remember in this piece, there's two two important parts. One is, you know, you can do a tiff, but you have to be just test requirements. One is the but for test was but for the test is the the financial de development would not occur, >> right? Right. And that's a fairly intense de economic house, but there are people that do that do it very well. The second thing is got to be careful not to create a subsidy for new businesses that then compete with your existing. So you get them in at 25 bucks a square foot because that's what it takes and they run your businesses a block away out of business who put all their own money into it. And so you have to balance out all the all of those interests. So, I think there's a way to get this done if we if we put our heads to it and and work with developers, but we have to be, you know, my my we have to be careful of those those things. fully fully agreed with that and you on our end like we have as part of our two-year goals that we wanted to to have this conversation right about this site because the old city hall fury and the elementary so I mean this is a part of it and to the EDA's credit they did say and ask that we have this conversation in terms of the purchase but I I don't think any of us are talking about purchasing the site I I don't think that's in now maybe It's again >> I would be interested in the next steps. >> Yes. Like what are the things with within our control that that the financial risk is not that of a $9 million purchase, but things that are within our control that are less risk, but I I do think there's tremendous value gain to be intentional, to be thoughtful, to be collaborative on this. I Again, we are going to grow. I would rather directly help to manage is not the right word to coordinate to plan to say this is what it should look like and that we do want to see this type of traditional neighborhood. Well, the other thing I I think, you know, I've met with BCC many times. I've told them that I'm supportive of the idea of a community center. Um because I do think that while Lake El's a city, we all live in a larger community that used a lot of people, we are fairly centrally located. I think that BCC trying to buy the whole uh site by itself was maybe less attainable. I think the newer vision probably fits. I haven't talked to him about this, but I'm guessing it it's it's probably more in line with what what is doable um on a size and what's needed basis. But um that that could be a win-win really. Um, so >> I guess that's my my two cents >> is one of the next steps to discuss tonight. Do we have an interest as a city pursuing the school status? Do we want to walk through that or can is that maybe a down the road in a month or two? Well, I think we'd want to start as soon as possible in terms of taking some of these next steps just to >> because the hard the hard part I have I again that is a tool in the toolkit by doing so it unlocks dollars to help with the redevelopment that is a win. The risk to it is it also limits what could potentially be a value gain in another plan or another vision. So that that's why I don't want to it's hard right if you do that status what if the end outcome is something where it doesn't include that and I I we are so far we're 22 steps away from that I do appreciate they took the time and said here are possible reasonable uses for that whether it is a um what's the type of hotel >> boutique >> boutique hotel or apartments like there are many schools that are built from 1910 10 to 1930 where they become apartments or condos because the classrooms that size fit with single bedroomedroom apartments. The building is structurally going to last 300 years. The lead paint needs to be removed but structurally solid as can be. So that there that's happened across the state and the country where it fits with that type of uh use and I think there are many people who would appreciate that. >> All right, we do need to get moving on the next couple. We have two more items. structural engineer. >> Yes. >> So, >> um if we give you enough >> I guess with the old school site too want to pursue talking to Shipo and seeing if that's possible or >> sorry talking to who? >> The state historic preservation office to see tax credits. I >> I thought the school was going to tear that building down once a new school. That's what they told me when we met with them. >> Yeah. >> Well, I that's a conversation we've had with the school, too. So, if the city were to buy it, that's an option to save it. It would be up to the city. >> I uh I've had more problems with Shipo than I've gained benefits from Shipo in my past life. So, >> um you'll have to ask somebody else on that account. >> Okay, >> I'll trust you on that. It's just yeah there's a lot of rules and lines and things that you got to play within and sometimes it just seem unreasonable >> and it may not even be eligible for the National Register. So it's something that we could >> nothing against HIPPO they've got their purpose but yeah >> but if they if it doesn't qualify for the National Register it wouldn't >> get the tax credit. So >> Yep. >> All right. Good. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. Moving on to community engagement on 180 acres. And by all means, if that's what you were waiting for and you'd like to step out, feel free because I know not everybody wants to talk about everything we've got on the docket tonight. Well, you know, Clark's going to talk about water, which is very interesting. >> Good discussion. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Enjoy point. Thank you very much. >> Some more water. real estate. >> At first I was like, Are you up again, Jason? >> Oh, Ashley's gonna take care of this great new voice. >> Okay, swing away. >> Ready when you are. Okay. So, next we're going to talk about the community engagement on the cityowned 180 acres and then um talk about project next steps. So, at the city council workshop in March, um council guided staff to conduct a commu community engagement for the 180 acres uh inhouse as one of the next steps of the process. Um so, here I have a agenda laid out. Uh I'll begin with a brief background followed by an overview of the process. Uh then we'll go over the themes and then I'll turn it over to Jason to talk about recommendations and next steps. So, uh, as as you all know, uh, the city owns 180 acres on the city on the city's western edge. Uh, this acreage is a result of a 2019 settlement with 3M. The city has maintained its intention to sell the property and is expected that future development will occur in three phases. Um, and in 2025, the city worked with um, the Urban Land Institute on a technical assistance panel to help guide next steps. So overview uh the goals of this process were to inform community members about the project uh generally to foster transparency and to create a space for the community to voice their opinions and preferences and then to share that uh feedback back with the decision makers. Um I also wanted to share a quick note that um although the survey outlined uh that uh the project had the attempt we had the intent to sell the land um despite that context many participants use the survey as an opportunity to advocate for anti-development and pro-preservation stances. So um just wanted to acknowledge that and say that um although the process has remained focused on learning about the community preferences uh we just want to acknowledge and incorporate that opposition into the committee engagement. So with that we had three opportunities for engagement in this process. The first was a public hearing at the EDA meeting on June 16th. Um the public uh hearing notice was sent out to property owners near the project site. Uh it was published in the Stillwater Gazette and on the city project page. And as far as participation went, we had five community members that spoke at the meeting. 12 public comments were received and summarized in the presentation. Uh public comments were also um attached in the report. Next, we had an openhouse at city hall on June 30th. Uh that was self-guided tour with feedback stations. Uh staff and some EDA members were available for conversations. We had 30 give or take community members that um came to the open house. And then finally we did a POCO survey that was open for uh about four weeks, closed on July 3rd. We had 404 respondents. 