e e all right all right all right how's everyone doing tonight good I heard a whisper good that that'll do all right so welcome everybody to the Wednesday June 26th 2024 City viina Planning Commission meeting on behalf of the rest of the Planning Commission we are excited you are here tonight um with for all you in person and anyone tuning in remotely that kind of Engagement the Curiosity your feedback all of that's vital to this process as we navigate change together here in Idina specifically in regards to how we use our land I'll give you a quick rundown of the agenda so you know what to expect and when we get to certain items of the agenda I'll provide a little more context uh first we'll start with a call to order then roll call and we'll hit an approval of the meeting agenda and the prior meeting's minutes then we have the community comment period which is your chance as a citizen to speak about a matter not onto tonight's agenda and you'll have the opportunity to do so at one of the podium here then we do not have any public hearings tonight instead we just have one sketch plan review in our reports and recommendations section and we wrap up every meeting with chair and member comments and staff comments before adjournment uh before we start just want to reiterate that we are committed and the city is committed to your feedback getting it in a variety of ways the top one is our engagement website better together.org this didn't really exist a few years ago and this is the that net that captures a lot of what's going on in the city and that's the interface for any curious resident about a project a lot of potential projects and ongoing ones are on there including the sketch plan for tonight so residents have an idea of what we're about to talk to talk about and uh if we get any feedback through email it gets our it gets its way to us and we will we consider it before we make any recommendations again we have nothing binding tonight uh without a public hearing so tonight is just the sketch plan so without without further Ado we will move right into the meeting so call the meeting to order and then roll call please commissioner elire here commissioner Miranda here commissioner Padia here commissioner Smith here commissioner Schultz here commissioner Bornstein here commissioner felt here chair Bennett here thank you next we have the approval of tonight's meeting agenda if there are no proposed changes I'd welcome a motion motion to approve tonight's agenda second all those in favor say I I so moved next we have the approval of the prior meeting's minutes from June 12th of 2024 same thing if there's no proposed changes I'd welcome a motion approve I second all those in favor say I I I so moved all right next we have like I mentioned the community comment period of tonight's agenda and that is your opportunity for anyone who is here in person that would like to speak about a matter not onto tonight's agenda so anything you want to talk about besides 6016 Vernon Avenue come right ahead you have 3 minutes State your full name address the light will start green and red when your time's up but now is the time if you have anything you'd like to say you can come forward all right seeing none we'll move on if anyone has something next time come on ahead all right so again we don't have any public hearings um uh but we have a sketch plan review so just to give you some context of why we do this uh before the sketch plan review process it used to just jump right into a public hearing so when a a potential applicant proposes something the 60-day clock starts and staff puts together a staff report they provide a presentation and that comes before us to make a recommendation we took feedback from citizens as well as a Planning Commission this is probably over a decade ago right Carrie 15 years ago and uh we implemented a sketch plan review and that that allows us to give non-binding feedback to the potential proposal and to the applicant team to then incorporate into a hopefully better and more optimized U formal application which would then come forward as a public hearing and that would be your chance as a community member to come and speak speak for that but for tonight A Sketch plan review is simply a back and forth between us in the city and us in the applicant Carrie you want to fill anything in there or you good I'm good you covered it beautifully so yeah Carrie Teague the community development director will now provide a presentation about this thank you Carrie yes thank you chair members of the commission this is a site that the vast majority of you are extremely familiar with as we've had a couple of propos proposals on the site 6016 Vernon Avenue it's the keys Auto Body site just to quickly go through some of those previous requests originally the first request was for a restaurant to expand the building basically double the size of the building twostory restaurant they wanted some rooftop dining required a comprehensive plan change and a rezoning that project was denied then the green drop donation um donation center proposed to just remodel the site that also was denied so the the request before you this evening is for Station Pizza it would be a takeout and delivery only so no onsite uh seating here's a look at the site today um it was came to my attention that the original pictures that were in the packet showed some arbites within the planter box here those were removed so I updated that and we'll get those in the packet for the city council uh but those trees were removed so this is what the site looks like today it's guided in our comprehensive plan for medium density residential similar to the land uses to the West it's currently um zoned pcd4 planned commercial District so the only uses allowed within a pcd4 district includes a car wash auto repair and a gas station so as I mentioned the applicant is proposing just to remodel the existing building they would resurface the parking lot um currently it's U the pavement is in kind of a poor state of repair they would construct a six-foot fence along the west and North Lot line in addition to providing some landscaping and screening for the single family homes to the North and the higher density to the West again here's those it's labeled as existing trees but they they have been removed so what would be uh required as part of a formal request would be a rezoning from pcd4 to plan commercial District 1 so that is a zoning District that's found in some of our smaller commercial nodes 70th in France um 44th in France just a couple of examples Valley View and Wooddale another and also a comprehensive plan Amendment to ruide the site from medium density residential to some type of neighborhood commercial you may require uh recall with that with the original restaurant request we looked at reiding the site to Neighborhood node but it's tough to Define this as a node being just a single 16,000 foot lot so potentially it's a new designation neighborhood commercial and I'll touch on that a little bit um as we move along so this is our pyramid of discretion that we look at anytime we're amending the comprehensive plan the city has complete discretion to say yes or no so keep that in mind as we move through so with the comprehensive plan Amendment um with the donation center we looked at adding a new category that a neighborhood service type category anyway that project failed but perhaps what we could look at is a neighborhood commercial um designation so it would be a new land use designation within the comprehensive plan that would talk about small scale retail and Commercial uses building footprint R generally less than 2,000 square ft this this building is about 1100 1200 square ft to give you an idea of the size of that restaurant that was proposed that was about 2400 square feet with those additions that were were proposed in terms of our compliance table um the existing structure out there is not code compliant doesn't comply with the setback to Vernon or Eden Prairie Road to the north but it's all existing conditions so no variances would be needed they'd simply be using the existing site so areas of focus um for our discussion would be is this an appropriate land use for the site should the comprehensive plan be amended for commercial use and is the pcd1 zoning District appropriate um I sent out in an email and included in your packet all of the uses that are listed in the plan commercial district one to give you an idea of some of the uses that could be in the future um allowed on the site if the zoning is changed keep in mind that any of those uses if they wanted to expand for a larger building they'd need variances so it's one of those where um future determination if the land use were to change and expand to something larger the city would have the ability to say know based on the setbacks um so you would have some discretion in a future expansion or a future use so with that I can stand for any questions and the applicant is here to make a presentation as well thank you Carrie any questions from fellow Commissioners to carrye oh please come on someone yeah commission El thanks director Teague a couple of questions um I don't know if this is a fair question or not but from your experience but I I didn't see um like a buildable area chart in in your experience it seems like most uses of this particular lot would require some variances just because it's small and odd shaped is that is that fair does that fit your experience I think any building that's put on this site would require variances okay and then are you aware of any other places in our city where there is one parcel and a small one at that that's neighborhood commercial and everything within a considerable distance is either R1 or multif family yeah I I can't think of one okay yeah and the reason being this is there you know this used to be Highway 161 so it was a gas station along Vernon that used to be more of a major thoroughfare um so it's always had this automobile type zoning District but I'm not a I can't think of any off the top of my head where it's isolated like this so is there any real um distinction between what we were saying before neighborhood node and what we're saying now neighborhood commercial it's it's kind of same thing isn't it it it's is different words but the same idea it's it's it's honing in on specifically what can go there neighborhood node the description is a little more broad where this could be narrowed down to where we talk about small building size and small scale retail or commercial uses yeah it's still in effect a neighborhood node that's one neighborhood commercial node that's one partial large um last thing I don't is there any guidance in in uh in our in our planning system or standards about what's what is a when we should think it's a good idea to change the comprehensive plan and when we shouldn't yeah it's really at the discretion of Planning Commission with your recommendation and ultimately the city council to decide okay so it's up to us all right thank you car thank you director teag um just a just to uh continue just that thinking here a little bit um I know with the neighborhood service I think is what we were looking at prior for the um Green Drop idea is is there a real difference between neighborhood service and neighborhood commercial just in that I believe the description that we were looking at the last time was more a service Orient oriented type um businesses where this would allow the retail and Commercial uses allowed in the PCD one District so a little more broad gotcha so the the the you know whether it's neighborhood uh commer commercial neighborhood service it's just really coming up with a uh just a description specific for this location right it is it could be used elsewhere you know as we get into our next comprehensive Plan update here in a couple of years you know maybe this is one that we look at elsewhere yeah that's just yeah that's going to be my my next question if there's any other opportunities like this small area plots like this that maybe not as big for a node but could fit a commercial or a service type orientation if we could use that same language and then apply to other parts of the city where we have lots that are this size we could all right thank you Mar weather on under the um pcd1 are there um guidelines for hours of operation of a business there are not um they are proposing specific hours you know perhaps it could be with a formal application it's something that we can add as a condition um for the site plan review um that could be tied to the site and some type of a land use Covenant that would go along with that okay I was just going to add depending on the use like if this were an auto body shop there are certain hours there are limitations in the hours I it's like 6:00 a.m. till 10:00 p.m. or you can't have anything from 11:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. if it's an auto body shop they have some things in there that piggy back and existing zoning yeah like PCD one and then another question is um are there any parking guidelines for yeah so a delivery and takeout when I ran the calculations I did it based on a restaurant um thinking that it you know that's the most similar use and as I recall based on the square footage of the building 12 spaces would be required and they would have 21 stalls with the repaving um so it would be code compliant for a restaurant of this size I don't believe they would likely use all of those stalls so that might be something that we look at as part of the site plan can they reduce some of the parking create more green space that's a possibility and that's something that we could make as a condition of the of a formal application a formal application okay and then the only other question I was wondering about is you know resoning one specific parcel and maybe that's a question for the rest of us at the end of this in our discussions but maybe before I do that ask ask your thoughts about resoning one specific parcel yeah with most of our rezoning requests it is just for one parcel um this being unique in that it's already zoned commercial very isolated from any other type of use but this would just be a rezoning to a what would seem to me is a less intense zoning District than the pcd4 where you could have a car wash you know Auto Repair you just looking at that lot I mean you know a lot about it and you've been dealing with these applications for a while now is there something kind of pragmatic about it's or is are there practical limitations associated with just the inherent conditions of it that are going to make building multi family whatever it's guided for right now in the comprehensive plan unlikely or impossible I mean you know we see a lot of proposals for really small lot multif family sometimes and it's just so difficult to even consider those how realistic is it that someone could even build a multif family project on this yeah that's a great question because it is it's it's got the limitation of a requiring a street setback