327 um were from Lake Elmo. Uh we also asked folks how they heard about the project so we could inform future engagement. Uh and turns out most people heard about it on social media. Um followed by the city newsletter. So good to know for the future. So as we analyze the engagement methods we found the some key themes listed here. First is prioritizing green space and preservation. Second maintaining community character. Third mitigating public nuisances. And then fourth, ensuring the long-term environmental and um financial sustainability. So I'll go through the themes uh pretty high level. Uh some more of the information is outlined in the report. Um first, respondents expressed a strong interest in preserving the land as is or maximizing as much open space into the design. Um when digging in further the reasoning given uh both in person and in qualitative responses via the survey indicated that the reason for wanting the open space preservation varied. So many respondents cited concern for wildlife um concerned with uh water and conservation issues generally. Some had an anti-development sentiment and others wanted to keep the rural fuel of the city. So the graphics here illustrate um the level of support for developing the acreage and um most important public space features to the community overall. Uh the level of support for the developing or for developing the land was about 44% across all respondents. Um that was somewhat support or strongly support and around 49% for those that somewhat were strongly opposed. Um those numbers shift a little bit when you look at just Lake Elmo residents. That turns to about 47 um 46 um strongly opposed, somewhat opposed and some strongly and somewhat support for. Um next I listed the most important public space features relating to green space and preservation. Um people wanted to see landscaping natural features on the site. uh followed by um their next number one preference or number two and number three preferences were public gathering spaces on the site and then connectivity. >> Just a quick question. So for the right 494, >> what was the specific question that was asked that got those results? >> I would have to go and I can find it for you. >> It might just be interesting, but it was generally a question about do you support? >> Yeah, it was more or less anything here or just doing nothing. >> Yep. Uh well, it wasn't like a yes or no. was in what level of support do you have for developing on the >> I think it was pretty much those questions. Do you strongly support it? Do you oppose it? Do you somewhat strongly support developing this 180 acres but it didn't really specify the what >> right just generally >> generally something happening. >> Yeah. Uh yeah, the thought process was that if eventually we wanted to go through and analyze deeper, we could we could maybe separate separate people um to see who prefers what kind of characteristics. We didn't get that deep in this analysis, but if if you did have questions, we could we could we could we could dig deeper. >> Yeah. >> And they're Yeah, they're attached. Yeah. Yeah. Um so the next theme was maintaining community character. Um community members had a preference for maintaining a distinct local sense of character for uh Lake Elmo. So we saw a lot of people that wanted that rural um feel and um don't be Woodberry. Um, also it was worth noting that many of those preferred that preferred open space preservation on the parcel um kind of went handinhand with the the folks that um that wanted to maintain community character. So those two themes um kind of go hand in hand. Um the next was mitigating public nuisances. Uh we heard about this at inerson engagement especially at um both the at both in-person uh engagement opportunities. So at the public hearing and at the open house people had anxieties about increases to traffic and those impacts including noise um from daily traffic and safety but they also had concerns about uh traffic and or I'm sorry noise and safety generally. So the final theme was ensuring long-term environmental and financial sustainability. Um through throughout the engagement efforts, community members emphasized the importance of ensuring both. Um throughout comments and conversations had at the open house, there's an expectation that the funds generated from the development should be managed transparently uh and used to benefit the community. So next we just wanted to highlight some other notable survey um highlights I guess. Uh the survey shared the vision for land use on parcels one and two and then asked the community whether preferences would be overall responses respondents had similar preferences for parcel one and two uh as shown in the pie chart here. Um most notably the there was a difference for a higher p a higher preference for commercial uses on parcel 2 compared with industrial uses. For parcel three uh the survey described the property um as it was expected to develop uh as a support of mix mix of housing and commercial development and asked respondents how they would prioritize those uses. Um this was kind of interesting because >> they Yeah. Yeah. So we don't disappear. >> Yeah. Yeah. Sure. You got it. >> You're all dead, huh? >> Mine pretty soon. >> They all died at the same time, huh? >> Sabotaged. >> You're still green. >> Yeah. for one more. >> One more second. >> Everybody good? All right. Thank you. >> All right. Yeah, no problem. Ready when you are. Um, so for parcel three, uh, we the survey described the property as expected to support a mix of housing between commercial development and, uh, or a mix of housing and commercial development. Ask respondents how they would prioritize those uses. This is the one that I we thought was kind of interesting because it came back as equal um between >> uh mostly housing with less commercial space uh more commercial with less housing and then a balance of each. >> Super helpful, right? >> Yeah. So, uh finally, we wanted to share some of the themes specifically rel related to the open hop the open-ended question at the end of the survey about what would make this a successful development. Um all four of our original uh key engagement themes were identified uh again here. So further validated. Um so some of those themes in that last question were community character uh community gathering spaces. So parks, community centers and other places for people to gather. Uh in this question we saw some interest in economic development and commercial activity. Um once again green space and land preservation housing. Uh this is kind of interesting too compared to some of the other results was that um there a lot of people noted they wanted to minimize the amount of housing on for overall development. So suggesting that residential development was not measured as the primary uh measure of success. Uh once again p mitigating nuisances um and then walkability and pedestrian scale commerce. Uh this kind of popped out in that last question too in the in the written responses. Uh and then finally wildlife and environmental impact. So I will hand it off to Jason to talk about next steps and recommendations. So the next steps with communications are uh share the community engagement results on our project page at the city's website. Um and just moving forward and keeping people engaged and understand what the next steps are. Um one of the things to consider keeps getting brought up is consider explaining how income from the sales will be used. People ask about that. So that's just something to consider um when you want to decide if you want to do that. Um, parcels one and two, it says conservation easements, but this is really just like buffering where you could consider some buffering on the site. We want to talk about that tonight. Mitigate potential nuisances through buffers, BMS, landscaping design standards. We have design standards especially for parcels one and two for business for business park. um asking if you want enhanced design standards for these sites. There are a lot of details in those design standards. I went through them today. I don't think we necessarily need enhanced design standards, but it would be something you know if you have something you're considering you would want to see there, we'll talk about it tonight. Um and that is do you want to create open space buffers on the parcels, greater setbacks, enhance perming, do you want to consider enhancing those kinds? So, something just to kind of call out on the site is that on the 75 foot setback on the on the eastern edge, that's actually the um power line corridor and there's about 50 feet where there's trees in the north corner of that buffer, the northwest corner of that buffer. So it's something that we could consider as a city saying that you know we wouldn't have a 50 foot planted buffer 175 foot total buffer and it could be small saplings planted there could be different ways so they're not spending a lot of money on trees but over time you create a really tall evergreen buffer. Random question, but because 3M owns the trapezoid to the south, right? >> Yeah. >> Why? >> Well, it's drainage. >> It's part of the shoreline overlay, so it's drainage. And I think at the time it wasn't considered valuable. >> There's a creek that runs through it. >> I mean, all right. Just because if there's ever an opportunity to leverage that for watershed purposes or whatever or we have it as part of our buffer, but they never even offer you know, I don't know if it's I'm not going to say it's not buildable, but it isn't a shoreline overlay. You know, get pretty complicated. >> Um, and then 100 foot setback. Well, we heard from the residents of Oakdale that is a housing development to the west. They're concerned. So, one of the things that we could could consider as a city is an enhanced setback. The building setback in the district is 50 feet on the um design standards. So doing something enhanced um planting a burm maybe a little bit higher but then also if there's truck trailers because we'll talk about truck trailers in a second doing enhanced screening the same way that we discussed with evergreens that grow tall and you know completely shield >> do we know what the setbacks for the houses on Oakdale are >> well so there's a coupleations right now there there's going to be rightway dedication that we're going to have to follow so that's been dedicated on that side I assume it's probably like 15 to 20 ft from that because >> I'm just thinking, you know, it's like, you know, they they want a buffer on our side. I mean, I guess my thought would be, well, we could just do whatever they have on their side. So, if they're asking, have you got a lot of push back from >> that was city council Oakdale or is it >> that was just in the open house? It was >> got it. A lot of people that show up to the open house were >> there's one development that comes off of that road tracks heading to the west. >> Yeah. So that's that's about it. I mean, you do have a shoreline overlay that runs through the southern portion of that lot. Um, so they're going to want to stay out of that because of >> for surface coverage. But, um, I don't know if there's anything else you want to discuss on this site. You get buffering from the tracks and buffering itself. >> Where's the public works garage? I don't know that you need to do much buffering for that >> works garage >> for the tracks themselves right >> I mean >> tree lines on both sides >> as one current resident told me the railroad's their best neighbor >> I know we had it was a really high level graphic that was put on the slot of what could potentially go there would these 175 and 100 foot buffers impact and again I know it was just a mockup of what potentially could go there but would that heavily impact what was originally shown to us? >> The mockup I've seen I don't think 175 because it actually is an easement. Right. So it's adding just a little bit more create a tree line. >> Sure. >> Um the other one would be a little bit less >> nothing drastic though. >> No. >> Okay. Significant. >> I mean I the one is the power line so that's a moot point. >> I think 100 is pretty aggressive. Um, you don't need a hundred to create a burm with quality vegetation. >> Yeah. Um, obviously the county is going to be doing it right away there anyways, but I fully support following our own standards which have been updated several times the last couple years based upon our experience on Hudson. >> Um, whether it's our residents or not to Oakdale, I think is moot. I fully support following our own standards and I think our standards are very robust in that regard for this specific because our standards would still apply us from more intensive to less intense. Correct. >> Right. >> So I I find our standards there to be pretty solid and I would not support any variances from it and I think you could do with a 20 to 40 foot setback there. I 100 is pretty aggressive. >> I I tend to agree there. Yeah. I just I mean I don't know how much Yeah, I I agree. I I think we have our standards that were set for a purpose, you know, and if they were good enough for us, then I think it's good enough in this situation as well. >> Yeah, >> I do like the um screening evergreens and make sure that that occurs because the issue with the design standards in general is it says promotes a certain type of layout. So you try to work with a developer changing the layout. It may be easier just to say, you know, you can have a certain layout, but we prefer screening of a certain type. That way, it's just easier because when we shop it, we just give them this like these are the standards. >> I think we should stick with our standards. Um, certainly. And I mean, not to get in, we always get these politics of cities back and forth, but city creates their standards. They're good for the city. Oakdale certainly did a development on the north side of Immation. I don't know that their restrictions fit within the city of Lake Elmo's requirements or not, but you know, they built it and so we've got a property and we're trying to designate it for sale and we'll stick with our >> Did they change their standards? You know, I don't know. >> Not that I know of. That's why I didn't I wasn't going to say >> No, I'm not trying to pit it, but you know, they they have their standards. We have our standards and we we think our standards for our residents, we should be good. >> You know, maybe they're not good enough for standards of somebody else, but it's our property and I think we should at least adhere to our standards. Okay. So, other discussion is use. This came up um the presentation with the EDA, but uh determine how the city would like to regulate uses such as trucking on parcels one and two and determine if the city should require a certain mix of business, park, light, industrial uses on the site. This is assuming that there would be a business uh park use. So just talking to um a few people, the most likely uses in order would be a warehouse distribution. This would be a truck heavy facility with trailer stalls. Then you would have more of a manufacturing type facility that would also have truck loading areas would be required. And then an office park was brought up, not as likely with limited trucking. So you're most likely going to see the first two uses. So the idea is we kind of go through the questions. Do you want to limit to warehouse and distribution? Do you want to require a portion of the site to be developed as manufacturing or office park? Uh do you want to have certain requirements for the northwest corner which seems to be the most valuable corner in parcel 2? Do you want to require So this is a question that we're talking through is the sewer connection for parcel 3 and the question is would the city want to build the sewer if the parcel does not um have development plans by 2029. So, one of the things is we talk about is just requiring whoever builds on parcel 2 is required to bring the sewer to the site. So, um you know that's one of the things that we're we're talking to the developers and then I guess we can talk about the uses really quick those questions. I mean, my two cents is these parcels are very much, I'll put it this way, parcels one and two have a railroad running directly through them. There is a substantial target adjacent to one parcel. We have a 3M property abuing the entire south side of one. We h of commercial properties abuing the east side of another. And we have a single uh 8.9 acre residential parcel that touches one. There's one residential parcel that touches this entire for parcels one and two. And again, we have a heavy use railroad running straight through it. So I don't see warehousing and distribution or manufacturing as being anything counterintuitive to what someone is experiencing already in this area. County 14 is right there. 