along the north lot line so they need a 35 foot setback back here as well as a street setback on Vernon so there's you can't put a structure really anywhere on this site that doesn't require a variance we looked at so if this were it's guided for medium density residential If This Were rezoned for that type of a use variances would be required this is somewhat similar and I I think I made this comparison the last time to the four unit the two duplexes being built at Valley View and Wooddale that lot over there is about 11,000 square ft this is 16,000 Square ft so this is actually a little bit larger but it would still require variances to get four units would be the maximum density under the medium density um designation in the comprehensive plan uh just one quick question is is it possible at all to have access or do anything W um from Eden Prairie Road you know kind of the back of it um or is that kind of out of the question in terms of access and yeah I it's there is access available off Eden prey Road however for a commercial use like this Vernon is the most appropriate we wouldn't want all the commercial traffic to go through the residential district so but even if somebody wanted to they I mean there's no they'd have to walk through the bushes or something right I mean if they were parking on Eden Prairie Road there it's really no practical access correct yeah and especially and that's not possible I mean that's not um something that could change or something that's part of the plan or could be yeah it's tough to say what what may or may not happen in the future someone may request that but it could be a condition with a formal application if we don't want to allow any access along here you know um with the fence we could condition no openings a person could still walk around this way it it would seem to me we would want to allow pedestrians through there um but maybe not necessarily A vehicular access thanks so we're working with Consultants now to kind of redefine our zoning code or whatever so is this whole pcd1 thing is going to be going away or um I don't believe well it's it's tough to determine we're doing the audit and what the next phase um looks like it's hard to determine but I would Invision most cities don't have a long list of 100 150 different retail users I could see that being condensed um to a more simpler a simple term retail commercial whatever that may be um so I could see something like that happening but changing all of our zoning districts um tough to say at this point yeah I don't see any philatelic shops or laundrettes in the neighborhood so thanks I got a couple questions for you so uh speaking of the area north I mean it's basically like a 60ft wide you know right away can you explain the history of that vacated Street or what that is intended to ever do longterm city-wise besides hold a very narrow sidewalk yeah I don't I apologize I don't know the history of yeah you can see it good on that map yep where a road connection could be made it's a would be an extremely awkward intersection to have basically four legs five legs um I guess a question traffic safety issue and I guess the question then is like you know there's times where I mean even Valley View Woodale you know the city had a little chunk of like really unusable property but then it made sense to kind of bargain and let the potential redeveloper maybe get a piece of that to make their thing pencil and puzzle better it seems like we have a bunch of extra space there that isn't being optimally used in any way except maybe just an open buffer to the neighbors but it it's certainly not used well right I mean it's a small little sidewalk in a 60 foot wide trough I I like has that come up in any of the potential discussions or proposals with prior applicants yeah we really haven't talked about that um okay and then I guess then the second question and you noted it in the report but if you look at both sides of Vernon like almost the entire stretch that North section of this block is like the only one without a sidewalk both on the north and south side it's pretty much it like pretty much has people bypass with that sidewalk that takes you to Eden Prairie Road so I know some of the condition or expectation would be on the developer however I've seen the county and city or whoever is building sidewalks farther down Vernon so is there anything in the you know in the near future that is expecting to kind of finish that sidewalk connection on this final Block it's like it's like the only one missing for some reason yeah I'm not aware of anything in the near future but I seem to recall with those previous requests we were looking at either getting easements or having that segment on done on this on this site um to kind of plan for the future when that does come okay yeah all right that's all I got for now yeah commissioner Miranda well just a little history thing for your first question um about Eden Prairie Road my understanding is that before ver Vernon Avenue was a very straight road so it was done in the age of modern equipment for building freeways or whatever so before that when a Dina was just a a farming Village or whatever um Eden Avenue was is part of Eden Prairie Road and so they eventually straightened it made it Vernon Avenue and so everything that's Eden Prairie Road or Eden whatever was part of the Eden Prairie Road was connected to Dina to Eden Prairie so I just one more question to follow up on commissioner Miranda's uh question about the zoning audit so part of the project As I understood it was to simplify I think he was referring to that but I think another part of it was to help our zoning match the comprehensive plan more closely so wouldn't that fit here where we have uh a zoning classification which does not fit the comprehensive plan and has not and has been repeatedly brought up over the past couple years yes we definitely want to reconcile our discrepancy here okay um you know if this project fails you know the the property owner has been actively seeking some type of a use um but perhaps if three commercial type um operations fail maybe we look at proactive proactively rezoning to match the comprehensive plan so that is a possibility for the future all right thank you maybe more of a comment but I think someone asked maybe you asked a question just about like buildable footprint but also um pcd4 is limited to like A3 floor area ratio correct where pcd1 is limited to a 1.0 floor area ratio So currently how it zoned like you're also limited with what and how you could build on it for that so just even that shift would provide more flexibility in the future it would but they would still need variances for the setback so city has a little discretion there but it but you'd have the potential where you would have a variance for the the Flor ratio right yes yep okay that's a good point yeah I guess I was wondering is it standard to add another zoning division for during like a Planning Commission meeting compared to like a comprehensive plan adjustment for like adding that neighborhood commercial or whatever yeah we typically when there's a comprehensive plan Amendment usually a rezoning goes with it so we do them at the same time so there aren't typically occurring during Planning Commission meetings here right well if I'm following the question so this is a sketch plan just to give them you informal non-binding feedback on a potential um should a formal application be made they would request a comprehensive plan Amendment and a rezoning the comprehensive plan amendment requires a four fifths vote of the of the city council and three- fifths for the rezoning but it is it is something that the Planning Commission would take up in the future thank you was part of your question just the creation of potentially a new designation or was it yeah yeah during during a Planning Commission meeting so is that part of it I mean just the neighborhood commercial it's that would be the amendment to the comprehensive plan it's new land use category within it's not really well defined in in that at all right not currently correct yeah that's where with the first request we went with an existing category in the comprehensive plan but that seemed to be not well received because this really isn't a node it's not multiple properties so I mean we still we could go and use that designation if we wanted to I'm just throwing that idea out as a possibility oh thank you any other questions for Carrie thank you Carrie we'll probably have more questions later uh now is the time though we'd welcome the applicant team to come forward just state your name address uh and then walk us through what you're proposing uh even my name is Jesse HR I'm with momentum Design Group I'm the architect on the project or will be the architect project if there is a project uh and yeah we we're here um essentially just to get feedback we we need to know kind of is this seem does this seem like a right use we feel like it's a good fit for this particular property given the difficulties of of the the the shape and size and the location uh we feel like it's a good a good fit obviously but we need to hear that from you in order to know whether or not we can move forward uh We've uh spoken with the um with the neighborhood we had a neighborhood meeting last week I love to give you kind of a quick rundown of some of the highlights of what we sort of learned what we heard there uh obviously eventually they'll have an opportunity to speak to you directly about any of this but um you know a couple of things that came up were uh one of them was was concerned about separation with the neighborhood uh you know some of the comments I know that we've heard already were talking about opening the you know possibly allowing a pedestrian connection for example that was something the neighbors didn't want uh at least the neighbors that spoke to us they were very happy to see a a fence that ran all the way across the top uh of on the North side there with all of the the Landscaping on the outside of the fence um because they're concerned with people parking in their neighborhood and then walking to the uh walking to the the restaurant so um so that was uh definitely some feedback that we had uh and that plays in a little bit to the parking as well so the the typical peak hours the thought here is that we're probably looking at uh let me just make sure I get my numbers right um yeah the probably about five employees uh would be actually working in the in the the facility itself and then three um drivers uh delivery drivers so about eight of those parking stalls give or take would be taken up by the by the employees that leaves that about 12 uh 12 or so my math is right I might be a little off uh the uh of sort of people for to stop and and pick up it's unlikely that we would actually have 12 there at any given time uh that seemed like a lot for one you know for what's effectively a 10-minute transaction at worst we would think uh but but we did want to make we want to show the the neighborhood we want to make it clear to them we are not going to be having people filling up your streets uh parking in front of your driveway to run over and pick up their pizza so we just wanted to kind of clear that the current um in terms of the parking the current parking lot is actually larger than what we're showing right now it continues all the way up to the property line the fence is on the property line on that north and west side of the of the the building uh but but once we sort of pull it in uh to you know we're moving that that fence back uh essentially not we'll build a new fence but uh we'll be uh pulling that fence back adding the additional Landscaping that sort of shrinks down the the the parking lot a little bit um so it's not as much as it is today but it's it's still enough that we want to be a comfort comfortable margin uh to avoid any spillover of traffic um other things were that were asked there people want to know where the dumpster location was there's an existing concrete pad on the west side of the building that we would likely be using uh you know and eventually we'll be designing that to be screened and and follow all the rules that it needs to uh the other question was um would we have uh bike parking uh and so again there's an existing pad it's actually on the north side of the building uh that we think will work very well for it ex that one actually doesn't show up on the drawing unfortunately but uh and in fact we weren't sure we were going to to keep it originally uh we were thinking we might just tear that out because we didn't think we had a real good use for it but actually looking at it it's not in bad too bad shape we think we'd keep it and use it for the for put put bike racks there um uh obviously concerns about future use that was the biggest concern we heard we had a lot of people who um you know were interested in what we were doing they liked what we were doing they liked the uh the proposal for a uh for the the business use that be were suggesting but they're concerned about the future they want to know that you know we aren't going to change the the zoning and then our business fails and then they can come in there and somebody can just build whatever they want uh and so we certainly understand their concerns we are looking for the Adaptive reuse of an existing building for a delivery and Carry Out only food service that's what we are looking for right what that looks like in terms of your zoning in terms of your rules we want to work with the city to figure that out we just want to path forward to kind of make that happen uh that addresses their concerns as well as allowing us to put in what we think is a good product uh something that's valuable and useful in that location that works in that location which is otherwise a very difficult location you've had some discussion about that already tonight about you know the setbacks required and the the the possibility of even building something there that that any developer could could make sense out of so we're here to just find out out do you guys think it's a a use that makes sense and is there a path forward for us to make that happen have any questions certainly ask me Jake the owner is here as well if you had questions about the operations of the restaurant for example yeah could you give us like a history of and you have that minona location currently correct maybe just give us a rundown of you know what you do what's your vision uh yeah so we've been in minona for eight years approximately I didn't start that restaurant but I got involved a year after it was open um and we do we've grown considerably we're still growing really fast um we we even with the dinein we have a big patio in uh dinein space and we still do about 50% takeout which is what I anticipate we would do at this new store and I know what that looks like as far as parking and flow and whatnot we're talked about a 10-minute transaction for a takeout that would be a massive villy on on our part um so we are good at at