694 is a half mile away. I This is not a secluded area of nature. It's not. And so I I have zero issue. Obviously, we we still do sound studies. We still do traffic studies. We still adhere to our own standards. But in terms of the uses, I absent of that use somehow causing a noise violation or to somehow violate our light standards, I see no reason to be limiting it at this time. >> One thing that EDA brought up was why you would want to consider manufacturing our office park is based on job screen. So that that was one. >> It it would be nice if it was included. >> Yep. I'll just go back to I don't want to limit it because I would just prefer whoever is interested in this coming and telling us what would work. I just I'm I don't want to be in the business of saying what's going to work and what's not going to work because my expectations probably don't meet reality and and theirs are going to they're going to do that and if if they don't then they're the ones taking the risk on that. So, I'd hate to >> Well, you and I missed the meeting last week where they had the meeting. I don't know. >> Well, I watched it. >> Watch online and so that was interesting. >> Yeah. >> Brian stated that office development just wasn't something there was a market for right now. >> Yeah. Right. >> So, I guess yeah, that's my thought is I don't want to limit it, but I do want to, you know, like you said, when when something gets proposed, obviously we take a very close look at it. It has to meet all the standards. We have very strict standards in place. If we're concerned that there's maybe standards >> that aren't up to snuff or that we're concerned about, I'd rather >> between now and then take a look at addressing those standards between now and then. So, we had that tool in the toolbox. But I just that doesn't mean I want necessarily one of one more than the other. It's just I don't want to be the one deciding. >> I'd rather they decide. And then with the sewer, is that safe to assume that we would like the developer to bring the sewer to parcel three as we discussed going back to uli? >> Yeah. >> And then >> I think so. And whether that goes via the middle of parcel two or under 14 that you know kind of a ways away from the inter I mean I don't know how that happens but it would be nice. Just when I talk to them, I just try to let them know that this is one of the things they consider come up with a plan. >> I mean, or or do you say, "Well, when parcel three gets phased in, then it's I mean, they they just have to bring it from parcel two to parcel 3." I don't >> you you could go either way. >> Oh, where they bring it to the southern edge of 14 or where they shoot it under 14 and bring it to the edge of three. Well, we're talking about right now it's only like a couple hundred feet past the tracks. >> Yeah. >> So, the eastern edge is de they're going to have to bring it over to the east. >> Yeah. Yeah. They have to bring to the eastern edge. >> But if all Okay, >> but I think if if parcel three at some point has some plan, I don't think you put it on the people parcel two to bring it that way. I guess I would have person three bring it from the junction point. maybe have them put a stub to the property line on the north side. >> That was the plan was to have them bring it to the south, you know, the northern part of their parcel but not under the highway. >> Right. That's that's what I'm >> Yeah. Okay. >> get it to County 14. >> Okay. >> I think I think that was more than reasonable and it's consistent with how it's consistent with prior developments. >> Okay. I I'll just I'll throw in a thought here is I think this is potentially an area where we could make an impact make this more financially feasible for companies private money looking to come and invest in this where maybe they can create a product that is more up to the standards that we want. Again, I'm just putting that out there is this is I think an area where you know this is something that government would be good at doing, right? We have a lot of experience at this um and it does create that financial it decreases the amount of finance that the the private entity has to bring and then again that allows them to create a better product um or to have cheaper housing. So I they want to pay for it, great. But if we're struggling to make ends meet here and find somebody who's, you know, willing to develop what kind of what we have envisioned for this, I think this is a a tool where we could maybe make an impact. >> When you say use requirements for northwest corner of >> Well, that was to be a parcel two >> of parcel two. So across the street from Target, >> correct? Yeah, that's where the U manufacturing if you did want to include that use would probably most likely want to go. >> I think I mean to me, especially parcels one and two, three I think is going to be a different discussion, but for parcels one and two, the reason we got this from 3M is to assist the city with finances on our end. How we then choose to have it assist in our finances is obviously a discussion that we we will have at some point. Which financial areas do we want to to assist with? Um and to me then we have it's incumbent upon us that we are not limiting the potential financial benefit. And so, same thing you said, I don't want to limit the uses if that means potentially limiting how it will benefit residents and our financial bottom line. Taking away a use that turns out the offer might be better if that use was there. Again, we have standards, but I I'm not at the place where I would feel comfortable saying, "Here are the uses I don't want," and it turns out we just bit our bit ourselves off. I agree. >> Yeah. >> It is kind of interesting too the the thought of if we could share more what the plan is, what we would do with these funds that come from the sale of this. It would be interesting to see if that changes the public perception at all of >> of doing this project versus not doing a project, right? because you know their perception is like why would we have this developed if it's going to go to pay for something that I don't want at all that doesn't impact us and so maybe that is something that would be worthwhile having a little more conversation around it having a little more clarity of where those funds would go because I think if you know people understood that it would make a a positive impact on their pocketbook somehow you know maybe they are more open to is moving forward. >> Be a conversation very sooner over later. >> Well, we have a lot of needs. >> Yeah. >> So, um council selected the broker CBRE the meeting with CBRE close session. trying to schedule for October 6 to review the Ryan offer, have them look at it and formally meet with the council to discuss any questions you have about the offer. Um, they're highly recommending to put this out and market it. That's something they want to do. Um, we know Ryan wants to move quickly, so we're trying to do that as soon as possible. One of the plans is as these offers come in, they'll come directly to council. Just want to make sure that that is the strategy going forward. And then do you have any kind of limit to listing in terms of how long you want to list the property? They believe if you market it, you will have interest. So you will have interest. So it's kind of knowing that we have an offer. >> One one thing I want to ask is >> are we we want to limit it to this likely uses because There was somebody that brought up if if you open this up, you're going to get like workforce housing. And one thing I heard very highly from the community focal study was they didn't really want more housing development. Now, they didn't some of them didn't want anything, right? I get it. Um I like corn fields, too. they just don't bring any tax revenue to help sustain some of the costs that are going on. Um, do we want to limit it to this or do you want to open it to workforce housing because that could be one of your potential uh people that would would want to go after it. Then they get into I think there's some state bonding they get into and stuff like that. I'm personally I'd like to keep it focused, but that's me >> specifically talking then with parcel three because that wouldn't be >> I'm talking parcel one and two right now because that's all that we have. >> That's sonism. >> It's business park. >> It's business park. Yeah, it wouldn't be allowed in. >> All right, problem solved. >> There you go. >> All right. Maybe I just, you know, shut my mouth. possible. >> No, I appreciate it. >> Do you have a timing on the list so we can talk to CBR this week and set some expectations on, you know, we have an offer? It's a good offer. >> Yeah. >> Like, how long do you want to list marketing list? I think Ryan wants to know too. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, I I Ryan is a very well has a great reputation, right? So, um CBR E things thinks get a listing and it's not gonna I also don't want to, you know, make Ryan really mad, but um I think it's fair to us to see what else is out there. I think it's a fair question to ask. >> This is where in the meeting last week, he mentioned we probably could expect five to six more leads is kind of what he was thinking. >> Okay. And I certainly wouldn't want it past a 60-day listing because I mean, we want to make sure we're ready for construction season in the spring. I mean, this is going to take time. So, I 30 to 45 days seems more than enough because even after listing, there's still 42 other steps. So >> so parcel three to me this is completely different than parcels one and two through uli also. So um master plan mixed use developer should be identified that a singular vision to the uli plan. So basically what I'm saying here is considering kind of really refining that uli plan probably limiting the housing units. I mean, there's a game we have to play of like guessing wreck units here based on what's going to happen in one and two. So, >> where you talked about the buffers in one and two, I think that that really comes into play when you're talking about parcel three with >> the the development to the east of that and >> 38th Street to the north for sure. So we could promote buffers, open space, mitate nuisances, promote higher tax revenue like we saw in the study UI than the standard suburban development and we could plan we can market that plan to potential developers. So the next steps asking the council move forward you want to create a plan that we can market. The idea is that we would create this plan, have a vision for what the city wants, and then shop this vision as opposed to just anybody coming and saying, "I could do >> right >> this suburban development or I could do whatever, you know, I saw this plan." >> Yep. >> So, okay. The idea here too is have EDA involved in reviewing the plan to market. So, everyone would know obviously what this plan is. Council obviously would be involved and then we would have our dedicated page where we market this. We think this out for a little while. Try to actually solicit developers. We could do something similar to a TND but on a more suburban scale because I think we have an opportunity if you could have a few small businesses in the middle of this development that are neighborhood businesses. You really could attract people from Oakdale basically to come in businesses in Lake Elmo. That would be different than kind of the suburban development you see. So something to consider. So that's kind of what what we plan to do on parcel 3 as long as you're okay with >> Yes. I think those are thoughtful, intentional, and make sense. >> The other interesting to bring up is that Congress and New Urbanism is having their national conference in Minneapolis in 2027. So it's something that we plan on going to, Ashley and I, and we can talk to other developers throughout. they they do more of these kind of developments, you know, southeast Atlanta, Georgia, North Carolina, and maybe try to see people that find people that do this type of work and just see they be interested in the site, too. >> Maybe have something ready to give by that time. >> Exactly. >> All right. Sounds good. Sounds good. >> All right. Thank you, Ash. >> Yeah, he said the word Congress. Next, >> who's having the development conference here in 27? >> Congress of New Urbanism. >> Congress of New Urbanism. >> Do we need a Let's take a five minute point of privilege before we get into Mr. >> Clark stuff cuz that's going to be >> really long and drawn. >> Yes. Yeah. They're just >> they got to get a little energy out. >> They're not going to be able to contain it when you're up there. CNU CN has been like leading for traditional development since the '90s. >> But why are they called the Congress? >> Oh, I don't I don't know. >> It literally makes no sense. Why? >> They basically did SE like guy Andre Dwani did seaside the big one in Florida and then everything on that area in 38 in Florida kind of emulated it like Rosemary Beach and they like Susie No, I know. I noticed after theirs died that this one had low battery, but it just turned back on. So, >> whatever. Different people that do different things. Still here for the water. >> Yeah, for the water. >> It's because you've heard you've heard that Clark is an amazing presenter. I just want to hear Clark's presentation. >> What's going on? >> How are you? >> Good. Good seeing you. >> Here we're talking up Clark. >> Seriously, very good. got lots. >> Okay. Well, >> it's almost like you needed to set up that question >> and it's a really good answer to >> where it doesn't at least have batteries. If I were to go to my house right now and look for AA batteries, I'd be like, "Oh, which my son literally like puts batteries in like 22 different electronic drones and like at any point I don't know how to Sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. >> We can show you Guess what? >> All right. >> We're gonna jump back into the meeting here. We have uh Mr. Clerk Schroeder, our special projects manager, to discuss give an annual water update. >> Okay. I have a PowerPoint presentation here. There's quite a bit of information on it. Most of it's going to be review for city council. Um, and so if you see a slide that has links on it that you want to see, she can just click on the link and we can go into greater detail of that. Um, but you've seen most of this stuff already. I think the the greatest benefit of this powers point is it's on the website. our citizens can look at it if they have specific questions about a specific issue and staff for Lake Elmo have a point where all of this stuff is together. Uh I'm going to be going over these these issues basically the DNR White Bear Lake comprehensive work group PIFA long-term funding and then current research being done with PIFA. Um this is just a review for you of the 2012 lawsuit, the the five mile radius. There's the timeline of since 2012 on the DNR website you can click on. And of course, this led to the uh legislation that created the White Bear Lake Comprehensive Work Group. Uh this is a general timeline and it's at you can see we're on the uh on 2526 uh court of appeals reverse residential irrigation ban and approved 7590. And then uh we basically appealed that to the Supreme Court. Um and so this is kind of what's happened in the last year. Judge Litman uh ruled that the 7590 uh gallon per day condition and invalidated the residential irrigation ban. He felt the irrigation ban was underinclusive from a legal term. And that basically means uh the uh the original court order had residential irrigation ban but not commercial felt that was underinclusive. So therefore it felt the order was not enforcable. So we've had this what you would consider if it's not quite an injunction but the uh it's been contested so that it has not gone into effect. In 25 this this last year, um uh the court of appeals reversed that ruling. Basically said that Litman aired by universally invalidating the residential irrigation ban and by universally approving the 7590. Sent it back to Litman. Uh we appealed that decision to the Supreme Court for uh review. They denied. Litman retired. Uh, Judge Megan McKenzie required requested briefings. So, ever since April of this year, we've been trading back and forth briefings between the plaintiffs, the DNR, the cities, and we've been um working on responding to briefings and responding to responses to briefings. It's no trial. It's just she's just going to review the record and then rule uh by the end of this month actually. Um just a review for the conditions the we had a residential irrigation ban when the water level drops below 923.5 remains in effect until it reaches 924. requires all permites to develop a per capita water use plan to reduce residential per capita use of 75 gallons per day. Total capital use of 90 and our current use is around 110. requires public water suppliers to develop contingency plans to shift to water sources from from groundwater or surface water and requires permittes to report the DNR annually collective issues in this uh general region. Um, this is a review again. This is your five mile radius. In here, you'll see on on on section two here, 15 different studies. And so, that has all the different studies that we have been studying over the last since 2023. We have the current lake level link. So, you can see what White Bear Lake is. And you can go backwards for years. You can see what it's like. It's very inform educational protective level of 922. Um this is the that length there is for the 100redyear lake level. So you can see how the lake has gone up and down 8 feet over a hundred years. And we have our two and a $2.75 million allocated for this for this uh group. And we're bumping up against that. We're just coming to the end. We're actually shortening a couple of the studies because we're running out of money um on this $2.75 million. This is just