takeout and delivery we're really fast um and flow wise we would that parking there would be not an issue at all which I know was the biggest concern in fact I actually looked at the space um three one three years ago somebody told me it was coming available and I said you can't bark it you know and I and I forgot about it until that the process drug on and I came up with this concept was we it would be new for us but I'm confident in the ability to be successful there based on what we do now thank you for that guess I'd open it to just fellow Commissioners ask you guys any questions and and then probably at the end we'll share feedback but maybe questions first yeah commissioner Smith I can start um so just a little bit more about the operation I know it's not too much parking where there's going to be a whole lot of parking there but um how would this model work is it like a food delivery service that you would contract with and they would like if I go into Uber Eats for example um or grab Hub or one of these sites um then you would contract with a food service company they would come here just pick it up deliver it um or are they fully employed by by your company to do the service yeah so we currently do both and that's what I would anticipate doing there we have our own drivers um as far as uh the split of it I would say it's pretty equal to what we deliver and what other services deliver and it it it really from from a flow standpoint it really doesn't matter I mean it's whether someone picks it up or the Uber driver or the door Dash driver picks it up it's still a car coming in walks in we hand them their food so um I you know without that's that's that that's the plan to do to use we use door Dash and Uber Eats and our drivers which is what we would unless something changes or somebody new comes into the market or whatnot but that's what we envision and they would and sorry and I would say with with regard to that um you know once we get down to Brass tax on the parking we'd probably we might even consider having like a third party designated spot or something where they they could park if that made it easier I don't really see any advantage to that but there's things that we can do there yeah just a quick followup I'm sure you've done maybe some market research or stuff like that like what kind of volume if you can even share with us like is this a spot that once you utilize it you're kind of capped at a certain service level or is there an opportunity that you could even expand it you know maybe create a larger kitchen cuz the volume just increased everyone wants to pick up your pizzas on Fridays what does the flow like during the week is it really slow Monday through Wednesday and then movie night Friday Saturday Sunday the volume is really high like what's kind of that that um sense of volume and Flor tro a week yeah um so we're definitely busiest in the summer but we have a patio so that would probably change at this site um although you know it's we're busy we're pretty busy all the time we're extra busy on Saturday or Fridays and Saturdays Sunday nights uh we get pretty busy and you know for example Sunday nights we do a lot of takeout and delivery um Friday nights everything is busy um during the week you know dinner hours are we do most of our business currently at night and I don't know what you know I think in in this new location we'd probably push more for you know lunch type catering to offices and whatnot that obviously got disrupted with covid we were on our way to building that and then nobody went to the office anymore um but that's coming back so but so definitely you know it almost it's Monday is our slowest day Friday Saturday our busiest days and it's basically a you know an incline from between the two of them as far as flow um as far as volume are you wondering like what we're performing as far as sales or are you just saying as far as general flow yeah just just the general flow I think you you explain it pretty well where maybe like the morning time is not so much evening time at spikes up and then as you go into the weekend it's probably where you see more of the traffic and then it kind of slows on maybe like Monday yeah um just to give residents a sense of like what to expect throughout the week yeah and and I what I will say there is generally what we do at our restaurant is we spend all day prepping um we do a lunch service but it's a small fraction of our of our total sales so there would be you know prep we'd be prepping over there really until dinner every day with some food going out the door what I anticipate thank you first question is an easy one what is your name my name is Jake schaer I live in Idina right over by Birch Crest Park thank you um um I thought that there was something in the materials that were presented that had a sidewalk um but we're not seeing a sidewalk on here oh Jesse Yeah I think that was in uh director teague's um comments it wasn't in in our original proposal we have no necessary uh uh we have no reason to not want a sidewalk sidewalk is fine uh with us uh we did have a number of uh neighbors who came up who said that they'd be they'd be walking to this place all the time to pick up a pizza uh so I think that's certainly not something we would object to you wouldn't we would not Che to okay um and then um to pick up I was going to ask anyway um the questions uh that commissioner Smith um started I was going to ask specifically what percentage of your daily sales are in the between say four and six in your other other store I don't have that I mean I would let me just do some quick math in my head here probably between four and six I would say between four and seven probably 70% it's hard to pin down four and or five and it's five and seven is really our busiest time currently but that can change you know for a lot of reasons at a new location but we do most of our business not most probably half of our business between like in the we probably do 70% of our business in the two and a half hours of the busiest time of the day that moves around some days it starts at 4:30 sometimes it starts at 7 so it just it's okay there's no real exact science to that okay my my guess was 80% but um I'll I'm happy to go with 70 and about how how big is your location and exactly where is it your other location it's on minetonka Boulevard uh between Highway 100 or Highway 169 and 494 there's a People's Organic and a Dairy Queen over there um by Big Willow Park and our store I think right now it's an old gas station um I don't even know I would say 1,700 Square F feet maybe with the p and then we have a patio so do you have an estimation based upon the size what this facility is of how many pizzas you'd sell on a busy day on a on a Friday say Friday night I mean I would say that I don't know I don't know that there's a correlation between the size of our store and this case and sales just because they're all going to be leaving the building um but you have capacities for for yeah and and cooking capacities and only so many pizza ovens we do and and we would build this for you know to plan on growth um this kitchen would be five times the size of our current kitchen actually um we do a lot out of a very little space over there um but a a busy Friday night or a busy Friday is Fridays are a busier lunch you know 300 pizzas type thing okay and that's of course we have D in and that wouldn't probably happen with just takeout yeah I'm just doing some back of the napkin calculations I'm the accountant on on on the the commission okay thank going down the line blue so this to me really feels more like an industrial operation I feel like this sort of um business would be great in a Dina in some place like you know some side street in um you know the greater kill District or somewhere around Southdale or something where you know there's large car capacity uh which might be unused and and there's a lot going on there and such um you know I don't think I mean your plans physically fit the land I mean there's no argument about that um but the the question to me is does it fit what you know we as a city want in this area and so there there's um single family homes North and South there's high density housing along the corridor um which could be good for your business um but it's all car driven I mean you know everything here is about getting cars in and out of here and I just think it's going to add in certain parts of the day add a lot of traffic add a lot of um friction for you know this is one of the few streets in a Dina that has bike Lanes along the length of it and now you're going to have be having delivery drivers who are in a rush um you know trying to get in out of there and customers coming in and out and they're not even staying they're just coming in to get a pizza or what what their order and leave and so again this would be a great business for a din I just don't think this is the right place for it so I think this is like the worst possible location for it so um it's going to um I mean it's basically a a small industrial facility um you know surrounded by housing and and nothing else and any plans the city might have for making this street a future you know Transit Corridor which the city needs an East West Corridor um there is an area we're discussing in our future uh areas of change for the city um it just it's counter to everything I think the city is really trying to do here so in my estimation this is just a complete a complete no-o for me I would love to see it somewhere else in a Dina like the two other places I mentioned uh would be an ideal fit we'd love to have your business here and whatever um but this particular location I just it's just a complete noo for me so thank you just a question follow up to your comment there is it how the restaurant operationally is making it such or is it is it the use in general I just well right so um so there was a restaurant proposal before yeah and actually I was against that one too although I think it was better again not the food not anything you're doing um because it was sit down so it was better I think because there would be less turnover right so the less turnover is um the fewer cars are going in and out the less conflict there is people making left-hand turns all that sort of stuff um sorry I used to be on the Transportation Commission so um you know and we're trying to reduce VMT we have a climate action plan right we're trying to ruce VMT this is the complete opposite of that um and there's not a lot of there's high density housing right along the street but nowhere else and so the drivers going to be driving you know a significant distance to their destination so you're going to need a bunch of them so it's and by having so the previous owner the previous uh proposal for a restaurant was going to have uh was dining space there so but this entire thing used as a kitchen which is why I'm saying it's industrial right so so this is like you know food manufacturing basically right so so they're producing a ton of food because they're just making food they're not serving people they're not you know they're just putting it in boxes and having it shipped basically out of their or whatever so whether it's a delivery driver or somebody picking it up and there'll be a few people I mean if it ever did get approved I would definitely want a hole in that fence because we would like to have people from the neighborhood you know even if they say they're not going to do it people are going to want to eat here or whatever but it's pretty low density so you're not going to have hundreds of people a night doing that or anything so it's it's all the land uses around it you know I mean you can't do anything in isolation right it's all the land uses around it combined with with what this one our lone East West Route in a d that could really support Transit there's no other East West Street um that can really do it the way Veron can um and it would connect Grand View which has the 46 bus with you know uh the green line extension um and connect our other Lincoln and lary which we're also talking about um this is an amazing location right but and it's awkward for everybody involved for the neighbors for the business owner and for the city because of its shape and size and whatever and its previous grandfathering I mean there's so much that's really hard about this right um but an industrial food facility where you're just cranking out tons of food for delivery and pickup where you're going to have tons of cars um just is not I don't think the neighbors I think they're really I don't think they realize how how busy it's going to be um maybe not right away but eventually if it becomes successful um it's like a little Factory and you know and that's good you know somewhere else you know I D the has places for that we have two industrial districts in the city and that would be a perfect location for it but I I just feel this is is it would it it makes every time we do something like this like when we when I first joined the commission and um the bank no was it the bank the bank or the building next to it no was the bank was being built on France Avenue and you know it's like oh we wanted to set we wanted the parking lot in front even though we said that wasn't our plan whatever it was like oh but the building next door did that and it was they had a very special use case well now it becomes president you know I don't want to set president here right or if we do set president it's for the right thing for the kinds of thing the city wants in the future so I just think this use is wrong I think this this intensity of use is certainly is wrong for this location thank you well thanks for expanding about upon that can I just touch on one thing uh one you know I would I think an argument could be made that that location because it is where it is versus in an industrial area I mean we do I would say a big majority of our customers that pick up do it because they're essentially driving by and they know they're going to drive by there and they don't have to go home and come back cuz they're you know we're in a residential area currently and in this location is I think we would you know and add to your point it wouldn't be hundreds of people but to get food in that in that Corridor over there somebody's getting in their car and going somewhere or having it delivered already because there's nothing over there and we would be an option that is right there sure but this just continues you know the car hegemony and so what we're trying to do as a city is break away from that and design things in the future so that you don't need a car to get everywhere and you don't you know have to use a car to get everything and so um you know drive-ins drive-throughs all that sort of thing it doesn't meet our climate action plan at all and I don't know why the city has not acted on that yet but um we we just need to get rid of this kind of use um and especially near a neighborhood like this let's just go around the line okay it easy thanks for coming