an interesting slide here. This is your 10-year level. What I want to point out here is that uh we have the top blue line is the irrigation ban is lifted. The bottom line is irrigation ban. So if you look at the water level that you see on there, if the court ruling had been in effect, we would have had zero irrigation in the city of Lake Elmo for lawn irrigation going back to looks like the fall of 2022. We've never gotten up to 924 and obviously during this summer it is not even close to that. So this is a very significant uh issue for us uh how this court uh rules on this and also how the Whitebearer Lake uh group comes up with their solutions and I'll be going to that next year. Um so the goal of this work group is to come to consensus um the this fall and we're going to make a recommendation on how to finance that. So the the top link it's basically the main link for the for the work group possible funding sources. We basically went through and surveyed the 14 municipalities part of this group. Uh we all landed exactly where you think we would land which would be uh federal or state dollars DNR funding um you know some sort of users uh people around the lake. the light white bear lake. Uh the DNR studies have basically said that this is strictly about recreation. It doesn't affect the lake quality of the water. It doesn't affect the wildlife. It doesn't affect the uh grasses. >> The ecology is all good. >> Everything's good. All this is is about recreation. And I have reached out to the deer and I asked them are we doing other things in around the state for other lakes that have recreational deficits due to droughts. And they basically had responded that this is one that is currently tied in directly to overallocation of groundwater pumping around the lake. So no I didn't get any traction on my argument there. Um, so we're we're going to be coming to council me council uh members will be coming to city councils in the fall of 27 with a goal of having a preferred solution and funding signed on by all cities in March or April of 27 and then submitting to the Minnesota legislators uh by June of 27. And there's your timeline that lists the timelines of all the 15 studies, where we're at, what's completed, and uh there's probably close to a thousand pages of information we've developed since 2023 on this. Um we are right now as a group weighing in weighing in all of the 15 studies and with four variables for each one concerning what is the what is the overall effect on the lake elevation? Does it raise it you know a tenth of a foot? Does it raise three feet? What is the cost? What is the per cost per you know how many millions of dollars does it cost to raise it a foot? what is the capital? What is a 20-year current uh look current value of 20 years of capital and operating? And so we're putting all those variables together. Um I have asked for uh staff input here from the city, but it's very difficult if people don't have time to read a thousand pages and haven't spent three years doing this to weigh in on. I did check with other cities. They're pretty much just having the representative that has attended three years worth of meeting do the weigh in on that. If council members want to weigh in, I certainly can share that with you. It's due on the 17th. Um, but again, it's it's an awful lot of information. I'm struggling trying to fill it out myself. And I did actually ch have the council agree that we could fill out two surveys. one if there's federal or state or DNR or outside funding and one where the predominant heavy lifting would be on the cities because I make a couple different choices in my mind if we're paying for it or the state or the federal government's paying for it. There's slight variations in how I weigh that. So, they they did allow us to do that. These are just kind of a sampling. Um, and then I put some money in here because you can see these are, you know, we're talking about the 3M money later, $850 billion, a billion dollars. Some of these solutions are up to a billion dollars. And and so, you know, the you know, one of the I think one of my favorites is taking water from East Vagnes, treating it, pumping it up to a couple billion gallons a year directly into the lake. Um, and you know, that's one of the cheaper solutions. Uh, one of the things is we may end up with a permitting issue because at at only $176 million, it doesn't develop a treatment plant fully for let's say the chemistry of the lake, let's say magnesium, iron, some other, you know, phosphorus and stuff like that. that it basically treats it for invasive species. Uh, you know, which is a requirement of the DNR whenever you're transferring water like that. They could sue us again to stop that because they may not want the water quality of the lake to be uh degraded when we add different water. So, anyway, those are other things and we're there we are. Thank you. um Mississippi water um and you've heard about this um taking surface water and switching cities um anywhere from 250 to a billion dollars. Uh that's a super indepth study. There's six different varieties with six with all the different cities you could add to them. Lake Elmo is a oneoff. Um because I just I asked for that. Um because if we end up with a total irrigation ban or we end up with some sort of negative consequences within this city because of our water allocation, I want the city council be able to answer the citizens. Well, why don't we just go on St. Paul water? Well, you can't for $272 million plus about 6 million a year. So um >> yeah nothing. So um but I did ask for >> million a year in costs in cost 6 million a year and does that include operational cost for treatment? >> Um so yeah the 6 million was basically the operational operation and buying the water because you got to buy the water. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So yeah. So it's it's all that stuff. So the water is not exactly cheap either >> though. The water would be treated, >> right? >> Y >> yeah. um storm water um again taking water around and creating uh new piping systems and pumps to go all over this part of the world up to a billion redirect storm water. >> We should just buy all the houses around White Bear Lake for less than that. >> Well, many of you could um so so actually so ra this one right here raise the outlet pipe for White Bear Lake temporary buffering during dry period. So you're basically adding maybe you're adding I don't know 600 700 million gallons to it which would help but in a severe drought it would just buffer it but you'd have to buy out all these properties that are now in the hundredyear flood zone and it could be $500 million to buy out all these homes. >> Yeah. So it's you you're stealing from Peter to pay Paul but that is >> we have looked at that. You could expand Lake Elmo. >> Yeah. >> Own the entire lake and then just get rid of the loss. >> Yes. So >> it'll be a little kind of weird. >> Uh you know lawn irrigation limits, smart controllers, low turf grass, which you're aware of. We're doing the studies here using treated waste water to augment the weight lake. >> Um >> absolutely. >> Which is taking, you know, Met Council interceptors and >> Yeah. I'm sure people will be very receptive to that. So, some of the solutions um we have 15 different ones and there may be more than one. So, like the the Lake Elmo and you've heard this before, the Lake Elmo surface conversion for $272 million would change the lake level on one/tenth of one foot over 20 years. So, insignificant. um lawn irrigation would do maybe I for I can't pull that off maybe like a quarter of a foot you know you know type thing so a little bit but we're looking for up to three feet of elevation on the lake >> was there any study asked for what would happen if no shoreline owner was allowed to pull from the lake >> no um so people that live uh that have those preparing rights. They have the ability to do that. >> The thing the the the feeling from the DNR is it's not very much >> because the only thing you're really losing is evaporation. Everything, you know, you so if you take 10,000 gallons, you pump it up on your lawn, >> most of it's going to end up back in the lake plus the nutrients from your chem. >> They do a study on uh getting rid of the irrigation for the White Bear golf course. what that would do. >> No, they didn't do a study for that. >> I I like the option where we do something that like you know water from St. Paul. What I like about that is that lakes could have dropped down naturally anyway. And so after we quit pumping the water from the aquifer that they claim is affecting the lake level and we have a drought like we had this year, their lake level is still going to drop for and it won't be good for recreational purposes and then we can sit back and laugh. >> Yeah. So some of the, you know, some of these arguments, we kind of make light of them, but the it's the time has passed to make a case. >> Yeah. >> Um that, you know, we that we're not even arguing that anymore. So even though we make these different arguments, it's it's for just. >> So with these studies, because the the big ones are obviously the previous page, those are probably the most likely ones. But what happens? So say option one where it's pulling from Vadness Lake and turns out water chemistry worked and they're pumping two billion gallons and we have a couple wet years in a row. So part of O and MM is just making sure hey we're going to pump less this month because we had good rainfall. I assume that that flexibility is built into say oh no we're we're not going to let nature take its course and bring the lake up to 926 to help prepare for a drought. Like they're going to actively >> Yeah. So we we have done some initial studies so that the outlet of the lake um hang on. So the outlet from the lake um going up to 926. If you were to take your two billion gallons and pump up to the lake, the lake's going to not raise over 926. The issue is it's going to flow. So, it's flowing out into >> a bald eagle and then it's going to continue all the way down the chain there going that direction. And so, there are other complicating issues that would affect that much water flowing through there. So, you would have to dial it back. some of the issues with the RORO system. So, taking the interceptor, treating it through an RO system, and then dumping into the lake, you can't take an RO system and turn it on and turn it off because obviously you can't dump water in the lake during the winter. So you keep that and you would basically tr get a permit to inject into the aquifer >> which is done in places in the southwest California Arizona does that kind of stuff motans aren't used to that it's not allowed under current law very complicated but yeah so there are we even though we take a solution we're studying what are the secondary effects on that >> um one of the one of the issues that I'm trying to get consensus on now is so let's say we get this solution to the get it done by June. We get the legislators. Who's going to be driving the car? Is the council going to drive the car? Are us 14 cities going to get together and hire a lobbyist to do this? Uh DNR is not going to do this. um met council maybe uh a city association maybe maybe not I mean it's a pretty small subset so that's one of the things that I want the group to kind of think about and to you as city council members to think about just because we have a report doesn't mean anything's going to get done unless somebody's driving it and we have to have some smart people that are going to be getting it to the right committees at the right time to figure out this money aspect and It's going to be like you saw earlier significant amount of money no matter what we do. These are the 14 cities >> replace. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. This I've not updated this. Jason from the DNR is out and we got Randine now. So I mean this this is this is came off their older website. >> So council representative comprised of this information Gail is >> Yeah, G Gail actually attends most of these meetings. Yeah. So, she she's there all the time and she's very interested in it. >> Any other questions about White Bear Lake? Um like I said, we're going to have some sort of uh ruling coming down if we have to if the conditions go against us. the condition for an enforceable 7590 plan is like a 12 year or 12 month uh trial to get into it. I did ask the DNR last week. He did not have an answer for me. So if in if the condition of the 70 of the irrigation at 922 923.5 excuse me is in effect is that on the 22nd or do we get six months to do that? Do we get you know so I'm having so they're going to take that in consideration because I've I've advocated for you know six months for us to get this together because you'd have to print all sorts of new signs. You'd have to do it. You just can't flip switch in my mind to do that. And I think the DNR probably understands that. Any other questions about Wiper Lake? Okay. Um so 3M you're aware you know the settlement. Um these are the the links the the charter the past meeting the notes the annual report as my last update and I've given you in some of the my weekly updates the projected uh projects are more expensive than the conceptual estimates we came up with the conceptual water plan in 2021 and most of those costs have far exceeded that they're anticipating that it'll be fully allocated by the end of next year. Um, and that's what what does it mean to be out of money? So, the trustees and we just met with them last week actually. Uh, we have regular meetings here at the city with the trustees to make sure we're on the same page doing what we're doing. The trustees have been basically pushing to say when the when the 850 million is allocated even though it's not spent because we'll still be working on our project by till 2029 um 28 29 somewhere in there for our first plant say nothing about the second plant it's spent 3M has been advocating that the money is not is the money won't be spent until all the money is gone and fully out the or state regulations would proclude the trustees from just writing a check to a city without a project for reimbursement. It's set up as a strictly a reimbursement grant system, not a prepaid system. Um, so they're in mediation and as of last week when we talked to the trustee group, they it's going very slow. the discussions with the 3M and them to talk about what does it mean to be fully allocated and what does that look like and why why is that important? The 2007 consent decree that the state that the uh state had signed with 3M would be the next funding source. Uh it gets a little more complicated for us. It covers the Oakdale, Woodbury, Cottage Grove landfills, but not the Washington County landfill. Um, and then so these are some interesting documents. You got the 20 2007 decree, the 2018 settlement agreement, and then you have 325 documents in the exhibit from the 2018 settlement, which goes back to talk about all of 3M's uh thoughts about PIFA going back to the 60s. Um um so they're basically they're they're working on that. Um what are we doing here in Lake Elmo uh we completed our well number two um treatment plant and so that is uh working. This is a picture of the inside of that and that's that's going well. and uh the south treatment plant well number six as city council is aware we're working on uh we have a test well that got completed we have water quality we're looking for a treatment plan and having our treatment plant designer design a plan concerning the chemistry that we have that we'll be looking to purchase the property and and get the plant uh started in construction. One of the things that we are still uh discussing with the trustees and through 3M is uh pre-treatment. Um are we haven't decided if we need treat pre-treatment or have we? >> Okay. So it's it's the the tests are are not 100% conclusive but if we have magnesium and iron and the quantities are such if we don't do pre-treatment the uh whatever we use gak or ion exchange the median expires and fills up quicker because you have other uh minerals within there. 