to speak with us tonight a couple of questions um could you say a few words about why you have more parking spaces than the minimum and kind of related question to that is uh how important is controlling Redevelopment cost to your business model I mean I'm generally in favor of adaptive reuse but it seems like we would prefer a little more Greenery and a little less black top if if it's not going to be actively used so can you just say a little bit more about that yeah um well we don't want to be underp parked for starters and I you know even and I don't know if this is the right thing to say or not but those uh whatever it is three spots to the south of the building there that's where our employees would probably tandem Park just because we'd be there for the day so it actually really frees up parking um certainly not opposed to put it in green spaces wherever it's suitable but I you know nobody it doesn't the reason that I passed on this from the beginning or in the beginning was because of parking I didn't want to be in a situation where we were pushing people into the neighborhood or they were just you know making laps because there was nowhere to park okay so for your for your business model you don't think you're over parked overp parked overp parked you think you have the right about I don't I I would rather be overp parked than underp parked I guess so I don't I can't I don't think we're I don't think we're overp parked I mean I don't think we're underp parked I don't and I I wouldn't be doing it if I thought we were underp parked okay so it's somewhere in there I think we're good with that parking okay just um U this is more a matter of curiosity than anything else do you have your own delivery vehicles or do your drivers Supply them uh drivers do you I don't know do you have Main maintenance standards for those we do like a monthly um for insurance purposes monthly checklist and whatnot but I I don't know about if I would say maintenance standards I'm not sure so if you had a if you had a driver with busted Muffler would he would he drive is what I'm trying to get at I mean I I don't we we've never run into a problem like that um that would be something to you know we can we have control over that if we show up with that monster truck that is unmuffled you know that's a problem all right thank you every other you may have talked about this but I'm going to ask you to do it again um your other space has eeden pickup and take out this is going to be delivery or pickup what do you think is going to be the split between pick up in delivery uh heavy pickup probably I mean if it's consistent with what we are I don't know the number off the top of my head but it's we definitely do considerably more pickup than delivery people heading on the way home or um and I'm I'm G to push back on Lou just a little bit because I Rod my bike here tonight if it's nice out out you know and it's sunny late I'm going to ride my bike and I pick um locations in the neighborhood to go out to eat based on the fact that I can ride my bike there throw it on the back and go home and you know if it's nice and I'm kind of thinking Some people in the neighborhood would like to be able to walk here and um and we can talk more about it later but my my question is about the parking too there's a couple of parking areas on um spaces on here that seem that I would feel uncomfortable pulling my car into because I would be pulling out in like the first one all the way to the right I'd be pulling back into traffic I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to kind of watch what's coming um from Vernon from that first base um and the other thing this is I like the fact that we'll get into this later but at 1270 Square ft we're kind of at the f they are for pcd1 and they can't necessarily build much more um we're to 10th 16 10% oh okay and that could be part of the condition you'd be willing to have that be part of the condition to keep the existing footprint okay okay if I could address the the the parking issue there are uh a number of things about the the sketch PL here that obviously are loose and one of those is really going to be the interaction between uh the those curb cuts when we get a civil engineer involved we work with the city Engineers to kind of best sort of figure these things out uh I mean that's that's all part of the design process that hasn't taken place at this point uh so I mean I I see your point and it will be something needs to be addressed uh and maybe we can't get 21 maybe it's got to be 20 and obviously Jake's got to ultimately decide what he can live with um but but but yeah I mean we sort of know that there's additional work that needs to be done here in terms of the design and I forgot to say this earlier but I commend you I mean I think this plan just one plan existing building was really easy to read and is the way the sketch plan is supposed to be that you're not supposed to been a ton of work on it so I appreciate those things I want to spend Jake's money if you guys all say we don't want this go away we want to know that sooner rather than later and and with that parking now that I'm looking at it I mean generally we don't we don't allow our Park our current employees to park in our lot we've got parking around the building but it might be that we end up put having employees Park in the least desirable furthest away spots because they're not going to move so that's another thing that once we had that plan we would get that tidied up any questions I question okay do you have any questions just keep looking this way yeah questions more questions so just a quick question here um service area so when you set up this business how far would you serve customers is it I know it's going to be all up Dino most likely but do you extend into Bloomington do you extend into Minneapolis like kind of what are your boundaries for service no well we would have our for our drivers we would have a a limited uh delivery area that's where that's where the third parties come in they might take a pizza to Bloomington but that you know that's no skin off our back um and I don't even you know without without having drawn a circle around the property and seen I mean I know he D very well I've lived here a long time but um we may not even we may not reach the furthest Corners if we done and with our drivers that might be a pickup slash thirdparty deal last question and I know this is kind of more on the expansion side but I feel like I should ask it still I'm sure you've heard about the concept of of a ghost kitchen of a ghost kitchen yeah so is this something that you guys would be looking at in the future let's just say I'm a Thai restaurant in Minneapolis and I want to set up a or borrow or contract with another kitchen locally here in Nike Dino you guys would not just do pizzas but you might also deliver food and create a catering space for other types of companies I mean if it goes like I hope it goes we won't be doing any of that because we won't have time I would say as far as using the K we we will be maximizing our kitchen and building it accordingly and not set up for other people to be using our space I mean that would that sounds like a an alternative if we were failing to me maybe but hopefully we don't ever get there gotcha um you know just to think about velocity a little bit here you know cars coming in cars coming out you kind of mentioned that the high point would be between 5 and 7 roughly 300 pieces a day you know if it's like 80% in that time that's 240 pizzas roughly or so um and you think you have enough parking space I think the concern that we are trying to also think about is you know what's the amount of volume going through here every day and throughout the week um and so I know we'll get to the comment section but um just looking at you know we're in an Avenue cars coming in cars coming out pedestrians bik ERS going up and down that street would they would they create any opportunities for accidents right like certain times of day I'm just trying to match regular uh resident volume on that street versus your peak hours of when you would have volume coming through I'm just trying to balance those so I think that's the piece that um I know the parking study you kind of mentioned a little bit here might help address too but that's what I'm thinking about as I as I as I look at this yeah let me uh the 200 40 pizzas between five and seven that that's never happened um I think you're we're we got a little loose on our math there um 300 pizzas would be a really busy Friday D in every that that's that's over there I I anticipate about 50% of that type of volume so I think we're that I hope you're right if we get over there but I don't I don't think so yes just a couple of follow questions and I appreciate your patience and your answers um how are you accommodating for deliveries being that this is such a small space and everything I mean you're working with like Cisco and these 18 wheelers that are be going to be coming into the lot and are your deliveries all in the mornings or uh I mean I I would imagine that nobody in the restaurant business wants to get their deliveries at lunchtime you know so um basically how does how does that at work and how do you accommodate these big trucks in this small space so um and then just to address um sort of the frequency of that number one we would have a lot more storage here than we do at our current uh restaurant and um our product is for everything is fresh we don't do Frozen stuff in general um so it's three times a week currently and that's probably twice the volume of what the store would do so it would be two or three times a week um they they're actually very workable as far as we can we can within reason dictate when we want to get our um our have our delivery dropped and they you know it's it's generally quite consistent um and it it is a you know we do use US Foods right now they run trucks around um but it would be twice two or three times a week and again without knowing exactly what that parking lot looks like uh I would think that there's enough room there for them to pull into our lot you know obviously not parking on Vernon um but currently they pull into our parking lot and unload right there and the flip side of that the trash um how often does that get picked up we do that let me think about that we do trash twice a week and recycling once but that would be dramatically lower without D in the majority of our trash is You Know What's happen what's being created by customers eating in the restaurant it's generally just boxes it for this would be boxes because it would be you know the food shows up in cases and we'd be doing that okay thanks very much further questions yeah questions no questions okay I got a couple questions uh first one I mean it it's obvious just with the history of of this site and the potential projects and neighbors City comp everything uh we're just in conflict of competing interests right so what would you want to do here if you had the space say to do it I mean would you ra like if you could and had the space would you rather replicate what you have in in nanka where you have dining yeah if you had that's a really good question and I don't know that I can truthfully answer it um is the front you know having a full service restaurant is great but it it's it's also double to work essentially you got your back of the house and the front of the house they're they're both intense um I would say ideally if I could you know if we could have this be a successful Standalone delivery and pickup site I think I might prefer that as cool as it is you know and there are synergies of having people D in and not but you know I think um if anybody's craving that experience they can you know Drive 15 minutes to get to our restaurant if they want to go have a beer and and a pizza um it's a good question and I I I don't I don't have an answer for you but I would say off the top of my head if this if this could be successful like this which I do believe that it can be or or it wouldn't be here um I think this is manage super manageable so yeah let's say three years ago when you kind of ruled this out because you didn't have this idea I mean if the site was twice as large you probably would have been interested to more or less replicate at that time I would for sure and I would say more though parking the parking was the biggest the size of it you know like I said we do what we do out of like 1,700 Square ft so it wouldn't have needed much expansion if any I mean it would have needed some because there's really not enough room but the parking would was the was the biggest thing if you if that had 50 parking stalls and you know was a little bit bigger then I would say yes what does your current Facility have for parking is it close to that 50 Mark it's 36 in our lot and then we've got we're on Minon Boulevard which you can park on and then we're on the corner of I don't even know the name of the street this is like a dead end Street Bridge Street or something yeah so there's there's probably I mean with you would I would consider yeah about 50 like around our build building and in our lot something like that probably more actually okay I think that's all I have for questions too and then just like a lot of feedback and comments but uh certainly hearing a lot of the questions here I mean you can kind of just get the sense like we're just trying to get this right and it's a it's a tricky site yeah I've been following to meet all of the the demands obviously that's what we're here for is to find out what your thoughts are and so yeah so we know how to move forward if we let's just go around and just maybe share our comments does that work for everyone or do we do we want any discussion back and forth or is people feel good just kind of sharing feedback okay yeah so who's biked on Vernon Avenue okay so is it protected or unprotected the bike lines it's unprotected not enjoyable so it's not enjoyable I go on that sidewalk okay yeah absolutely and um do motorists Drive the speed limit no not at all right so so if someone is going Northeast on Vernon Avenue and they and they see this place they want to turn into it or whatever right they're probably not looking for cyclists right so but there's a car coming in the opposite direction so the conflict you often get with bike Lanes is that um especially where people aren't expecting them is that you know they're like they go they start to go and then a car and then you know because they're trying to beat the car they're not really looking and they see a cyclist and this is how pedestrians die right and they have you know it's the old traley question I don't know if this is urban urbanism thing but um where it's like you know what do you do do you do you crash into the other car and kill everybody or do you kill the cyclist or do you you know and hopefully we're not going to run into that situation but the busier this place is the more conflicts there are going to be at these entry and exit points