3M says that's not their problem. Um, our argument is, well, we wouldn't be drilling here and pumping contaminated water if it wasn't for you, so you should pay for pre-treatment. They only want to clean exactly for um treatment of contaminated water. We also are starting a a new group um that uh we're we're basically going to have uh Pete, our public works director, attend. We're going to get them up to speed on this because they're going to have a three-hour meeting talking specifically about what O andM looks like for treatment plants. So they're basically so the trustees in 3M are applying it equally and equitably across all the plants and the cities that are within this settlement fund and they are going down to the level of detail of should the pest control person uh the mowing of the grass uh what about cleaning I mean they're going to that level of detail to try to figure out and then of course our of course our main argument is but for do, we wouldn't have a treatment plan, you know. So, that's our argument. We're carrying that forward, but we are not driving that car. The trustees and 3M are the ones that make these agreements, and we live with them. So, North Treatment Plant uh for well number four and five were preliminary design. They um they have they are below they have a health index standard but they don't meet any regulation standard that treatment is currently required. Um and so we have our three wells four five and two. Two is fully treated. These two don't meet any of the regulations but they have a health index and the anticipation movement of the plume um is that in future years they will. And so we're doing preliminary work on sighting and doing some initial uh work trying to figure out where do we want to go with that when that time comes. And we're trying to what we're trying to do is reserve that money, the 45 million we'll need for that um before they totally expire. Um what's being done with PIFA in the city? So we have done some tests here in the city and if they not in the city they're harvesting the pods from our city and they're doing tests all over either the Midwest. Uh so superc critical water oxidation this is a picture of that you saw that last year that was a very interesting um uh test that is mostly an industrial concentrate pas destruction system they basically so after we would get done with our pas from either gak or ion exchange we have a concentrated pas slurry what do you do with it this is one way that you would destroy it super high pressures super high temperatures But it only really the digtor only works at 3 to six gallons per minute. Uh we have foam fractionation which has been very successful. Um, and we we had that in Tablin Park as you saw. That was that blue container that sat out there for a couple years and that basically takes the PIFA water agitates it with foam and the foam pops up to the top and you harvest the foam and it removes 98% of the PIFA that way. They're actually doing some of that investigation work now in Australia on waste water and sewage. the same system works to get PAS out of that which is something that the Met Council I did forward that study to them. Um so that that's good. We have a UV photochemical destruction Claros uh company is right in St. Paul and they basically have a very cutting edge uh UV system similar to what we use to clean our uh air uh during CO. We use UV lights to kill the viruses. This stuff is very similar, but it has a reactant that attaches to the PFO molecule that uh gets more energy in it. Anyway, um defllorination, electrochemical oxidation, thermal plasma, bio- remediation is what we're currently working on. We're working with a grant through freshwater society that also um and Bay West and we're bas looking for sites around Lake Elmo that have been exposed to PIFA for 50 years because in in the end microbes are going to eat everything. Microbes eat steel, microbes will eat plastic. All this stuff will eventually but it'll take 10,000 years for evolution to start figuring out how to eat pifas. So we're trying to look for microbes that will eat these eat pifas and then try to concentrate that and accelerate their growth and change because the ultimate goal of this is to try to inject something right into the ground that will destroy the pas and spread on the soils where our bioolids have been spread all over the nations for decades because all those other current systems we have have nothing they don't do anything for solids and dirt, stream beds, those kinds of things. So, this is ve this is very interesting. I I'm I'm enjoying working on this. Um, more projects are uh funded by the MPCA through the link there, project 10,0007 destruction program. Um, this will just breeze through. You've seen this our plumes influenced by the Tri Lakes area, the 10007 project. The MPC is investigating the extent and the magnitude of the co-mingled plume. And that's an important point when we start talking about the 2007 consent decree because it covers those three landfills but not the uh um Washington County landfill which is covered by the closed landfill program by the state. So they're ascertaining uh as we get these uh plumes intermixing which molecules come from which ones because in the end our our ultimate funding is going to be partly from 3M and partly from the state super fund site basically the closed landfill program. So, um, this is kind of why it's all contaminated was with the 100007 program starting from draining the Tri Lakes in 1987, creating a super highway that went through this watershed all the way down to the river. So, >> that that you know, they've always said that plume goes south by southeast, but that that doesn't account for the actions for hitting for Christ's sake well number two up by highway 36 and still water boulevard >> it does not it does not so there the so one of the things that they are trying to analyze is um how do municipal pumping change the d the natural direction of the flow >> you just can't account for some of the throw the fluial geomorphology that happens underground ground for the water to flow from place to place. Spell that. >> You want me to spell that for you? >> There's got to be an acronym for it. >> One of these. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that that's that's one of the unknown factors. And so when we when we start thinking about like even Grant, Grant has some PEOS in private wells. You can look on the link that we had earlier. There's a link there for all the wells. You've all seen that. There's wells up there that test positive. Where does that come from? We don't have any idea. And so, um, there's only so much money to test from a mass spectromedy standpoint to figure out which molecule and how do they trace it? >> Well, part of my concern is we're testing these things parts per million. Now, we're taking it down to the nano, right? I mean >> parts per trillion four parts per trillion is the current limits on on >> so it's being like question >> one one drop in 20 Olympic size swimming pools is four parts per trillion >> question what's safe for human consumption that's the that's the that's the question >> right who knows what it is but I I mean we right we have tricloroethylene right over here and that started out at 25 years ago when I was here it was like the safe level was 50 parts per billion and then they moved it down to like 15 and 12 and now it's down to five I think um you know because they haven't found what the safe level is yet. >> Is any tricloroethylene good for you? I would say no but >> probably not. Yeah, but >> all right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. We on multi-ben well array. You've seen this before. This is never going to happen because it's going to be $500 million and it's the the new information I have from last year though. Put it in for $500 million. It's got to run for $750. >> Good lord. >> Yes. So, you know, so >> why such a short life? Uh this is your this is your funding path. You've seen that before. Long-term funding. We've talked about that. Um again going through the lake ammo issues. This is Washington County landfill. The different molecules at the different spots. Um PFOA, PFOS. These are kind of our two that are currently regulated by the EPA. The other four that we had regulated by the Biden administration have been removed from regulation. They're the Gen X ones. Um and they basically are going to be re-evaluated to ascertain what is the safe level. Uh they felt the science on the safe level analysis was defective. And so we don't know what's going to happen with that. I would suspect some of these changes might I mean it puts us in a bad situation because as a city we want to put in 100-year solutions and if all of a sudden the levels of acceptability changes every four years it really hurts long-term municipalities. Um, we got control of the landfill in 95 landfill page link lake eml water page which we're always trying to update >> there. I got it all >> questions for Mr. Schroer. >> Questions for Mr. Schroeder. >> You guys know it all. >> No, we don't know it all. That was some good information there. There's a lot to cover. I yeah, I would encourage anyone who is watching this after the fact to, you know, look look at those links because there's a lot of information there. You can learn more about what we're doing as a city, how we're protecting your water and how we're working with funding and trying to get it paid for by the responsible parties and not resting on the taxpayers. But there's only so much we can do. >> Questions? >> Thank you for being on top of that. Yes, thank you. >> Um, future agenda items are in the packet. With that, I will adjourn this evening's meeting at 9:24. Thank you.