and so because you're going to be people are doing lefts in and they're also going to be doing lefts out you're going to have the same sort of thing and people are just looking for cars they're not looking this is why motorcyclists die because you know the bumper stickers start seeing motor motorcyclist right cyclists are even worse because they're there people aren't motorists aren't looking for them and I'm not blaming motorists because it's just the way things are or whatever but um it just makes it really really dangerous for here so so we've all it sounds like we've all biked on on uh or most of us have biked on Vernon Avenue um and and cars they're not paying attention they swerving in out of the bike lane I mean I've seen that I have it on video you know it's like you just don't feel safe so having another car oriented business that's just going to add more cars to the situation and more conflict that's my concern or one of my concerns can see your point I think I mean anything desirable there will bring traffic of some sort so like it sounds like the concern is something that's just that much more intense right I mean if it were a sitdown restaurant you're still going to have the same issue just less often right it's intensity it's more opportunity for conflict what it is yeah no I I you know I would go into I think it's brison park with my kids sometimes and I would take the bike and I would go down Veron so I totally recognize how fast folks move but I'm wondering if with the traffic study right if if it could be designed in a way and I know this has the AR in and the arrow out if you designate one entry point and one exit point if that's going to help prevent the multiple you know left turns as you canot say if they comeing up on Vernon making a left turn into that first parking space prevent that and just make it an exit space so that folks won't go into that location and then on six Feld Street where I live um on uh France and 60th in that area um I've seen folks put up like these like PVC type poles um to kind of separate the just give some level of protection between the bike lane and the street that might be a mitigation type tool I I'm just bringing this up as is there ways that we could mitigate somebody the risk that you're identifying through design of entry and exit points and maybe something to protect the bik cleans especially in this area so that we could reduce any potential conflict um during those peak hours where we think most people would be moving so that's just my thought can we put up just for a minute that there was a slide I think that had the definition of neighbor neighborhood commercial in the comprehensive plan context on it want to look at that one more time thanks for putting that up I wanted to check it because this doesn't doesn't specifically Define scope like Geographic scope of a neighborhood Commercial Business it could be all of a din for all work you know could be something that goes well beyond what I would think of as a neighborhood Within A din service thank you I was thinking about the bike stuff too because I kind of a bike Advocate like you Lou um i' bu I raised my when you said did anybody bike on Vernon I did one time and then I said I'd never do it again um because the bike Lanes aren't safe I think you were getting at that but it seems like I mean what do you think about the idea that and it's true of Wooddale I mean I always think of Wooddale the bike project they did in Wooddale where they just painted a new stripe and then put and then didn't take the center stripe off well and now the car is actually drive down the bike lane um where they weren't doing that before it's even more unsafe than before but um it just feels like adding one little spot just it's unsafe now it's going to continue to be unsafe in the future for bikers isn't the solution to make a better bike infrastructure create a raised bike plane that's protected and off the street I mean I don't know I as an advocate I I would rather see that I don't think anyone's going to in the right mind is going to bike with their family done Vern it's too unsafe only hardcore bikers you you maybe you would but like I think or someone who's not a a seasoned biker comfortable with I mean everybody knows what it's like to have to look over your shoulder for the car that's going to going to turn on red or whatever and hit you but I so I just think that most people aren't going to bike on Burn I think it's too unsafe regardless of what type of business goes there that's just my reaction to that so I'm wondering whether what the and the other thing I'm thinking about is we've seen so many ideas come through here and fail we are looking at the restrictions of the site I mean if a small business like this can't go there what can I mean is it just if it's not something like this does it just sit Bank it forever I mean I'm trying to imagine because I think everybody's feeling well there could be some kind of business that goes there well what if it's not something like this I mean it's just genuinely a question what is it or is this or are we talking about you know wanting to reone and propose amendments to larger swaps of parcels along Vernon to encourage a more wholesome type of Redevelopment than we're talking about so I just if we're sticking with this site I guess the question I'm interested in knowing commissioner's thoughts about is if this wouldn't work what would because otherwise have to say no to everything I mean I'm kind of inclined to think maybe it could work because maybe it could work because even though it would increase the the risk that you're talking I totally agree with you about all that um it's still on I think the fixing that this the danger on the bike is a is an infrastructure question that whoever owns the street should deal with by making it a desirable place to bike that's safe but until they do that I'm open to thinking about creative ways to get a little life back into this neighborhood a lot of people say like you know that sounds kind of nice so just more interested in the commissioner's thoughts about those types of Concepts just to keep the conversation going on that on that point commissioner Borstein so like you I've been kind of frustrated to see failure failure failure and and okay what are we going to do um but but I'd be interested in how what your reaction to the possibility of just sticking with what's in the comprehensive plan as multif family with four town homes in there like we did on on Valley View and maybe wouldn't even have to have possibly have the garage doors in the front maybe there's a way to have a service road in the back you shaking your head Jimmy there's not space was asking at the beginning what have done concept sorry atically on this I don't I don't know enough about whether that would actually happen yeah but conceptually I agree with you but if that's not realistic then something like this seems yeah better than nothing no that's a great point but can you go say say a little bit more about why that's doable on Valley View but not on Vern yeah timing is certainly a lot to do with it just right now certain things aren penciling out and the multif Family Market in general and if there's variances at play I mean I've heard firsthand from developers that they're not going to they're not going to even submit cuz they've gone through some frustrating processes like that particular project you're referring to where they pretty much got full approvals and then at the site plan got you know 180 that was a subdivision issue there wasn't it no it was PUD related uh so like this I mean like there there's a cost to the land a adaptive reuse of just using what's already there is just inherently going to be the cheapest option for it and that's that's the variations we've seen to date you know maybe maybe if this property included 50 ft to the west of that un you know there's like some condos to the west and there's a big buffer there you know if they wanted to sell a chunk of that land to this person and you got more from the city and you just had more space to work with I think you could see something that's that's getting to that right density to make someone approach us but from all we've heard there just there hasn't been a serious push down that right now and maybe maybe it's a couple years until that happens but then Comm to Commissioners B boron's point it's like how long do we want to wait yeah staff did receive some calls inquiries about the potential of doing housing and you know I um you mentioned the process of getting variances you know there's some uncertainty there so none of those phone calls that I received inquiring about residential chose to move forward because there would be a rezone and variances and if it was Town Homes it'd be subdivision too it'd be the whole nine yards correct it wouldn't be a comprehensive plan Amendment so it's a three vote item there but it would be a rezoning with variances and a subdivision I one of the things I've been thinking about and I'll share more about this later but this I know there were some concerns from Neighbors of like hey you do this and it might not pan out and you know something else is going to happen there I guess in why I'm in favor just in general of the switch to pcd1 is because you can do multifam in a pcd1 so like when that time comes and let's say that someone gets a little more creative with the land around this and then it makes sense like you could fold let's say this project is successful maybe they take the main floor you know and have that type of facility or or a sit down restaurant in something that does provide some of that stuff we do want to see but currently with how small this site is I mean that's the challenge and that's the challenge we saw in would Del Valley View not on the site I mean that site that they built the town homes on we originally saw more dense you know with the basement and it just gets too expensive when you're on a small site you're just limited with all these other constraints of height and making the most of that space and parking it you just lose that usable land so you often don't see something on here that's going to otherwise we would have seen it or someone would have come forward like that's just we haven't seen anything like it so I think until we either get more land or costs come down we're just going to keep seeing something sit but yeah yeah just a couple comments on that um I think commissioner Borstein uh you know the question of like what else can we see here I I think in the email from director teue with pcd1 subdistrict there was like a list of potential options I think um antique shops art galleries art studios barber shops beauty shops you know these kind of things and that was a pretty good list I think with this spot a couple constraints right as the size and where it's positioned on Valley View it was kind of an extension of a node so you kind of extend that so it's was a natural fit to kind of um have that density and have those Town Homes fit on a small piece of land this one it's really small um and it's a profitability issue and so I think a high velocity High in business uh with high margins would work here but of these different options that you could do at pcd1 what types of business can you have low traffic high margin that would fit on this size and I think that's the constraint that anybody who's looking at this property is going to ask themselves um this type of business where it's a delivery uh or take out business has that high margin I mean High Velocity type of a feeli to it um but again what I'm trying to balance here is the volume of vehicles coming in and out and would it pose a safety risk to folks who move on Veron so I like your point with no one's going to want to ride on Vernon because it's not really a super friendly spot so it's more so about traffic during peak hours and when does that clash and when does that line up is when you have the most issues so if we get somehow think through that and manage that I feel like this could be a really good potential spot for this kind of business so I appreciate your reuse of the building I think that is a a great idea um as far as resoning I think it's something that we we have to do whether or not we do it on a proforma basis before we get a request or not because what we have now is work is is unworkable I mean this is kind of a oneoff in terms of the property that it is so you know we it's unimaginable that we're going to find some Auto you know I mean cars are high margin but you know this isn't the right size for for dealership but um you know that that's not going to work so I think um it goes without saying that it's rezoning whether or not it affects the comprehensive plan or it's just a rezoning along with variances and maybe we need to look at doing it without you know without having a request there just to make it um attractive or appealing because it is such an unusual parcel um the issue that I do have however is the traffic um I think it is um such a busy street and um the times that I think to avoid additional traffic on this road is exactly when you are busiest and that is a concern of mine you know I think um you know between four and S four and six five and seven you know whatever you mentioned you've got people coming home from work you've still got kids on buses because you've got you know a fair number of schools and school buses that are crossing all of those areas whether you're going to the high school or Countryside uh I mean um or um Creek Valley um a lot you've got a lot of buses school buses going up and down that road along with commuters and to add you know dinner traffic to that um the the fact that you're that you're turning left I think it's a it's um it's very difficult and I don't doubt for a minute that when you talk to um the citizenry that you know lives there they didn't want access from those streets um and I understand that um but I think to better serve the western part of Edina you almost need to do that in order to alleviate the extra pressure that's going to be on uh on Vernon Avenue I don't see um I think you need some kind of a valve there you know in terms of the traffic um and the fact that in um area of potential change we have been talking as as as commissioner Miranda mentioned we have been talking about this as becoming a CER or becoming you know a high volume um bus route so um it seems um like a conundrum to um see this as an area of potential change and then be putting additional traffic with lots of turns in there so um I think it would serve the western part of udina very well but I traffic is my uh biggest concern and that's within the context of certainly having to change the zoning so uh I think it was commissioner Bornstein who brought up who just mentioned in passing you know the owner of this road or whatever well the city of doesn't actually own this road it's a County Road wondering right it's a county road like France yep yep like France Avenue so yeah and in 66 um and so um you know they work with cities and you know they partner with cities they're not going to like do stuff against the city's will and vice versa um but it is an issue that has to be considered um and so you know my concern isn't I mean you know there's going to be conflicts everywhere as commissioner Smith said but you know it's the intensity of use that I'm really worried about here compared to you know previous previous suggestions um so you know and we're all like you know oh this is a conundrum and it's like well that's our job we're the Planning Commission this is what we're supposed to do right so so um and as commissioner Pilla said that you know we're working on this at you know in areas of change this is one area that we've identified that might make our list it's not finalized yet but it's certainly Vernon Avenue has been something that we've talked about um and so again so this is so this is our this is our job um the thing is you know the commission wanted to do this a few years ago when the city council negated that so so now we're we're at a disadvantage because we don't have the proper Zoning for this for this slot um same thing happened in Lincoln and London da where we proposed that a couple years ago so they nixed it and then um you know the residents came back and wanted it uh a plan for it so so it's our job to plan and we need to plan the whole point of planning is planning ahead of time and also not doing spot zoning spot changes um so this like is wrong on every level it's not you know it's not just the bikes this is wrong un like so many different levels you know and I feel bad for the land owner but they've had it for many years and they could have you know uh attempt to change earlier than they chose to let the existing uh business run there so um it is a difficult spot um and you know I think as a city we don't want to put land owners in the position of having an unbuildable lot it's probably illegal to do that right so we do need to come up with something but whether we need to come up with it you know like right now I think is a really poor planning planning decision so I think you know we and the city council should say wait till we go through this areas of future change and see what comes of it and that would be a good time to like evaluate the neighborhood evaluate the the corridor and say okay what do we want to see here you know involve the neighborhood um we've never had a corridor planning thing before it' be new for the city but you know what what makes sense here what fits with our climate action plan because this business does not fit with our climate action plan okay um so you know for for all these reasons I just think that this this really doesn't work um now one question I have is that have have any of the adjacent land owners talked about I don't know like buying the land or or selling some of their land to for this land or anything have you anyone talked to anyone else about that do anyone know make a little bit bigger so it be easier to build on or something I've heard there were preliminary conversations that went nowhere okay with the one to the West okay so um you know the the land use that that was grandfathered in was a was grandfathered in in the first place and B really is not anything you know car washes car muffler places that sort of thing isn't the kind of business that the city wants and in a lot of Senses those businesses don't make sense when we go to Eves anyway um so the city has rationale for saying you know we don't want anything like this you know here because it it doesn't make sense um but I I really think we need to we need a bigger picture before we can really make an intelligent decision here and before we want to like rezone it and also do a change to the comprehensive plan that we submit to the Met Council I mean where I I just think that's a big mistake it's not it's that's not planning that's that's just spur the moment stuff yeah that's reacting thank you thank you this is way more complicated than I thought it was going to be I want to thank you for coming in and and sharing some time with us tonight um a few thoughts and not any particular order first I have a real I have real trouble with this is pcd1 um mostly for the reasons that commissioner Miranda describes it about it being it's it's not a restaurant it's a commercial kitchen and if you look at all the other 54 uh uses for pcd1 there really isn't anything that resembles this business format it's all small small low impact retail it's not it's not delivery and pickup businesses and and I would love to be a customer of the business that you're proposing but it it just has a different format than everything else of these other 54 approved uses in pcd1 so first thing I have real trouble with this as a pcd1 second thing is you know I really I I really value the conversation we had about you know things keep failing on this site and and um and my my mindset around that is well it's not I'm not sure it's our job to decide when to settle necessarily and decide that enough is enough we got to do something rather than nothing maybe it is and they just didn't cover that in a training but it just it doesn't feel like what our role as a Planning Commission is and there's so many factors that can cause particular uses or particular models to work or not work not at least to which how much somebody paid for the parcel to begin with so I mean I have a hard time you know decisively saying or or you know feeling okay enough's enough we got to approve this because the two other things failed and we got to do something because I don't like bacon Lots I don't like bacon Lots either but I have it's hard for me to know okay when is that time when you should settle third thing that troubles me a lot is this is a single parcel commercial unit I just don't I don't like that it just rubs me the wrong way and to me that's a warning sign like you know something's not right here if you got one tiny commercial parcel in a c of R1 and R2 doesn't feel right I can't prove I mean I can't tell you exactly why it doesn't feel right I didn't go to planning school but something doesn't feel right about that and the last thing is you know I asked um director Teague earlier about you know how do we how do we know when when it's appropriate to amend the comprehensive plan and my thoughts for what it's worth it's just my two cents um I think we should change the comprehensive plan when we think an alternative use better serves the goals of the city than the current plan prescribes and I don't see that here I mean I I as much as I like I said would love to be a customer of this business I don't see why that ser serves the city's interest better than housing frankly knowing that there are challenges whatever Direction somebody might want to go with this particular plot so those are those are the kinds of things I'm struggling with right now the one thing I've been I'm going ahead all right got it um I've been thinking about this a lot too because of the previous failed projects and I agree with you um commissioner alqa about this piece of land being a one-off um but I'm also a little frustrated that um this issue keeps getting kicked down the road because this is what upsets land owners you know it's an vacant property we can't decide anything government is being slow we are participating in that and so um I struggle with that that that we are part of um creating you know now the third time creating something that nobody can get through um even if we have little or or you know whatever power we have we're a part of that um and and I actually I agree with you about the intensity of use and the number of cars turning in and out um but I'm but I'm going to say on to push back on the climate plan a little bit because when you have businesses in the middle of neighborhoods then people don't have to drive so far so I'm actually okay right I love being able to walk down the corner and pick up um a pizza or get a coffee so I actually think it would keep some people out of their cars or they just stop on their way home and don't have to make an extra trip somewhere else and I also think when um someone is delivering four pizzas rather than four cars going in and picking up a pizza it's a net positive too so um I'm going to push back on the climate plan a little bit so I think this is a tough one and I think it's becoming you know part of our job to help figure out what to do on this yeah I'll try to be short on this one I um I would agree you know we keep kicking the can down the road we should um I'm leaning towards some kind of action I do also understand a need for process and we have to take it back take a study take a look at it my biggest concern is on safety I know we could make it work based on the PCD the designation the labeling the coding the zoning we could you know that's the administrative side the paperwork side what I'm looking at more of is if something goes here is it going to hurt or harm something you know bikers drivers so if it's even possible that we could do some kind of a modeling or a study to and a mitigation plan that says here's what's possible here here's what volume looks like and here's the risk that we we could run into um and here's the dangersous that we have if if if someone could spell that out so now we have a sense of what's the harm here um it makes it easier to make these decisions I think and so I don't know if it's a parking study or what it's going to look like but if we could somehow model the movement of vehicles people and traffic in this area at peak times it gives us a data point that we could say what's the boundary of the harm and then we get back into what what kind of business would actually fit that so that's that's what I'm looking at um I feel like that's going to get us faster to a decent answer um than having to go through you know kicking the ball down the road and rejecting businesses without data to look at to say what's going to work so that's kind of my thinking on this one I don't know if director T if this is something that the developer has to put together if this city could it would as any resoning um site plan applications would get a traffic studies required so that would be part of any formal application okay thank you I agree kind of like what you were saying earlier I think uh it actually reduces our climate emissions that we're doing if we have it closer to kind of community nodes and where the community is cuz if they're driving and picking it up on the way I believe the next closest one would be probably that dominoes and the by the Dairy Queen off 100 and I think having that closer to our community is really what we're looking for kind of reducing the distance that people need to travel and then I also think it's kind of unusual that we have kind of something that comes in here and basically fits what we had before I think it's really just looking at the use that is basically a discussion all right I don't know how to keep this short this is there's a lot of stuff here um like am I looking at the best possible plan that could go there and like satisfy everything absolutely not because I think the constraints of the site prevent an ideal scenario I mean you said it if if we could get 25 more parking spots on there I think we would have something that everyone would like you know a neighborhood a neighborhood node that you could drive to not spill over parking into you know the neighbors and then it's comfortably parked um I mean this type of concept is well I guess not any Dina but there is like a Carboni rate by 50 than France that is just take out delivery I mean that is a concept that is a restaurant and you know they don't have a lot of parking there and doesn't seem to be a problem yes it's a totally different area but no one's parking in a ramp to then go you know pick up a carbon Pizza I think what I'm just struggling with in general is is the space to to get something that we would like to see here and I I I kind of I'm I'm on the side with Mayweather where I mean I believe a commercial Corridor or a a neighborhood Corridor that's more dense and kind of what the areas of potential change working group as well as that student group you know like it supports more mixed use along a corridor will allow people to walk to things more get on a bike get on a bus but if we just line this whole Corridor with housing only I think we lose on that potential forever and I think having one little piece of commercial something in there kind of sets in my opinion like a lucky precedent to reserve the potential for commercial even small retail activity so this is such a minimal like adaptive reuse just in in its scope but it could have like it definitely has more intense outcomes from what you mentioned commissioner Miranda for sure but I'm struggling to see what what could possibly go there if we study this area and we guide it towards something better unless something gives on the land side in the meantime we're just going to be in this this circular situation and I support the change to pcd1 versus pcd4 like let's get it away from what we definitely don't want it to be in the future and I think no one wants it to be a car wash a gas station or an auto body shop but there's a lot of uses in pcd1 that I think people would support a restaurant being one of them um I don't I don't see it as a commercial or uh industrial operation as much as others I I think the ideal scenario is if we had time and somehow there was more land that could be given toward parking to make something work that kind of appeases everyone and lets people linger in a commercial area in a neighborhood not just walk and grab a pizza um but I don't think we're there yet and and potentially we might not ever be there or we're waiting for the city to negotiate the land so I mean I'm sympathetic to getting this through and I I don't see this as a dire outcome I think this stimulates that area and provides a lot of good use and a lot of good reasons for people to swing by there on their way home I mean I drove by this and back every day for 10 years I biked my kids down Vernon once a week multiple Summers you know like pulling off and getting a pizza either biking or driving it I'm not adding that trip it's just there's a lot of people that are taking this road already I don't think it's going to create new new trips as much as it's just going to pull people off existing trips so in an effort to support what you guys are doing cuz I am in favor if the plan gets a little better so I just offer some specifics um I think from what you're showing with the the one ways you're you're trying to do oneway traffic right one in one out potentially consider if you can rearrange the Stalls to switch that so then if someone pulls in and they miss a spot they can Circle by just turning right like if you came in on the left side and you go out and you miss a spot and you want to come back in you're not turning left across traffic um just from a potential safety perspective that would be better um if there's if there's potential with the city carry um I know we can't do it on like mot RightWay or County right away but if they push the parking lot and fence to the property line and just push that Landscaping back I mean does the city make you know if they paid for all those trees and plantings like does the city allow that to be planted on city right away or then maybe we could get more Park paring spaces or more green space um and provide more room just on site in general to like move cars more safely and people I know we've we've put it on the table and it didn't happen cuz we couldn't plant stuff and mind out right away but I think we could and on the on that North Side yes yeah what I'd suggest is move the fence to the property line and plant those trees because again like East of Eden prair Road there is a 60t right away I mean there's a lot of space that who knows how that's going to be used so I it'd be nice if you could push your lot toward the back and maybe get some more parking spots and maybe make you know take away spots elsewhere and have more green space I think there is some creativity that could be done there and maybe then you can have that curb cut move to the right um again like what I would like to see here is just like you know it's like you see things kind of like this like you know the Dairy Queens that they're not like they're not delivery but they're just like walk up or you drive up and it's just the little stand there's nowhere in there to sit but there's a few tables out so someone that does take out or walks up does have a chance to like eat there I mean I would like that whole like spot south of that the building to be a patio um or a green space you know where people can linger that you know do walk from the neighborhood I think if you don't build anything like we just lose the chance for people to do the right thing that they'd want to do and yeah there's a little extra mess but if there's no expectation of service like you just take your takeout out there maybe there's some other thing you could get maybe maybe you could pick up a drink or something I don't know but I feel like what we lose here with this is I mean I don't I don't again see the this as like an industrial machine it's more of like it is just a takeout delivery restaurant but we're losing the potential for Community to gather and even if we could get a fraction of it and I'm just thinking of like those Dairy Queens that are all over the place with not much parking lots of people go there monka has one I ding by set at a couple tables out yeah exactly yeah so I I think from what the plan could show just being a a little more toward like a neighborhood commercial is some sort of like Gathering aspect and I think if it's completely focused on cars and deliveries and takeout like then you are all you're automatically incentivizing that intensity that commissioner Miranda is talking about so I think there's I think there's like a small infrastructure piece of this that like with the plan I that I would support is like a hybrid version of this where yeah that's your business but there are some Provisions to allow people to hang out and I think if you push that fence back and the city's okay with planting trees on their right away instead of your property I think now you just Got 5 10 ft to work with and maybe that can move parking elsewhere um and I'm just saying these things because you know we might not support it but the city council might support this this is exactly what happened at the Caribou site when there's a double lane drive-thru going around right on the corner of Grand View the commission shut it like recommended against it 8:1 and the city council unanimously supported it so I want want to give you some helpful tips in case you know this does go forward and I I think this this could be a win for that area it sounds like most neighbors because there's no chance of spill over they're okay with it I think the shift to pcd1 allows for a modest future Redevelopment if that were to occur that is that would automatically be more in line with I think what the comprehensive plan wants to see like again there's a lot of talk of strategic Redevelopment anything that adds the chance for people to walk or bike to a place I think this does um I think it it it it does achieve more of the climate action plan than let's say if the sit vacant you know people are going to drive farther and out of their way to go to places and I think this gives a chance for people to walk to to bike to granted it un it is unsafe but I mean I've taken two kids in a Burly there lots of times it's sucks but you can do it you're just more skilled at biking than the rest of us I just Clos my eyes the whole time fingers crossed um one second and then yeah like if there were a chance to lose parking I I know you have like that 24 ft you know the drive lane that that can reduce to 22 feet I've seen that in parking ramps like if we can tighten some of the especially since it's a oneway you really don't need 24 ft of space I think you can squish some of your parking in there to get more in a concentrated area um and then free it up for green space and you know like like again I'm picturing like that Dairy Queen kind of gathering space where that Dairy Queen really is like those those Concepts really are a drive up pickup not necessarily delivery but that's the only component that's different here um the comprehensive plan you know again it a lot of it talks about having more mixed use in areas not just one development so having a different use in a neighborhood is what we want to see in the city which the county qualifies as Urban and I think all of us can agree like the West part of Edina is not really Urban so if we just again fill this with housing like the conference of plan is suggesting I think we're losing an opportunity to kind of redefine Vernon in a way that is consistent with the comprehensive plans so I don't know I'm I'm torn because again this isn't ideal in any way but I I think there could be something good here with a new a new site plan that offers some green space A Gathering Spot maybe tweak the in andout just so you're thinking of people have to Circle um it wouldn't cause conflicts of you know turning out left to do so uh the the sidewalk conversation again if they built it it would be a sidewalk that ends on one side and ends on the other so I would expect the city to absolutely get right in line and finish that sidewalk on both sides and I think if this project goes forward and a new sidewalk finishes that whole North stretch like that's also a win so I I don't know I think there's compared to the green drop site where you know you could just have cues of people going out on to Vernon and it's really just this transactional drop off to an overcrowded restaurant I think this is something that will work for us and you guys um but you've heard it up here it's kind of split so maybe maybe just consider some of those times in the meantime before you get to the city council take some of our feedback and I guess I open up to other Commissioners comments too I was just going to talk about the sidewalk which you just did I mean the opportunity for getting side additional sidewalk there I think is a positive thing and um we're going to present areas of potential change coming up in the next few months here so it might be worth watching what happens there in the meantime when is that going to be you have a plan for that so that's going to be part of I was going announce that at the commissioner comments but yeah any other comments you guys commissioner Mora so as the only person here who was on the climate action plan committee I can say pretty definitively that this doesn't address climate in any way and that having this is pick up and drop off on the way home doesn't really address anything and this is just way to an intense of use I think I'll save conversations with you later work session or something else I definitely disagree but yeah uh again we have a lot of discretion here so like like Comm planner Teague showed I mean this is where we ought to split in opinion based off of a lot of things and we have the right to do so so whether that's you know in concert with each other you know do we want to deviate from the comprehensive plan or the zoning or not we we definitely have the discretion to do so and I think you're seeing that come out any other comments I was just going to ask you qu so procedurally say they came back with a specific proposal address some of the feedback you talked about made it a little bit more of an amenity for the neighborhood to um and then we Carrie you were talking about there are certain can't remember where the thresholds were but the the standard for approving something is there's a higher vote threshold that needs to be met is that by the planning commission or the the council okay that's what I thought I just want to make sure yeah I mean either way I mean I I think just taking in the feedback you guys deciding what you want to do you want to make a proposal that the council might weigh in on I think incorporating some of the stuff that you heard tonight will probably you know improve your chances so I I just always like being a part of this group because it's really smart feedback across the board I kind of came in mixed on this one too so thanks thanks Commissioners for all your comments it was helpful for me any other final questions you guys might have for us very much appreciate everyone's feedback come on up to the I was just going to say that I've been toing a lot of different planning commissions of this nature uh as part of my job uh and this kind of feedback and this kind of interaction is actually very refreshing it's not it's not common so I appreciate that very much um one thing I would say uh with regard to commissioner Smith the because we we were back of the enveloping a lot of numbers there and I mean I I'm on I drive Vernon every day multiple times and I don't you know if if we as far as a traffic study obviously we're going to probably be required to do that regardless um but back of the envelope math as I was sitting in my chair I mean if we add if we had 80 cars added to Vernon in a night that would be a lot in my opinion for what what we anticipate flow wise and driving on Vernon multiple times a day I don't know that you would notice that um I mean we're talking about you know 300 pizzas it's it's 150 pizzas but a lot of those go out in multiples you know generally people order more than one pizza on our orders so I mean those number the number of cars is is I think a lot less intense than what was being discussed in general and we can I can drill down on that too from you know based on our our current store um but again Vernon is a busy road I don't really know that you would notice any flow changes with with our use there yeah and we'll obviously get to the bottom of that but I was I was listening to those numbers and doing them in my head and no I don't think it's it's not it's I don't think it's significant personally and we'll drill down there that with the with the study thank you and can I ask one more question um you know what were you asked the question about whether this concept or that concept is better I mean in reality that that concept is better our current location we do we're able to do a lot more business that being said you know coming into this I was very reluctant to even talk about seating and you know hearing your suggestion to to an outdoor space obviously that would be great I'm happy to you know maintain something like that but do you as a group and I know um commissioner Bennett is recommending that we maybe add something that to the city or not but is that a consensus that exists between I guess as a whole or or as a majority or whatnot up here that we do provide some type of because it it would be awesome I mean you know it would make it an amenity to the neighborhood and be really cool especially in the summer um is that the route that you guys as a whole would recommend because I think it's a tricky I think there's some fundamental like I think people just aren't necessarily going to support whatever it might be um but in general the Planning Commission supports extra Green Space and places for people to gather but um maybe I don't need to speak for you guys I mean if we let's just say if we saw this plan and say those those parking cells were gone and it was green space with you know four tables and like is that a better looking plan to you if they're adequately parked I can answer for myself I would say yes it's a better looking plan seems like there's going to be some tension because as soon as you have more people sitting then your earlier concern about parking spots comes back because the the lot's got not going to flow as fast as it was before so but I mean assuming you could sort all that out and have some seating and be more of a Gathering Place it fits more in pcd1 in my opinion so that would be much better from that perspective still have an issue with the comprehensive plan plan in my mind but I can't say that that's you know irreversible or something I couldn't get over for the right project so I feel better about it but I but I wouldn't be 100% on it at that point for myself yeah just add one comment on that yeah that's a good question I'm trying to think about what we said about keys when they were trying to look at this spot and I want to be fair right um because they wanted to have a much bigger restaurant footprint with outdoor patio and a whole bunch of other things and that didn't work out so well um neighbors push back pretty pretty hard and I I think their concept had like maybe alcohol and like people hanging out and noise and a bunch of other factors that you guys aren't really proposing here um having a place to sit down in some green space it's kind of like human behavior like if if you if you have that would that make people want to walk there and sit down or would you want to drive their park and sit down and so that's what I'm not sure about I think overall having a nice little small patio you could just kind of hang out you're in a jog you stop by grab some pizza you have a have a seat that's nice you know it it it it certainly would encourage folks to come here and um use it but would it drive people to park and use it that's what I'm not sure about but if that plan comes back and I see a small patio spot I think it's a nice a nice fixture to be honest I think even if there isn't like designated seating spots I could see a lot of people in the top right corner here Gathering and sitting under the trees and some shade I mean I think regardless even if the design is we want you in and out people are going to find a spot to sit down whether it be the heror under those trees that very thing came up when we were walking London Jerry um people were talking about the teenagers where there was a lack of places to sit down and the teenagers were sitting on top of the retaining walls and in the grassy area so when you talk about the Dairy Queen or uh a little sitting area I think about teenagers hanging out on Friday night that's what comes to my mind and actually I think I I her when be or maybe you um the the Dairy Queen in our parking lot at station currently doesn't have any seating and they do pretty much exactly what you're talking about they sit on the Cur or but they're eating they're eating ice cream cone out of Pizza in In fairness I also sat through that Planning Commission meeting or city coun oh city council meeting where there were 80 people testifying half on one side and half on the other about restaurant so you might it might stir it right we said no to that before and it's it becomes yeah it's but yeah I guess the suggestion too just to provide context for others again it's like more of that that seasonal you know business play where again if we provide nothing then people definitely won't as likely walk or bike and just linger a little but if you don't have like an a full dining area inside I mean that's why those Dairy Queens have such small Footprints parking all that it's very quick I mean someone's sitting there eating an ice cream cone walks away bikes up to it I mean I just I feel like that type of addition here would make it a little sweeter but again that's maybe just my opinion it sounds like others would in general like to see that versus not and then the traffic study I guess that would take into account that right Carrie it could yes so maybe some of it is like yeah there is you know they take it into account or they don't and then we see the difference of what the traffic is yeah thanks a lot for your time thank you guys appreciate it thanks for being bold and coming back for uh another you know we don't want to strike three but thank you for being bold and stepping up and trying to get something there thank you guys all right again no action requested there just non-binding feedback and we'll turn it over now to chair and member comments I think Lou you mentioned you were saving some really juicy nuggets for yes all right well turn it over to you well you know before this stuff that I had prepared to talk about um it just suddenly occurred to me that you know if the city council intentionally under planned and delayed planning that's a strategy so that we have to deal with everything ad hoc and we have uncomfortable conversations and we're not at each other's throats but you know it makes it uncomfortable for everyone and if you don't plan that's what happens anyway um first of all I'd like to say that it's um even though it's making congestion worse and traffic worse I'm thrilled to see parts of France Avenue closed for the Eline stations being built um that's going to be an amazing amenity for the City much like the uh the uh 9M Creek Trail that you know many people fought against that now is like The Shining Jewel of the city I think the Eline is going to be very much the same thing so I'm really excited to see that construction happening um secondly um this is all before the change things there's a book called the 15minute city hanen county library has it we like to or certain city council members and Mayors like to say that you know we are like we are like Paris and that you know the Sham is France Avenue or whatever well the 15minute city is written by Carlos Moreno who who worked with the the uh mayor of of Paris on on their plans for making the city much healthier for the Olympics okay so areas of potential change um so um we've been meeting for months and uh actually commissioner day or uh yeah commissioner day is not here but uh commissioner Padia and commissioner um mer felt and I have met uh a number of times in person um we're done with the in-person meetings and now we are um uh building our deliverable which is a list of the areas so we've discussed at length um different potential areas of change for the city um and we've come up with a a a list and now we're working on prioritizing it and defining the boundaries um for each of those things and then figuring out we have a template from the city but I've got to talk to Addison about you know how much detail we can actually put in that report so so so we're working on that working on finishing that up um the plan is to present that to the Planning Commission at uh a July meeting and then assuming that gets passed then presenting it to the city council at their at an August meeting yes as for context since we you know we saw that awesome report delivered by you know the student group that was hearded are you guys referencing any piece of that to like supplement you know and kind of back up some of the stuff you're doing or are there other pieces of different plans that you're referencing to kind of reinforce these areas the boundaries Etc so yeah so well we were blindsided by that at our last inperson meeting which was the day before or the day it was presented to the Planning Commission we found out about it so again the city doesn't seem to be planning very well and and telling us what's going on it seems really odd that that would be like a secret or something um so we didn't so we had no ability to talk to them or anything that was just thrown at us so um what I have done is um and again we haven't discussed this amongst ourselves yet but um I just kind of got the bones of it out the other day um is that I did put in two points there which is the main point of agreement and the main point of disagreement that we have with what what they're doing right um we're not four or six or eight or however many of them you know full-time students working on our master's thesis or whatever so we didn't have the time and the resources to dedicate to the mapping and all the you know the analysis they did or whatever but we will reference it but not really in any great detail because we just as volunteers and whatever we just don't really have the time to go into it a great detail but um you know I mean just from a high level view um I think it's okay to say this but you know uh a major point of agreement I think that we have with them is that we're not talking about like upzoning the entire city right I mean that's we're pretty much in agreement on that um I I made that statement at the first meeting and we all pretty much agreed with it so I don't think there was any dissent on that and the major point of not so much I don't mean to say disagreement but and what we're looking at is that their what they did is they took our bik and pedestrian plan and assumed it was unchangeable and tried to adopt their plan to it so they came up with a a dense bicycle friendly region that we really hadn't talked about um and I don't think anyone really proposed that so so that's a difference from us um I think you can have a lot of conversations about that my argument personally would be that we need we need to redesign our bik pedestrian plan which I know the the uh Transportation Commission that's part of their 2024 work work plan so I know they're working on that um so yeah there's more than one there there's multiple ways to address that and I think perhaps they didn't chose the best route for that um is that good any other questions on that yeah I think that's helpful CU I mean it seemed like a very well oh it was yeah presented plan and everything and so just I guess wanted to hear how parallel it was it seemed parallel like in at least geography and yeah there there were a lot of similarities um you know they don't live here so I think we have some perhaps more perspective than they do um but they you know we don't have master's degrees in planning either so there were some perspectives they had that that we don't and they certainly got into the analysis and Mathematics of such that we don't um so anyway that so that's it for the unless anything you guys want to contribute to that okay and the other big thing of course is the Lincoln and London Dair um small area plan unfortunately I got sick for the very first public meeting and I couldn't go which was I've been waiting like for years to do this thing right and I got sick so I couldn't but I I will ask commissioner felt to give a quick little report I asked her ahead of time to worry her on how that meeting went the meeting went great um we met at Wolf park I think there were about a hundred people there um we broke up into a bicycling group and a walking group and a staying back group and um city council was there and a couple of other Commissioners showed up and um kids were engaged and people were engaged and people gave a lot of feedback and they marked on the maps and they gave us notes and I think we're Gathering a lot of background material it was good that is that stuff I I don't know how you're going to share the or how you're going to compile and share the feedback is it going to be on Better Together somehow so we we have a steering committee meeting tomorrow so we'll probably be discussing those things at that so that was my my next point was that we had a steering committee meeting tomorrow to to discuss that with uh with all the members of the of the uh work plan um yep so I think stuff like that is really important to publicize I don't know if you know uh uh you know if you could share it on Better Together images photos just yeah you know just to really put it out there that this is how we're working together with Community to solve some of these big problems sure sorry maybe I wasn't clear so we we do have a Better Together site and we do have there's a mapping exercise on there and there's um you know uh uh you can just enter like a a text comment or whatever what you feel about it they have a number of questions there and then for the mapping part we have like um four things like transportation and um Recreation and two other things where you can put items on the map and then um either answer some questions or just leave some comments about what you want to see and anyone from Medina can do I guess anybody could do it but you know we want everybody from ad do it not just people in the neighborhood but of course you know it's important for people in the neighborhood um to to come on in that so yeah so the more that people can do it so yeah if you're out there um please go ahead and go on better together and look for Lincoln and London der and um there there are things there that we have today and then we're going to be building on that so another thing that we're going to be doing is so one of the and again I wouldn't say criticism but one of the things that was noticed that I heard um at executive committee meeting was that um for the first meeting was that uh even some of the neighbors were surprised that um you know kind of the age of the people that showed up so it was very heavy even though there's a number of young families in the neighborhood we didn't really get that they didn't come you know and so so what are we doing wrong how could we engage them more so for example we're looking at having popups in in July where we're trying to go to like a a a sports um activity you know in the neighborhood so neighborhood families would be going to that and have a pop up there and get people who uh you know live in the neighborhood but are younger than the people who come to the the things the city plans because that you know they have busy lives and so if we go to them rather than have them come to us it's an ability for us to reach out to more people and reach out to you know everybody who lives in the neighborhood rather than just people who maybe you're retired or whatever and have time to come to city meetings so and it is always the most difficult group to get when you feed your child and bathe your child and put them to bed between 6:00 and 8 they're not showing up at a public event um unless it's much earlier and before dinner time yeah it's a you know some cities do child care and whatever and we don't do that sort of thing but but which is why we have the interactive map yeah and we're going to have multiple pop it's not just going to be one we going to be multiple uh you know some we've already planned some would be like on the trail itself so people who are using the trail for example you know we could we could reach them which would be a mixture young people old people um kids whatnot so um it is absolutely our intent to to to reach as many voices you know which was part of our plan for how we chose the members of the committee was we wanted to get even though ad isn't super diverse you know trying to get as many people of of as many different ages and different housing types you know on the on the work group you just one thought and I and I think this neighborhood has a a magazine I think they publish a magazine um for that Community uh if you guys get in that magazine that would be awesome yeah it it's I think it's a four profit business actually but um you know kind of like a you know the newspaper and a diner that just went you know for pay or whatever um yeah we're we're working with the with the head of the Parkwood NES I mean she's she's part of the the committee so yes we're we're trying to reach out the Consultants are doing an absolutely excellent job staff is doing an excellent job it's really uh I'm very happy the only weird thing is that tomorrow we have an hour we have an hour for the city's dog and pony show about um what is that called did you look at the the what's happening tomorrow the uh we're having our monthly meeting for the working group and anybody is willing to um can go to it but is only the working group that participates in it right but and this is all un B better together there's an hour dedicated to repeating what happened at the the last meeting no no no no an hour is dedicated to I got to bring it up here where is it anyway I'll find it later um the city has some new thing they're going through um and they gave us a mar um like an Outreach sort of thing I mean uh not AJ uh MJ thank you um she's in charge of it so you know it's her pview but um we had a little taste of it at a previous meeting but there weren't a lot of a lot of people three members couldn't show up because they had pre-existing travel outside of the country or whatever couldn't change it um so they're doing it again and it seems like it was maybe 20 minutes last time and now it's an hour which just seems really strange so I'll reach out to staff and Consultants tomorrow and we don't have to solve this tonight I'm wonder if we can call if we can make a motion to close me meeting does anyone else have comments any more chair member comments staff just a couple of quick updates from the last council meeting they took action on the training facility they approved that and they also approved the Macy's project Macy's will still need to come back further their final approvals they put a number of conditions um revising the plans um sidewalks Green Space those those types of things um but it was approved very good and hopefully we see it happen motion to close second all those in favor say I the meeting's been adjourned thank you everyone see you next time time uh projects e